Ron's Spin - MM inspired

[cab. guy]

Is this a mechmate?No it is not blue.No it does not have Vee guides.No it does not have rack & pinion Z axis.No it does not have the standard Frame and gantry.I have seen all of these mods done on numbered MMs.I would not have built this machine without Gerald and the contributers of this web site.To all of you, I hold my beer up high.I am not a heritic, so some of you please lower your matches.At the heart of this machine is the same popular tranformer,203vs ,122pmds,columbo spindal, oriental motors,4x1 gear boxes,e-trac,ect.Gentlemen I submit to you a mechmate-Ill be it slightly modified.Ive not posted on this web site the last few months for fear of the matches.LOL . The machine was modded because of its intended use.I am a cabinet maker in Idaho. The files I run are primarly sheet goods. Please note pop up pins,aux. 5mm drill.It also auto Zs and auto squares with pause included.By the way it works great!My purpose in posting now is to offer back what was affored me in the way help.I have possibly 30 photos and all build info to share with.Once again I would like to sincerly thank all the contributers to this and a special thanks to Gerald for keeping it running.

[Alan_c]

Ron, no matches, just applause - that looks very nice and very professional. That may look closer to a Multicam than a MechMate but still briliantly done.

Care to share the drawings and construction details?

ps I like the idea of the aux drilling head. lets have more details.

[Robert M]

Ron…
Nice but why not a MechMate since it is almost made for sheet goods !?
Although this machine of yours look mighty fine !
I’ll second Alan on you should share some highlights & build plans of your build so we can appreciate more of it, remember, we are DIY diehard guys, not just side watchers…. :D
Nice & clean work….congrad, Robert ;)

[Castone]

Very nice build , loading sheets will be a breeze on this baby.

[Richards]

Ron,
Beautiful job.

You've built a machine that has several additional "features":

- Linear rails w/blocks
- Belt-drive transmissions
- Vacuum System
- Non-wood vacuum plenum
- Air drill
- Pop Up pins

Would you care to post some photos of the edge quality of the cuts along with the depth and move speeds. (I've always wondered whether spending a small fortune on linear rails w/blocks would be the "one" major modification that would improve edge cut quality.)

[cab. guy]

Hi Alan, Good eyeball,I saw this older multicam table at a local sign co.It was simple massively rigid and of sound weight.Net table weight at aprox 1800lbs. If you elevate three of the four jack screws 1/16 of an inch,you will find the the fourth screw with
a 1/16 inch of air under it.(no discernible sag)It is a brick for all intent and purpose.The cycle time in hole drilling @ .75 sec. I can now sell my newer line boring machine.I would be happy to share any info you need.
Hi Robert,Thank you for the kind words.Ive cut signs, 6061 aluminum,cabinets and ect.Yes you are right, part of the build criteria was for sheet good convenience- thus table design ,pop up pins, aux drill.The heavier weight and stiffness of the table combined with linear guides afford us quick file times without giving up resolution.The true cost of electricity = How long does it take to get the files cut? In our case our cnc ,dust collection,10 hp becker pump x hrs. per month.

[cab. guy]

Mr. Richards,Thank you,I have read your posts over the last couple of years and found them to be quite helpful as well as inspiring.When I get back to the shop I will see If I can get some decent pics based on dxf specifications.Your comment regarding rail costs -yes expensive. 4x8 with x y z axis about $3,000 usd for thk brand. Hiwin would be much less with same quality. I'm using 25mm size all round.Your suspicion regarding cut quality, I believe to be true. Look at the contact surface per guide approx 4"? multiply x 4 per axis.This should help with harmonic dampening as well preventing up lift and downward force and of course side to side as well.Oh by the the way Mike ,how about those Boise broncos. This must surly draw fire! lol

[Alan_c]

Ron

How did you go about keeping the two main rect tubes square, parallel and in the same plane with all the welding required, and of course following on from that the mounting of the linear rails to ensure all is correct? I know when Multicam makes a machine like that they place it in huge oven to stress relieve it and then place the whole table on a monster milling machine to machine mounting areas for the linear rails and table panels, now I don't see a monster like that in your garage so what clever DIY system did you come up with? :)

[Richards]

Ron,

Your Broncos are running strong this year, but my Cougars are having a great season. When they get that last big win over the Utes, their pre-bowl season will be one of their best.

[cab. guy]

Alan, the beauty of working with 3/8 walled box tubing is that it is far less sceptical to movement during the welding process.I spent too much time in the welding process looking for movement yet not finding any.I had intended to bake the machine the machine after weld, but then realized that this specific build was not prone to stress movement, it was a consensus.It is true that most machines do need heat treatment because of the steel design.When I delivered the table to the monster milling machine, I was pleased to find I was within 1/64 " on plane prior to milling key-ways for rails. Thk rails from memory allow for .005 slop, I measured ours @<.001 The construct of the table was fairly easy using cynder blocks with a deck of playing cards for shims.I used a builder transit 30 feet back to reduce error in leveling beams.Moving the table? It was easy jack it up ,drive a flat bed trailer underneath it.I almost fogot the mill cost was $300.Heres a pic Alan.

[cab. guy]

Alan heres a few more pics.

[Claudiu]

Absolutely beautyfull.

Claus

[Alan_c]

Fantastic, keep them coming...

[cab. guy]

Hey Alan, Did you continue using auto square?I did not have much choice by my design.It works great,but hate giving up valuable inputs.You were right it takes two.You studied Alternative table designs ,what led you down that path?It would be nice to send higher res photos.If you were interested in the drill make -up ,I could share the parts break down & some better photos. cost about $500 for make-up.

[Alan_c]

Ron

No not using auto squaring yet - still dont have limits/proxies mounted :o - Doing manual squaring like Gerald describes - position car and gantry hard against the stops and switch on the drives (of course having made 100% sure that the gantry is square to the table and the stops are correctly adjusted) then do a G28 to take me to the 0,0 position.

With regards to table designs, no particular reason, but have always liked the Multicam design for the clean look and easy access to all sides of the table. Unfortunately that design does not lend itself to easy all over the world fabrication like the MechMate does - just getting the linear bearing mounting area milled in Cape Town would cost almost as much as the whole machine cost to build, never mind the exhorbatant cost of the linear rails and cars. However I see no reason why the MechMate rail system wont work on your table design - for the X axis at least. The Y axis has still got me scratching my head :p

More details on the drill arrangement will be much appreciated.

[cab. guy]

Alan,
I see practical challenges are a global problem.To limit cost and eliminate milling, a person could use I-beams with 25mm Hiwin brand rails as a direct mount on X axis with much success. This has been done many times.In fact Kevin L. account member built his that way.I bet I could get X axis rails and shoes for about $1300. Y axis could be vee rollers no problem.

There seems to questions about performance. My steel gantry complete weighs 400lbs +/- 5lbs. The pinion gears are 1.5 diametrical pitch. The transmissions are 4 to 1. With a pk299 motor (OM) accel to 35 inches per sec. With pk2913 up to 65 inches per sec before misstep. Its very fast.Most of my f speed is at 500 inches for normal work.

Here are some more pictures of the Z head. If you decide that you want to move forward on this I can get you part #s and dimensions to save you time.The air solenoid uses 12vdc. drill is IR .

[Besser]

I like the foot/leg arrangement. White is a nice finish till it gets not white.

Finally, how do you perform sheet loading??

[cab. guy]

Besser,

My Australian brother, The only real football, is played here in America by 32 NFL teams.I personally honored your country by naming my machine TAZ short for tasmanian devil, you know (Sarcophagus Harisii).I m personally beside myself that you did not acknowledge this great honor to your beloved state icon.Alright enough teasing.

Color is a slave to function. Easy sheet loading is done by using a rolling table loaded with sheet goods along side a machine.Sheet by sheet is then slid onto the table as you would slide cards from a deck. The then sheet good would contact the pop up pins for exact location.retract the pins start file.

[cab. guy]

Mike,
We strive to get better given the deck were served,good luck go cougars.

Hey can you forward suggestions on what performance tests would be helpful for comparison use. Mdf? type of bit? tool path? feedspeed? It was an after thought .Thanks Ron.

[Gerald D]

Ron, I would suggest that you turn the gas spring "upside down". . . . there is a little bit of oil in the barrel and it needs to lie against the neck seal for it to be of any use.

[Besser]

Mate, us Ozi's dont need sissy padding when we play football ( something about hitting a player and hearing his ribs break that makes Ozi rules tough) and we also kick the ball alot unlike your game, maybe we could call yours....chasy chasy or tiggy. I do follow Tampa Bay Buccaneers (since I was 6), god knows why, they sux.

As to that Tasy Devil, it's the state icon for Tasmania not my state. They're unfortunately almost dying off due to an extreme facial cancer that seems to spread like a virus. You may need to adjust your logo. (Have I got ya steaming yet? mate just working you up, I love you yanks)

Australia has heaps of deadly animals both on the land and in the water to pick from. My favorite is the whitepointer shark seconded by the man-o-war jellyfish, they say you should smile whenever meeting these cos you never will again. Just coming into snake season now so the browns and blacks will be happy to kill ya before you can get in the water. I've always wondered, if a black snake swallowed a redback spider, would the snake die as quickly as a human would if bitten by the same type redback spider? You see wrestling crocs is childs play downunder.

http://s994.photobucket.com/albums/af63/mrrberger/?action=view&current=WelcometoAustralia.jpg

Great White (yes they can pick you out of a boat, tourists laugh when I warn them not to hang over board)
http://www.nwf.org/NationalWildlife/images/102007/Great_White_Shark_ON07.jpg

Bluebottle (our local name for it)
http://www.aboututila.com/Photos/AdamLaverty/Creature-Portuguese-Man-o-War-02.JPG

Australian Snake (the following is a great bedtime read)
http://www.abc.net.au/science/slab/shorter/story.htm

Redback Spider (always check your shoes are empty in the morning)
http://www.csiro.au/resources/Redback-Spiders.html

[Besser]

Have a nice trip

http://s994.photobucket.com/albums/af63/mrrberger/?action=view&current=WelcometoAustralia.jpg

[Alan_c]

Yes, Oz is full of some mean creatures, and their wildlife is pretty scary too :D

[cab. guy]

Besser,

Behold, A picture of the great American bull.Feared and admired around the world.As you approach he thunders causing women to faint and children to seek cover.You never stare him down , for he is no ordinary bull,many a matador have been claimed.We brave American men saddle up and ride these beast daily.There not much for jumping ,but they do carry on with much speed.On occasion we ride two up,I tell the passenger not to lean to far off the side,as they could be struck by an oncoming herd.They too think I'm joking ,but that would require a sense of humor.:)

[cab. guy]

Gerald ,
Your are correct , and its exactly this kind of incompetence that I find intolerable.The problem I have is that at.75 cents an hour I'm not sure who to replace myself with?

[Besser]

Nice ride!

[Besser]

Those pods look like they could hold a lot of bootleg.....ON ICE!

[cab. guy]

4 six packs to be exact.

[Besser]

WOW that's perfectly balanced to the distance one tank of Gas will get you. Some very intelligent design going on there!

Thought of fitting an Automatic Tool Changer to your table?

[vishnu]

Hi Ron,

Nice machine, can you post some videos of your machine. whats the size of the huge tube that has been used and what was the budget of your machine.

[Fox]

Hi Ron,

I would love to see more build pictures of your interesting 'stepchild' if you have any ?

Also; would you give some insight (pointswise) on why ( in your opinion ) you choose your mechmate/multicam inspired design over the 'standard' mechmate ( with the same mods ) ?

In other words; what are your major motivations, because I assume it has cost your more time (and money) then it would when opted for a 'standard' build with the same mods.

And last but not least; do you have any comments on your cut quality/speeds compared to a real Multicam & what did you save budget wise with your approach?

Thanks for your answers !

[cab. guy]

Besser ,
I had toyed with the idea of ATC modification.As a cabinet maker 95% of what I mill are sheet goods.The additional $4,000 usd for a handful of bit changes did not prove to be a prudent expense.By the way a machine in my business that can cut straight lines as a saw, line bore holes for shelf clips then dado these pieces,ready for fabrication saves me between $100-$150 per hour, let alone the curve work. A friend of mine paid off his $200,000 cnc in two years doing the type of work.He bought a second one.

[cab. guy]

Vishnu,
Thank you, Perhaps some videos in the future.The large rectangular tubing beams are 6x 12inches 10 feet x3/8 wall 450lbs each.$ 16,000-$17,500.To put it in prospective if you were to buy a shopbot alfa machine delivered and installed with these options it would be almost double this price ,with a discount on performance.Let me say this design is specifically (light medium duty) for production use.

[cab. guy]

Hi Fox,
The primary reason for this design was for ease of access.As a cabinet person we handle alot of 4x8 foot sheet goods.Three years ago I contacted shopbot to find out if they would be interested in building a light medium duty (2,000)Lbs. or above for cabinet makers.They were disinterested.At that time, most machines were under $20.000 or the other extreme of $100,000on up.I was looking for something in between.I spent two years in research looking at different designs trying to be as objectively fair as I could.There is no perfect machine. They all have pluses and minuses.To critique multicam 4 to10years back ,They were very lacking in speed as were most expensive cncs at that time.All proprietary equipment.Overpriced. Tech service $$$$ will kill you. The newer model 3000,5000 are more productive.There old style base frame ,the best Ive seen of all. It was Simple, heavy, and does not want to flex.Ive got friends that have Shopbots ,technos,omnitechs,multicams here locally.The more expensive cut a little faster ,but I don't see a difference in the cut.

[Fox]

Hi Ron,

thanks for the answers, I understand where you are coming from.
Love to see some more (detail) pics of your build !

[cab. guy]

Fox, Ive pretty much laid this lady bare, Is there a particular area of interest that you would like to zoom in on?

[Fox]

Hi Ron,

You opened with a quote of "30 pics" and sofar I counted 18 :rolleyes:

Just kidding; if you have some pics of:

- the table construction between main beams below crossbeams
- Vacuum system routing inside table ( i'm puzzled how you created the vacuum, or are you sealing your spoil board somewhere ?)
- overall pics from a different standpoint
- top details of your vacuum table

That would be great....

Sidenote:
Some pics are probably perfectly clear for you as an owner (hey, you can dream this thing by now, I imagine); but for me it's hard to see how made your construction from some angles.
I am orienting on a Mechmate build, and regularly browsing the forums to get a decent background on all the various bits and pieces, before I start to build.
I am also looking in all mods done by different people on this forum, to understand why they did them, and to see what I would like to incorporate for my purposes.
Your stepchild is an interesting blend.

[cab. guy]

Hi Fox, Here is a couple more pictures underneath.What is your purpose for your build job?If its for business production you might want to design a machine to your own specific needs.The machine that I'm using was designed for cabinet work,for the ease of loading 4x8 sheets on and off the table.All electronics are on board,this means that I can move it anywhere in the shop and in five minutes have it up and operating by plugging into a different outlet.All the motors, drives , control board,mach3 software are mechmate.In fact anybody that can operate a mechmate can run this machine.Its not like a mechmate its identical, the only difference is TABLE and GANTRY design that is far better suited for people who commonly work with sheet goods.:rolleyes:

[bradm]

Ron, thanks for sharing those images. They are more helpful than you might think to others trying to sort out design options.

[cab. guy]

Hi Brad, what is it that your trying to accomplish with your build? What will you use it for?

[bradm]

Ron, I'm a hobbiest, I do this to keep me out of bars. Actually, at the moment I'm on a train at 75MPH running down the US east coast - work always interferes.

My MM (#10) is up and running, upgraded to a chinese spindle, and I'm playing with both vacuum hold-down, and with Google sketchup to produce the snap-together geometry from the MIT architecture research that led to Physical Design Co. (Check out the work of Lawrence Sass and his team if you're interested in the background).

I meant to release my Sketchup to Gcode plugin some months ago, but then the fall busy season happened, so it's delayed.

In the meantime, I cut ornaments for our Xmas tree, and other small toys for the kids when I can, and I try to give helpful comments based on my build and theatre experience. In this case, I was just appreciating the very practical and well thought out design work.

[cab. guy]

Brad,If I can be of any assistance to your vacuum hold down concept,feel free to pm.
Larry sass and co. sound a little like Frank lloyd Wright philosophy.Got to love the days when our youth were creative,inspired and excited about thinking outside the box.(One small step for a man,One giant leap for mankind).

[Gerald D]

. . . . better suited for people who commonly work with sheet goods. . .

We have a couple of MM's lined up side-by-side, thus "side" loading is out of the question. It is easy to get used to "end" loading, but then you do need the space at the end.

When you are in the habit of end-loading, the risk of bumping the gantry is minimal - I guess the side-loaders have to be a lot more cautious about bumping the gantry? We don't have problems with using unskilled labour to do the end-loading.

If I was inclined to do a MM design for side-loading, I would think of lowering one side only . . . . .

[cab. guy]

Hi Gerald,Here's a couple of pictures that might better explain this design.I spent a few years powerlifting and I am in good health.The exercise of lifting material is not a issue.Still the balance of the commercial shop as you well know, requires a intelligent and efficient shop layout to be competitive and hope we say,profitable.Although each shop may differ from one another,commonly we all love convenience.
These pictures show how easy it is to not lift,but to slide the sheets from the truck to the cart,then to the machine.The gantry is never in the way,as it automatically homes to the far end of the table after each file cut.
Regarding the design, after cut, the parts are easily accessed from each side ,without the effort of stretch.From my shops point of view,I don't know how to make it any easier.My only real complaint, is the refusal of the parts to assemble themselves.http://www.mechmate.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

To consider a raised rail design for our use.The drawback would require end loading only.Because our parts are spread throughout the table,how do we efficiently remove those parts? Would we start by removing parts from end (a) ,leaving the gantry parked in the center, then walk around the back of the machine to remove those parts?Do I stretch to reach the parts left under gantry,or do I choose to move the gantry again to expose those parts left in the center and dare risk taking those parts over the raised rails with more obvious concerns.This table design is only a 4x8 footprint .If I had chosen a larger, say 5x12 foot table, these issues would be compounded.http://www.mechmate.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif

[Gerald D]

Ron consider having about 200 sheets of 9' x 6' in stock, about 15 varieties in colour, thickness, type stacked on edge in a "library". Opposite the stacks are 4 MM's side by side with 0,0 home away from from the stacks. In this scenario I see no benefit of lowered side rails. Anyway, I hadn't meant to argue one style over another . . . . this is the MechMate site and it is a lot different to what you built. Your following statements were way off the mark:

Its not like a mechmate its identical, the only difference is TABLE and GANTRY design that is far better suited for people who commonly work with sheet goods.:rolleyes:

Let's not get into a contest about that here, because then I'll pull the plug on this thread. Come to think of it, I'll probably pull the plug anyway - this thread is not helpful to people who want to build MechMates.

[Gerald D]

This thread now closed and archived.

[cab. guy]

Gerald, I think you misunderstand,#44 response was a answer to repeated questions above, regarding modifications in table design as to the benefit of panel processing as it applied to my shop specifically.All I conveyed were the questions that I personally faced that led me down this path.
As I pm you 2 weeks ago, I'm neither here to sell or steal,I'm merely giving back to interested parties any information that might be helpful in there build jobs.Its clearly understood that this is your website.Many of the members helped build this site,by adding resourced information,to them is also owed a debt of gratitude.The area of the forum (Anything not directly connected to constructing mechmate cnc)was the area you put me in.If you genuinely feel that I am harming this forum let a group of my piers judge me.I ask that until which time ,that you would reinstate the thread Red headed step child,that I might offer assistance to someone else who has helped me.

[Gerald D]

Thread re-opened for a while.

The uniqueness of MechMate lies in its gantry, y-car and z-axis designs. This website was created because of people wanting to copy what I had built for myself. The downloadable plans from this site focus 99% on the mechanics of the machine and replicates something that I had built and tested for myself. The forum is intended as a tool (maybe "handbook"?) of conveying the gaps in the plans to someone who wants to get my mechanical design to a fully running condition.

The absolute emphasis of the design embodied in the plans is low-cost, low-skilled DIY build, with common tools, in most countries, with easily available materials & components, producing acceptable production cut quality for wood-based boards. Every "improvement" that is suggested/tried by builders is simply checked against the aforementioned criteria before it is considered for adding to the plans. The plans have remained mostly unchanged.

Ron, your build did not use any significant part of the MechMate mechanical design. You did use this forum to build your control system, but that doesn't give you rights to claim that you built a "MechMate". You are actually knocking the basic MechMate design and saying that it wasn't good enough for you. You are entitled to your opinion, but please find another place to say that. It doesn't matter what your peers may think - it is entirely my personal decision whether I am going to allow this forum to become another CNCzone, or whether I am going to tighten up on what goes in here.

[Gerald D]

. . . . I'm merely giving back to interested parties any information that might be helpful in there build jobs.

I checked through this whole thread again and I find very little that is going to help other standard MechMate builders.

You may argue that this guy Experimental hybrid MechMate – Tehran, Iran (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2189) is also not building a true MechMate, but read through his thread and see his tips on grinding rails, drilling/tapping holes and general approach to work in a country where tools/materials are limited.

[skypoke]

I'm always impressed with the number of folks, many from less industrialized areas than the US where any tech is readily available, who are able to pull off the construction of one of these fabulous machines. It also seems that once the machine is built that they tend to actually use it to their economic benefit. I'll go out on a limb here and say there are basically two styles of cnc builders....those who build for the joy of it and those who see it as a means to an end. Nothing wrong with either approach, but the fact that the end product result of the easily sourced parts + some elbow grease is so much greater than the cost indicates truly elegant design to me. Anyone with enough money can buy linear guides.

I'm guilty to a certain extent of gearheadedness, tinkering and "improvement." However, having a machine that takes up half the shop forced me to turn my thoughts to potential products that would leverage the production abilities of the device. Based on past experiences, and qualified by the difficulty and repetition of hand production, I believe I have identified just such an item. I fully expect to sell >$100K , easily, in the coming year at an embarrassingly good profit margin as a very much part time business. The item is precise, very time consuming to build with non cnc equipment, and high value in relation to materials consumed. There is absolutely nothing limiting in the design of the Mech, it will cut as quickly as I can load various parts stations along the 20' table and accuracy is far from being an issue.

Hats off to the creator of the "Red Headed Step Child", it's a fine looking piece of equipment. While not nearly as snazzy looking in comparison, I'll define the value of my Mech by what it can do for me financially. I recognize that in the Man and Machine relationship that I am the weak link. When I can program as efficiently as the machine can cut I'll start looking at improving the machine. Don't see that happening anytime soon.

Preemptive apologies to anyone I've offended.

Chuck

Thursday 17 November: Thread finally closed and archived - GD