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  #61  
Old Thu 10 September 2009, 17:34
Doug_Ford
Just call me: Doug #3
 
Conway (Arkansas)
United States of America
I don't know if I'll be much help Nils. This might be a case of the blind leading the blind. I'm no whiz on the electrical stuff but I'm happy to try to assist.

Sorry I didn't answer you before now but I've been working on a research paper all day long.

Thanks for adding your post too Heath.

Take your time Nils. Unless you've got the money to buy a new computer or a Smoothstepper right now, there is no point in rushing through this. You'll just make a mistake or overlook something.

What happened when you changed the wires and made the diagonal cut? Was it smoother?

I looked at a stack of objects I cut out the other day and they had a diagonal cut on them. All of them had a slight pattern. I'd never noticed it before because I always sand them down.
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  #62  
Old Thu 10 September 2009, 17:38
shaper
Just call me: Jed
 
Perth, WA
Australia
Nils

Sorry to but in especially since I'm not any sort of authority on any of this but it just seams to me that a couple of likely things have been skipped here. The first response to this question was that it is likely a mechanical issue, am I correct???

It would also seam to me that you have inspected the visible mechanics and particularly the bits you built yourself well therefore (by process of elimination) if it's going to be a mechanical issue it's going to be somewhere you haven't looked or can't see my first port of call here would be your gear boxes. Have you tried the test that Gerald suggested in post #47, simple fast effective but you didn't give any feedback (maybe you've done this). Also in post #16 Gerald suggested that this types of thing is accentuated with small bits (I'm assuming lower pressure against the gantry and therefore the motors), Have you re-cut at larger size to allow use of a larger bit and seen the effect?

On the PC thing (and I'm probably not telling you anything new here) all large financial institutions and large corporates rotate their computer every three years, this means that about now they are tossing the last of their P4's often these are sold to small auction houses for next to nothing and then auctioned of (either on the web or in local sales) I managed to pick one of these up recently for $20 in good nick even had a reasonable quality (though old obviously) graphics card in it, so i wouldn't just overlook the option or purchasing one.

Anyway long story short, 90% of what I have said is probably wrong but that's fine the bigger issues is that there seams to be big holes in the tests you have tried (or the feedback supplied to the group). This likely what is fustrating Gerald, to solve these things you will need to be methodical and with all these ideas flying around it's important to cover off what has and has not been tried. Perhaps now would be a good time to go back over the thread summarise the suggestions and detail which have been tried the results, which have not then you can cover off the issues that have not been addressed.

Sorry for the essay.
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  #63  
Old Thu 10 September 2009, 17:38
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
Thanks to Heath, I was able to run Gerald's suggested test cut in post #46. I actually ran it twice but the first time I forgot to set the speed at 50 IPM.

I created a 3" horizontial line, I used a new .5" O Flute End Mill and the material was solid surface .5" thick and the speed was 50 IPM. The 45 degree cut turned out to be 4" in length. I made two cuts.

Both cuts have chatter but they are closer together and what is even stranger to me is that 2" towards the end of the cut it is smoother though you can see fine chatter lines.

Since I have chatter that rules out the computer?

Since I have made changes to the Z Slide, added the quick change plate and I modified the Gantry V Wheels to sit better and I had chatter before I did all this but not as bad, it would seems to me that I have a set up problem or a mechanical problem of some kind.

I am using 30 teeth pinon gears and others are using 30 teeth but are not experiencing chatter. What is different with my machine?

What do you think my next steps should be to resolve my issue.

I also want to thank all those that have been posting ideas to help me resolve this problem.

Thanks
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  #64  
Old Thu 10 September 2009, 18:04
Doug_Ford
Just call me: Doug #3
 
Conway (Arkansas)
United States of America
Great input Jed.

Yes, Nils. It seems to me that the fact that you still have chatter would indicate that the computer is fine.

I still think it is a resolution problem. The chatter you keep writing about appears to have a pattern. It isn't random. If you had a loose mechanical connection between two pieces, you might get a random pattern. Or if your wheels weren't seated properly on the rails, you might get a random pattern. If you look back at the line Gerald drew, your pattern looks something like that. In my opinion, a smaller pinion might help somewhat and a Smoothstepper would be the best route.

I think the reason that your chatter got worse after you made those mechanical changes is because you tightened things up. Even though you have "chatter" I bet your cuts are slightly more accurate now than they were. The slop in your machine probably obscured the pattern and it simply appeared to be smoother. Just my guess.

I'm not sure that "no one else has chatter problems." Like me, maybe they hadn't noticed before because it didn't matter to them based on what they are using the machine to cut. In other words, if someone was using their Mechmate to cut out parts for a pocketwatch, the chatter you have in your machine would be a problem. However, if that individual was cutting out cabinet parts with it, the chatter wouldn't be a problem.

Last edited by Doug_Ford; Thu 10 September 2009 at 18:08..
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  #65  
Old Thu 10 September 2009, 18:25
bradm
Just call me: Brad #10
 
Somerville(MA)
United States of America
Hmm. I just re-read this whole thread. I think what is being stated is:

- Changing the cut speed has no effect on the chatter pattern.
- The chatter pattern got closer together when you ran the post #46 test.

If that is true, I think you just ruled _in_ the computer. To confirm this without another computer, I propose the following:

Go back to the normal gecko wiring.

Change your computer setup to use 1/2 the current gear ratio settings. Since you are at 3056, go to 1528. This should cause your machine to cut everything at 1/2 size and 1/2 speed, so make your test cut twice as long if need be to see clearly.

If the chatter stays the same, it's mechanical. If it changes (gets closer together, perhaps by 1/2), then you have computer troubles, or gcode troubles.
Note that if it's mechanical, it may be that the smaller pinion will get closer to your expectation. If it's computer, smoothstepper might get closer.

Speaking of gcode troubles, for the simple diagonal test case, can you confirm that it has only 8 (or 4) G1 lines, one for each side? If that gcode file is longer than about 20-30 lines, it points towards something funny.

Also, in any future photos, would you include a tape measure? It may help inspire thoughts in some of our visual thinkers.

Last edited by bradm; Thu 10 September 2009 at 18:29.. Reason: Saw Doug's cross post, wanted to tie thoughts together.
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  #66  
Old Thu 10 September 2009, 21:59
chopper
Just call me: chopper
 
Big Lake Minnesota
United States of America
I know what the problem is, I have had the same issue and resolved it,
Nills if you will put your ADD a side for a few minutes we can get you up and running with greater accuracy,
what is going on is three fold, since you have checked all the physical attributes and are sure every thing is tight, it comes to backlash in the geared motors, I was running the 7.2's and had about 5 to 8 thousands backlash in the gear heads, which is fine in wood no good in aluminum, you need to change the drives to belt drives you can see my posts about this in the Driving Mechanisms, 4 to 1 transmissions for sale? also the larger tooth (30) pinion gears magnify the problem you need to switch the pinions to 20 tooth gears, I would suggest that when going to belt drives you go as big of reduction as possible ( that is why I made the 4 to 1's) the bigger the reduction the smaller the steps the smaller the chatter marks same goes for the pinions.
the rest of the problem lies in the tool head, I believe that you are running the Milwaukee router for this application, I have the same one, you need to get rid of the run out in the tool head, to do this you will need to by new bearings for the router and replace them it is quite simple to do there are threads here an how to do this, but the key is to replace them with better bearings than you currently use, I am on my third set of bearings with about 100 hrs of time on the machine, the bearings that come in the router lasted maybe 8 hours or so, if you are running the factory bearings they are for sure junk by now... I spent more on the bearings than I did buying the router, but by doing this I cut the run out from 8-10 thousands down to 1.5 thousands if you do this you will eliminate most of the chatter and your machine will run quieter with less effort than ever before the same goes for the belt drives once you go belt you wont go back they are far superior, check out the posts good luck//chopper
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  #67  
Old Fri 11 September 2009, 02:19
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
Brad,

I will try the test later Friday. I did look at the G code and there were 8 G1 moves. 4 for Z and 4 for X.

Chopper,

I am not ready to move to belt drives.

I do believe that runout is a problem. I checked the runout again just the other day. Without the router running, I have 4 thousands and I am sure that it is higher with the motor running. I have sent Chopper a PM requesting the part # for the bearings he is using.

I am sure that the bearings that Milwaukee uses are fine for hand routing. I called them earlier this year and asked them what they considered factory runout to be and they had no idea or they didn't want to share that bad number.
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  #68  
Old Fri 11 September 2009, 08:59
chopper
Just call me: chopper
 
Big Lake Minnesota
United States of America
I sent Nils a PM with the info he requested,
but others may not know this that the bearings that come from the factory are not rated for the speed that the router will turn, I believe that the bearings in the Milwaukee were rated for 12,000RPM at best and to accomplish this they add play to the bearings to keep the heat down because the ball bearings are not machined to high tolerances,APDEC 3, by replacing the bearings to a higher APDEC rating the tighter the tolerances get which = less run out,
I am currently using APDEC 7 bearings, I have thought about and actually designed a collet system for my router to eliminate the run out, I am confident that this system will work but I have come to the conclusion that it wouldn't be cost effective, since the price of spindles has come down (Chinese)
to a reasonable price,
the single best improvement I have made to my machine is the belt drives,
the second would be the bearings
//chopper
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  #69  
Old Fri 11 September 2009, 13:55
Doug_Ford
Just call me: Doug #3
 
Conway (Arkansas)
United States of America
I don't want to sound argumentative but how could run out in the spindle be responsible for creating a pattern? I don't mean chatter, I mean a uniform pattern like Nils has.
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  #70  
Old Fri 11 September 2009, 16:40
Leko
Just call me: Leko
 
Kaukapakapa
New Zealand
Doug,

Think harmonic resonance.
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  #71  
Old Fri 11 September 2009, 20:33
chopper
Just call me: chopper
 
Big Lake Minnesota
United States of America
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug_Ford View Post
I don't want to sound argumentative but how could run out in the spindle be responsible for creating a pattern? I don't mean chatter, I mean a uniform pattern like Nils has.
I cant honestly answer this with precise information, all I know is it works,
I think most of the issue is in back lash, but I also believe that both problems magnify each other,
it is not a matter of argument Doug all opinions are welcome, hell I am no deciding factor or guru, I am just trying to share what I have learned with my cnc you can use it or not just like Nils can decide to use the info or not, all I know is since I switched to belt drives and changed the bearings, my cut quality has improved drastically, the bearings were changed since the photos were taken in the 4:1 transmission posts so the cuts are even better than the ones shown
//chopper
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  #72  
Old Fri 11 September 2009, 21:33
chopper
Just call me: chopper
 
Big Lake Minnesota
United States of America
I have had a lot of you ask about the bearings here is the info I have;
the router that I am using is a 5625-29 Milwaukee
the lower bearing is a New Hampshire Ball Bearing
pn: R-104SS KEA7P58 (this is the good one )
www.nhbb.com
tel. 603-924-4100 this is the info off the box,
the original upper bearing is an NSK 608DW this is directly stamped it the bearing
with this info you can cross reference them..
hope this helps,
Charlie
AKA chopper
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  #73  
Old Sat 12 September 2009, 01:05
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
Doug and Jed

I will try to take a picture of the results on post #63. I am responding, your post came at the same time or close to when I posted my results.

I think runout whether that is caused by the collet and / or the worn router bearings is a factor in the quality of cut. Since I am not a mechanical guy, I don't know if it can been seen as uniform pattern like what Gerald high lighted. One of the reason spindles are used over routers is that they have high level of tolerances in the bearings and collets along with the motors are designed for long running applications. Though routers work, they are not designed to be used in a CNC application and they don't have the tolerances. Thank goodness they do work because most of us can not afford the cost of a spindle.

It is possible that I am asking the Router to provide a quality of cut that it is not capable of giving. I think the MM is capable, more than capable. Since I don't have a background or experience in CNC, I want to be sure I have my machine set up correctly and that it is cutting well. That is why when I found the chatter and it seems to have gottern worse after all my modifications, I posted what I found and asked for help.

At this point, I do not believe the computer is a part of the problem.
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  #74  
Old Sat 12 September 2009, 09:41
Doug_Ford
Just call me: Doug #3
 
Conway (Arkansas)
United States of America
I'm not buying the resonance argument when the runout is so small and the pattern looks like Nils' does. Sorry.
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  #75  
Old Sun 13 September 2009, 02:41
Richards
Just call me: Mike
 
South Jordan, UT
United States of America
I had significant chatter with the original non-geared 1:1 motors on my Shopbot. When I installed a 3:1 belt-drive transmission, most of the chatter was eliminated, but, depending on the material, and the type of cut, there was still some chatter. Finally, I replaced the original motors with 7.2:1 geared motors (Oriental Motors ASM98 Alpha motors). I have about the same amount of chatter with the geared motors as I had with the belt-drive transmission.

Both the belt-drive transmission and the geared motors reduced the amount of chatter, but neither eliminated it.

The harder the material (plastic, solid surface material, aluminum), the more evident the chatter. Even MDF shows significantly more chatter than baltic-birch plywood.

(My machine has a Colombo spindle, so run-out is almost non-existent. Chatter "test" were run using a full sheet of MDF being held in place by a 4-zone two-vacuum (FEIN vacuums) system. None of the cuts went entirely through the material, so material movement was not a factor.)

Last edited by Richards; Sun 13 September 2009 at 02:45..
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  #76  
Old Sun 13 September 2009, 09:51
chopper
Just call me: chopper
 
Big Lake Minnesota
United States of America
Richards,
I do not know what is wrong with your machine or what is different about it than mine.
but I went from the 7.2:1 geared motors to the belt drives (mine are 4:1)
I cut primarily aluminum, and the chatter was almost eliminated I had significant backlash with the 7.2's there is no way that the 7.2's are as good as the belt drives at least in my case, maybe it is because your drives are made out of aluminum,plastic, mdf, or some other inferior material other than steel which will flex, or maybe your tolerances in making those drives are to loose I don't know but something is wrong, I am down to 1.5 thousands run out on my router (Milwaukee)
and it appears that is about the amount of chatter I have on my parts,
when I switch out the router for a spindle I believe that I will be close to 0
on chatter marks, currently I have a second machine set up and running the same drives He cuts mdf and is currently having 0 chatter marks while doing so with a porter cable router
I have zero chatter marks in plastic and mdf ( I do not cut much mdf)
the only material that has issue right now is the aluminum and that is my primary material, if I were you and I had a Colombo spindle and some one with a Milwaukee router was getting better or equal cuts I would be looking for what is wrong
//chopper
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  #77  
Old Sun 13 September 2009, 09:59
bradm
Just call me: Brad #10
 
Somerville(MA)
United States of America
Chopper, I think you missed the point that Mike has a ShopBot, not an MM, despite the fact that he's one of the most valuable contributors to the forum. So he has some inherent machine differences that likely explain the difference in your experiences.
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  #78  
Old Sun 13 September 2009, 10:19
chopper
Just call me: chopper
 
Big Lake Minnesota
United States of America
Brad,
I do not get your reply?
if Mikes machine is not the same then why are we comparing to it?
He may be one of the most valuable contributors to this site but that doesn't mean I cannot disagree with what he says, in fact I am not disagreeing I am just stating my findings with my experiences,
and comparing them to what he (Mike) has stated, now if his machine is so different then explain to me how his findings are relevant?
it seems to me you missed the point....
and some how are upset that I have come to a different conclusion,
these are not personal attacks, digs, or anything else, no disrespect intended or implied, towards you or Mike or anyone else, I came here freely to learn and to share what I have learned that is all.
//chopper
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  #79  
Old Sun 13 September 2009, 11:35
Richards
Just call me: Mike
 
South Jordan, UT
United States of America
Chopper,

I know that you are trying to sell belt-drive transmissions. I have no argument with that, but lets look at the inherent weakness with any belt-drive transmission. In the fifteen different models that I designed, manufactured and installed on my Shopbot, the weak point was belt flex. A stepper motor can only have a certain amount of "overhang" or pressure/force on the motor's shaft before problems arise. Browning recommends at least 1/4" of flex in the belt when moderate thumb pressure is applied to the belt. That's the amount that I used with the 150-tooth belts that I used. The second weak spot is the hinge bolt. It has to be loose enough to allow vertical movement of the belt-drive transmission, otherwise you would have to have a perfectly "flat" rack.

Between the flex in the belt and the movement allowed by the hinge bolt, any flex in a 1/2" thick aluminum mounting plate would not be measurable.

If you look at the various photos that are posted on this forum that show chatter, you'll see the same pattern and the same severity that I had pre-belt-drive / pre-gearbox. The chatter was still visible after I added belt-drives and after I removed the belt-drives and added the gearbox equipped motors, although the depth of the chatter marks was greatly reduced.

All of the belt-drive transmissions that I tried gave the same results. There was no difference between transmissions that I prototyped using MDF, plywood, 1/2" plastic or 1/2" aluminum. That tells me that the frame is not the weak link in a belt-drive transmission.

I'm sure that you're aware that the $1,700 Alpha motors use a different gearbox than the $257 PK296A2A-SG7.2 motors, although my PK296 motors have remarkably little back-lash, much less than the tech support person at Oriental Motor told me to expect.

I freely admit that the MechMate is a much more robust machine than my PRT-Alpha Shopbot. I wish that I had one, but I only have room for one machine in my shop and I already have a Shopbot.

A CNC machine is made up of a lot of different "systems", i.e., frame, motors, router/spindle, hold-down method, etc. Any one "system", i.e. transmission/gearbox, cannot compensate completely for weaknesses in the other "systems".
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  #80  
Old Sun 13 September 2009, 12:06
chopper
Just call me: chopper
 
Big Lake Minnesota
United States of America
Mike,
I make these statements as an observation, I put the belt drives up for sale to help others who could not or cannot make them for their selves,
I am offended that you would suggest that I am pushing this issue to sell drives,
that is not the case, if the belt drives were inferior I would say so, in fact I here by ask Gerald to remove my post from the market section, I will no longer offer them for sale, if you want to build them you are on your own....
I cannot believe that you all get so pissy when someone questions you or has a different conclusion than you, sorry I tried to offer help to someone who asked for it....
I may not be a guru of cnc, but I have been around the block a few times and I know what I know, I will put my drives where my mouth is I will put them up against the oriental 7.2's and they will and do out perform them day in day out
I have tested and proved this over and over ...on two separate machine
//chopper
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  #81  
Old Sun 13 September 2009, 13:12
smreish
Just call me: Sean - #5, 28, 58 and others
 
Orlando, Florida
United States of America
....and in the spirit of troubleshooting where all of us are trying to be positive about mechanical design issues, Nils still has a challenge that is not resolved. I have seen the cut issue up close and personal and it has me stumped.

I haven't seen this kind of repeatable chatter/cutter issue ever. Not on my bridgeport, not on a Mazak, not a multicam, not on a shopbot series 1, not a shopbot PRT, not a thermwood, etc.

Nils' Mechanically sound machine has almost identical components to two other MM's here in Orlando and I cannot reproduce Nils results. Thus, I am challenged to help him resolve it.

Any positive discussion will be helpful....Pissy banter just makes it harder.

Let's try to keep it nice guys...

So, if someone would really like to resolve the perceived backlash issue as the culprit of this cutting problem, then chuck up a bit in the collet, cut some diamond shapes in solid surface or hard material about 5" in size with 45 degree sides splitting the x/y plane and publish the results. Now that would be a helpful clinical trial instead of a heated debate on who's is better and bigger!

Science, not politics.

Last edited by smreish; Sun 13 September 2009 at 13:30..
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  #82  
Old Sun 13 September 2009, 13:39
Doug_Ford
Just call me: Doug #3
 
Conway (Arkansas)
United States of America
Awwww....come on Sean. I was enjoying it.
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  #83  
Old Sun 13 September 2009, 13:53
Doug_Ford
Just call me: Doug #3
 
Conway (Arkansas)
United States of America
As requested. This is 3/4" mdf cut with a 1/4" carbide bit at around 60 ipm in a single pass. The other side didn't have a pattern but there was a small amount of chatter. I used chalk to help highlight the pattern.

Look at Nils picture in post #1. It looks almost identical.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Edge Pattern.jpg (17.9 KB, 394 views)

Last edited by Doug_Ford; Sun 13 September 2009 at 14:03..
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  #84  
Old Sun 13 September 2009, 16:00
isladelobos
Just call me: Ros
 
Canary Islands
Spain
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Doug Thanks. your cut is in diagonal?

You can test 30ipm 60ipm 90ipm in the same cut line and the pattern is identical betwen chatter marks?
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  #85  
Old Sun 13 September 2009, 17:14
Doug_Ford
Just call me: Doug #3
 
Conway (Arkansas)
United States of America
Yes. It was cut on the diagonal. I haven't tested at those speeds but I will do so. Give me a day or two.

I'm starting to wonder if maybe one of my wheels on the car is not fully seated in a small section of the rail. The reason I say that is because this pattern is not stepped. The short sections of the pattern are slightly raised. I could easily understand if the pattern was like a set of stairs. I'm wondering if the car is getting pulled back and forth slightly as a result of the changing amount of pressure applied as the motor is given a step but then rocked back in the other direction as the router approaches the point right before it is given another step.

Unlike Nils, I'm not that worried about it. If I can fix it, I will but I'm not going to spend a lot of time tinkering with it.

The raised section of the pattern is approximately .003" and are about 1/8" long. Easily sanded out.

Last edited by Doug_Ford; Sun 13 September 2009 at 17:27..
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  #86  
Old Sun 13 September 2009, 17:32
smreish
Just call me: Sean - #5, 28, 58 and others
 
Orlando, Florida
United States of America
...Now that's what I am talking about! Thanks Doug! That's ozarkian help
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  #87  
Old Sun 13 September 2009, 22:41
Kobus_Joubert
Just call me: Kobus #6
 
Riversdale Western Cape
South Africa
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Wow.. a 19 mm thick mdf cut with a 6 mm cutter in one pass.....???? I have never tried that before. Don't even think my little 500 W Makita router will handle it.

I always thought that you should not cut deeper than half your bit diameter...therefore if I use a 6mm cutter I will not go more than 3 mm per pass. With my little router I prefer to cut about 1.5 mm per pass on a 6 mm cutter. Takes more time to cut, but it's not so hard on the machine.
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  #88  
Old Mon 14 September 2009, 06:24
smreish
Just call me: Sean - #5, 28, 58 and others
 
Orlando, Florida
United States of America
...interesting. That pattern looks familiar. Thank you Doug - very helpful!
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  #89  
Old Mon 14 September 2009, 07:05
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
Doug,

Thanks for taking the time to do some test cuts.

I don't believe that I could cut 3/4" MDF with 1/4" bit in one pass. I will have to try it when I have some extra MDF. I also don't think I would have that little chatter.

I would like to see you cut the diamond pattern in a piece of solid surface material and see what kind of chatter you get. It it much harder than MDF.

I have a question. I looked over your build thread and I could not find where you listed what motors you are using. I think they are the geared PK296A2A-SG7.2 motors but I would like to verify.

Also you mentioned that you set your debounce setting to 500? You did that based on a J.R. thread. I searched his thread but could not find it mentioned there but I might have missed it. Why did you set the debounce level?

Also you changed your kernal to 35,000, Why?

Thanks for the input.

Last edited by sailfl; Mon 14 September 2009 at 07:08..
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  #90  
Old Mon 14 September 2009, 07:26
sailfl
Just call me: Nils #12
 
Winter Park, FL
United States of America
Over the week-end, I opened a thread on the Mach forum site were I briefly described my problem and asked if there was a way to test if the computer had a problem with regards to the kernal. I did not get an answer on that.

But I did get another comment about the settings for CV (Constant Velocity). It was suggested that CV can have an effect with regards to chatter. So I did some reading. There is a separate PDF document called CV Notes that briefly deals with some of the parameters.

In Mach, if you click on the Config tab and go to General Configuration, you will see on the right side, a General Configuration area and a CV Control area.

Under General Configuration (GC), there is a "Look Ahead ___ Lines" with the default of 20.

Under CV Control Area, there is "CV Dist Tolerance ____ Units" with the default of 180.
There is also a "Stop CV on angles > _____ Degrees with the defalut of 0.

Based on my reading of the CV Notes, I made the following changes:

CV Look Ahead 200 lines.
CV Dist Tolerance 100 units
Stop CV on angles > 90 degrees.

After restarting, I cut my Diamond at both 35 and 70 IPM and the cuts were smooth. But when I cut at 100 IPM, I still had chatter.

I have since changed the CV Dist Tolerance to 50 Units. I recut the Diamond at 100 IPM and no change in chatter.

I found the results most interesting and I am going to post my results on the Mach forum site. I also wanted to share these results with you.
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