MechMate CNC Router Forum

Go Back   MechMate CNC Router Forum > Structure & Mechanics > 50. Toolheads
Register Options Profile Last 1 | 3 | 7 Days Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old Sat 22 December 2007, 07:15
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
Which spindle are you using?

We know that Gerald is using a spindle. I would like to know what make of spindle and the HP of the spindle you are using. I am considering a spindle.
Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Sat 22 December 2007, 11:14
Richards
Just call me: Mike
 
South Jordan, UT
United States of America
Nils,
I use a Colombo 3hp spindle with a Delta VFD-B drive. Everything runs from 240VAC 1-phase.

For the type of work that I do, it works fine. My vacuum hold-down is too light to use a bigger spindle.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old Tue 08 January 2008, 12:58
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
Gerald,

Would you please provide me some information about your HSD Spindle. I have contacted HSD in USA and they have given me two prices.

One for a 4 HP and for a 6.7 HP. Don't you have a 5 HP. What kind of money did you have to pay. The price is uner $1300. That is without a VFD.

Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Tue 08 January 2008, 18:58
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Nils, I paid much less than that, but that is because HSD don't have agents/middlemen in this country - I basically accepted that I purchased the spindles without any support.

Y616107319 MT1073-140-ER25-380V-DX-18/18000-3,5KW
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Tue 08 January 2008, 23:53
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
Gerald,

Can you translate this:

Y616107319 MT1073-140-ER25-380V-DX-18/18000-3,5KW

Can you tell me what the following are for:

-140-

-ER25- That is the collet

-DX-

-18-

-18000 - Max speed

Yours is a 4.5 HP. Do you think a 24000 is better and that a 4.5 is suitable size. They quoted me a 6.7 also 24000.

Thanks

Last edited by sailfl; Tue 08 January 2008 at 23:56..
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Wed 09 January 2008, 01:12
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Nils, I would have to dig a lot to find those answers, but here is a useful reference doc for the time being. This is a generic doc shared by at least 2 spindle makers, so there are subtle variatons on numbering.

DX - I think is "Direct Fan"

18000 versus 24000 top speed generally means either all-steel-bearings(18000) or ceramic-balled-bearings(24000). The faster one is of course the more expensive one to buy and to service.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Spindle Motors.pdf (937.5 KB, 233 views)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Wed 09 January 2008, 01:35
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
Gerald,

Hold off on doing any information searching until I hear from the guy from HSD. If he can supply me with a cataloge, that might solve my problem. Later I will have more questions.

I know from an earlier thread that you replaced the factory fan with another one. I will ask you about that.

Thanks for the PDF.

Thanks

Last edited by sailfl; Wed 09 January 2008 at 01:46..
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Wed 09 January 2008, 07:04
Alan_c
Just call me: Alan (#11)
 
Cape Town (Western Cape)
South Africa
Send a message via Skype™ to Alan_c
MT1073 = frame size
140 = motor size reference
DX = clockwise rotation
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old Wed 09 January 2008, 08:49
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Clockwise rotation? These things can spin either way, can't they?

Vaguely remember the internal rotor diameter is 73mm and the rotor length is 140. For a certain "frame", various lengths of spindle rotor are available. Must dig a little deeper . . . . . . .
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Wed 09 January 2008, 10:44
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
Gerald,

You aren't suppose to be asking us these questions. You have don't you know. I am going to talk to the HSD guy today. I act as dumb as I feel and get an answer from him.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old Thu 10 January 2008, 00:04
Alan_c
Just call me: Alan (#11)
 
Cape Town (Western Cape)
South Africa
Send a message via Skype™ to Alan_c
Gerald

I can't seem to find my reference right now, but the DX indication is an Italian abreviation for clockwise cutter direction (I think the other way is BX). If you look at your spindles you will usually see a direction arrow sticker on the front. Of course they can be run in both directions, but I think the manufacturer likes to play it safe by indication "normal" direction.

The electrical fan is indicated by an "EL" in the product code.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old Thu 10 January 2008, 01:10
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Directions for Italian coffee grinders DX/SX
Yes, there is an arrow. Maybe it stops some threads inside from unscrewing?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old Thu 10 January 2008, 03:33
J.R. Hatcher
Just call me: J.R. #4
 
Wilmington, North Carolina
United States of America
Send a message via Skype™ to J.R. Hatcher
Rotation may also have to do with airflow from the fan, my routers have the air flowing out the bottom to keep chips and dust from being pulled into the motor.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old Thu 10 January 2008, 04:16
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
The fan blades in this case are symmetrical - the direction won't affect it.

These fans are centrifugal - they draw air into their center and fling it out at the edge of the impeller. Changing direction of the impeller still draws the air in at the center and flings it out at the edge.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old Fri 11 January 2008, 04:43
rhfurniture
Just call me: ralph
 
Cheltenham
United Kingdom
From my Firmec catalog, SX and DX suffixes are listed as fixing type - D(destra)X = right side and S(sinistra)X = left side. I assume this indicates the position of the threaded holes on the motor body for fastening. The other alternatives are special and bottom.....

R.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old Fri 11 January 2008, 04:45
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
Gerald,

This is spindle related, I thought I would place it here.

Since I am thinking of purchasing a spindle are the 10 70 115 and 10 70 130 correct?

Also are you happy with you HSD 4.5 HP spindle? Would you buy a 6.7 HP? Please included any other thoughts you have about your HSD spindle or spindles in general.

Have you thought about adding air to blow on the bit?

Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old Fri 11 January 2008, 08:17
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Those drawings refer to single phase - typically a spindle of the size you are contemplating would need a 3-phase supply. What supply do you have?

Entirely happy with current spindle - havn't come near to thinking a bigger one will be better. (Realise that a 4.5HP spindle is twice as powerful as a so-called 3.25HP router).

Why blow air on the bit? Our bits run cool enough. Besides, blowing air over there is going to put lots of dust in the air. Some guys do it with cutting alu, but then there is mostly an oil mist added for lubrication. We avoid metal cutting. I have blown air while making a video though, while the dust collector foot was open. What more do you want me to "think" about?
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old Fri 11 January 2008, 14:36
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
I don't have anything as of now. I have to rewire my garage to handle all the additional power needs. I currently have a 15A Breaker for the garage and parts of my house. When I run my table saw, I some times trip the breaker. So a rewire is gong to be one of my tasks.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old Sun 13 January 2008, 06:25
bleeth
Just call me: Dave
 
Florida
United States of America
Nils: I run a Columbo 5HP spindle with a Delta VFD that is rated for 10HP 3 Phase but is wired for the spindle at single phase. Before you make your final selection you should check with your electric company to see if and how much getting 3 phase to your garage will cost. It can end up a pretty big pile of cash.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old Sun 13 January 2008, 06:37
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
Dave,

Thanks for the info on what you are using.

Yes, it is going to cost me to upgrade the garage with more power. My garage is separate from my house and just to run a line from the main panel to the garge will cost me about $300 for the wire.

My Borther suggested having a separate meter for the garage and I might do that but I then have to pay an additional $10 a month just for the meter. That is not much but I am not sure I need to spend the additional money.

I am not done determining what my electrical needs will be. Besides the MM, I want Dust Collection and some kind of vacuum which will require additional power. I am going to have a spindle.

The nice thing, I can run the new line and wire the garage myself which will save some money that can be used on the garage which I might make a little larger.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old Sun 13 January 2008, 06:51
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailfl View Post
. . . Besides the MM, I want Dust Collection and some kind of vacuum which will require additional power.
That vacuum can use as much power as everything else put together. The really serious production people are not shy of talking 20HP just on vacuum - I cringe and think of global warming.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old Sun 13 January 2008, 06:58
Doug_Ford
Just call me: Doug #3
 
Conway (Arkansas)
United States of America
Nils,

A few years ago, I bought a lathe and mill that run off three phase power and I was trying to get them connected. Several knowledgable people told me that the power company wouldn't just connect my house to 3 phase power because they have to install a couple of extra transformers and my power usage wouldn't justify the expense. Then I found out about VFDs. The smaller VFDs could take single phase electricity as in input and they would output enough three phase electricity to run up to a 3 hp motor. The larger VFDs required that three phase power be input. When I spoke to the salesman, he told me I could actually run a larger motor by buying a much larger VFD and derating it. I don't remember now how much larger the VFD had to be but I bet if you called one of the VFD manufacturers, they could tell you.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old Sun 13 January 2008, 16:10
bleeth
Just call me: Dave
 
Florida
United States of America
Doug: That is the deal with my Columbo/Delta hook-up. That's why it was a 10HP VFD for the 5HP spindle.

Nils: Even in my shop I have run a sub-panel to the area with the bot. I have it at 50 Amps and it is sufficient to run the spindle, 7.5HP regenerative blower, the 5HP dust collector and plenty for the additional 110 needs of the shop computer. My compressor is a bit of a bear and needs a lot of juice and has it's own breaker from the main. If I were to run a sub-panel from my house to my shop and needed to run all the above and also the usual additions of a table saw and other misc tools like a chop saw, drill press, lights, fans, etc. I would want to run 100 Amp Subpanel minimum.

Gerald: the 7.5 blower keeps everything in place with no problem even when taking 9 cabinet sides out of a sheet. On the other hand if I were cutting many smaller parts I know it would not be sufficient. There are times when a particular sheet of plywood has too much warp in it for the vac to hold it down. (PS-glad you had a great trip)

Last edited by bleeth; Sun 13 January 2008 at 16:13..
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old Sun 13 January 2008, 16:15
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
Dave,

I am thinking of running a 100 A panel in the garage. I still have to calculate all the Amps to insure that I have enough.

I like to hear more about 7.5 Regen Blower. How you have your table set up? How many different zones? Noise level and why you went with the 7.5 HP? Tag on here or send me a private message.

Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old Fri 22 February 2008, 05:54
DMS
Just call me: Sharma #9 India
 
Rajasthan
India
What's the difference between single phase same HP router and spindle considering - noise level (db), weight, power and cut quality, vibrations.

Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old Fri 22 February 2008, 06:18
Richards
Just call me: Mike
 
South Jordan, UT
United States of America
I started with a Porter-Cable 7518 router (3-1/4hp, according to the sales literature) then then installed a 3hp Colombo spindle after about one year. The spindle is much quieter and is much more powerful. With a sharp cutter, I can cut about 2X faster OR 2x deeper with the spindle than I could with the router. (Keep in mind that running fast and hard can cause the cutter to 'wander', so for top quality, you'll probably run at slow to moderate speeds.)

The main advantage of the spindle is that I can dial in the speed to get the best RPM for a particular job. By listening to the cutter, I raise or lower the spindle speed until the cut sounds like paper tearing and I know that I've found the sweet spot for that cut. When I've found that 'sweet spot', I know that I can use the same $18 cutter to cut MDF all day long before the cutter dulls. It's not unusual to get eight hours out of one cutter.

The amp meter on the Delta VFD-B shows that the spindle is drawing about 5A at 240VAC for most aggressive cuts. I try to keep it below 6A, although it can easily handle 8A. The problem with the really heavy cuts is that the spindle's bearings start to get hot. I use an infa-red thermometer to monitor temperatures. The bearings are rated for about 140 degrees F, but I like to keep things at about 120 degrees.

Although I really like the spindle, I would not consider a router to be a liability. It's just a tool. After you've learned to use the tool properly, it will function very well. Except for the extra noise that the router makes, the final cut quality for MDF and particle board is identical. Porter-Cable routers cost about $300 on the Internet. A 3-hp Colombo with Delta VFD costs about $3,000. A set of ear protectors costs about $15.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old Fri 22 February 2008, 08:24
DMS
Just call me: Sharma #9 India
 
Rajasthan
India
Thanks Mike for your elaborate input.
Considering the above facts the spindle is good choice. But while cutting can speed (rpm) be reduced or increased ? Also if tool changes are more often in spindle being high rpm then router for same cutting length ? Because it adds up to running cost.
Some chinese water cooled spindles claim 100% duty cycle, what's your opinion about those ?
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old Fri 22 February 2008, 08:37
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
The major concern with a spindle is the bearing quality & life. The bearings are very expensive to replace. I would be nervous of a Chinese spindle, because I have had very bad experiences with their motor bearings in general. Simple motor bearings are easy to replace (I would even be happy to replace stepper motor bearings) but spindle bearings are too specialised to find at any old bearing supplier.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old Fri 22 February 2008, 09:12
DMS
Just call me: Sharma #9 India
 
Rajasthan
India
Thanks Gerald,
My main concern is that should I go for spindle or router ?
While spindle are quieter and fast, router are not, besides cut quality is same.
Since my Z-slide is heavy (350 mm), I have to consider weight of router also. Does this make any difference (flex)?
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old Fri 22 February 2008, 10:00
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
With spindles, everybody is super careful of protecting the expensive bearings. With the router you don't worry so much when you drive it into a clamp. You can always remove a router from the MechMate and use it in the hands as a router - you cannot do that with a spindle. I don't think that you will ever be sorry that you started with a router. . . . .

The weight is not an issue for flex. More weight is better for cut quality.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Register Options Profile Last 1 | 3 | 7 Days Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:52.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.