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  #1  
Old Sun 23 July 2006, 00:42
Mike John
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Evaluation of the AGek

Can anyone evaluate the claims made in this message on the Shopbot Forum?

.........Mike
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  #2  
Old Sun 23 July 2006, 07:27
David Rosenbleeth
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Let me help you out Mike by posting it here:

I just got done spending the day with Dirk Hazelberger rebuilding (ok-watching him rebuilding) my PRT control box with his Gecko drivers board running SB Alpha software and running some tests with my previously stock PRT w/ 5hp Columbo purchased shortly before the Alpha came out. We ended up upgrading my power supply also to a 70 watt system and because my serial port in my stock computer couldn't communicate fast enough with the controller, used a USB adapter to enhance that part of the operation. We did put a high speed serial port card in my computer (a Dell running xp at around 1.67 MH with 512Ram) but had difficulty getting the software to load properly due to a malfunctioning cd drive and so fell back on the USB adaptor for now which actually classifies as the minimum you can go and get effective results.
My jog speed is now 8ips from a previous 3 to 3.5. That was nothing short of thrilling. It was more thrilling when Dirk hooked up his own computer that had the Serial card installed and running smoothly and we were jogging at 16ips plus without losing a single step. To test this I bored a hole in my test board (3/4" virola) and we ran a jogging loop program that took my router all over the table in a zig-zag path for 5-7 minutes and when I returned to the hole it was dead on accurate. I can also tell you that it was running smoother than I had ever experienced before.

The next test was cutting. For this test I ran a part file in the same 3/4" ply that I had run before for a work project using the latest PRT software with a 1/2" carbide compression bit that we had set up to cut at 2.0 ips in two passes.

We steadily increased the speed and lost steps at around 3ips in the y direction. After raising the bit and turning the motors off we determined that the movement of the y car felt more restrictive at the point where the motor lost steps. I feel that a re-squaring of the y-axis and adjusting of the rails (I think my right hand rail has a bit of a curve to it) may allow that 3.0ips to happen, but even with the previous software and controller I rarely cut critical parts faster than 1.5 simply due to deflection of the gantry at higher speeds and the fact that I am extremely picky about close tolerances in part cutting.

I believe, but cannot yet attest to, that with a stiffening of the current gantry by welding the corners and replacing the car with either an alpha "unibody" car or a custom design like Gerald's I will be able to achieve cutting speeds in a higher range through plywood or particleboard and that the current limits are more due to structural challenges than any other cause.
In addition to the somewhat enhanced cutting speed and the highly enhanced jog speed I can also tell you that the smoothness of the cut, even with such a value priced product as virola ply was fantastic on cuts in the x axis, y, axis, small diameter curves, and large diameter curves.

Bottom line is I am fantastically impressed with the improvements made without the requirements to either change out my motors or abandon the SB software I am so used to and appreciate so much.

The improving of the stiffness of the car and gantry, which I figured I would end up having to do before I took this step, is still an important part of the upgrade process but, as a first step, I am truly pleased with the results so far.

I will post a further update to this when the high speed serial card is operating. In the meantime-color me happy: My bot is finally moving closer to the way I thought it should when I bought it.

Dave
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  #3  
Old Sun 23 July 2006, 09:39
Mike John
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Dave
Your performance increase sounds great.
I know you have answered comprehensively, but is this roughly where we stand with the late PRT's?
Introducing the changes you explained improves speed, but we now need to improve the rigidity of the Shopbot (or go the mechmate route) to be able to use these increases properly?
Also does Mach software further improve things?
Is it yet possible to decide on the best PC configuration to operate the software?

..............Mike
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  #4  
Old Sun 23 July 2006, 10:46
Gary Beckwith
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Hey Dave, congrats on your PRT upgrade, I know when I upraded my PRT to the Ascension-1000 system I was astounded at the increase of all round performace that I got out of those little 1 amp stepper motors, its just goes to show what a Shopbot can do.

I noticed you said your upgrade is using a Shopbot supplied Alpha board and SB3 software does this mean support will be through Shopbot?
Or is Dirk producing and selling this upgrade and covering the support?

I will be very interested to see how things go with your software and connection problems. For me, apart from the higher resoulution and better cuts the software and connection became a major issue that I had in upgrading, I can't have a lost connection or software glich in the middle of a cut so when I upgraded I opted for the proven Mach system.
Good luck and keep us posted.
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  #5  
Old Sun 23 July 2006, 13:42
David Rosenbleeth
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First let me give you the route to the horses mouth: www.botrods.com is the link to the site Dirk is developing for his units. Final pricing of his unit is under development. Dirk, in my opinion, has been very meticulous in determining the needs of his unit and will surely handle customer service on an ongoing basis. He would probably already have chimed in here but he made the trip to my place from his in one shot (10 hrs) and then we worked most of the day installing and running the beta tests with different configurations and if he has gotten home yet he's probably asleep right now.

Mike: the increased speed and cutting that SB got with the Alpha required it to have a stiffer car and gantry and I thought that your PRT was so equipped already. Almost any machine (IMHO) that is designed to do one thing and then is souped up is going to need frame enhancements.

Gary: I went with Dirk's board rather than the Ascension, not because I thought the Ascension was inferior, but I appreciate the Alpha board base. I've had Mach II downloaded for quite some time and it is clear that the learning curve wouldn't be all that much except for the challenge of dedicating the time to learn and then train the guys without losing production time.

I wouldn't call the connection speed issue a problem. It is solved to a great extent simply by using the right USB adapter. Since you are now driving the standard PRT geared motors at microsteps you need your computer to communicate faster. The problem I encountered with the High Speed serial adapter card was that I discovered my CD slot was malfunctioniing and we were challenged to finish quickly. I'll get that straightened out this week "on the side" and then be able to load the software for it.

I understand from Dirk (and he is the expert, I'm just an operator) that different computers require different USB adapters but the HS serial card he recommends is more universal. After Dirk discussed with me his previous testing on PR's I was convinced by his sincerity and longstanding relationship with SB (He built the "Megabot" that Ted has spent so much time lately discussing).

At this point I don't expect SB to support this part of my system beyond selling me parts, if necessary, just as I wouldn't expect Ford to cover my truck warrenty if I had their engine reworked by a speed shop.

I don't know that there is a definitive "That's it!!" final answer to what is best as our needs vary so greatly in both variety and value returned by the cost of various modifications. I just want to get the most enhancement I can without major reinvestment or loss of production time. With the speed of technological development I expect that if one wanted to keep up with all of the latest and greatest that would be a full time career in itself.

Dave
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  #6  
Old Sun 23 July 2006, 18:32
Gary Beckwith
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Thanks for the link Dave, Sorry I assumed this was the low cost upgrade board that Dirk and Ted had mentioned in previous postings on the SB forum, missed it in the thread header.
Maybe Dirk will jump in here and let us know about his upgrade. I checked out the botrod website but its limited to telling us its a low cost hybird alpha board with 212 geckos.
I understand from the website and Dave's post above that this is not a plug and play ugrade but a control board change out which also needed a power supply upgrade and a high speed serial port card, are these both included in the upgrade?
Would like to see a bit more info on this upgrade as there is a number of these upgrades available right now.
Of course cost has a lot to do with it especially since you can now buy a 4x8 ez router complete with the same performance for $8800 and its a plug and cut machine.

Dave I would have to disagree with your statement that the connection or connection speed is not a problem. You do any upgrade or add on of anybody's and if it don't run straight out of the gate (box) then you have a problem, that was why one of my questions was who is carrying the suupport on this and of course the follow up question is support available by phone during full working hours? I guess that one would be better answered by Dirk.
thanks gary
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  #7  
Old Mon 24 July 2006, 03:03
Gerald_D
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Also for Dirk....

The website mentions the G212 drive. Why not the G202?

I understand that the G212 is used where the controller can't reach the high frequencies for micro-stepping, and it thus contains a "step multiplier" Are you actually multiplying the steps from your already fast computer?

Thanks
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  #8  
Old Mon 24 July 2006, 04:27
David Rosenbleeth
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Gary: Dirk supplied all of the parts required and also the usb converter cable just as SB does with the Alpha. The serial card was an "option" since some computers already have one. He is actually building complete boxes now and we tested one of those as well. The only reason I didn't take it was that the one he brought with him was his own "test" box and was not as pristine as we would have preferred. The reason I don't consider the communication issue a problem is because Dirk, just like SB and I imagine Ascension, informs anyone of the minimum requirements for the computer. The fact that my cd drive wasn't working, temporarily postponing Dirks preferred method of communication via high speed serial card rather than the usb convertor, is no more than a minor glitch to me and certainly not a problem with the HotBot. I'm glad you got your communication issue straightened out with your Ascension. I see the increase in options for enhancing the PRT as an advantage to owners. With several thousand owners out there I imagine quite a few of them will be evaluating the new options we have.

Dave
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  #9  
Old Mon 24 July 2006, 16:09
Gary Beckwith
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Thanks for the info guys will be watching for future updates I can see a lot of changes and options on the horizon.
Dave just to correct you, I never had any communication problems with the Ascension, it runs parallel port so never got into any of those issues of connection and connection speeds. Matter of fact after taking delivery from the UPS driver it took me around 15mins to switch the box over and I was up and running at 15IPS within 16minutes and have never look back.
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  #10  
Old Mon 24 July 2006, 16:31
David Rosenbleeth
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Gary: I stand corrected. I guess I misinterpreted your statement above "For me, apart from the higher resoulution and better cuts the software and connection became a major issue that I had in upgrading." I'm pleased that you are happy with your new box.

HS Serial software is now loaded and I hope to test tomorrow. Unfortunately my "Van" blasted my surfacing bit to smithereens this morning so more cutting speed tests have to wait for another bit and a resquaring of the gantry. Can't wait till I have a stiff upper unit in.

Dirk: All videos taken of me will require the standard equity negotiation with my agent. I would hate to see someone deciding I was a "bad actor" .

Dave
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  #11  
Old Mon 24 July 2006, 22:35
Dirk Hazeleger
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Here's the video
http://www.botrods.com/Download1.html
Dirk
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  #12  
Old Tue 25 July 2006, 07:04
Paul A
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Hi Dirk
Thanks for the video... it looks impressive.

Do you intend to change over to the Vampire drives when they become available.

Paul
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  #13  
Old Tue 25 July 2006, 09:15
Dirk Hazeleger
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Hi Paul
I plan on switching over fairly soon. The 212s I'm using is somewhat of a waste because I don't need the step multiplier.
Dirk
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  #14  
Old Sun 13 August 2006, 15:50
David Rosenbleeth
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I have finally gotten the high speed serial card installed and working on my computer(delay due to my daily workload lately) and so was able to test rapid move on a jog test program I wrote in which I sent the xy scrambling all over the board in both diaganal, straight x, straight y and z moves. After around 10 minutes of running with the SB3 jog speed set at 16ips it suddenly lost steps in the x. I reset speed to 12, homed, and set off again. After quite a while there was no loss in steps and as far as I am concerned, that completes the test. From an original safe operating jog of around 3ips under my original PRT board and serial port, I have now quadrupled my normal jog speed with the Agek board and a Quatek high speed serial card. Cutting resolution at 1.7 through virola ply in two passes was sweet. I'll probably start cutting in one pass, leaving a skin with a fresh 1/2" down cutter as normal running parameters until I stiffen the gantry and car.

Dave
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  #15  
Old Wed 04 October 2006, 19:16
Harold Weber
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Looks like I'll be one of the first to actually post "before and after" test cut photos when comparing the ShopBot control box to the AGEK control box. I've tried to be as thorough as possible so you can have all the information to judge if this is the upgrade path you want to follow.

Dirk Hazeleger visited my shop and installed his control box on my 120 by 60 ShopBot. With the stock 3.6:1 geared steppers, we were able to jog my machine at a set speed 18 inches per second. This was accomplished by using a high-speed serial card installed in a spare PCI slot in my computer. Keep in mind that my machine has two Z-axes - one with a 30-pound spindle and one with a 20-pound spindle. I've built a longer (x-length) gantry to fit both spindles between the Y-rails. I'm also running 2 Y-motors plus the stiffer (and heavier) Y-rail supports used on the Alpha machine. So there is quite a bit more gantry mass to accelerate and decelerate.

Before running these tests, I went ahead and cleaned all the old grease from the racks and pinions, re-greased, adjusted, and tightened everything to the factory suggested specifications.

We were able to cut 18mm (3/4 inch) Baltic birch in 1 pass at 8 inches per second with Dirk's box and the stock 3.6:1 geared PRT stepper motors. In spite of the higher chip load, the AGEK cut quality looks and feels smoother than that with the ShopBot control box cutting at 3 inches per second. These cuts were made with an Onsrud 60-121 bit and the router spindle running at 15000 rpm. This cut was done as a single full-depth pass through the material.
\

We also cut some circular test parts. After looking at all the test results, I decided I wanted to sacrifice the much higher jog speed to get additional smoothness of cut. The 3.6:1 geared steppers were replaced with 7.2:1 geared steppers. I also decided that while replacing the stepper motors, I would go ahead and replace the pinion gears as well. The photo comparing the old and new pinion gear does not show appreciable wear on the old teeth, but I could see that the faces of the teeth on the old gears were polished smooth. It is tough to tell any difference in tooth shapes because the manufacturer (Browning) has decided to change the amount of the chamfer that is cut at the outer diameter of the gear. \

With the 7.2 geared steppers, and the PRT control box, the speeds were limited to around 2.25 inches per second. To get increased speed with the 7.2:1 geared steppers the AGEK control box was tested. We cut a rectangle in one pass from 3/4 inch plywood at 8 inches per second with no missed steps.

Photos of two other test cuts were taken. A word on the photos is needed. Notice that for all the photos, the parts were held next to one another so EXACTLY the same lighting and camera settings were used to show the differences in cut quality. The primary lighting was located near the horizon and adjusted to MAXIMIZE the appearance of the surface roughness. By putting the light source nearly parallel to the surface and aiming it in the direction of the cut, you get shadows in the valleys along the surface. The parts are stacked in order of increasing smoothness of cut as you move up through the stack of 4 parts. An impartial test person used her fingertips to judge the smoothness of the cuts.

For the test cuts in wood, 8-inch circles were cut from 3/4 inch thick soft maple on a vacuum fixture, and the final pass removed 0.050 inch over the full depth of the parts. The cutter was an Onsrud 60-121 (3/8 inch single flute mortise compression spiral bit).
\

For the test cuts in 1/4 inch polycarbonate, 5 inch circles were cut with the part screwed to a spoil board, and the final pass removed 0.050 inch over the full depth of the parts. The cutter was an Onsrud 64-024 (1/4 inch downward spiral single flute Super O bit).
\

I see that some folks have been switching from the ShopBot controllers because they have been losing connections between their computers and the controllers. Dirk told me that if I wanted to use the high speed serial card he recommended, I would need to get rid of Windows 98SE and move to Windows XP. When I did this, I too started to have those mysterious "connection with tool lost" messages. I followed most of the advice in the document that Gerald has suggested on optimizing Windows (I did NOT alter the Registry items), and have not had any further problems with lost connections (Thanks Gerald).

The additional speed and smoothness of cut obtained with the AGEK box and the 7.2:1 geared steppers will allow me to take on work that I previously was unable to do. Your needs and mileage may vary................
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  #16  
Old Wed 04 October 2006, 22:46
Gerald_D
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Good Morning Harold

All very good stuff! That document I suggested is from this source: http://www.machsupport.com/optimisation%20XP.txt - it looks a bit shortened from the last time I saw it.
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