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  #1  
Old Thu 09 July 2009, 22:24
m_leblanc
Just call me: MARS
 
SHAWINIGAN
Canada
Working with CAM Software - Shawinigan, Canada

Hi to all
I have been reading on this forum for some time and finally made up my mind on building a Mechmate table with some modification, it won't only be a table, it will also be use has a lathe (Ornamantal mill) for now I am trying to gather up what I will be using as motors, drives, PS but for the breakout board I'm a bit confuse. This is what I come up with:

5- G203V from Geckodrive
4- KL34H280-45-8B 640 OZ/IN Keling Technology
1- KL34H295-43-8B 906 OZ/IN Keling Technology for the A axis
PS-PS-8N65R12R05 ANTEK PS 800VA 65 VOLTS,12 AMPS, 5 AND 12
REGULATED

It's going to be a 4 axis with 5 motors and drives two motors on the Y axis.

Some people recommended the C23 from CNC4PC, a bit expensive but is it the only way to go ?

Thank you
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  #2  
Old Thu 09 July 2009, 22:57
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
This post was first in the Control Systems section, but I thought the title and question to be too vaque to merit its own thread over there.
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  #3  
Old Fri 10 July 2009, 07:38
Richards
Just call me: Mike
 
South Jordan, UT
United States of America
The PMDX-122 can handle the job. It is capable of driving two motor per axis, so you could connect the two 'Y' axis motors to the same step/direction/common signals on the PMDX. (You would have to change the wiring to one coil on one motor so that it ran in the opposite direction of the other motor.)

I'm wondering about your choice of Power Supply. The KL34H280-45-8B motor is rated at 2.2mH half-coil/parallel/unipolar and 8.8mH bipolar series. The 2.2mH value computes to 47VDC maximum. The 8.8mH computes to 94VDC, which would have to be lowered to 80V or less to work with a Gecko product.

The KL34H295-43-8B motor is rated at 3.3mH or 13.2mH, depending on the way you wire it. That motor could handle up to 58VDC when wired unipolar/parallel/half-coil. Series wiring would be limited to 80VDC because of the Gecko G203v.

I would use a 40 to 45 volt power supply and then wire the motors either half-coil or parallel. The larger 'A' axis motor would either need its own power supply, or it would run at reduced voltage if it used the same power supply as the smaller motors.
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  #4  
Old Fri 10 July 2009, 11:59
m_leblanc
Just call me: MARS
 
SHAWINIGAN
Canada
Hi Gerald
Sorry for not posting in the appropriate section.

And now to Richards, about the PS that I have been thinking on when I wrote the specs voltage is 65 DC http://www.antekinc.com/ps.html, the reason why I have chosen this particular PS was the two regulated outlets at 5 and 12 volts for the BOB and cooling fans.

Unless I have been missing or misunderstanding things, aren't the G203V have the capability to lower the voltage that goes to the motor.
The KL34H280-45-8B needs 47VDC
The KL34H295-43-8B needs 58VDC and the PS is 65VDC, so why should I need a second PS to operate the KL34H295-43-8B at full capacity.

Building the table, I don't think that I will have any problems but when it comes to the electronics I'm not at my best, a lot to learn down the road

Thank you both for your reply
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  #5  
Old Fri 10 July 2009, 18:03
Richards
Just call me: Mike
 
South Jordan, UT
United States of America
There may be a misunderstanding about voltage, current and watts (heat). Yes, you overdrive a stepper motor (higher than recommended voltage) and then compensate by reducing the current that the G203v allows a motor to draw by changing the current-limit resistor. If you do that properly, the total watts produced by the motor will be within tolerance.

Let's use an example for the KL32H280 motor:


MAXIMUM VOLTS = 32 X SQRT(2.2mH) = 47.46

WATTS = 47.46 Volts X 4.5 Amps = 213.57


So, in an ideal world, your motor could use a power supply rated at 47.5V while producing about 213.57 Watts of heat.

Let's see how much current we would have to loose before that motor, when attached to a 65V power supply, only produced 213.57 Watts.


AMPS = 213.57 Watts / 65 Volts = 3.28

3.28 Amps / 4.5 Amps = 73% of optimal current

73% of 465 oz*in = 339 oz*in


So, you can compensate, but like they say, "There's no free lunch". Because of the heat problem, you will have to give up 27% of the motor's torque.

As a point of comparison, a PK296A2A-SG7.2 motor, which has 1.5mH Inductance, could use a 39.2VDC power supply. At 3A, that would equate to about 117 Watts. When I run that motor with a 35VDC power supply wired half-coil, I get about 65 C. Granted, Oriental Motor underrates that motor because of the gearbox, but even if it were rated at 4.5A, it would produce about 175 Watts. If we understand Mariss's formula, he was trying to hit about 80C to 85C, so with full torque and maximum computed voltage, the PK296 motor (when run at full current) would probably hit at least 80C at 175 Watts.

Your motor will draw produce about 213 Watts (when wired half-coil or 313 Watts if wired parallel). Using a little math:

80mm length of KL32H280 motor / 66mm length of PK296 = 121.2%

121.2% X 175 Watts = 212.1 Watts


So, the math seems to show that your motor could handle about 213 Watts and still stay within a safe (but hot) temperature range. You would end up with a motor that would probably require an auxiliary belt-drive transmission in order to handle the load of a CNC router.

Personally, I would choose a 40V to 45V power supply and buy a small auxiliary power supply to handle the secondary voltages required by the system.
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  #6  
Old Fri 10 July 2009, 19:40
m_leblanc
Just call me: MARS
 
SHAWINIGAN
Canada
Hi, like I wrote in my last post, I have a lot of things to learn in electronics and I'm still convince about this.
A little correction about the KL34H280-45-8B, it's a 640 instead of 465 oz/in, this doesn't change the way to calculate the optimal current.

Now about the KL34H295-43-8B that needs 58 volts, could it be that the 40 or 45 would be to low?

At Antek I might have spotted another PS "There's no free lunch" like you said, it is the PS-6N56R5R12 56 volts, 10 amps with a 5 and 12 regulated volts outputs.

AMPS = 213.57 Watts / 56 Volts = 3.81

3.81 Amps / 4.5 Amps = 85% of optimal current

85% of 640 oz*in = 544 oz*in

Would this PS be a better trade off?

For the PMDX-122 BOB that you mention, can I connect two LPT port in case I should need extra inputs and outputs in the future without starting everything over again.

Thank you for sharing your time and knowledge

P.S. For the KL34H295-43-8B I have intention of adding a gearbox to it 10:1, can this have an influance on the PS and the four others 640 a reduction belt drive of 3to4:1 ratio

Last edited by m_leblanc; Fri 10 July 2009 at 19:47..
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  #7  
Old Fri 10 July 2009, 21:12
Richards
Just call me: Mike
 
South Jordan, UT
United States of America
Let's run the numbers on the parallel wired KL34H280-45-8B with a 56VDC power supply. That motor can pull 6.4A, so:

MAXIMUM Voltage = 32 X SQRT(2.2) = 47.46V

WATTS = 47.46 Volts X 6.4 Amps = 303.7W

303.7W / 56V = 5.4A

5.4A / 6.4A = 84.4%

You would loose about 15% of the available torque.

The KL34H295-43-8B motor pulls 6.1 A with 3.3 mH of Inductance, so it can use a 58VDC power supply. With a 58V power supply, it could produce 353 Watts! If you wired it half-coil (640 oz*in of torque), it could produce about 250 Watts.

For comparison, my favorite motor is a PK299-F5.4A from Oriental Motor. It is very similar in specs to the KL34H295-43-8B. It has slightly lower inductance, but it develops the same torque and pulls about the same current. With a 50VDC power supply, and when wired half-coil, that motor runs comfortably at 60 to 65C. I would assume that you would get the same results with the KL34H295-43-8B motor wired half-coil running from a 56 or 58V power supply.

Given the choices that you listed, I would buy five of the KL34H295-43-8B motors. I would wire four of them half-coil and one of them bipolar parallel. Total current would be (4 X 4.5) X 6.1 = 24.1 Amps. Depending on how hard you drive those motors, you should use at least a 16A power supply, probably more.

AnTek has the PS-10N56R5R12 which gives 18A at 56V, 5V at 1A and 12V at 1A. They also have the PS-10N50R5R12 which gives 20A at 50V, 5V at 1A and 12V at 1A. Personally, I would go with the 50VDC power supply so that the motors ran a little cooler.

The PMDX can only connect to one parallel port; however, you could use two PMDX-122 boards if you installed a PCI slot parallel port (or used the smooth-stepper). I have tried two PMDX-122s in one computer and found that they ran just a little rough compared to using just on PMDX. I only ran the test for about an hour, so I really didn't try very hard to tune things up properly.

-----

Somehow I overlooked your statement about the 10:1 gearbox and the 3:1 or 4:1 belt drives. With that kind of reduction, I would still buy the KL34H295-43-8B for all axes, but I would run it half-coil. With a 3:1 belt-drive, you would have 1,900 oz*in of torque. That's almost exactly what I ended up with on my Shopbot PRT-Alpha when I added 3:1 belt-drives to the AS911 motors. Those motors only had 1,000 steps per revolution, so anything that you run with a Gecko would have 2X better resolution; however, they did an excellent job with plenty of torque. The 10:1 gearbox would give you more torque than you could ever use with any cutter that I've ever tried. Depending on the diameter of the work, you would probably have very good resolution.

So, bottom line, going strictly from the data sheets and not from any personal knowledge about those motors, I would go with the KL34H295-43-8B motors all wired half-coil and the 50VDC 20A power supply from AnTek.
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  #8  
Old Fri 10 July 2009, 23:21
m_leblanc
Just call me: MARS
 
SHAWINIGAN
Canada
That's what I was my thinking in the first place about five KL34H295-43-8B, but after reading the post that Gerald did on the big motors (800oz/in +) this made me looking for something else except for the A axis, I know that fiddling with different type of motors is a hassle and more over you have prove it to me.

I will follow your recommendation, next step, the shopping cart.

Well not quiet about the G 203V is that the right choice

Thank you very much for your help
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  #9  
Old Sat 11 July 2009, 06:54
Richards
Just call me: Mike
 
South Jordan, UT
United States of America
I'm not sure if I understand the question; however, I would recommend the G203v. It is an excellent device. I have used the G202, which is also very good, but the G203v is a better design. It runs cooler. It can handle "accidents" better without being destroyed. It has an LED that turns yellow when the motor is being driven too hard or too fast. I have ten of them. For any motor that pulls more than 3A, the G203v is my first choice.

(If a motor pulls 3A or less and if the motor can be run at 50V or less, I might decide to use the G540.)
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  #10  
Old Sat 11 July 2009, 12:39
m_leblanc
Just call me: MARS
 
SHAWINIGAN
Canada
Yes buy the way you answered the question you have understood it correctly,I was talking about the 203V and has you mention it can It can handle "accidents", it's realy made for me.
Thank you
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  #11  
Old Mon 07 September 2009, 08:37
m_leblanc
Just call me: MARS
 
SHAWINIGAN
Canada
Hi, I have no knowledge about electronics and need help for connecting my BOB, drivers and motors.
The BOB is a MPDX-122 http://www.pmdx.com/Doc/PMDX-122_Manual_111.pdf
Drivers: Gecko G203V https://www.geckodrive.com/upload/G2...V-7-MANUAL.pdf
Motors: Keling Technology, Inc part number KL34H295-43-8B http://www.kelinginc.net/KL34H295-43-8B.pdf one of them will be connected parallel and the others unipolar on the motors there is 8 wires and most likely there are some of them that needs to be join together and after this witch one goes where,The wire that I’m thinking on using is a 20 gauge, 6 leads + a ground and it is shielded is this the right wire.
The last thing I want is to blow some smoke and this is why I’m asking for help
Thank you
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  #12  
Old Mon 07 September 2009, 11:00
Richards
Just call me: Mike
 
South Jordan, UT
United States of America
For the bipolar parallel motor, do the following:

Connect the Blue wire and the Yellow wire to Terminal 3 (Phase A) on the G203v
Connect the Red wire and the Green wire to Terminal 4 (Phase /A) on the G203v
Connect the Brown wire and the Orange wire to Terminal 5 (Phase B) on the G203v
Connect the Black wire and the White wire to Terminal 6 (Phase /B) on the G203v

For the unipolar (half-coil) motors, do the following:

Connect the Blue wire to Terminal 3 (Phase A) on the G203v
Connect the Red wire to Terminal 4 (Phase /A) on the G203v
Connect the Brown wire to Terminal 5 (Phase B) on the G203v
Connect the Black wire to Terminal 6 (Phase /B) on the G203v

Tape off or isolate, individually, the other wires. DO NOT let uninsulated stands of those wires touch anything!

In the PMDX-122 manual, refer to Table 1 in Section 2.1 for instructions on which wire goes where when connecting the PMDX-122 to the Gecko G203v stepper drivers. Just connect the Direction conductor on the PMDX-122 to Terminal 8 on the G203v, the Step conductor on the PMDX-122 to Terminal 9 on the G203v, and Common (GROUND) on the PMDX-122 to Terminal 10 on the G203v.

Connect the (+) PLUS side of the stepper power supply to Terminal 2 on the G203v. Connect the (-) MINUS side of the stepper power supply to Terminal 1 on the G203v.

After you properly configure Mach 3, the stepper motors will do whatever you ask them to do.
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  #13  
Old Mon 07 September 2009, 13:04
m_leblanc
Just call me: MARS
 
SHAWINIGAN
Canada
Thank you for the info, to make sure that I understand this, all I need is a 4 strand + ground cable from the motor to the drivers for both unipolar and parallel settings. The ground will be to ground the motor to the control box
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  #14  
Old Mon 07 September 2009, 13:52
Richards
Just call me: Mike
 
South Jordan, UT
United States of America
If you configure the wires properly at the motor, you will only need four conductors plus a ground wire. The bipolar parallel wiring requires eight wires plus ground, but those eight wires/conductors can be consolidated into four wires at the motor.
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  #15  
Old Mon 07 September 2009, 16:13
m_leblanc
Just call me: MARS
 
SHAWINIGAN
Canada
Thank you for the quick reply
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  #16  
Old Tue 03 November 2009, 15:18
m_leblanc
Just call me: MARS
 
SHAWINIGAN
Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richards View Post
The PMDX-122 can handle the job. It is capable of driving two motor per axis, so you could connect the two 'Y' axis motors to the same step/direction/common signals on the PMDX. (You would have to change the wiring to one coil on one motor so that it ran in the opposite direction of the other motor.)

I'm wondering about your choice of Power Supply. The KL34H280-45-8B motor is rated at 2.2mH half-coil/parallel/unipolar and 8.8mH bipolar series. The 2.2mH value computes to 47VDC maximum. The 8.8mH computes to 94VDC, which would have to be lowered to 80V or less to work with a Gecko product.

The KL34H295-43-8B motor is rated at 3.3mH or 13.2mH, depending on the way you wire it. That motor could handle up to 58VDC when wired unipolar/parallel/half-coil. Series wiring would be limited to 80VDC because of the Gecko G203v.

I would use a 40 to 45 volt power supply and then wire the motors either half-coil or parallel. The larger 'A' axis motor would either need its own power supply, or it would run at reduced voltage if it used the same power supply as the smaller motors.
About changing the wiring to one coil on one motor so that it ran in the opposite direction of the other motor, how can I do this.
Thank you
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  #17  
Old Tue 03 November 2009, 15:33
Richards
Just call me: Mike
 
South Jordan, UT
United States of America
Sorry, you caught a typo. What you do is reverse the wires ON one coil. For instance, on my test bench I have four PK268-02A motors connected to four G203v stepper drivers.

Three of the motors have the following:

G203v's Terminal # 3 (A) = Black wire
G203v's Terminal # 4 (/A) = Yellow wire
G203v's Terminal # 5 (B) = Red wire
G203v's Terminal # 6 (/B) = White wire

On the motor that runs opposite:

G203v's Terminal # 3 (A) = Black wire
G203v's Terminal # 4 (/A) = Yellow wire
G203v's Terminal # 5 (B) = White wire
G203v's Terminal # 6 (/B) = Red wire

Your wire colors are probably different. Just swap the wires on terminal #5 and terminal #6 on the motor that you want to run backwards.

Last edited by Richards; Tue 03 November 2009 at 15:37..
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  #18  
Old Tue 03 November 2009, 16:28
m_leblanc
Just call me: MARS
 
SHAWINIGAN
Canada
Thank you for the quick reply, I wasn't sure of the right way of doing this
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  #19  
Old Thu 12 November 2009, 02:00
m_leblanc
Just call me: MARS
 
SHAWINIGAN
Canada
Hi, all my wiring is done,didn't see any smoke I have 49.8 volts on pin 1 and 2 of the G203v. The lights are green on them
When I try to jog the motors vibrates and I can see that they want to move slightly kind of jerking but that's all.
Any suggestion ?
Thank you
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  #20  
Old Sat 14 November 2009, 08:03
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Have a look at Troubleshooting (there are 2 pages) and as an example see Cannot get motor to turn - Mach Ports & Pins setup
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  #21  
Old Sat 14 November 2009, 22:08
m_leblanc
Just call me: MARS
 
SHAWINIGAN
Canada
Problem resolve, the PS wasn't connected properly to the BOB.
I had it connected to pin 5 and 6 while I'm using a regulated 5 volts PS
Thank you all
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  #22  
Old Sun 22 November 2009, 01:46
m_leblanc
Just call me: MARS
 
SHAWINIGAN
Canada
Hi
Another problem, this time it's the limit switches:

The problem that I'm having is that when I make a Ref All Home the limits seems to be slow to react and the axis passes the limits and when it redraws to set the zero it's always inconsistent sometime it won’t even return enough to return over the limit and when I try to move that axis it triggers the limit switch.

My debounce in Mach is set at zero just in case you might ask, the wiring that I'm using are 20 gauge shielded

Any help would be appreciate

Thank you
PS when I manualy operate the switches everything is ok and there is nothing unsual in the diagnostic page in Mach
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  #23  
Old Sun 22 November 2009, 04:59
smreish
Just call me: Sean - #5, 28, 58 and others
 
Orlando, Florida
United States of America
Mars,
First, I would set the debounce to something higher....100-150 min.
Second, What speed are you "seeking" home at? It would set that "jog" speed something around 30ips.(or your mm equiv) Increase the jog speed until you comfortable seek the limit without overrunning. With Mechanical switches like your using, the hysteresis is fairly high, thus slow reaction time.
I don't have Mach Installed here at home, but I will check my .xml file at work tomorrow if you like.
Sean'

Last edited by smreish; Sun 22 November 2009 at 05:01..
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  #24  
Old Sun 22 November 2009, 23:51
m_leblanc
Just call me: MARS
 
SHAWINIGAN
Canada
Thank you for the reply, my problem is resolve, I raise the acceleration to about 15% of the velocity and now it's stop on a dime, well let's say an hair
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  #25  
Old Sun 21 March 2010, 01:52
KenC
Just call me: Ken
 
Klang
Malaysia
MARS, how are things getting on? sounded like you already has your MM running, care to share some picture?
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  #26  
Old Sun 21 March 2010, 10:20
m_leblanc
Just call me: MARS
 
SHAWINIGAN
Canada
Thank you for asking about how I’m doing out. I still have a little problem with one of the motor on the gantry, after running for about an hour or so it stops, after searching for the problem I found out the electrical connection was loose, I will be redoing it and most likely the problem will be resolve.
At the same time I would like to thank you all of the community for the great help, alone I wouldn’t have been able to complete this project.
Unfortunately I don’t have a digital camera for the pics

So far I was using the wizards that I have, but I will have to buy a Cad and Cam software and learn how to use it to be able to use the full possibilitys of the machine

Last edited by m_leblanc; Sun 21 March 2010 at 10:23..
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  #27  
Old Sun 21 March 2010, 12:14
MetalHead
Just call me: Mike
 
Columbiana AL
United States of America
Do you have a cell with a camera? You can email those to yourself and put them up that way. Would love to see pics of your build.
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  #28  
Old Sun 21 March 2010, 18:13
domino11
Just call me: Heath
 
Cornwall, Ontario
Canada
What about a friend with a cell phone or camera? Or get a regular photo and get someone to scan it for you. A serial number could be yours.
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  #29  
Old Sun 21 March 2010, 23:53
KenC
Just call me: Ken
 
Klang
Malaysia
MARS,
I'm sure you know that you can carve photo with MechMate by tracing pix using coral, inscape or other software. There is a good market for this kind of work.
How about invest in a camera, either a compact, a cell with a camera or even a web cam to play with.
I use my cell to take pix & upload to my computer using a USB cord that comes with the purchase.
BTW, we love pix. Do indulge us with your work.
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