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  #1  
Old Fri 03 April 2009, 16:59
Mike94531
Just call me: Mike
 
Antioch, California
United States of America
Tilting or hide-away MM? limited floor space

Due to other projects and tools, my floor space is limited, yet I'd like a decent sized table...

so, I was thinking, what about making an MM that once done with it for the day, I can remove the YZ bridge and tilt the table up on its side to gain my floor space back somewhat?
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  #2  
Old Sun 05 April 2009, 01:29
ChiknNutz
Just call me: Chris
 
PNW
United States of America
Anything's possible with enough ingenuity (and money :-)
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  #3  
Old Sun 05 April 2009, 13:17
Mike94531
Just call me: Mike
 
Antioch, California
United States of America
I figured out a spot in the garage that I can move some shelving on my single garage portion of my garage.

Now to start hunting down material and go thru what I currently have laying around.
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  #4  
Old Sat 11 April 2009, 10:18
Medemt
Just call me: Dan
 
Avon, IN
United States of America
Mike,

If you can pull this off, I am extremely interested. I just built a new workshop and would hate to tear into it again to make room for a MM. This is another reason I have not committed to making one yet. I know there are designs on the market that are angled units.

I was kind of toying around with sitting down on my ACAD and seeing how I could come up with a design to do this.

Please make a post of any drawings or sketches you may come up with.

Dan
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  #5  
Old Thu 16 April 2009, 10:47
TheDave
Just call me: dave
 
Toledo (Ohio)
United States of America
I think you could come up with a decent design without spending a lot of money. However, you need to consider the time you will spend setting up your table every time you "untilt" it so you can use it.

What is the accuracy you want out of the machine? You may find that for your tolerances you can spend 5 minutes leveling the table every time you want to use it. Or if you discover you need much more accuracy it may take 15 minutes, or an hour, to level and square the table.

An idea I had once was to bolt one c-channel of the mech mate table to the wall and have the opposite side of the table free-standing. This way I could remove the gantry and slide the legs against the wall when not in use. But I gave it up when I realized how much work would go into aligning everything and then somehow holding it in place while the table operates.

I'd love to see you come up with this kind of design - I'm always secretly hoping someone will devise a really simple method I could use to get some floor space back!
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  #6  
Old Thu 16 April 2009, 11:54
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDave View Post
You may find that for your tolerances you can spend 5 minutes leveling the table every time you want to use it. Or if you discover you need much more accuracy it may take 15 minutes, or an hour, to level and square the table.
For cutting boards, "level", or even some "twist" of the table top makes little difference. The board just follows the table.

(Twist becomes a problem when the gantry starts to rock and all 4 wheels no longer seat firmly.)

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that precise setting up, after a move, will seldom be needed.
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  #7  
Old Fri 04 September 2009, 23:34
MAC2009
Just call me: MAC
 
West ST Paul, MN
United States of America
Tilting table MM

Large telescopes are home made all the time 20+ dia. mirrors 12' + length.
They are built with a truss system that is remove able and put together tin 5 to 15 minuets with a lot closer tolerances then needed with the mechmate.

The Idea is to make sockets for the legs to be installed repeatedly.
one side or both and stow the table or hinge it to the wall and let it swing down leaving wall space above it.

Some sort of latches to hold the gantry and another set for the car holding then in place when stowed will save on connection.


If you search AM telescopes, Tri-Dob telescopes, San Fransisco sidewalk Astromers,

http://www.bbastrodesigns.com/trilateral.html this is good start

I will also be working on this and hope to post some drawings, at some time!


MAC
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  #8  
Old Sat 05 September 2009, 07:30
Allegheny
Just call me: Brian
 
Massachusetts
United States of America
Has anyone ever tried hoisting a finished MM up to the ceiling? I have thought about this for my garage as the only space left in there is where my wife parks her car.

Unless you have really high ceilings, I guess you would need to minimize the height of the gantry/y-car/z-slide (move the z-axis beyond the edge of the spoilboard and do a maximum depth plunge), and possibly make the leg system removable. There are some very precise lift systems out there, so it should be doable.

Brian
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  #9  
Old Sat 05 September 2009, 11:50
servant74
Just call me: Jack
 
Nashville (Tennessee)
United States of America
I have thought of making shorter legs, so it would be lower. If you can hoist it,
you can raise it and have more clearance below.

When I first started looking at the MM, Gerald responded to a message indicating he was thinking about making a 'short table' that could be higher
and could possibly go 'over the bonnet' (hood, for us in the USA) when the car was pulled in the garage. I also thought about just building one 'taller' and put at one end of the garage, but modify the table so the hood could be pulled under the side. .... Working and storage in a confined space like this could have its own issues.

I have also thought about doing one like a 'Murphy Bed', where the major portion of the table would 'fold up', but a short amount of the table would stay 'flat' so the Y axis trolly could 'roll away' to be able to 'fold away' the base part of the bed.

One problem, and I think Gerald would concur, is when you reduce the mass of the base, you increase the probability if the base moving under the stresses of running the router. On the base, more mass is good, some mass on the Y axis and Z axis trolleys is good, but to much is bad. Lower mass Z axis is better (but still needs to be rigid enough to keep tollerance).

Just a few thoughts.
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  #10  
Old Sun 06 September 2009, 07:28
Allegheny
Just call me: Brian
 
Massachusetts
United States of America
Jack,

I agree, the more massive the base, the better the dampening. Bolting the legs to the floor has this effect. One could also build the main X-beams from rectangular tubing and fill them with lead shot after all the various holes are drilled and tapped. For that matter, even the table cross beam supports, diagonal braces and even legs (using tubing, obviously) could be filled with something (lead, concrete, sand, etc.) for an all out effort to increase mass. Of course, that would make hoisting it to the ceiling that much more difficult (in terms of engineering the ceiling to support the additional weight).

Brian
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  #11  
Old Sun 06 September 2009, 10:35
bfauska
Just call me: Brian #30
 
Seattle, WA
United States of America
What about no legs, so it sits on the floor and then you could put some anchors in your shop/garage floor and bolt it in place when you use it then unbolt and hoist it out of the way when you aren't using it?

Still build the "Table" but no legs or braces, this way you get more clearance when you hoist it and the whole mass of the floor keeps is sturdy.
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  #12  
Old Sun 06 September 2009, 15:39
Allegheny
Just call me: Brian
 
Massachusetts
United States of America
Brian,

Bolting the table directly to the floor would theoretically work. I suggest that you'll need to budget for chiropractic treatments, however.

Brian
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  #13  
Old Thu 17 December 2009, 11:27
TheDave
Just call me: dave
 
Toledo (Ohio)
United States of America
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerald D View Post
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that precise setting up, after a move, will seldom be needed.
Wow, I just had an epiphany while moving my drill press last night, and realized that I never worry about the drill press table. Now I understand what you are saying!!!!

Hmmm, now I will really consider the fold-away table! Redesign for me at this point is not a big deal since the table is the only thing I've built so far.
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  #14  
Old Tue 05 January 2010, 08:08
lumberjack_jeff
Just call me: Jeff #31
 
Montesano, WA
United States of America
It'd be intriguing to think about a MechMate placed against a wall with the workpiece vertical. A 48" x 96" machine could be built with a roughly 120" x 30" footprint. If you move the y-carriage up out of the way when not in use, the machine only takes up 20" of floor space. Small enough to fit in most garages without evicting the car.

A good vacuum system (or at least securely screwing the workpiece to the "table") would be a requirement, I guess. But the other engineering challenges seem doable. The z-spring is gone - replaced with a y-carriage counterweight, and the gantry vertical load could be carried by wheels at the top.
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  #15  
Old Tue 05 January 2010, 10:25
lumberjack_jeff
Just call me: Jeff #31
 
Montesano, WA
United States of America
The more I think about this, the more I like it. The X-beams need not be so massive because the table becomes one big I-beam with one side supported by the floor. Additionally, the gantry doesn't need to be quite so massive either, because the tube span only needs to deal with cutting forces and not gravity.

Benefits; No debris under the workpieces, simpler to load and unload(?), easier access to all parts of the working area, much smaller footprint, lighter gantry and table.
Disadvantages: gravity encourages finished parts to fall off the table.

I think the biggest construction/design challenge would be preventing/providing for adjustment of twist in the table, but that could be addressed by an adjustment built into the wall attachment hardware.

Hmm. I need to do some drawing.

Last edited by lumberjack_jeff; Tue 05 January 2010 at 10:50..
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  #16  
Old Tue 05 January 2010, 11:49
lumberjack_jeff
Just call me: Jeff #31
 
Montesano, WA
United States of America
Here's what I'm thinking. Obviously, there are some big topics which still need to be drawn, most notably, how to keep the y-car from falling on the floor.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg wall_mechmate.jpg (64.5 KB, 848 views)
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  #17  
Old Tue 05 January 2010, 13:56
Claudiu
Just call me: Claus #43
 
Arad
Romania
Hi Jeff,
think about linear rails. They could be easily bolted to gantry and also fixing the Y Car with its four sliders.
Greetings
Claus
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  #18  
Old Wed 06 January 2010, 08:40
lumberjack_jeff
Just call me: Jeff #31
 
Montesano, WA
United States of America
That is a really good idea Claus. Place them between the gantry rails?
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  #19  
Old Wed 06 January 2010, 11:37
Claudiu
Just call me: Claus #43
 
Arad
Romania
Jeff, you mount them simply centered on the gantry tube where you would mount the handmade rails.
The sliders have to be attached where your rollers on the Y Car are now with angle iron.
Advantage is that the sliders dont come off the rails, no matter what position they´re mounted.
Rack has to mounted on a flat profile which comes between racks and gantry tube, leaving gantry tube sideways to carry rack or maybe skrew racks directly onto welded nuts on side of gantry tube. Thats just for a quick brainstorm ...
LinRailYCar.jpg
Something like this. (it.s just a 5 min sketch)
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  #20  
Old Wed 06 January 2010, 17:15
oopz
Just call me: oopz
 
Stockholm
Sweden
Hi All !!

For me who are building a wall mounted SLANTED BASE this above IS interesting ( about linear rails ) but not the BIG issues in my build (I'm building 2 different bases and also 2 different machines). The solution IS VERY INTERESTING but I can from my perspective not see the drawback with Gerald's basic design. (Even in Slanted position) YES linear rails .. it gives same extra benefits which do not come off the rails for free, no matter what position they are mounted. BUT with V-Groove and the R&P what do not follow etc.. THE "problem" with "breaking the car" still reminds. A good working functional counter weight is 1 thing... then right motors and 2 of them plus motion on both sides. Thats where I will start.. maybe wrong but its a start.

And ooohh yes the base itself is an other then original..

/oppz
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  #21  
Old Wed 06 January 2010, 22:38
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
A constantly energised DC motor can be used as the "counterweight"
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  #22  
Old Wed 06 January 2010, 22:45
lumberjack_jeff
Just call me: Jeff #31
 
Montesano, WA
United States of America
Pretty darn nice 5 min sketch.
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  #23  
Old Thu 07 January 2010, 17:45
riesvantwisk
Just call me: Ries #46
 
Quito
Ecuador
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I don't have any idea on making a vertical/angled CNC machine (I never have seen one even) but can't you not make the table and the legs separately ?

Then when you don't need the MM you basically lift the table and put it on a shelf (still horizontally). The MM legs you keep it on the floor and you can use them to make a working bench from it.

When you need the MM you basically lift it back on the legs and work from there.
Lifting the MM can be done with a simple pulley and a swing/role armature.

This way you don't have to re-invent the wheel, but still beable to work on limited space.

I hope I made myself clear...

Ries
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  #24  
Old Fri 08 January 2010, 02:19
Claudiu
Just call me: Claus #43
 
Arad
Romania
I would`t like knowing that half a ton of steel is dangling from the ceiling above my head, or my car, or my family....
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  #25  
Old Fri 08 January 2010, 02:31
Johannescnc
Just call me: John
 
Hannover, DE
Germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claudiu View Post
I would`t like knowing that half a ton of steel is dangling from the ceiling above my head, or my car, or my family....
That was also my initial thought... But I do like the idea of a wall mounted or leaning design for those who have limited space. But in my opinion, will not be a MechMate...
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  #26  
Old Fri 08 January 2010, 05:09
riesvantwisk
Just call me: Ries #46
 
Quito
Ecuador
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Claus,

I am not saying you need to keep hanging in chains, or keep hanging it But if you build a little floor out of metal then this can be strong enough to hold the top part of the MM, which I don't think is 500Kg. But even then People build complete bathtubs, concrete structures on second floors so it can be done safely.

Obvious, for everybody it would be very nice to have a wall mounted or leaning design MM....

Ries
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  #27  
Old Fri 08 January 2010, 07:34
normand blais
Just call me: Normand
 
montreal
Canada
Spacesaver an example vertical almost
http://www.axyz.com/sys/router/spacemaker/
http://www.enseignesbp.com/nos-reali...ettrage-vinyl/ light duty.


http://www.google.com/patents?id=5Dk...age&q=&f=false for more info

Last edited by normand blais; Fri 08 January 2010 at 07:43..
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  #28  
Old Fri 08 January 2010, 08:23
servant74
Just call me: Jack
 
Nashville (Tennessee)
United States of America
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=5311

How about the thought of using a basic panel saw design. Not suggesting it but there is a picture of a DIY panel saw that might be used as a basis for a type of design of a wall CNC table... Might also think of doing one that could 'tilt further' to be more toward horizontal if that might be more convenient.

Just some more thoughts.
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  #29  
Old Sat 09 January 2010, 10:30
domino11
Just call me: Heath
 
Cornwall, Ontario
Canada
This sounds like it is drifting to a whole new design.
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  #30  
Old Sat 09 January 2010, 10:49
riesvantwisk
Just call me: Ries #46
 
Quito
Ecuador
Send a message via MSN to riesvantwisk Send a message via Skype™ to riesvantwisk
http://www.google.com/patents?id=5Dk...age&q=&f=false for more info[/QUOTE] <== Did laugh my pants of with that one These people tried to patent the counter weight, I though that software patents where crazy, but aparently you can get a patent on gravity
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