biscuit/plate joiner

[tahwos]

Has anyone explored the possibility of using a joiner to cut and grind the rails?

[Robert M]

Don't see any reason why nor the use of it VS a grinder !
Cost effectiveness and adaptability to jigs and cutting discs make this a none applicable option !
Hope this steers you ;)

[tahwos]

Discs do come in bore and diameter sizes that will fit joiners. That and the built-in fence made we wonder why it had not been tried, or at least not documented in some way.

[KenC]

You can try & let us know the outcome.
We will most appreciate the out come.

[darren salyer]

Seems the only ones looking for a better way are the ones who haven't tried the suggested way.:):)

[Mrayhursh]

It is a long and dirty job. I bought a couple grinders and I wasn't really happy with the way the plate had to be ground to mate the parts together. The idea of a couple of small screws holding this thing together is not ideal. I am concerned with safety. At age sixty and Type 2 Diabetic it takes a long time for me to heal (I guess I shouldn't be worried I have Obama Care). I would pay extra to have a part that was designed for a specific model of grinder and not design to be pieced together. I do not mean to be critical. There have been about 112 people that have done this task and completed it successfully. I just don't want to hear about one of our fellow builders getting hurt. Not all of us are engineers or have experience "hacking" things together. Mike and Darren both seem to be experienced shop type people other of us are not. I will be doing the dirty grind this week. My lower table is pretty near done and unless I decide to add more framing it is grind, grind, grind. Best of luck.

[darren salyer]

I apologize for seeming insensitive. I sometimes think if I can do something, obviously anyone can.

[KenC]

You can do away with grinding with pre-ground rails. but it does come with a higher cost.

#ps,
Metal working & any sort of workshop works always carry risk, do what you are familiar with to minimize accident. u can only minimize accident, nobody can guaranty accident free....

[tahwos]

My post had nothing to do with faith in the accepted method for grinding the rails, or the desire to find a better way. It's just simple curiosity - hand held joiners are basically angle grinders with the necessary hardware added, to increase their precision and ease of use. Most of them have an adjustable fence, with holes in them for handles or even mounting to another fixture.

I just wanted to know if anyone had tried to use one...

[smreish]

JR did try that back in the #3-7 machine build days which failed and developed into the skate we have today with many builders input and trial (Greg, Mr. Ford, Gerald, JR, me and a few others)

Best with your build.
Sean

[Tom Ayres]

Biscuit joiners are generally geared or turn slower. I wouldn't waste my time trying.

[Mrayhursh]

The current design, what grinder was it designed for? I bought a grinder and adapted it for the plate. I took it to ACE hardware and along with the help of the helpful hardware man I found screws that would hold it all together. After clamping down the rail I started grinding. After ten minutes the grinder started to come apart. No way, I have to find a better way(safer) to do this.
I think this is why people are asking is there a better way.

[Robert M]

Dear Hurshy

Please, DO NOT take this as a “personal” attack….O-contraire MM friend !
Philosophically….think about this….
I quote “I think this is why people are asking is there a better way”…..while if you look deeper, reality is….there is more success with the current used version… and by good “luck” ( although luck as not much to do with this) no injury as been reported !
Maybe there is a better way…..like many thing, we have to “be open” and look ahead…..maybe there is a better way and yours is respectable !
But…..as said and been written, it has been shown that a plate joiner is not as good nor safer than….what has been successful for the great majority, vs…..little to none reported ( with valuable facts) that the current solution is….well…darn dangerous and not good….O-contraire….too many reported Success !

Again….no attack, no pung….just my thought and trying to express in a friendly manner !
Amicalement, Robert ;)

[Mrayhursh]

good advise, is good advise

[rkd]

What brand of grinder did you use? I just recently completed this task myself. I used the cheapest Ryobi that Home Depot sells. I think it was 19.99 so I bought 2 expecting to replace it partway through. The plate fit exactly with no modification needed. I can't remember exactly what size screws I used. They were metric though, maybe M3? I just checked them several times while I was grinding. They never loosened though. I was expecting an awful, horrible job but it turned out to be very easy. The only safety thing I can see is maybe tack weld the guard on the back as I kept wanting to put my hand on the body I the grinder very close to the disk. I actually caught my glove several times. No big deal if using the sanding disks. Just my thoughts.

[tahwos]

Biscuit joiners are generally geared or turn slower.

No, they are not...


But…..as said and been written, it has been shown that a plate joiner is not as good nor safer than….

links?

[Mrayhursh]

There is no specific way to do most tasks to build the mechmate. If you wish to do it another way please feel free to do so. Just be safe. Tom is a master carpenter so his advise is pretty sound. We are all friends here in the forum and wish the best to all. Best of luck.

[Tom Ayres]

It may be a perceived speed thing but I do know that MY biscuit joiner doesn't try to rip my arm off when it comes in contact with the material for which it was designed. In reality, both operate at the same rpm but because the blade on the joiner is usually smaller than the grinding wheel the actual speed of the two are different, the joiner being slower and the grinding wheel faster (until it is worn smaller). Again the biscuit joiner is not designed for this application not that it couldn't do it, but why reinvent the wheel?

[tahwos]

It may be a perceived speed thing but I do know that MY biscuit joiner doesn't try to rip my arm off when it comes in contact with the material for which it was designed. In reality, both operate at the same rpm but because the blade on the joiner is usually smaller than the grinding wheel the actual speed of the two are different, the joiner being slower and the grinding wheel faster (until it is worn smaller). Again the biscuit joiner is not designed for this application not that it couldn't do it, but why reinvent the wheel?

They are normally the same size, and the reason it doesn't try to rip your arm off, is because it "IS" spinning so fast - in wood no less. The first hand held biscuit joiners, were angle grinders, stuck in a block of wood... It's a motor with a gear head and an arbor - they were designed for how they were held, then adapted by the way they were used.

I'm not trying to reinvent anything, I was just curious if anyone had tried. If I had known that it was going to get beaten to death by naysayers, without ever really being answered, I wouldn't have posted at all.

As for the assumption that I plan on using one... I have 2 mills and a surface grinder, I have no need to use either - as I said, I was just curious.

[KenC]

You would had read about the unsuccessful biscuit joiner if you had dig the forum seriously.
I personally welcome alternative, but not superstitious over them.
MM forum is not populated with naysayer, we are just being pragmatic.

BTW, If you are curious, why not you start working on your jointer & show us how u think it can be done? Instead of bashing us on our opinion?

[tahwos]

Ken,

I posted because I didn't find it...

I'm not the one doing the bashing, it's all the fanboy holy grail skate nonsense, that well, is kind of insulting. Someone else designed it for you, someone else told you how to use it, and obviously everyone is kind of partial to it... yay.

I asked if anyone tried to use a biscuit joiner, and all I got was, "NO, NO, NO, NO, YOU HAVE TO USE THE SKATE!!!!!"

But wait, I didn't ask what is the preferred method to grind rails - because I seriously searched the forum, and found tons of useful information about building a nice skate and grinding nice rails - not to mention the organized forum headers that kinda negate searching for accepted "anything".

Maybe some of you should go back and read your responses, and see how unhelpful, self absorbed and rude you were, before you pass judgment on the guy who got attacked for asking a simple question.

[smreish]

Okay.
I will defend my position on the post I replied to early on....
I didn't bash - I mentioned that the forum members that contributed to the development of the skate (JR, Gerald, Greg, Myself and others) all explored the option you asked about.

I even destroyed a perfectly good biscuit jointer myself trying.

So, when you say that "all I got was, NO NO, NO....." is patently false and gross exaggeration of the truth.

If you have done your homework on this site you say you have, you will find that I RARELY, if ever, chime into this personal banter.

Not all of us are rude and self absorbed.....If I was, I wouldn't have contributed to this forum for the years I have...but that could change, I'm getting older!

...think twice - write once.

[tahwos]

Sean,

Yes, you tried to be helpful... thank you.

[Mrayhursh]

Well, I just came in because it started raining, typical Tampa weather. I have been hacking on my skate. Went back to Ace hardware and got some better screws. I have dialed in the skate and I am reading to start grinding. Gave it a short trial run and tomorrow if the sky is clear I am going to see it I can cut all the rails. I looked at the plans and have two questions. What height are the rails to be cut. I remember something like 1.100. Also, What range of depth is the Mechmate meant to cut. I think that smersh of Orlando (DID I EVEN GET CLOSE). made a machine to cut foam and I was wondering if he had input. Later

[Tom Ayres]

I guess I was the trouble maker...oh well, you know what they say about opinions...all I was saying is that it has been tried, unsuccessfully, but if you have a couple of "mills and surface grinder" why bother? Most of us do not have such equipment (and don't care to) and some on tight budgets and like the idea of a tried and true method that's affordable AND do-able. That's why. nuf said.

[darren salyer]

I'm sure I'll be lumped in the trouble maker pool as well.
What I've noticed the most about the grinding, is that everyone (myself included) dreads it like the plague, to the extent of looking for a better way, only to bite the bullet, and then realize, it wasn't nearly as bad as expected.
As my Old Man said, "Don't fix what ain't broke."
That's what I tried to convey.

[Mrayhursh]

both of you go to your room, and no soup for you!

[KenC]

I should had just kept quiet & leave him to rot with his surface grinder, milling machine & the trusty biscuit jointer ....
Honestly wouldn't careless how people brand me...
Should had just say YES YES YES, ＩＴ　ＣＡＮ　ＥＶＥＮ　ＧＥＴ　ＹＯＵ　ＴＯ　ＭＡＲＳ.

[Tom Ayres]

Damned Yes Men..

[smreish]

Hurshy,
You found me. Sean here.
The #5 machine was built as a standard bed machine with 1st generation spider, 11" stroke z-slide and router on 8" channel sides. It was good for 3.5-4" standard depth cutting. Usually on that 3.5" depth when cutting foam letters.

Later in it's life it was adapted to a 48" z-slide and a 60" diameter 4th axis for really big 3d cutting.

When cutting down the rails, I found the ultra-thin kerf Stainless Steel cut of wheels the quickest for bisection of the steel angle.

I actually cut my rails down a 1/16" tall, then surface ground that flat, then profiled. Double check the drawing, the 1st generation motor swing plates and the now 2nd swing plates have slightly different swing points, so my rail height won't apply to your build.

[Mrayhursh]

I haven't finished my first machine, but I would really like to build a deep cut design. I wonder what needs to be changed to handle rigidity issues. The mechmate really is a well design machine. I began to form this opinion when I pieced together the z-axis tray. All the parts fit and interlocked forming a base for the z-axis. Well, I can't wait to get out there tomorrow and finish another task. One last thought on the Mechmate. It is a total sweat equity project. I now see why fellow builders have pride of ownership and I really appreciate their advise.

[smreish]

When you say "deep" and "rigidity" you bring up the question of how precise do you want to cut?

The machine is very rigid, but when cutting deep, your cutter, z-axis and other things are able to show vibration or "lack of tolerance" due to runout, bearing-to-z axis engagement and a bunch of other things that to most in the CNC wood and foam routing machines are "precise" enough.

I personally was able to get fantastic results with the 48" stroke z by just making a new spider with 2 more bearings at the top to keep the extended moment flex down.

How deep are you trying to go? Is it further than the extended stroke version of the machine?

[Mrayhursh]

Doesn't sound like I will have much problem. Adding the additional bearings is definitely a good idea. Making a longer z-axis won't be hard and adding the bearings is easy. All I have to do is find my spider. That thing has crawled into a corner and is hiding from me.:rolleyes:

[Tom Ayres]

Sean, are you using a total of 6 bearings or 8?

[Mrayhursh]

I know it is a little creepy but I wanted to make a couple coffins for Halloween. I watched a youtube video where a guy made custom coffins for people. fyi... where is the cheapest place to buy a coffin and have it delivered to your house, Walmart online.
I

[smreish]

Tom,
on the 48" slide I am using 8 on a custom, rebuilt spider.
On the standard and extended slide 6 like the normal

http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=25808&postcount=470

This picture on the link is missing the bottom 2 that were not installed at the time during my retractable spring set up.

[Mrayhursh]

Well after all my groaning and moaning I went out this afternoon and started grinding the x axis. It didn't take that long. It took more time to keep changing the disks. I ran out of disks and decided to leave the mosquitoes to them selves. I headed to Harbor freight for more disk. Tomorrow morning I will finish cutting and start drilling holes to mount the rail. I will warn any of you that will be doing this. Wear gloves and be careful of very sharp edges.

[Mrayhursh]

Well the mosquitoes let me finish cutting all the rails. I was able to run a 7 inch flapper disk over them a get a coat of paint on them. Hopefully tomorrow I will be able to drill and mount them.