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  #31  
Old Sun 23 November 2008, 14:44
waynec
Just call me: Wayne from White Salmon
 
White Salmon, WA
United States of America
Koning
I'm sure willing to share what I know about the wiring. But I have to say that the wiring for my make and model may not be the same as yours.

That said, I'll put a wiring diagram and some notes together tonite and try to get it posted. I'll post it as a new thread- wiring the VFD or something like that, so its easy to get to.

I've been meaning to do that anyway.

Wayne
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  #32  
Old Tue 25 November 2008, 10:29
kaartman
Just call me: Koning #20
 
Abu Dhabi
United Arab Emirates
Thank you Wayne, I have seen it and it is great, thank you again,
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  #33  
Old Fri 05 December 2008, 12:25
sehast
Just call me: Steve
 
Milptias, CA
United States of America
More Spindle Questions

Wayne, I just finished reading your thread on your new spindle. I have been debating whether to get one of these for several months. I have talked to HomeShopCNC and they seem to be good folks to deal with. I also have a K2 router mount that I think I can shim, its already close (about 3.5 inch) to 80 mm required. How did you shim yours? Now that you have had a little more time cutting with the new spindle, how do you like it? Do you think the fish tank pump still will be OK? Have you been able to confirm the run out spec? Does the extra weight of the new spindle over tax your Z motor? The router I am currently using only weighs about 6 lbs so I am a little concerned since I only have a 150 oz-inch motor and a 2 to 1 mechanical advantage.

Steve
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  #34  
Old Fri 05 December 2008, 23:52
Greolt
Just call me: Greg
 
Victoria
Australia
I,m sorry this is not on a Mechmate.

However there seems to be a bit of interest in these Chinese water cooled HF spindles.

This one is 1.5kw (2hp) water cooled, ER16 nose, 24000rpm, 400hz.

I use a Hitachi SJ200 VFD. It was only a little more money than a Chinese one and I decided to go this way.

I use a Homman Designs DigiSpeed to interface the control to Mach3. Works a treat.

It leaked a little water when I got it. Easily fixed. But the water leaked in a way that it went past the bearings. Will it reduce the life of the bearings? I don't know.

Another user here in Aus. got one with one winding shorted to the case. Again easily fixed but that is sometimes what you get from China.

Overall I am very happy with it. I would definitely buy one again.

Greg
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Spindle.jpg (138.0 KB, 1748 views)
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  #35  
Old Mon 08 December 2008, 20:12
waynec
Just call me: Wayne from White Salmon
 
White Salmon, WA
United States of America
Steve,
I can't really give an endorsement of performance at this point. I'm still not done installing the water cooling part, so I haven't really done more than a couple short tests. But I expect I'll be satisfied with it.

I got a spindle mount from K2 that was just oversized, and shimmed it with brass shim stock. Its a hack job, and I'll want to fix this later. I made a cut file for some phenolic stock I have, and once I'm up and running I'll use this to make a prototype holder. If that works, I'll consider trying one out of aluminum. I've never cut aluminum, so I may have someone with a better setup do this job.

The cooling has turned into a PITA, but it could have been simplified. The fish tank pump is CLOSE to working, but not quite. It would work if the tubes and fittings going to the spindle were a size or two larger. The smaller tubing is just a bit too much resistance for the smalle pump to overcome, so any disturbance to flow like bubbles, can stop the flow or slow it to very low levels. I've got a larger pump coming, and when I get that done I'll be sure to report.

All that might have been avoided if I had taken the route of another poster who is going to solder or braze larger hose fittings to the fittings that come with the spindle. This would have put more water at the spindle with less loss to tube resistance, at least in theory. I searched for larger fittings or adaptors, but couldn't find them.

The spindle doesn't seem to be any more strain on my gantry than the PorterCable router was. I did need to add a spring to counteract the load, but it doesn't bend or flex the gantry signficantly that I can see. I may find problems when I run it alot, but I think it will be no significant change there. I have a fairly beefy extruded aluminum gantry, not the original stuff at all. I also upgraded the Z axis motor and linear actuator so its more than enough to handle this. When in doubt, overbuild.

Hope this helps. I still can't tell if I did the right thing. Its lots cheaper than the HSD 3 hp spindle, even with all the fish pump extravaganza and extra controller card parts and whatnot. So if it performs even marginally better it will be worth it. I don't set the threshold too high, evidently.

Hope this is useful info.

Wayne
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  #36  
Old Tue 09 December 2008, 08:55
sehast
Just call me: Steve
 
Milptias, CA
United States of America
Wayne,
Thanks much for the info. Lots to ponder for me. Look forward to hearing more when you are complete and can really put it through its paces.

Steve
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  #37  
Old Sat 13 December 2008, 21:05
waynec
Just call me: Wayne from White Salmon
 
White Salmon, WA
United States of America
Made my first cuts today

I finally got the pump for my water cooled spindle installed and working today. It works just liked I hoped, and while it looks goofy, it makes me feel that no matter the load I don't need to worry about overheating the spindle.

The motor I used was a Grundfos pump typically used for recirculating hot water in hydronic heating systems. It costs about $70-90 US, plus flanges and fittings. Its rated at 1/25 hp, and has a 3 speed control and a built in check valve. Its very quiet, and also a good bit heavier than the fish tank pump I tried first. So far, I'm much more satisfied with the Grundfos pump.

The tubing showed clearly that water was flowing easily thru the smaller fittings. Air bubbles were quickly moved to the resevoir. At the high speed its really more cooling than is needed. I'll be able to use the lower speed setting and get adequate flow.

I did get to run a short file, and now I'm starting to feel better about the purchase and install costs. The spindle is quieter by half at least, and doesn't bog down on my first test. I can set the spindle rpm in the program, and change the spindle rpm with Mach 3's onscreen override settings. PERFECT. I did warm the spindle up for 10 minutes, and you can feel the heat being removed by the water. The spindle motor and tubes get warm, but not near hot. I'll test more tomorrow to see if a heavier load causes any significant change in heat.

I'll get some pics tomorrow. You guys have to see the Klugepile bunch of tubing and wiring this adds to the machine.


Wayne from White Salmon
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  #38  
Old Sun 14 December 2008, 10:20
Robert M
Just call me: Robert
 
Lac-Brome, Qc
Canada
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Wayne, thanks for your reports on this spindle issue & looking much forward for your continuing upcoming reports w/photos. Robert
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  #39  
Old Mon 15 December 2008, 03:03
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
Wayne, thanks for that detailed writing - looking forward for the pictures

RGDS
IRfan
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  #40  
Old Thu 18 December 2008, 10:34
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
Hi Wayne - kindly flash the pictures - atleast I am waiting to see em desp...

RGDS
Irfan
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  #41  
Old Sun 21 December 2008, 14:43
waynec
Just call me: Wayne from White Salmon
 
White Salmon, WA
United States of America
Spindle Coolant Klugepile

Here are a couple pics of the coolant system for my water cooled spindle. I'm not proud, and maybe even embarrassed about the current install, but it IS working, and the components seem to be good ones so far.





The first pic is a rear view. The red thing hanging from the underside is the Grundfoss pump. The small tube is the output side, and it goes directly to the spindle. The output side of the spindle, not visible from this pic, feeds into the resevoir. The resevoir is just a plastic tupperware style container. I put two bulkhead fittings onto it, and filled it with a combo of water and antifreeze (about 10% antifreeze I'm guessing). The output side of the resevoir connects to the transmission cooler, which is the big black radiator thing. The output of the tranny cooler connects to the pump and completes the loop.



Second pic shows a side view to show how things mounted up. I have an alum bar that connects to my Z actuator. Its what I connect my Shopbot style cable carrier to. I simply mounted a piece of slotted angle iron to this, and bolted on whatever brackets and mounts I needed. It travels with the Z axis, and hangs off the back side of my vertical style aluminum gantry. Hope the pictures make some sense.

It ain't pretty, but it does work. The larger pump provides more than adequate flow. The resevoir is small, but adequate. The whole mess hangs on the top of my Z axis linear actuator and goes along for the ride.

I was expecting the additional weight to be a problem, but it doesn't seem to be so far. What I do now have is confidence that the spindle will not overheat. In my first several tests I've let the spindle warm up for 10 or 15 minutes and the water does get warm moving from the spindle to the pump. After the warm up period you can feel heat in the water, radiator, and tubes, but nowhere near enough to be a danger to the spindle. Still, no test under load to this point.

Getting the system going was a bit of a challenge. If there are air bubbles anywhere the pump may not be able to push water thru. I ended up using a sump pump (the kind you use to remove water from a flooded basement) and a temporary hose to force water thru the radiator. It took just a second or two, but it removed all air bubbles and the Grundfoss pump was able to pump once this was done.

Thanks for your help and pointers all in getting this going. This is going to work. I just need to clean up the install.
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  #42  
Old Sun 21 December 2008, 14:52
Doug_Ford
Just call me: Doug #3
 
Conway (Arkansas)
United States of America
It looks great Wayne. I'm really envious.
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  #43  
Old Wed 24 December 2008, 09:30
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
great Wayne - I am looking forward to work on my spindle soon.


RGDS
Irfan.
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  #44  
Old Mon 19 January 2009, 10:59
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
Wayne , any updates you wanna share with us now?

RGDS
IRfan
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  #45  
Old Tue 20 January 2009, 11:41
waynec
Just call me: Wayne from White Salmon
 
White Salmon, WA
United States of America
Sorry, watching the Inauguration

I'm sorry I havent added much more about the spindle. Its up and working, and seems to be doing fine. I know the cooling system is working and that the speed control is working and Mach 3 controls it just fine.

I just ran a set of five Adirondac chairs. Each chair uses 5 1x12 pine boards. I can cut thru the material in a single pass, but hold down becomes an issue, so I used two passes with bridges, which worked fine. I did break a worn 1/4" bit on a knot. The spindle reduces the cut time to under half of the time with the Porter Cable router. Its quieter, but not that much less because of the whine of the quarter inch spiral bit. There is no burning, very little chatter and no sound of strain AT ALL on the spindle. It gets warm but never hot. The tranny cooler radiator was not overkill.

I played with speed and feed rates, and found that if I pushed too hard, or if the bit was worn I could get the spindle to stop and the VFD to give an error message. This happened maybe three times, and when I reduced the feed rate from 220 ipm to 160 ipm I got more consistent results. That's plenty fast thru knotty pine. I'm still working on getting Constant Velocity optimized, so I get rounded corners on some tightly spaced moves. That's not related to the spindle.

I just started, or re-started my custom woodworking business, which much get priority for now. I had intended to create a sort of mini- ebook on installing the watercooled spindle, but I won't be able to until I get some business work done.

Thanks for your patience, all. If some of you need some info on specific parts, I'm more than happy to respond. I check the forum almost daily.

Congrats to President Obama, and here's to HOPE.

Wayne

Last edited by waynec; Tue 20 January 2009 at 11:49..
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  #46  
Old Wed 21 January 2009, 00:56
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
Thanks Wayne for the update
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  #47  
Old Wed 21 January 2009, 09:16
kaartman
Just call me: Koning #20
 
Abu Dhabi
United Arab Emirates
Hey Wayne, I ran my spindel last night without Mach as a test, just on/of and sone speeds up and down, at first i thought the winding sound was a worn bearing, suppose it has to be like that, wil work on mach setup, dont understand it yet and dont know how to start, just has to i guess

Happy Cutting
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  #48  
Old Thu 22 January 2009, 10:03
waynec
Just call me: Wayne from White Salmon
 
White Salmon, WA
United States of America
Koning,
Congrats on getting it fired up. Do you have the cooling part done yet? And what kind of VFD do you have? There may be some programming to do on the VFD before put it in service. But I know how good it is to just hear the thing spin and get it wired to this point.

Onward!

Wayne
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  #49  
Old Fri 10 April 2009, 21:26
dacostad
Just call me: David
 
Los Angeles
United States of America
I have one of these Chinese SPindles and VFD's and I am trying to figure out how to connect the VFG to my CNC4PC C11 board for spindle on/off and speed control - can anyone help?

Thanks

David
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  #50  
Old Fri 10 April 2009, 22:30
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
david - you do have the manual for the vfd haven't u?
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  #51  
Old Fri 10 April 2009, 22:31
dacostad
Just call me: David
 
Los Angeles
United States of America
Yes, but it's not helping.

David
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  #52  
Old Fri 10 April 2009, 22:42
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
can you post it here pls - atleast we can try.
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  #53  
Old Sat 11 April 2009, 00:25
dacostad
Just call me: David
 
Los Angeles
United States of America
Sure, here it is.

Thanks

David
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Introduction2.pdf (881.6 KB, 263 views)
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  #54  
Old Sat 11 April 2009, 10:35
waynec
Just call me: Wayne from White Salmon
 
White Salmon, WA
United States of America
David

Congrats on the new spindle and VFD. It may be slightly different model than the one I have, but I can give some general instructions.

Here's the connections:
1) Input voltage- Terminals marked R S and T are for the voltage input. This is where you connect your 220 V single phase if that's what you are using. Use TWO of the three terminals if you have single phase power. I don't know what voltage or phase power you have, but it connects here. If its US 220V single phase, you'd connect the two HOT legs to any two of these three terminals. In single phase 220V, the neutral leg connects to terminal E, the ground terminal. I'd check input voltage with a meter to be sure. Getting it wrong here will release the magic smoke from inside the VFD. Just be sure not to connect the neutral to any of the three input voltage terminals, or a hot lead to the ground terminal.

2) Output to spindle- this is the 3 phase power that the VFD sends to the spindle. Connect shielded cable of at least 14 ga wire to terminals U V and W. This wire will terminate to the plug at the spindle. Solder these. Don't connect the shield (the braided wire that surrounds the other wires) at the spindle end. It connects to ground back at the VFD. If your spindle rotates the wrong direction, that is if FWD makes it spin CCW instead of CW, you can just reverse a pair of wires going to the VFD and it will change the rotation direction.

3) Connect ground- It appears that your ground is terminal E. I'd verify that with a meter- when the VFD is on, this terminal should not measure any + volts measured to chasis ground. Run a wire to this terminal and connect it to the shield from the spindle cable and on to your systems common ground point and to the neutral wire of your input voltage.

Control connections. I use the C6 speed control board to take output from Mach 3 and create the 0-10V the VFD needs to control speed. I'm not that familiar with the C11, so I can't comment. But you can also wire the spindle 'manually' so that it works without the speed control thru Mach 3. On your VFD, if you connect a 10K trim pot to the +10V terminal and ground (E), and send its variable output to the VI terminal. Change this variable resistor should provide speed control. You can use this to control speed, and the RUN or Start control on the VFD to start and stop the spindle.

CONNECT AN EMERGENCY STOP to this before you use it. Put this near your operating position or somewhere safe so you can stop the spindle quickly without software. I put an in-line switch with a big red stop paddle that disconnects power to the VFD. There may be a better way, but be sure to have some method NOT related to software to shut off the spindle.

Finally, you may need to program the VFD to get it to run right. I don't know how yours is configured from the factory, or how you will use the spindle. But the descriptions of the programming start on page 26. I can tell you how mine is programmed, but I can't say for certain that is what you will need.

Well, that will get you started. Let me know what kind of speed control board, and what you are using the spindle for, and I'll try to help you get that part connected. If it were me, I'd first get to where you can get the spindle to turn on and off at the VFD panel, and use a variable resistor to control the speed. AND install an E-stop of some kind.

Oh, and get some water cooling connected. Do you have a method in mind?

I'm using mine all the time, and it works just fine. Its a struggle to get it running, but it does work well.

Good luck with your project. I'll try to monitor here to answer questions if I can.

Wayne C
White Salmon, Washington State
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  #55  
Old Sat 11 April 2009, 11:07
dacostad
Just call me: David
 
Los Angeles
United States of America
Hi Wayne - Thanks!

Yes I am using single phase 220v (USA).

The C11 board contains the C6 board functionality so I you could tell me what the VFD to C6 board connections are that would be very useful.

If you could tell me the VFD settings that you had to set, that would also be usefull. I am using my Spindle on a CNC Router that I am building.

My spindle is the 1.5kw air cooled version so I don't have to worry about water cooling.

Thanks again for the help

David
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  #56  
Old Sat 11 April 2009, 12:16
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
Hi David - look here for programming HINTS -
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  #57  
Old Sat 11 April 2009, 17:05
dacostad
Just call me: David
 
Los Angeles
United States of America
Bad news, I just smoked the spindle

I went through the VFD functions and they looked okay but I missed PD142 which is the rated current of the motor and it was set to 7 (I assume Kw) and this is a 1.5kw motor so I assume it should have been 1.5.

Do we know how many poles the motor is? (PD143), Also for PD144 Rated Motor Revolutions for this motor it is 24,000?

David
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  #58  
Old Sat 11 April 2009, 18:50
dacostad
Just call me: David
 
Los Angeles
United States of America
I just did some more checking, just looking at the motor specs shown on the seller Ebay shop and it looks like the motor is 6amps, also the PD142 function is set in amps. The VFD was set to 7amps, would that difference be enough to blow the spindle?

David
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  #59  
Old Sat 11 April 2009, 19:56
dacostad
Just call me: David
 
Los Angeles
United States of America
Also before the spindle when up in smoke I saw AOL (I think that is correct) appear on the VFD display briefly - not sure what that means and there is no reference in the manual.

David
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  #60  
Old Sun 12 April 2009, 00:03
javeria
Just call me: Irfan #33
 
Bangalore
India
did you blow it on the first connect? think you can claim the warranty on the spindle!
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