Tilting or hide-away MM? limited floor space

[Mike94531]

Due to other projects and tools, my floor space is limited, yet I'd like a decent sized table...

so, I was thinking, what about making an MM that once done with it for the day, I can remove the YZ bridge and tilt the table up on its side to gain my floor space back somewhat?

[ChiknNutz]

Anything's possible with enough ingenuity (and money :-)

[Mike94531]

I figured out a spot in the garage that I can move some shelving on my single garage portion of my garage.

Now to start hunting down material and go thru what I currently have laying around.

[Medemt]

Mike,

If you can pull this off, I am extremely interested. I just built a new workshop and would hate to tear into it again to make room for a MM. This is another reason I have not committed to making one yet. I know there are designs on the market that are angled units.

I was kind of toying around with sitting down on my ACAD and seeing how I could come up with a design to do this.

Please make a post of any drawings or sketches you may come up with.

Dan

[TheDave]

I think you could come up with a decent design without spending a lot of money. However, you need to consider the time you will spend setting up your table every time you "untilt" it so you can use it.

What is the accuracy you want out of the machine? You may find that for your tolerances you can spend 5 minutes leveling the table every time you want to use it. Or if you discover you need much more accuracy it may take 15 minutes, or an hour, to level and square the table.

An idea I had once was to bolt one c-channel of the mech mate table to the wall and have the opposite side of the table free-standing. This way I could remove the gantry and slide the legs against the wall when not in use. But I gave it up when I realized how much work would go into aligning everything and then somehow holding it in place while the table operates.

I'd love to see you come up with this kind of design - I'm always secretly hoping someone will devise a really simple method I could use to get some floor space back!

[Gerald D]

You may find that for your tolerances you can spend 5 minutes leveling the table every time you want to use it. Or if you discover you need much more accuracy it may take 15 minutes, or an hour, to level and square the table.

For cutting boards, "level", or even some "twist" of the table top makes little difference. The board just follows the table.

(Twist becomes a problem when the gantry starts to rock and all 4 wheels no longer seat firmly.)

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that precise setting up, after a move, will seldom be needed.

[MAC2009]

Large telescopes are home made all the time 20+ dia. mirrors 12' + length.
They are built with a truss system that is remove able and put together tin 5 to 15 minuets with a lot closer tolerances then needed with the mechmate.

The Idea is to make sockets for the legs to be installed repeatedly.
one side or both and stow the table or hinge it to the wall and let it swing down leaving wall space above it.

Some sort of latches to hold the gantry and another set for the car holding then in place when stowed will save on connection.


If you search AM telescopes, Tri-Dob telescopes, San Fransisco sidewalk Astromers,

http://www.bbastrodesigns.com/trilateral.html this is good start

I will also be working on this and hope to post some drawings, at some time!


MAC

[Allegheny]

Has anyone ever tried hoisting a finished MM up to the ceiling? I have thought about this for my garage as the only space left in there is where my wife parks her car.

Unless you have really high ceilings, I guess you would need to minimize the height of the gantry/y-car/z-slide (move the z-axis beyond the edge of the spoilboard and do a maximum depth plunge), and possibly make the leg system removable. There are some very precise lift systems out there, so it should be doable.

Brian

[servant74]

I have thought of making shorter legs, so it would be lower. If you can hoist it,
you can raise it and have more clearance below.

When I first started looking at the MM, Gerald responded to a message indicating he was thinking about making a 'short table' that could be higher
and could possibly go 'over the bonnet' (hood, for us in the USA) when the car was pulled in the garage. I also thought about just building one 'taller' and put at one end of the garage, but modify the table so the hood could be pulled under the side. .... Working and storage in a confined space like this could have its own issues.

I have also thought about doing one like a 'Murphy Bed', where the major portion of the table would 'fold up', but a short amount of the table would stay 'flat' so the Y axis trolly could 'roll away' to be able to 'fold away' the base part of the bed.

One problem, and I think Gerald would concur, is when you reduce the mass of the base, you increase the probability if the base moving under the stresses of running the router. On the base, more mass is good, some mass on the Y axis and Z axis trolleys is good, but to much is bad. Lower mass Z axis is better (but still needs to be rigid enough to keep tollerance).

Just a few thoughts.

[Allegheny]

Jack,

I agree, the more massive the base, the better the dampening. Bolting the legs to the floor has this effect. One could also build the main X-beams from rectangular tubing and fill them with lead shot after all the various holes are drilled and tapped. For that matter, even the table cross beam supports, diagonal braces and even legs (using tubing, obviously) could be filled with something (lead, concrete, sand, etc.) for an all out effort to increase mass. Of course, that would make hoisting it to the ceiling that much more difficult (in terms of engineering the ceiling to support the additional weight).

Brian

[bfauska]

What about no legs, so it sits on the floor and then you could put some anchors in your shop/garage floor and bolt it in place when you use it then unbolt and hoist it out of the way when you aren't using it?

Still build the "Table" but no legs or braces, this way you get more clearance when you hoist it and the whole mass of the floor keeps is sturdy.

[Allegheny]

Brian,

Bolting the table directly to the floor would theoretically work. I suggest that you'll need to budget for chiropractic treatments, however.

Brian

[TheDave]

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that precise setting up, after a move, will seldom be needed.

Wow, I just had an epiphany while moving my drill press last night, and realized that I never worry about the drill press table. Now I understand what you are saying!!!!

Hmmm, now I will really consider the fold-away table! Redesign for me at this point is not a big deal since the table is the only thing I've built so far.

[lumberjack_jeff]

It'd be intriguing to think about a MechMate placed against a wall with the workpiece vertical. A 48" x 96" machine could be built with a roughly 120" x 30" footprint. If you move the y-carriage up out of the way when not in use, the machine only takes up 20" of floor space. Small enough to fit in most garages without evicting the car.

A good vacuum system (or at least securely screwing the workpiece to the "table") would be a requirement, I guess. But the other engineering challenges seem doable. The z-spring is gone - replaced with a y-carriage counterweight, and the gantry vertical load could be carried by wheels at the top.

[lumberjack_jeff]

The more I think about this, the more I like it. The X-beams need not be so massive because the table becomes one big I-beam with one side supported by the floor. Additionally, the gantry doesn't need to be quite so massive either, because the tube span only needs to deal with cutting forces and not gravity.

Benefits; No debris under the workpieces, simpler to load and unload(?), easier access to all parts of the working area, much smaller footprint, lighter gantry and table.
Disadvantages: gravity encourages finished parts to fall off the table.

I think the biggest construction/design challenge would be preventing/providing for adjustment of twist in the table, but that could be addressed by an adjustment built into the wall attachment hardware.

Hmm. I need to do some drawing.

[lumberjack_jeff]

Here's what I'm thinking. Obviously, there are some big topics which still need to be drawn, most notably, how to keep the y-car from falling on the floor. :eek:

[Claudiu]

Hi Jeff,
think about linear rails. They could be easily bolted to gantry and also fixing the Y Car with its four sliders.
Greetings
Claus

[lumberjack_jeff]

That is a really good idea Claus. Place them between the gantry rails?

[Claudiu]

Jeff, you mount them simply centered on the gantry tube where you would mount the handmade rails.
The sliders have to be attached where your rollers on the Y Car are now with angle iron.
Advantage is that the sliders dont come off the rails, no matter what position they´re mounted.
Rack has to mounted on a flat profile which comes between racks and gantry tube, leaving gantry tube sideways to carry rack or maybe skrew racks directly onto welded nuts on side of gantry tube. Thats just for a quick brainstorm ...:)
8043
Something like this. (it.s just a 5 min sketch)

[oopz]

Hi All !!

For me who are building a wall mounted SLANTED BASE this above IS interesting ( about linear rails ) but not the BIG issues in my build (I'm building 2 different bases and also 2 different machines). The solution IS VERY INTERESTING but I can from my perspective not see the drawback with Gerald's basic design. (Even in Slanted position) YES linear rails .. it gives same extra benefits which do not come off the rails for free, no matter what position they are mounted. BUT with V-Groove and the R&P what do not follow etc.. THE "problem" with "breaking the car" still reminds. A good working functional counter weight is 1 thing... then right motors and 2 of them plus motion on both sides. Thats where I will start.. maybe wrong but its a start.

And ooohh yes the base itself is an other then original.. :)

/oppz

[Gerald D]

A constantly energised DC motor can be used as the "counterweight"

[lumberjack_jeff]

Pretty darn nice 5 min sketch. :)

[riesvantwisk]

I don't have any idea on making a vertical/angled CNC machine (I never have seen one even) but can't you not make the table and the legs separately ?

Then when you don't need the MM you basically lift the table and put it on a shelf (still horizontally). The MM legs you keep it on the floor and you can use them to make a working bench from it.

When you need the MM you basically lift it back on the legs and work from there.
Lifting the MM can be done with a simple pulley and a swing/role armature.

This way you don't have to re-invent the wheel, but still beable to work on limited space.

I hope I made myself clear...

Ries

[Claudiu]

I would`t like knowing that half a ton of steel is dangling from the ceiling above my head, or my car, or my family....:confused:

[Johannescnc]

I would`t like knowing that half a ton of steel is dangling from the ceiling above my head, or my car, or my family....:confused:
That was also my initial thought... :eek: But I do like the idea of a wall mounted or leaning design for those who have limited space. But in my opinion, will not be a MechMate...

[riesvantwisk]

Claus,

I am not saying you need to keep hanging in chains, or keep hanging it But if you build a little floor out of metal then this can be strong enough to hold the top part of the MM, which I don't think is 500Kg. But even then People build complete bathtubs, concrete structures on second floors so it can be done safely.

Obvious, for everybody it would be very nice to have a wall mounted or leaning design MM....

Ries

[normand blais]

Spacesaver an example vertical almost
http://www.axyz.com/sys/router/spacemaker/
http://www.enseignesbp.com/nos-realisations/decoupe-et-fraisage-numerique-et-lettrage-vinyl/ light duty.


http://www.google.com/patents?id=5DkNAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA2&dq=camtech&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=4#v=onepage&q=&f=false for more info

[servant74]

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=5311

How about the thought of using a basic panel saw design. Not suggesting it but there is a picture of a DIY panel saw that might be used as a basis for a type of design of a wall CNC table... Might also think of doing one that could 'tilt further' to be more toward horizontal if that might be more convenient.

Just some more thoughts.

[domino11]

This sounds like it is drifting to a whole new design.

[riesvantwisk]

http://www.google.com/patents?id=5DkNAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA2&dq=camtech&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=4#v=onepage&q=&f=false for more info[/QUOTE] <== Did laugh my pants of with that one :D These people tried to patent the counter weight, I though that software patents where crazy, but aparently you can get a patent on gravity :D

[normand blais]

more like lack of it

[Gerald D]

Read the patent claims carefully - that patent is based on a pneumatic counterbalance for the weight. (Page 9 line 32, left column)

[riesvantwisk]

you guys are right, I didn't read the complete claim, just the first part and did draw my conclusions.

my bad...

Ries

[rayditutto]

how does the counterbalance claim differ from the gas shock on the Z-axis?

the counterbalance claim addresses compensating for the effects of gravity on the toolhead however, gravity also affects the workpiece
i expect one would need to compensate for that also

/robin

[lumberjack_jeff]

Very interesting Ries. It looks as if they are using air pressure to provide the "counterweight"

on edit: oops, I should have read the other replies.

[Gerald D]

how does the counterbalance claim differ from the gas shock on the Z-axis?

The pneumatic counterbalance is a small part of their claim. Their whole claim must be read in totality and that is describing a very different machine to a standard horizontal table router.

[normand blais]

Sorry for drifting:) anyway vertical machine come up every once in a while in forums and camtec space maker is an existing machine .cheking for their pattent is because I am curious .I would get a bigger place instead of that .Unless I wanted to put in a store window for people to see . I gess they dont want other to build vertical tilting machine with that pressure compensating valve from NUMATICS or other company .I always tough it was hydraulic.
Maybe it would work for very long z drive? see I am drifting again
Normand

[Gerald D]

Quite common for big machines . . .

A typical solution for loooong z-slides is a pneumatic cylinder, adjustable pressure regulator and a compressor.

[normand blais]

wow :o like power steering ... with air would work horisontal to I gess ? on a lathe

[oopz]

A constantly energised DC motor can be used as the "counterweight"

- its time (next week) to get same more info about (the elevator technology ??..) and realize the above ....OR use an "old fashion" counterweight solution ..no :(:p

SEYA
/oopz

[liaoh75]

A constantly energised DC motor can be used as the "counterweight"

Can anyone explain what this means? I assume it means a standard DC motor appropriately sized would have a rack and pinion setup like the stepper on the Y-car (on the opposite side of the stepper) but would be persistently energized to conter the force of gravity pulling the Y-car to the base bottom of a vertically mounted Y axis. However, wouldn't the motor windings burn out if the Y-car stayed stationary for a long time? Please correct me if my assumptions are incorrect. Thanks in advance.

[riesvantwisk]

Your assumption is correct, it's just a DC motor holding teh z up.

The motor would not burn if it's suitable for the job.

As per comparison: my stepper motors arrached to the z-plate doesn't have the spring yet, but the stepper holds the whole z-plate + router up perfectly, constantly energized!

Ries

[liaoh75]

Ries, thanks for the clarification.

[riesvantwisk]

David,

I wanted to add that not any DC motor is just suitable. DC motors are designed for rotational workload generating a airflow through the engine. If yo want to use a DC motor to do this sort of work, you properly need to upscale it so that the mass of the engine is enough to coil the coil down enough.

Ries

[Johannescnc]

A constantly energised DC motor can be used as the "counterweight"

I think what Gerald meant was that a "constantly energized Stepper motor" could act as a "counterweight"...
but that is just my understanding :rolleyes:

[Gerald D]

Nope, I meant a DC motor. All DC motors will tolerate a certain amount of current before they need cooling. Motors used as "servo" motors should publish the constant current and peak current values......it is the constant current value that is of interest for this application.

Think of the z-axis on a "servo"-driven router. . . . . it sees little movement/cooling.

[liaoh75]

Ok, got it. How would one size such a motor? Would it be based on the weight of the entire Y-car after it was mounted to such a slated table? Would this be a better solution than a counter weight contraption like the "Pullman Industrial Balancer" sold by McMasters mentioned in another post? I believe that post is here for those who have no idea what I'm talking about http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18959&highlight=counter+weight+spring#post18959

[Johannescnc]

Nope, I meant a DC motor.

OK.. I stand corrected. but in my opinion a counter weight would make more sense... as in an elevator.

[Gerald D]

A counterweight would have to run on its own rails (it can't swing around like a pendulum from the moving carriage)..........or slide with a good fit inside the gantry tubes........

[Johannescnc]

yes! and since this would be a slanted design it could be placed in what would normally be the under side of the machine...
But also I think it would have to be very heavy to counter the Z carriage... :cool: