MechMate CNC Router Forum

Go Back   MechMate CNC Router Forum > Structure & Mechanics > 50. Toolheads
Register Options Profile Last 1 | 3 | 7 Days Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old Sun 28 September 2008, 18:47
waynec
Just call me: Wayne from White Salmon
 
White Salmon, WA
United States of America
Update on new Chinese Water cooled Spindle

I know I promised pictures, but its too grusome at this moment. Heres the blow by blow to this point.

I received the spindle from HomeshopCNC.com well packaged and in timely fashion. All was as I ordered, and the business owner was responsive and seemed knowledgeable.

The spindle itself seemed to be good quality, particularly compared to the Porter Cable router I'm replacing. It weighed about 16 lbs, and the bearing rotation was smooth and very precise. The VFd was less impressive, but came with a detailed manual and clearly labeled connections, or so I thought.

I got time last weekend to wire it up. I followed the directions to connect two legs of 220V, and ground. But instructions on the grounding weren't clear, so I relied on the schematic. I ended up wiring the ground incorrectly, and I fried the unit instantly when I connected it. ARGGH!

I contacted the company, and Rick replaced the unit same day no questions asked. He had me send a picture of how I connected the power, and then referred me to a tech that helped me get the power connected correctly. That same tech helped me to do the initial programming. Inside a week I had a new controller, correctly wired and programmed to run as a standalone VFD. So far so good.

I had some trouble getting the water pump working. Ended up I had some gunk plugging the inside of the water passage in the spindle. A short blast of 90psi compressed air took care of that, and now my fish tank pump pushs plenty of water thru the spindle.

I've test ran the spindle at full rated speed for about a minute with the water running. It sounded wonderful, like a sewing machine or some other well tuned machine. No horrible whine or growl like my Porter Cable. After one minute, the water was not even beginning to show any warmth, and the spindle was totally cool to the touch. So far so good.

I bought a speed control board from CNC4PC. This board will take the output of Mach3 and convert it to a variable voltage that the VFD will use to vary the speed of the spindle. But that board needs more power than my VFD can provide, so I'm now waiting for a small power supply to provide power.

The VFD has a wide range of settings, most of which won't be used. I can vary the acceleration, ramp up and down the speeds, set starting speed floors, timing for start up and change of direction, on and on. I'll start with simple set up and go back after I learn. The manual is in English, but has been poorly translated and involves some educated guesswork to figure out.

I've spent some nervous hours wondering if I'd spend a bunch of money on a pile of junk. So far that does not seem to be the case. Its spinning, and well on the way to being installed.

I'll try to get some pics posted in the next day or so. Now, where did I put that digital camera?

Wayne from White Salmon
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Sun 28 September 2008, 21:39
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Quote:
Originally Posted by waynec View Post
I've test ran the spindle at full rated speed for about a minute with the water running.
Hope that you spent about 5 - 10 minutes running at about half speed before going for that full speed. The bearings need to warmed up before full speed and/or load.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old Mon 29 September 2008, 04:03
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
Well that's a good bit of information Wayne, do post some pictures, is the spindle manufacturer marked? (is there a name on the spindle?)

RGDS
Irfan
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Mon 06 October 2008, 09:18
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
HI wayne, just saw you having problems interfacing your C6 board (on the cnc4pc yahoo group) with the VFD, how good is it doing. maybe some one in this forum can help.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Mon 06 October 2008, 13:09
kaartman
Just call me: Koning #20
 
Abu Dhabi
United Arab Emirates
Hi Wayne
You convinced me to get the same spindle and VFD from Rick,could you be so kind to post the pictures of how it is done the correct way, and also the tech support information
Thank you
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Tue 07 October 2008, 08:20
waynec
Just call me: Wayne from White Salmon
 
White Salmon, WA
United States of America
Koning, well I'm not fully convinced myself. I still dont' have my spindle installed, and its turing into a PITA. But I have to say the quality of the spindle itself, and Rick's willingness to replace my toasted VFD make me feel OK about this learning curve stuff.

I have a couple pics on my camera, but I'm off to work the day job and won't be able to post them till this afternoon. I'll show you the spindle, the water hookup, and the VFD. Maybe by then I'll be able to get my wiring straightened out and get the thing spinning.

Javeria, I'm still having problems, but getting closer. Right now I'm trying to get output from Mach 3 pins to the speed controller board, and verify outputs from the speed controller board that will go to the VFD.

So far, I get outputs at the step pin and the spindle on pin, but both are very low voltage. With the spindle on and set to 20,000 rpm in Mach 3, the voltage at the input of the C6 is just .25 volts. The spindle-on signal is 3 volts. The output of the C6 speed control board is just 4.2 volts.
Arturo Duncan of CNC4PC thinks maybe I need a Parallel port buffer to bring my parallel port signals up to a full 5v/20ma. The board is $12 and another week. I think I'll try to adjust the pulse width and see if putting the pin to active hi/lo changes anything. Otherwise I'll probably end up buying the buffer board. First a nickle, then a dime.

I'll have some questions on the on/off relay, but I want to check out the circuit continuity first. The light comes on and I hear a click when I apply spindle on voltage, but I get no output voltage from the C6. But I think I'm supposed to get a switch open/closed, not voltage at the output. I assume this means the VFD supplies the voltage to be switched by the relay. I'll have to read the VFD manual on this.

This is actually sort of fun to puzzle out. Its good to have help from people who know, and good to learn this stuff. But it makes me nervous to have a cool $1000 of spindle and goodies not making any parts for me yet. If you have any suggestions, I'd be happy to hear them.

Wayne from White Salmon
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Tue 07 October 2008, 09:15
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
Wayne, dont worry - its always a steep learning curve for all of us. to reassure you read this thread of mine on the zone.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60710
There are a lots of ups and downs and your is not so big one - i assure you - you will figure it out.

what is the model of the VFD, did you try sending out the data sheet for the VFD to Arturo?

My best to you

RGDS
Irfan
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Fri 10 October 2008, 20:06
waynec
Just call me: Wayne from White Salmon
 
White Salmon, WA
United States of America
Follow up on spindle with pictures

OK, finally some pictures.

I hope these are detailed enough to be sensible. I have included a pic of the spindle, a pic of the speed control board partially wired, a pic of the partially wired VFD.
Spindle Top.jpg

C6 Speed Control Board.jpg

VFD.jpg

I'm in the process of getting this wired up. The instructions are less than clear, particularly since I don't know what I'm doing. But I'm getting help from Arturo of CNC4PC, and from the Mach forum. Its gonna work.

So far, I was able to get the Mach 3 output configured to provide the spindle-on signal and the speed control output. The CNC4PC instruction show how to set up Mach 3 to do this, but assumes you have basic understanding of how to set up pins and ports in Mach 3. The instructions include a wiring diagram that show where to connect things on a diagram of the actual cirucit board. Not too tough.

The CNC4PC board converts the Mach 3 spindle step output to the varying voltage the VFD requires. Getting this setup was only tricky because I didn't know how to set up outputs in Mach. A few minutes with the video tutorials got me understanding this.

After checking voltages on the C6 board I found that Mach 3 was sending a very weak output voltage. In checking the output at the parallel port pins, the spindle-on voltage was only 3V. Arturo of CNC4PC suggested that I needed a parallel port buffer to bring these up to a full 5V output. I put the buffer board on today, and this seemed to work. The C6 speed control board is now putting out 9V when Mach 3 spindle speed is set to 22000 rpm. It also triggers the C6 relay when Mach 3 spindle ON button is pressed.

My next step is to figure out what voltage I can safely use to trigger the Spindle-On relay on the VFD. The C6 speed control card provides working relay contacts, but I have to provide the voltage that this relay switches. I think I can pull this from the same voltage that powers the C6 card. I'm not real clear on ground isolation, so I'm reluctant to do this until I hear from someone who knows.

But once I get voltage to that Spindle-On relay I'll be able to control the spindle On/Off and rotation direction with Mach 3. GROOVY!

From there, its do some testing and VFD programming, and start working on a clean install.

I'm getting closer. Thanks for your patience and help here.

Wayne from White Salmon
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old Fri 10 October 2008, 22:06
Doug_Ford
Just call me: Doug #3
 
Conway (Arkansas)
United States of America
Wayne,

That spindle looks sharp. You sure are giving me the bug for one like it. I hope everything works out.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Sat 11 October 2008, 04:10
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
Wayne, I am assuming that the spindle provides the voltage for the switching and you have to only connect the VDF terminals to the relays.

have you downloaded the instructions for connecting different VFD's on arturo's web site?

http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/prod...products_id=58

never mind if you have already read them!

if you have the datasheet of your VFD post it here - I will compare with others.

RGDS
Irfan.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old Sat 11 October 2008, 20:43
waynec
Just call me: Wayne from White Salmon
 
White Salmon, WA
United States of America
Well, I'm still stuck on how to wire the spindle on relay. I have the correct switching action at the controller. I get spindle on relay switching at the speed controller.
But I'm not sure where to get the voltage that this relay switches. The manual shows what the VFD Spindle ON input requires, but I'm not sure where to get that voltage. I think it probably comes from the VFD, but I want to be sure, and to make sure I use the right ground or common as well.
Anyway, I'm very close to getting it going. Thanks for your encouragement. One good thing is that I'll be sure to share this info with this board and with the seller and CNC4PC so others will have an eaiser time getting going.

Wayne
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old Sun 12 October 2008, 00:10
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Wayne, if you tell us which VFD (manufacturer/model number) you are using, or give us a link to an on-line manual, we would have a better chance of helping you.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old Mon 13 October 2008, 14:37
waynec
Just call me: Wayne from White Salmon
 
White Salmon, WA
United States of America
Got er going now

Gerald
Thanks as always for being willing to help.

I contacted the company I purchased from, who sent me to a partner in my neck of the woods that was able to help me by phone. A couple phone calls and I was up and running.

As it turned out, the manual is less than complete and misleading. The VFD connections for the spindle on/FWD provide the voltage, and the relay on the CNC4PC card switches this voltage to ground back on the VFD. Its not tricky once you know that key information about what the VFD does and needs. There was some programming on the VFD, which is also not well explained in the manual. The second phone call got this squared away.

Now its all working correctly. Speed changes in Mach3 give me changes in speed at the spindle. Spindle off/on in Mach 3 turns the spindle off and on. Also, the run and stop buttons on the spindle work, so I can override Mach3 and turn the spindle off by pressing the button on the VFD. I don't have the relay for CCW cutting wired now because I don't use CCW bits. If I did, a second pinout from Mach 3 would latch a second relay on the speed control board, and then on to control the REV input on the VFD.

I ran the spindle for 15 minutes at 15000 rpm to warm it up (thanks Gerald for the reminder). It never got hot at all, and was barely noticeable temperature increase after the warm up period. The water was getting warmer, but not near hot. So I think my fish tank pump will work to provide water flow. So far, so good. I'll have to see if I have enough flow when the tubing is in place. If not, I'll install a pump used to pump water in instant-on hot water systems or solar systems. I know I can get one of these with adequate flow and head.

The spindle is gloriously quite at any speed. Low enough to talk over and not as loud as a sewing machine. I'm sure that moving thru materials will be louder.

So, while this cost a few more bucks that I originally thought, its working and will likely do the job I want. Next will be some pics of the install on my machine. Then some test cuts. Onward!

Hopefully this is useful to folks here at Mech Mate.

Wayne from White Salmon
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old Mon 13 October 2008, 17:08
Robert M
Just call me: Robert
 
Lac-Brome, Qc
Canada
Send a message via Yahoo to Robert M Send a message via Skype™ to Robert M
Thanks for this great info & good to know someone who has the recipe & experience to make those function
Robert
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old Mon 13 October 2008, 21:05
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
Wayne, that was a good write up - just try to sketch up the circuit for us.

good luck for you installation on the router.

RGDS
Irfan
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old Sat 25 October 2008, 22:11
waynec
Just call me: Wayne from White Salmon
 
White Salmon, WA
United States of America
Stil more install details.

I finally got all the bits working. I now have the spindle installed and I'm starting some simple testing.

I got it all wired on the bench first, working out the issues with relays, VFD programming, etc. I got help from the a fellow that the seller recommended that was just what I needed. I got the spindle working thru Mach 3 on the bench in short order.

Today I did the physical installation of the several circuit carts and bits, the spindle, and the water cooling system.

I mounted the speed control card inside my Ascension control box. I also mounted a parallel port buffer card inside. I just screwed these to the chasis, and used standoffs to mount them. I ran the wires thru an opening in the chasis and used wire ties to clean up the install.

Next, I installed an EStop switch on the CNC that is in line with my existing limit switches. The switch is conveniently located to the position I normally work at on the CNC, and stops both motor motion and spindle rotation. This on was overdue, and way easy to do. I got the Estop switch from the same place I got the speed control card from- CNC4PC.com.

Next, I installed an power off paddle switch for the VFD. The VFD doesn't have an emergency off switch, so I installed a simple power off switch with a large OFF paddle so I can shut off power at the spindle if the software or computer locks up. I got the switch from Grizzly tools for less than $15US.

Mounting the spindle was less than perfect, but OK for starters. I'm sure it will be different for Mechmate builders. I removed my Porter Cable router and its bracket, and instlled the new bracket for the water cooled spindle. I got this bracket from K2CnC. It doesn't fit, so I had to use shims to get the spindle to fit the bracket. After some messing about to get the brackets square to the table surface I mounted the spindle.

Next came the spindle wire routing, which went easier than I thought. I removed the Porter Cable extension cord and right in its place installed the new spindle cable and the two tubes for water. The plastic tubing was too short, so I'll have to get some longer pieces to tidy things up, but its no harder than running regular router wiring.

Long story short (too late for that I guess). I ran a test warm up run with the spindle in place, and checked the range of movement of the gantry and Z axis. I was worried that I would get noise from the spindle causing erratic movements of the gantry. So far, this has not proven to be a problem. The gantry and Z axis move while the spindle is operating without a hitch.

During the warm up I touched the spindle several times to monitor the heat. After 5 minutes at 10K r pm the spindle was not as warm as a mug of coffee. No more heat than my Porter Cable. After another five minutes at 18K rpm it was still just warm to the touch.

I checked the water flow thru the fish tank pump, and found a weak stream was making its way thru the loop to my five gallon bucket of water. That stream was not making me feel it was adequate for a full workload of heat. I'm going to follow up on that to make sure I have enough flow. I also discovered that my plastic water tubing is not quite long enough, so I'll have to replace it with lengths that allow full motion and some slack.

Finally, I ran some cutting tests just manually moving the spindle with a half inch two flute cutter thru some MDF. At lower RPMs (5K) it showed some loading at full depth in 3/4 " material. But when I increased RPMs to 12K, the spindle did fine at cutting thru at full depth. The cutter was not sharp, so I'm sure I'll get better performance with more testing and dialing in correct feed and speed settings and a decent bit. More on that tomorrow.

So, thanks all for the help. Its a bit of a technical workout for those of us with less tech experience. But I was able to get the bits of info I needed from the Mach 3 forum and from the seller and his tech support.

It's gonna work. Its WAY quieter than the Porter Cable router, but I can't tell yet if its more powerful. We'll see with some testing tomorrow. Longer term is harder to say. I'm just a hobbiest at this point, so I don't really test a full duty cycle of all day/every day workload.

Thanks for your help and patience, all. If you want some pics I'm happy to provide them. Just let me know. I can also provide some tech details on connections and spindle programming.

Wayne from White Salmon
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old Sat 25 October 2008, 23:41
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
Ya Wayne what ever you can provide - it would be welcome.

and wonderful writeup.

RGDS
Irfan
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old Thu 30 October 2008, 17:27
WTI
Just call me: James
 
Detroit (Michigan)
United States of America
Are you going to run straight water, or are you going to add some anti freeze to prevent corrosion?

Also, are you running the water all the way down to a bucket on the floor?

I have seen where the water just runs to a small radiator on the gantry itself. A closed system, so to speak.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old Fri 31 October 2008, 08:12
waynec
Just call me: Wayne from White Salmon
 
White Salmon, WA
United States of America
WTI
You ask a great question. I'm planning to run tubes all the way down to a five gallon bucket on the floor. I'm thinking to add a larger pump, something with more lift capacity. Probably a Grundfoss 15-42F or the like. This will provide more than enough flow.
The problem I think is the very skinny tubing. Effectively it becomes a big resistor to the water flow. That idea makes you think that a gantry mounted radiator, with its shorter lines, would have less line resistance, and likely need much less pump. True enough. But I'm already halfway down the line with my floor mounted resevoir, so I'll continue this direction and just upsize the pump.

I did get to cut some material. The cuts were in 3/4 MDF, just simple jog movements. There was some chatter, and lots of noise until I increased the RPM of the spindle to proper cutting speed and feed. Then things got much better, quieter and better cut quality. These were not well designed tests, so no conclusions at this point. But it is WORKING.

Also, I'm getting jumps in speed when I move my mouse. I have a wireless mouse, so I want to eliminate this with a tailed mouse to see if this is a simple fix.

I'll be working more this weekend, and will try to take a couple pics of the install. Also, I WILL produce some sort of connection diagram- what a great idea.

Thanks all for your interest and help.
Wayne from White Salmon
The
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old Fri 31 October 2008, 09:16
domino11
Just call me: Heath
 
Cornwall, Ontario
Canada
Wayne,
I have heard lots of horror stories on wireless keyboards and or mice when used with cnc stuff. Have not tried it myself but a lot of people say to stay away. Some brands seem to work better than others.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old Fri 31 October 2008, 12:20
WTI
Just call me: James
 
Detroit (Michigan)
United States of America
http://cnczone.com/forums/attachment...8&d=1196267534

You see many versions of this router, but what I'm pointing out is the radiator for the spindle rides on the gantry.

A small aluminum radiator from a motorcycle would seem like an easy "off the shelf" solution. A small fan could aid the heat exchange and keep dust from coating the unit.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old Fri 31 October 2008, 13:23
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
I think you would all be surprised at how small and simple such a "radiator" can be. Six feet of 1/4" copper pipe wound 8 times around a 3" mandrel, placed in front of a standard fan should be more than enough. The speed of water flow can also be a lot slower than most would expect. Water is an excellent vehicle for carrying heat out of the spindle.

If your water flow fills a beer glass in a whole minute, the water temp will not rise more than 20C [36F] while cooling a 3kW [5HP] spindle that is only 80% efficient and running under full load. . . . if my memory of thermal calcs still serves me right!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old Fri 31 October 2008, 16:47
waynec
Just call me: Wayne from White Salmon
 
White Salmon, WA
United States of America
Gerald, if that calc is true, I may be alright with my fish tank pump. I'll run a little Beer Glass test and see how I do.

I don't typically run the router as a production tool, so the heat issue is not huge for me. One reason I liked the idea of water cooled is because of what you point out- water is a great heat sink and can carry lots more heat than moving air.

If my test runs close, I'll call it good and just monitor the heat at the spindle for awhile.

Thanks for the uh.... calculation.

The new pump would cost me about $80 US, plus fittings, so would quickly put another $100 on the total for this project. If I don't have to, I don't want to.

OH, BTW, I'll be running just water thru the tubes. Its more than enough, and my shop won't get cold enough to freeze up.

Wayne
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old Sat 01 November 2008, 10:29
TonyBert
Just call me: Tony
 
Centreville VA
United States of America
Wayne,

If you are looking for small radiators look at the various computer water cooling suppliers such as DangerDen or car heater cores and if a fan is needed there is always 12 volt muffin fans.

Tony
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old Sat 01 November 2008, 11:38
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
What I would do is to connect the water duct to the water inlet from the overhead tank and route it to the ground tank, the overhead tank has a auto pump switcher - so it will take care of all and there will be water any time, just have to have a automated valve to let water in when spindle starts. In my case its easy bcos i need only minimum plumbing. - I am not sure if a CPU cooler is enough to be used as a cooler for the spindle...

may be with synthetic coolant added it might work better.

RGDS
IRfan
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old Mon 17 November 2008, 20:31
dragonfinder1
Just call me: Dave #49
 
Astoria, Oregon
United States of America
DangerDen coolers

Wayne.

Here's a deal for you. Three of us are getting ready to build MechMates. In exchange for a tour of a operating MechMate we could supply you with a cooling system for your spindle for trial. If it works, it's yours to keep. If not, well your really not out anything.

The guys at DangerDen are sure it will work, the only catch is you have to report back here, works or not.

We live about 3 hours away and could be there any weekend after football season ( we're in the final four, two more weekends hopefully )

Let me know.

Dave
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old Tue 18 November 2008, 05:53
kaartman
Just call me: Koning #20
 
Abu Dhabi
United Arab Emirates
Hi Wayne
Thank you for the information on the spindle setup, I have received my spindle and it does look solid. I bought the PMDX 106 card to control the spindle, hope that the PMDX 122 and 106 will be easier to connect, at this moment am I planning the kitchen table project.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old Tue 18 November 2008, 19:27
waynec
Just call me: Wayne from White Salmon
 
White Salmon, WA
United States of America
But I don't own a MechMate

I'd be happy to take you up on your offer, but I'm sorry to say I don't own a MechMate. I have a modified Shopbot PR, with an Ascension controller and Mach3 software. Its nothing close to the quality of the MechMate, I'm sorry to say.

But if its interesting to see my controller or spindle setup, I'm happy to share what I can.

I'm still not done with the install of the cooling part. I just bought a transmission radiator and I'm waiting for a couple parts to plumb it all. I decided to install a small tank, the fishtank pump, and a small resevoir up at the spindle. This will eliminate the long tubes and allow me to use the parts I have to get good cooling.

Sorry, I feel like a cheater getting all this great info here. But this website is much closer to the type of machine I have than any other site I know of, even the ShopBot forum.

Thanks again GERALD for this great resource.

Wayne
White Salmon, WA
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old Tue 18 November 2008, 21:07
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Wayne, I don't see you as a cheater at all!
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old Tue 18 November 2008, 21:14
dragonfinder1
Just call me: Dave #49
 
Astoria, Oregon
United States of America
Too bad you don't have a MechMate, we wouldn't hold that against you. Too bad I didn't catch you before you bought the tranny cooler. We are interested in the spindle as well as the router since one of us will probably start with a spindle and I will go with one in the near future.

I wouldn't feel like a cheater if I were you, several people here don't have MechMates, but like you, provide a lot of information that help the rest of us.

Maybe we can get together in a few weeks and we'll at least buy you lunch for a tour.

Dave
Reply With Quote
Reply

Register Options Profile Last 1 | 3 | 7 Days Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:48.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.