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  #31  
Old Thu 26 April 2007, 00:26
Gerald_D
Just call me:
 
David, I am not recommending the Alpha/Mouser/Bob Campbell option, merely quoting it. That wire is not rated for continuous flexing - Mouser lists it in their catalog as "Communication and Control Cable". Sure, it is going to work for a lot of guys, but it will stop working looong before yours does.

Cables for continuous flex all have braided screens, which are more expensive to produce than simply wrapping a foil tape around the inner cores. The foil tape is the weak point for flexing - it eventually cracks into flakes (or the metal rubs off the Mylar) and the screen effect is lost. Snag is, one starts to get intermittent interference problems when the cable breaks down. This is how to finish the ends of a cable with Mylar foil screen:


The risk to the driver is actually not more than with a braided screen cable. To assess the quality/flexibility of the inner cores, one has to look at how fine the copper strands are. Today's Gecko 203V driver is supposed to tolerate a wire break much better than the earlier versions, so it might be possible to consider cheaper cables these days? (Most drivers used to blow when a cable got broken).
  #32  
Old Thu 26 April 2007, 11:56
Gerald_D
Just call me:
 
I've just remembered how I actually found the economical cables.....phoned around an asked for the "simplest/cheapest braided screen cable that you have - not aluminium or Mylar foil - proper braid"
  #33  
Old Fri 11 May 2007, 16:41
Håvard
Just call me:
 
Will LAPP ÖLFLEX-CLASSIC-110CY do?
Unfortunatly it costs ?4.40 pr. meter for 4 lead .75mm and ?6.97 for 1.5mm (1mm not available) 'locally' (from Sweden) + taxes and shipping...
  #35  
Old Sat 12 May 2007, 04:24
Gerald_D
Just call me:
 
I need to get home before I can answer your question properly - the internet in this hotel is pretty bad.
  #36  
Old Sun 13 May 2007, 03:14
Håvard
Just call me:
 
Hi,

I feel a bit stupid to have jumped right in here. I did not realize that the cables get thinner when the AWG increases... Who came up with those units anyway? I'd like to tell them a little something.
  #37  
Old Sun 13 May 2007, 12:40
Gerald_D
Just call me:
 
I am sitting at Johannesburg airport right now, due to a lot of bungling by Delta airlines - I believe that Delta is run by the same people that give bigger numbers to smaller wires
  #38  
Old Sun 13 May 2007, 13:22
Håvard
Just call me:
 
Airports are such great fun... Always have a few books with you when airports are involved.

Anyway, isn't the cables for the steppers a bit overkill? 1.5mm^2 is used here for 10A 220V electrical (2200W). On the steppers you have 300VA powersupply split on four steppers which are then split into four wires (Or 2A 70V on each motor max(140VA)) and you are still using 1.0mm^2 on each wire. I don't know how the power is distributed on those four wires but somehow I doubt they are all running 2A continuous.

Anyone thought on how long those none braided alu foil shielded cables are going to last? Are we talking months or year of continuous use?
  #39  
Old Sun 13 May 2007, 13:56
Frank D
Just call me:
 
An FYI for anybody that cares, lol. AWG sizing has to do with the number of passes through the dies to get the wire. For example, 0 wire requires less draws that 30 AWG. (Think Solid wire here). Most AWG stranded wire is made using 26-30AWG strands. The result is building a stranded wire to the nominal gage's area in circular mil. Also, for gages 5-14, the wire gauge is effectively the number of bare solid wires that, when placed side by side, span 1 inch. In other words, 8 AWG is roughly 1/8" in dia.

And airplanes are a blast, so much so that I stopped flying commercial and bought my own (I loathe US Airlines, no concept of service anymore).
  #40  
Old Mon 14 May 2007, 02:53
Gerald_D
Just call me:
 
Håvard, The recommended motor wire size of 1.0mm2 is based on the fact that the Gecko 200 series drivers are capable of 7 Amps each. You could use a thinner wire for 2 Amp motors, but the price does not come down so much.

Another place to search for cables is with the guys in the music and sound reproduction industry - even people doing high quality home installations.
  #41  
Old Mon 14 May 2007, 10:48
Gerald_D
Just call me:
 
  #42  
Old Mon 14 May 2007, 13:02
Håvard
Just call me:
 
Will try some different sources for cable. If you pay $1.65 for a meter, I should be able to find something that cost less $10 for a meter which is the best price I've found so far.
  #43  
Old Mon 14 May 2007, 13:24
Gerald_D
Just call me:
 
My wife and I are planning to visit your country in June next year - should we bring some cable?
  #44  
Old Mon 14 May 2007, 13:29
Gerald_D
Just call me:
 
Have you tried this company?:

http://www.miltronic.no/
  #45  
Old Sat 19 May 2007, 12:14
soulvoid
Just call me: Håvard
 
Stavanger
Norway
Checked with them, turns out that the ÖLFLEX CLASSIC 115Y is an inexpensive cable compared to the ÖLFLEX CLASSIC 110Y that they stock. There is also ÖLFLEX 120CH which is a fraction less expensive. They wanted $$$ to cut from a roll, however directed me to local resellers. These however only sell to registered businesses.

I contacted Mariss who said you don't need a that thick cable, especially when not using the max output of the drives. We'll see what I can come up with.
  #46  
Old Sat 19 May 2007, 17:53
soulvoid
Just call me: Håvard
 
Stavanger
Norway
Will cables with both braided and foil shield work?
  #47  
Old Sat 19 May 2007, 22:55
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
I'm sure that that a double-shielded cable will work. The "inexpensive" 115Y sounds just right!
  #48  
Old Thu 31 May 2007, 12:40
John Jasper
Just call me: John
 
Jasper, IN
United States of America
From the Mouser catalog, these are the prices for flexible control wire and the wire from Bob Campbell. Is the cost/quality difference worth the price differincail?

Alpha Wire XTRA-GUARD High Flex Cable 18AWG 4C SHIELDED 100ft $1560.36
Alpha Wire XTRA-GUARD Standard Flex Cable 18AWG 4C SHIELDED 100' SPOOL GRAY $1029.18

Bob Campbell
Alpha wire Multi-Conductor Communication and Control Cable 4C 18AWG 100' SPOOL $123.79
  #49  
Old Thu 31 May 2007, 13:36
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
No, there will not be a ten-fold (plus) improvement in quality, reliability, performance, etc. We are not building a machine where we have to have 100.00% up time. If we were, then a lot of other components would have to have 10-fold cost increases.
  #50  
Old Sun 03 June 2007, 11:27
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Can someone tell me if the Porter Cable & Milwaukee routers have ground wires in their cords? ie. are the cords 3-core or 2-core?
  #51  
Old Sun 03 June 2007, 12:28
Marc Shlaes
Just call me: Marc
 
Cleveland, OH
United States of America
Send a message via Skype™ to Marc Shlaes
Gerald,

Both of those brands are 2-wire cords. I own both of them and physically checked. I was surprised by both. I expected them to be 3-wire. Why?

Marc
  #52  
Old Sun 03 June 2007, 13:10
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Thanks for checking Marc.

In the "cables" thread (this post and responses, were moved here) I am still saying 3-core cable for the routers....that is obviously wrong. 2-core screened/shielded cables will be easier to find than 3-core.

I was thinking that all metal casing tools still had a ground wire, but you have just confirmed this to be not true.
  #53  
Old Sun 03 June 2007, 13:17
Marc Shlaes
Just call me: Marc
 
Cleveland, OH
United States of America
Send a message via Skype™ to Marc Shlaes
What does screened and shielded actually mean? I am sure that if I had to ever replace a plug, which I have done to many American-made tools, I would find absolutely no screening or shielding (if that means metal). I would find standard rubber insulation for each conductor inside a rubber sheath housing all conductors. Maybe noise is minimized by twisting the conductors inside the sheath the way the conductors are twisted inside a CAT-5 ethernet cable. Don't know. Never completely stripped a tool power cord. I would believe that neither manufacturer is terribly concerned about noise. Is that your concern?
  #54  
Old Sun 03 June 2007, 14:31
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
Crudely put; when long lengths of cable are bundled together, they start to talk to each other.

Screening/shielding stops this. It stops cables from emitting or receiving stray signals (interference). The router is not sensitive to incoming noise - because of its brushes it tends to emit noise. The wires from the pushbuttons are the most susceptible receivers. The stepper motor cables emit high frequencies.

Interference can be prevented by keeping parallel cable runs short, keeping cables well separated, or failing those, shielding/screening them.
  #55  
Old Sun 03 June 2007, 14:54
Marc Shlaes
Just call me: Marc
 
Cleveland, OH
United States of America
Send a message via Skype™ to Marc Shlaes
Is there and after market screen / shield that you can "lace" over power cords or would you simply replace the entire cord with one that is screened / shielded / grounded?
  #56  
Old Sun 03 June 2007, 22:34
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
I doubt if practical "lacing" were available. Remember we also need flexibility, both of the screening and the inner copper cores.

If we wanted to save money in this area, we could consider having screens only on the susceptible signal (push-button) cable. Or only having expensive cables for the short sections that actually flex. Or moving the control box under the table. Each of these options carry risks.
  #57  
Old Tue 05 June 2007, 08:27
John Jasper
Just call me: John
 
Jasper, IN
United States of America
Yes, copper braid sleeves are available to do this. But with anything copper these days it is not a cheap solution. It runs about $1.50USD/ft. I would invest that $1.50 into getting a better cable.

As for me, I am going to give it a go with:
Alpha wire Multi-Conductor Communication and Control Cable 4C 18AWG 100' SPOOL $123.79 Mouser Page
  #58  
Old Sun 24 June 2007, 17:54
Greg J
Just call me: Greg #13
 
Hagerman, New Mexico
United States of America
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Smith View Post
Well I bit the bullet and ordered my cable. cost was close to $600.00 (ouch). The problem I ran into is there is no "middle of the road"
either the cost is sky high or the cable is not flexable and you have to buy it in bulk. after talking to the wife I decided to get the
better cable and not have to worry about problems down the road. It may not be cheap but I want/need a high quality dependable
machine and if built right I belive MechMate will be both.

Gerald thanks again for all you do.

David
David,

I'm waiting on a quote from Hi-Tech Controls. I'm just not comfortable with the foil shield. A year from now (or more), I don't want to be trouble shooting intermittent wire problems.

Did you go with Hi-Tech? If you did, what did you buy for $600. That seems low for what I'm wanting to get.

Greg
  #59  
Old Sun 24 June 2007, 17:56
Greg J
Just call me: Greg #13
 
Hagerman, New Mexico
United States of America
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerald_D View Post
This is how to finish the ends of a cable with Mylar foil screen:

Gerald,

Whats the proper technique for braided cable?

Greg
  #60  
Old Sun 24 June 2007, 22:20
Gerald D
Just call me: Gerald (retired)
 
Cape Town
South Africa
For braid, you don't need to fold it back for strain relief, or join on stronger wire. The braid is quite strong enough to be treated as any of the other cores. You crimp a terminal directly to the braid.

I put a thin heatshrink sleeve over the short bit of exposed braid, before it enters the terminal. And then a bigger heatshrink sleeve over the outer cable where the cores break out - this covers any stray braid "hairs" that may be peeping out there.
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