Cutting the angle iron down with CerMet tipped circular saws
 

Moved from another thread:

David,

Take a look at the Steelmax saw or the Morse Metal Devil. I looked at it following GregJ's suggestion and ended up buying one off eBay for a hundred bucks. You will simply not believe how well it works. It cuts 1/4 inch steel like butter. It is a fairly simple matter to rig up a jig to cut the rail down straight and then grind.

It is one of those "how did I ever get by without that????????" tools.

Check it out!

David,

I second that. I couldn't grind a V edge to save my life, but cutting a straight, flat edge with a steel cutting "skill" saw was a piece of cake.

Marc -

I gave in and purchased one of the SteelMax circular saws from ebay. I managed to find an almost new one for $34 + $40 shipping. Thanks for the advice!

david

Update - I couldn't get 2"x1.25" angle from my steel supplier so I purchased a SteelMax circular saw as recommend by Marc and will setup a jig to cut it (hopefully) straight.

David,

I bolted a 1"x1" angle to the bottom of the saw. Use it as a rip fence.

Yep....drill two holes one size, larger size in the mating angle and bolt up parallel to blade. The better the set up...the better the end result.

I think the saw gives a bigger risk of cutting the rail down too far. If something goes wrong, the jig should rather force the saw to go wider rather than narrower.

At the end, I would still use the grinder (with a thick disk) to get the final finish of the reference line.

http://www.mechmate.com/Forum/messages/11/3802.jpg

Cutting the angle iron down with a Steelmax, MetalDevil, Evolution or Triton TCT saw
 

Cut from another thread:

Here was the breakdown for my rails:

* Build the skate: 2 hours
* Cut the rails (35ft) with the SteelMax circular saw - 20 minutes
* Grind the rails (35ft) with the skate -2 hours
* Trip to home depot to replace dead grinder - 1 hour

Did you attach a rip fence to the bottom of the saw or make a jig?

Interested how you cut the rails.

Thanks,
Greg

David,
I am interested in your steel cutting saw setup as well. Pictures would be great. Did you cut to exactly the height you wanted or did you leave a little extra to grind with the skate to the exact height? :)

The SteelMax saw has a rip fence with it. I just measured out carefully and then did a test run on another spare section of angle iron. I really can't imagine another, faster and accurate method based on the cost and time. The finish was nearly perfect - no burrs, gouges, etc. It also only cost me 70$ USD off ebay (including shipping). I called the company to give a testimonal and they even sent me an extra $45 blade. Highly recommend the SteelMax saw - you'll surely find use on this project and I'm sure other projects later.

There really wasn't much to it - that's why I didn't even take photos. I simple put one leg of the angle (after it was cut down) into the vice, then setup the rip fence on the SteelMax saw and then ran down the length of the angle with slow and steady pressure. Less than 10 minutes per 10ft length. It took longer to cut the rails to length and get the saw setup.

I cut them to the final 1.1" since the sake rides on the top of the rail, its nearly impossible to trim them down after the fact.

If anyone in Houston, TX needs rails, let me know...

Dave

What is the difference between the SeelMax saw and any other portable Skil type saw other than the blade. Could I just order a 7 1/4" SteelMax blade and use it on my portable wood cutting saw?

Paul

Paul,

I don't own a SteelMax but I understand that it spins the blade at a slower speed than your regular saw.

Doug,

That would make sense in order to keep everything cooler, thanks.
Anyone who has used one before. Does the saw spin with fewer rpm than a regular saw?

Paul

The SteelMax saw definitely turns slower. Also, the blade arbor is a different size that a typical 7.25" circular saw I'm sure to discourage exactly this. To each his own, but I personally would not try it. The saw is not that expensive if you watch eBay and it is an absolutely fantastic thing to have around if you anticipate doing any further metal work.

Guess I am old fashion since I haven't broke down and bought one yet. From what I read on the hand held saws and the larger chop saw type, they do turn at a slower rpm and have more torque. Also the teeth on the blade are ground at a different angle than a wood saw blade (so the wood saw blades with carbide teeth will not work for cutting steel). I have some customers that swear by these saws and say that they cutt steel like butter and they even cutt when some of the blade teeth break off. Others customers that tried them and said after a few cutts the blade was gone and the blades are not cheap like the abrasive type blades. So they got rid of them and went back to the abrasive blades. Possibly the difference is either the brand of blades or maybe the way the operators are using them?

Paul,

My experience with the Steelmax has been great. I cut every member of the MM with it and have nothing negative to comment on. The cuts are clean, the blades lasted a long time (approx. 2 or 3 blades, I forget), etc.

I've also cut 2-7/8 drill pipe for table legs with ease. Cutting thin metal sheeting for building additions has also been nice.

I am not that excited by the Steelmax. My first reservation is the safety of a handheld circular saw for steel. Is there any history of accidents with the blades cracking up or spilling off their teeth?

And then I don't believe the cut finish is good enough for the grinding skate - so it does not remove the need to grind the top and bevels of the rail.

Comment on saw vs. cutting wheel.
The steelmax is a nice tool, but with all of them I find their can be errors / cut quality.

I was keen to remember that we are machining a surface to a significantly high tolerance using very affordable and accesible means.

The grinder with a cut wheel method does 2 things very important processes for us in the Mechmate world.
1 - makes certain that the cut is exactly from bottom of angle iron to top of "FLAT" surface is 1.1" or whatever you decide is the final resting height of your VEE.
2 - makes certain that your cut is exactly the right height because step #3 is grinding the VEE. This is a TOP reference grind that is most worlds is not standard practice.

The MM method of using a top referenced grinding tool dictates that we have a smooth, regular and reliable top surface.

If using the steelmax, I would still require you to grind it smooth after cutting to maintain tolerance.

I guess the moral here your really not saving a lot of time to do the same process - but precision is paramount.

...my humble opinion.

Sean

While I've not had any teeth break off, the design of the blade guard seems like it would capture any broken teeth. Plus, there are plenty of chop-saws with toothed baldes that spin at speeds well above a cold saw.

The undressed cut of my rail was so smooth that I didn't even clean it up. The skate ran fine over the cut rail.

I would really suggest getting a steel cutting circular saw for yourself. I would assume that you'd feel the same Greg and I feel after using it. Tell you what, if I build the second MechMate for a profit, I'll send you one free.

I have not tried the Steelmax saw to cut rails. I was however very impressed when I cut 1/4" steel with Marc's, it's nothing like you think, very much under control, but safety glasses would definitely be a good idea.
My suggestion would be after cutting down the rails, use a caliper or micrometer and measure every 6" down the rail. If you are satisfied with that get the rail flat and slide a mill file down the cut just to see where it does or doesn't touch. If you are satisfied with that use the skate to cut the angles. If you are not satisfied use the skate to grind the rails flat.
I was so impressed I bought several of the Steelmax 2802 model.

Sliding a mill file down the edge will easily and quickly take care of my "finish quality" concern, if it is justified at all. So we can put that one to bed.

From what I hear, this thing cuts fast . . . . . . From my woodworking attempts, I have learnt that ripping a plank with a portable skilsaw is a hit & miss affair, so I am afraid that the rail may suddenly be gouged too deep by the Steelmax, thus ruining it completely. It doesn't strike me that an amateur metalworker bloke can trim a narrow angle iron down accurately with this vicious machine. Since I don't have the tiniest experience of a Steelmax (it is not sold here), I have to be cautious. And I want to guard against this forum sending a message that the Steelmax is essential for for building a MechMate.

Could someone post a photo of the fence they rigged up on their Steelmax?

The steelmax comes with its own fence maybe 10" to 12" long. It fastens to the saw's bottom plate in 2 places. I see how this could have its degree of accuracy, however I have been using a circular saw most of my life. Even today I don't like having to use one I am not use to...

I made my own using 1"x1"x1/8" angle. When I get home tonight, let me search my photo's and I'll post a picture.

The SteelMax circular saw cuts .25" angle at about the rate of 20-30 seconds per linear foot.

I've seen some pretty impressive things built over a hundred years ago, prior to the advent of power tools and I marvel that these people didn't have hundredth of an inch accurate table saws, routers, jigs saws and the like. They did it all with hand tools. Also (in more modern times) in my trips to China, I was constantly amazed by what people with little means could accomplish - by hand, things that in the United States we wouldn't even think of doing by hand - and the quality was on-par what we would produce by machine.

So, I think the comment about the "amateur metalworker" may be accurate - it's very much about skill. Sure, some tools make skill nearly irrelevant but even cheap tools can, with enough time and focus, made to produce an end result just as good as something produced with a "professional' tool.

I personally feel that if someone takes the time to setup the SteelMax rip fence properly and lock it down (~5 minutes), that there is no reason that someone with the most basic skills can do this. I might even say that non-metal working people might feel more comfortable with the "circular saw" than the grinder as it is something they have familiarity with.

I sure hope I've never conveyed that the SteelMax is essential for the build of a MechMate, as the SteelMax saw is NOT essential for the MechMate build. On a personal level - I'd sure say that it does the work of a lot of tools you might need (chop saw, band saw, grinder, etc) and I am completely sold on it. Had it not been for Marc Shlaes (and Greg J) on this board responding to my frustrations with cutting down the rail using other means (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showt...04&postcount=5), I would have never purchased the SteelMax saw. I'm very happy they did steer me in that direction. I also appreciate that others posted many other methods (all of which I reviewed), I wasn't confused at all. It did take more time to review but I feel it was well worth every minute.

I can do one better than that. I've posted a YouTube video of me cutting a rail down to 1.1". It then shows the resulting cut. Since the quality of the video isn't that great, I've attached some photos of my other rail that hopefully are a bit more clear. The total time to cut 5 feet of rail, with an old blade is just under 2 minutes. I make a mistake and refer at the end to the "uncut rail" - it should be "cut rail".

YouTube Video of Rail Cutting with the Steel Max Saw:
http://www.youtube.com/v/PWUCXcj3a8E

I am extending an offer to anyone who wants it - if you want a 1ft sample section of the rail, PM me and I will send it to you for $10 (US domestic only).

Gerald, if you'd like a section, just PM your address and I'll sent it to you free of charge. If you'd like to try out a SteelMax saw, find one on eBay (or any other retailer), buy it and I will re-ship it to you free.

Two questions on the steelmax.

#1 How did you clamp or hold the angle straight while cutting? When I cutt my x rails with a grinder I had to lay a 10" channel on the forklift + a 1/4" x 12" flat steel on top of the channel, and prop the ends up so that everything was straight and level before cutting since most every piece of steel has some degree of curve. I take it your standing or clamping the angle up on it's edge in a vice, or tack welding it to a table of sort that is straight?


#2 After purchasing the steel angle iron + the steelmax aren't you above the cost of the aluminum angle and premade hardened rail which would be straighter, harder and have more surface area than the DYI rails?

I ground my rails but first cutting down the one leg, then I clamped the rail to my 4'x8' welding table that is pretty flat. I ground both sides and then slid it down and ground down the next section. For those that have the main channel at the time they are grinding rails, I would recommend clamping it and grinding it there (as others have mentioned).

I guess this is where individual situations come into play. I only paid $70, including shipping, for the SteelMax saw, so it's full retail price wasn't an issue for me. I also knew that I could use the SteelMax saw for other projects in the future (even more now that I've used one).

Prices listed below assume a table size of 4'x8'. My total cost to produce rails was:

• Grinder: $100 (with wheel)
• Skate: $19.60 (8 @ 2.45) bearings from Superior Bearing
• Eccentrics (free since you have to have them for the z-slide)
• Misc bolts, nuts and washer - $25 (see complete list here: http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showt...8&postcount=43)
• SteelMax saw $70 (yes I know it's not always that cheap)
• 40ft of 2.5" x 2" x .250" Angle - $110
• Total cost of rails (X, Y AND Z): $254.60 USD
• I exclude the cost of the skate metal itself since it generally comes included with the "mechmate" bent steel packages. The time for me to grind rails was 2-4 hours depending on how your figure it - let's just say 5-9 hours to be safe.
• I also used the skate to grind my Z slide: http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=753 for no additional cost.

Had I built the Al rail option:

• SteelMax saw $70 or other saw (or Al cutting blade for my circular or table saw) to cut down Al rails to 2.5" x .6 x .24
• 2x 12' hardened tracks, 2x 7' hardened tracks, 2' hardened track (Z) - $378 (from http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showt...23&postcount=1)
• 2x 16' x 3" x 2" x 1/4 @ $212, 2x 8' x 3" x 2" x 1/4" @ $89. (from http://www.metalsdepot.com/products/...LimAcc=$LimAcc) - I'll give you that the 2 1/2" angle and a local purchase would be cheaper, so I'll drop that cost from $302 to $225 to be fair
• Misc bolts/nuts/washers for attaching rail to the angle - $10
• Total cost of X/Y/Z rails: $683
• Note: This excludes the cost that might be incurred to cut down the z-slide (SteelMax saw would work well here :) ). Also the amount of time to drill the rail and Al angle should be taken into account (unsure how long this actually takes)
• Note: There is some price difference for shipping 12' as opposed to 8' rails (which then are butt jointed). Unharded 8' rails appear to be sold for $51 per rail. This would put them at about $204 plus shipping.

Total cost difference between the two systems: ~$429 USD. If your build total build cost (without the difference of $429) was $6000, that would be a 7% increase in the overall cost of the MechMate to go with Al rails over ground steel rails.

If any of my numbers are off or if I missed anything (for either system), please feel free to post corrections.

Straighter is up for debate. My rails are pretty darn straight. When I milled down my spoil board it was, to my eye, perfectly flat (according to my 5ft straight edge) without any dips or valleys. As I mentioned in another post - I think if there is
variability, it would have been in the hot rolled steel main channels - now those are NOT "completely" flat (as in cold drawn Al). So, I would have put really flat Al on top of a not so flat leg of hot rolled steel. Either way, according this this post http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showt...38&postcount=2 it won't be better than .005" without special measures. That post also points out that the accuracy of the rail comes not from the rail itself but the Al angle itself - so this then comes down to how good of a job the builder did when they cut down the Al rail.

I would buy the harder since Superior Bearing says it's hardened (though no reference is provided to the level of hardening) - if you paid the extra money for them. I'm assuming it to be harder than standard mild steel.

As to the "more surface area" - could you elaborate? I'm assuming we are talking about T3 from the following chart:
http://www.superiorbearing.com/image...rack_chrt3.jpg

I have no issue with the Al rails - if someone was worried about the steel rails or just didn't want to fuss with it, I surely wouldn't try to stop them. There are cost, tool and skill differences here and it doesn't appear there is one good obvious option.

As I've offered before - I'm happy to sell pre-ground rail, local pickup in Houston, TX, USA (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=749)

Geeez, I miss one evening and ..... I'll leave it at that.

Here's the pic promised. I couldn't find the original 1"x1" angle, so I placed some scrap 1"x1" to show the configuration. I just made a rip fence on the bottom of the saw using the 1"x1". I bolted the angle to the bottom where you see two holes. There's another set of holes at the "top" that are difficult to see. It worked rather well.

Attachment 1510

Did you run the fence against the 1.1" side, or against the off-cut side? If ever I went the Steelmax route, I would probably run the fence against the off-cut and then then finish the 1.1" with the grinder.

No sir, I ran the fence against the side with the angle. (might be some language difference). It really doesn't matter. What ever method works.

I'm tempted to just send you a SteelMax saw so you can experiment with it. I was skeptical at first, until my buddy demonstrated his. The finished cut is good, and it's not hot to the touch after cutting. That's a nice feature when cutting painted metal.

I am toying with the idea of importing some "Steelmax" blades to run on a modified "chopsaw". The correct speed will be observed. (If the Steelmax is so good, why isn't there a "chopsaw" version?).

Not interested in a complete Steelmax saw motor because it is not supported by a local service center. Steelmax may already be exporting to SA via some dealer, and I would first ask them about that.

Gerald

Welcome Back. We have the Evolution range available here in SA, contact Cape Tool Centre 0861 106 389 or 021 982 3546 (082 886 8856 Henk), they sell machines and blades. I have one of their 355mm cut off saw which works beautifully but the blades are pricey (just received one for about R1100.00). The user has to be careful as the tips are prone to break off if not used with care (vans!) you cant bang the blade down.

I have no doubt that the blades can be used on another saw, the speed and gearing must be correct though (about 1600 rpm). This will work fine on a belt driven chopsaw if the pulleys are changed, but using them on a skill saw type machine may be tricky to get the speed right. The Evolution machine has a built in gearbox to reduce speed and increase torque.

Funny you should ask....
http://www.steelmax.com/saws_s14.htm
http://www.steelmax.com/images/s14.gif


Though I've had /excellent/ results with the Milwaukee (I have no idea if they are in SA) abrasive chopsaw for which there is a dry-cut saw of the same version, so I think I'd be tempted to go that route since it's hold down and base is better:

http://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-6190...2735951&sr=8-1
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...500_AA280_.jpg

Looks like I should have said "cold saw" instead of "chopsaw" I am thinking of permanent floor mounted, three-phase powered, brushless, quiet running machine that can run all day. The production sawing of steel is very common, yet I have not yet seen carbide-tipped blades used in heavy production. Circular saws are used, but they don't have carbide tips. If the carbide tips are so great, why doesn't someone like http://www.haeberle.de/ offer such a version?

More references:

http://bandsawblade.com/circularsawblades.htm

http://www.metaldevil.com/index.html

http://www.steelmax.com/home.htm

The rated max speeds of the MetalDevil versus the SteelMax are vastly different.

What is the nameplate speed on the SteelMax machines you guys have used, and what is the diam. and marked speed of the blades? Their web page is very light on specs - only says 15 Amp. Their FAQ page says 1750Watt, 120V, 2700 rpm.

MetalDevil gives some specs on the saws: 9" model
• Arbor Size: 25.4mm (1 Inch)
• Amps: 15 Voltage not stated
• Watts: 1,800
• RPM: 2,500
• Blade Size: 9"
• Maximum Cutting Depth: 3.25"

Notice that around 2600 rpm for a 9" blade is much slower than for a grinder which will turn a 9" wheel at over 6000rpm. Do not be tempted to fit these blades to a grinder!

Here is a link to the Evolution site, they seem identical to the steelmax.

EVO355 RAPTOR 380mm TCT Steel Cut Off Saw

Motor (230v or 115v 50/60 Hz) (Watts) 2200
RPM No Load (min -1) 1450
Recommended Maximum Duty Cycle (Minutes) 30
Sound Pressure Level (Under Load) (dB(A)) 112.4
Weight (Kg) 23.0
Maximum Dimensions (mm) H 575 W 355 D 600
Maximum Box Cut Capacity 90° (6mm Wall)
Square (mm) 120 x 120
Rectangle (mm) 95 x 180
Round (mm) 130
Maximum Box Cut Capacity 45° (6mm Wall)
Square (mm) 89 x 89
Rectangle (mm) 78 x 110
Round (mm) 105

Blade Specifications
Maximum Diameter (mm) 355
Bore Diameter (mm) 25.4
Maximum Thickness (mm) 2

Nice tool, but not portable (hand model) like the SteelMax.
I know Triton also have a cutsaw of some sort for steel. Only for small sections

Here is a link to it:
http://www.triton.com.au/product.php?id=36

The original idea of cutting steel with saws lik this is probably pretty old but
actual sales of these saws have only been mainstreem for maybe 4-5 years. I think my local welding shop supplier brought one out about 2002 and gave me a demonstration. Yes it cutt fast but what threw me was the cost of the blades. I think that is the main hold back (even if the blades have been proven to last long) for alot of people. They are waiting to see if it is just a passing fad that will end when users find out the cost of upkeep on the blades. I think the blades have been redesigned and are alot better now than when the saw first came out.

+ most people don't like change even if it is for the better. ;)

Thanks for posting this find - it does appear to be a very close copy of the SteelMax saw. For US people, they have an on-line ordering website here:

http://www.evolutiononlineshop.com/

The price for the "STEELSAW" with the 7" blade is 204.75 - or about $50 to $100 cheaper than the SteelMax sells for new on eBay.