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  #61  
Old Wed 24 December 2008, 19:19
smreish
Just call me: Sean - #5, 28, 58 and others
 
Orlando, Florida
United States of America
Well,
I just received in the Post today all of my new Rhino suite. Rhino 4, Rhino Cam and Rhino 4th axis.
I let you all know how quick I can learn Rhino again. I haven't touched since it's first release back in 98? or something like that!
...now where is that darn instruction manual
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  #62  
Old Wed 24 December 2008, 20:29
jeady
Just call me: Jason
 
Detroit, MI
United States of America
That was when I started learning Rhino as well. College was a great time to not go to class to learn CAD programs instead
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  #63  
Old Thu 25 December 2008, 08:37
normand blais
Just call me: Normand
 
montreal
Canada
Hi Jason
We heard lots of good things all over about Vetric Aspire Now that they have a plug in with Rhino and Mecsoft's Rhinocam it might become even more interesting. Try to get some links from sales rep, to this great plugin because there is no mention of it in either Rhino ,Rhinocam or Vetric aspire web sites.
Normand Blais
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  #64  
Old Thu 25 December 2008, 09:24
jeady
Just call me: Jason
 
Detroit, MI
United States of America
I was informed it's not the same thing that the foreign sales rep was pronouncing it incorrectly it is Alibre they partnered with Mecsoft and the software is just RhinoCAM with some basic parametric CAD functions added. I'm trying the Demo ATM it looksl like it has good toolpathing. Since the demo does not allow it to be exported or saved to use in G-code it just looks pretty Vectric's Aspire is just great to begin with but unfortunately I was misinformed by the sales rep.
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  #65  
Old Thu 25 December 2008, 09:49
normand blais
Just call me: Normand
 
montreal
Canada
Ah those sale's rep working even on holiday . Anyway it did not make any sense Vetric aspire is a cadcam software why would they need to plugin with
Rhino (cad) or mecsoft (cam)
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  #66  
Old Thu 25 December 2008, 09:59
gmessler
Just call me: Greg #15
 
Chicago IL
United States of America
Sean,

We're men.......Neeeever admit to reading the manual
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  #67  
Old Thu 25 December 2008, 10:30
normand blais
Just call me: Normand
 
montreal
Canada
What manual???
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  #68  
Old Thu 25 December 2008, 10:44
smreish
Just call me: Sean - #5, 28, 58 and others
 
Orlando, Florida
United States of America
I just asked where the manual was....I wasn't really going to read it! Merry Christmas.
I have about 10 manuals in front of me trying to located the battery hatch for all the santa toys that have arrived at the house.

Back to kids and xmas joy.
SEan
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  #69  
Old Thu 25 December 2008, 21:12
jeady
Just call me: Jason
 
Detroit, MI
United States of America
The sales rep I got must have been trying to get a bonus or something. I would call Rhino more of a surfacing CAD as that's what it's good at. Which is great for working on the things I like to mill.
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  #70  
Old Fri 26 December 2008, 13:02
normand blais
Just call me: Normand
 
montreal
Canada
Hi Jason
Your right Rhino is a nurbs modeler, not very good at meshs editing. In Rhino when your nurb model is done it is converted to a mesh for toolpathing

Did you try Aspire , I look at the site but did not try the software yet. It look like a kind of high field bitmap, raster to vector software. Put in a picture and it draw the contour and with sculpting pull and push tools you work the volume of your relief. I think Artcam is like that also.It is easy and intuitive . Rhinocam came out with Rhinoart similar approach. These work with mesh and is different than working with nurbs

I had some peoples get me to machine their models made in ZBrush, they are mesh and Rhino take for ever to slice them. These mesh are to big to be converted to nurbs, then rhino could have slice them easily. Zbrush apparently wont slice, so say the kids who send me their monster models. I have try Zbrush http://www.pixologic.com/home.php and shown the basic . It is light year from anything else, different, very intuitive. Look at their galerie of course lots of monster but lots of beauty to. There also is lots of tutorial on youtube for it . For a sculptor it is a great way to work never will Aspire aspire to this level. But Zbrush dont have a cam ,and is not like Aspire a high field bitmap, raster to vector software

All of them have strong points We have to know what we want to do first then what the software can do to chose right. Also there is the cad or design, and the cam aspect to consider and also the price.

That is where it get confusing. What software to do what? Would Aspire be good at precise work with acurate matching parts? Rhino dont handle mesh to well yet...Artcam I dont have a clue...

Would be good to have a objective talk about software not from sale rep but user who design, toolpath and machine

Normand Blais
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  #71  
Old Fri 26 December 2008, 14:10
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
I am interested in hearing what others are using also. I have a copy of ArtCAM and I downloaded a trial version of Aspire. They each do their thing a little different. I am still in the learning curve on both. I think I will be buying Asprie because of its price.
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  #72  
Old Fri 26 December 2008, 19:53
jeady
Just call me: Jason
 
Detroit, MI
United States of America
I have the demo of Vectric's Aspire, Vcarve pro, and cut3d. The cut 3d program is nice Vcarve and Aspire are quite similar. The Vectric products should be similar to ArtCAM as the guys that created the programs came from ArtCAM.

Normand,
That sounds pretty much the way those programs work you can import a picture and create toolpaths to cut it out if you wanted. I have not played with them too much as I am tweaking my machine and adjusting things. I'm learning as I go. I find that most of the products out there will do a vast amount of things well. I just have a hard time deciding on what is easiest for me to learn in the fastest amount of time.

As for what software to use it depends on what you want to accomplish and what you have to work with. I find that I tend to use any CAD style programs to do the majority of my setup and the CAM programs just to generate G-code. I know that's not the best way to do that as I should be using the best parts of both to make life easier and faster.

Last edited by jeady; Fri 26 December 2008 at 19:57..
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  #73  
Old Fri 26 December 2008, 23:23
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
For those playing with 3D programs before actually getting their MM's into production, my standard old story. . . . .

Your quickest way to earning money is to cut boring old 2D stuff. Cut boards into shapes, preferably curved shapes, stuff that guys cannot do on table saw. Sign letters, movie sets, décor, flat-pack furniture and toys, etc.

I think it is not wise to focus on buying and learning 3D programs if you plan to go into production with a MM but don't have a market yet. If your first clients are going to want 3D stuff, you are probably going to make a loss.
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  #74  
Old Sat 27 December 2008, 08:15
smreish
Just call me: Sean - #5, 28, 58 and others
 
Orlando, Florida
United States of America
For the past year I have been using the boring, yet effective Lazy Cam for all my 2d simple stuff. The Rhino purchase evolved from a well paying contract that requires our company to make "many" 3D life size statues.
The CAM options for a well suited and "easy enough" to use 4th axis package is limited, thus I chose RHinoCam.

I have access to laser scan meshes of the statues and all I am is reproducing them, adding a little fiberglass and viola! Statues.

The total investment in the 4th axis, new z-slide and software is about 6,000$ About the cost of the MM new! Thank goodness the machine paid for itself by last August. Yes, less than 6 months in my shop and it was fully paid off.
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  #75  
Old Sat 27 December 2008, 08:42
Greg J
Just call me: Greg #13
 
Hagerman, New Mexico
United States of America
For what it's worth ....

I may have my first, couple of paying customers. The first is a sign for a local insurance company. The second is a custom screen door. I've done no active marketing and only word of mouth.

Both are 2D jobs. I have to say though, what caught their attention and interest was the 3D leafs. Showing a potential customer a 3D sample is a good marketing tool.

A 2D sample makes a good marketing tool, but a 3D sample grabs and holds a potential customer.

You may not start out with 3D, but I'll bet, you'll be wanting to go 3D, months after your MM is up and running.
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  #76  
Old Sat 27 December 2008, 19:38
servant74
Just call me: Jack
 
Nashville (Tennessee)
United States of America
Aspire - my take

I happened to attend a meeting when Aspire was being demo'ed by the author. It seems to be a great, but high $$ for my wallet, program. If you are doing 3-d signs or architectural stuff and need more of a 3-d drawing program, that uses all kinds of 3-D clipart, and you can mesh, move, meld, filet for transition, it is a FANTASTIC program.

If you need something for 3D parts that need specific dimensions, and 'engineering' like drawings, Aspire is NOT your program.

It can fill a need to put lots of 'art' into 'engineering' drawings if you need that kind of thing. Like design drawer fronts to work in something else, then use Aspire to put sea shells and unicorns with pictures of children mixed on the drawer fronts and other pieces.

At least that is my '10,000 foot' overview.

Even the person demoing the software said he spent days getting his 4 hour presentation to work smoothly. He designed an oval plaque from scratch. Put words on it to V-cut, then put shells, and fleurdelis kinds of things. And took it all the way to g-code (actually ShopBot code since that was the conference I attended).
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  #77  
Old Sat 27 December 2008, 20:00
riesvantwisk
Just call me: Ries #46
 
Quito
Ecuador
Send a message via MSN to riesvantwisk Send a message via Skype™ to riesvantwisk
out of curiosity, any OSX users out there? I know vector works is available on OSX, but that's all I know really...
In the past I have used Pro/Engineer a bit, but since I moved out of NL into EC and switched to OSX I am kinda lost

Does anybody know a CAD program that is parametric by design? I did try Sketch-Up one day, but that feels like MS Paint compare to Adonbe Photoshop and I don't call that really a serious tool. But I do like that fact that I can build something on my computer and know it will work.

Ries
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  #78  
Old Wed 31 December 2008, 07:57
normand blais
Just call me: Normand
 
montreal
Canada
Your right Gerald for most MechMater there will be much better money making 2d stuff .And for that, all one need is a regular inexpensive cad and cam software. Doing like you say, stuff that guys cannot do on table saw.


This only for the ones who want to do 3d and live the life of poor rebel artists

Eventualy when cnc is well establish (exemple http://www.gorillacnc.com/general_cnc_pro )we will say do stuff that guy dont usualy do on their cnc. Changes are happening fast, remember wizzard software, they mature into "Pro and Master". Maybe Aspire is delcam's way to get another part of the market with pretty much the same, at a lower price? Also many cadcam software galerie are compose of 3d scans of handmade sculptures.

Long ago , the painter portraitist spend his life mastering his art.Then the photograph came and he was able
with not much artistic skill to do a perfect lookalike portrait in no time. Then there was the camera for the mass.

The same thing is starting to happen to sculpture today, anybody can get a software put in a picture and get a 3d result. If one wants to stand out from the mass there a need to be always one step ahead. That is why I mention zbrush ,here in Montreal we have a big animation industrie many peoples are working with these specialise software
actualy mostly kids and young people. It seem like they have not made the connection with cnc yet. Like cnc guy have not connect yet with real 3d software .
Normand Blais
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  #79  
Old Wed 31 December 2008, 09:54
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
The 3D softwares mentioned above enable one to do two things:

a. - Design in 3D (CAD)

b. - Machine a 3D design on a CNC machine (CAM)

It is part a. that makes the software expensive. In reality, as CNC machine owners, we will often be asked to cut the designs of our clients. We ourselves are not essentially the designers, we are only the machine operators. For that we can make better money by have good CAM programs only.

The entertainment industry designs their characters and movie sets in one family of software, the boat guys design their rudders in something else, and architects do their terrain models in something completely different again. If you have been caught up in the fun of building and owning a MM, decide if you want to be a architect, movie effects designer, naval architect, etc. before discussing one 3D CAD/CAM package over another. As I see it there is not a single 3D CAD/CAM program that stands out above the rest for all industries . . . . . . and there is not a single 3D CAD/CAM program that will turn us into designers for all disciplines overnight. These 3D packages are horrendously expensive and what you buy today is probably overtaken by something else in 3 year's time.
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  #80  
Old Wed 31 December 2008, 10:28
normand blais
Just call me: Normand
 
montreal
Canada
Hi Gerald
I start to get the picture 2D cad for 2d stuff
3d cad different for the application desired I mention Zbrush because it is one of the leading in pure art no boat no architec no mecanic part possible with it only art .Ok it has no cam but at $599 it is not that expensive considering what it can do .Again only if you are into art
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  #81  
Old Sun 01 February 2009, 08:47
normand blais
Just call me: Normand
 
montreal
Canada
Hi ,again on zbrush Yesterday I found this many year old link about cnc on zbrush forum. Here we have a forum on cnc with little info on 3d software. There they have a forum on 3d art software with very little on cnc ,but how informative . I am starting to figure out the difference between mesh, quad ,nurb ,polysurface and why the need to work with many softwares to get the best result .
Normand

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=31642
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  #82  
Old Fri 29 May 2009, 06:39
bradyaero
Just call me: Greg #19
 
Smiths Falls, Ontario
Canada
Another aspect of 3D design that might be important to a designer is whether or not the software is parametrically driven.

With Rhino, you get the best 3D surfacing tools out there. The downside is that you can layer your model, but there are no relationships between the different parts of your model.

With Solidworks / CATIA you create 'dimensional relationships' within your model, so that say you decide to extend it by 2cm, the part will auto-adjust based on how you defined those relationships, with Rhino you could try to stretch but you will be most likely re-drawing parts of your model. Not a big deal as Rhino's tools are so good, but something that is worth mentioning.
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  #83  
Old Fri 29 May 2009, 08:33
riesvantwisk
Just call me: Ries #46
 
Quito
Ecuador
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The good thing is that Rhino is just plain cheap, but it lacks some capabilities, but luckily they are always not needed...

I know that solid works used to lack a lot of tools for surface modeling tools and accurateness, some people belive that's still true. I am not sure what the status is right now.

At the company I used to work we used PTC Wildfire (it was a yacht yard, nothing is straight there...) which both handles parametric constrains AND surface modeling very well.

However, looking at the sort of work the mechmate is doing I don't think anybody really needs wildfire, Solidworks and/or Rhino. (many be rhiono for the special shapes??)

However, if you are in the sort of business where you make a lot of custom sizes from standard components for example make this nice kitchen cabinet 2cm larger, then it beats Autocad and similar tools hands down for speed of development. We spend over 100K on training, tools and computers for 2 work places and our ROI was within a little over a year...

Ries
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  #84  
Old Fri 29 May 2009, 11:17
normand blais
Just call me: Normand
 
montreal
Canada
free parametric module for Rhino http://www.grasshopper3d.com/
Normand
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  #85  
Old Mon 21 September 2009, 08:40
normand blais
Just call me: Normand
 
montreal
Canada
South African rhino
http://www.simplyrhino.co.uk/about/RSA.html
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  #86  
Old Mon 21 September 2009, 08:42
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Thanks Normand
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  #87  
Old Sat 14 November 2009, 04:00
esadaddy
Just call me: LLoyd
 
Atlanta(Ga)
United States of America
I have used Rhino,Artcam,Zbrush and AutoCad. I am a journeyman machinist and tool and die maker who turned cnc programmer and 3d modeler. I have found that the job determines the program to use. 85% of the time I had to use multiple programs to get the results I wanted. I have even had to use corel draw many times in my 3d cnc projects. Example: Zbrush can produce better and finer textures such as snake skin but Artcam has nice relief features that enable an offset thickness to easily be placed on a model. So depending on the job, one may need numerous programs. How will one know when? I believe Geralds answer was suitable. Stick with basic 2d cuts until there is a real need for another software. Use that specific job to learn what software works best. Mentaly log that experience etc. Thats pretty much the way it goes.
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  #88  
Old Mon 08 February 2010, 07:12
normand blais
Just call me: Normand
 
montreal
Canada
Here is a good link to Rhino3d tutorial and also the mind twister grasshopper plugin
http://www.digitaltoolbox.info/
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  #89  
Old Mon 15 February 2010, 14:24
smreish
Just call me: Sean - #5, 28, 58 and others
 
Orlando, Florida
United States of America
Lloyd.
Perfect analogy.
My "normal" day of creating files usually goes like this:
- autocad
- coreldraw
- autocad again
- rhino
- may vertric 3d,
then to mach 3.

Yep - do what it takes,
Sean
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  #90  
Old Mon 15 February 2010, 14:32
riesvantwisk
Just call me: Ries #46
 
Quito
Ecuador
Send a message via MSN to riesvantwisk Send a message via Skype™ to riesvantwisk
@All.

I got a mail from Alibre, there CAD/CAM package is on sale:

Discount till February 28th 2010
Alibre Design Pro with Annual Support and Version Upgrades (Old price $1848) Discounted to $644
Alibre Design CAM with Annual Support and Version Upgrades (Old price $1299) Discounted to $1049
Total Cost $1693

Sounds like a very nice deal.

Ries
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