Now Cutting! - Auckland NZ

[pblackburn]

Chris, you probably already did this but are you using a charge pump signal? If so, did you set it in Mach? Make sure the pins are correct for step and direction, I had to change them from the default setting that comes with Mach. Is you motor tuning set up yet? As always, don't hook both the X and the slave to the rack without verifying they are working in unison and are slaved.

[litemover]

Hi Pete,

I haven't setup for charge pump yet but I'll check. I'm sure something is holding the BOB into a state, but can't figure out what yet. The enable outputs LED is not lit. Does it normally stay lit all the time when you are enabled?
C

[pblackburn]

This is a lot from memory but you need to make sure your switches are set properly on the board. Then set Mach settings. I used the PMDX 126 with the 134 motherboard. It sounds like a dip switch setting is set for the charge pump and it is not being received to allow you to run the drives. It would be set in your outputs. Sorry I do not know the status of the lights.

[Gerald D]

Chris, you probably are not aware of it, but this is the slowest thread to open because of external links to huge photos. Please excuse me if I only scrape the courage to open this thread every 2 or 3 days.

[litemover]

Oh, Didn't realize it as it load pretty fast on my end. Do I jut upload photos through the manage links? Anyhoo, I got it all running, thanks Pete. The problem was charge pump was on with the PMDX 107 spindle controller. Doh, that was a hard one to find. Just trying to figure out motor tuning now. I entered the numbers for 30 tooth pinion and all seems ok. Now jusst need my pinions to arrive and I'll be moving.

The cable chain came today, kudos to Chai for sending it DHL express. And it was the cool yellow pinned sort (which wasn't what I ordered but I'm not complaining as it's an upgrade).

Spindle got through customs but hasn't been delivered yet. So, nearly everything is coming together at once! Carbidecheu's bits came, and I just ordered some more carbide HRC 55 bits. Can't wait to be cutting.

Next design I guess is the dust collector cyclone.
CC

[pblackburn]

Glad to see you figured it out. Mach is a nice program but can drive you buggy at times. Mach's forum is helpful also if you cannot find your solution here.

[litemover]

Thanks Pete.

Yes, charge pump it was, but not on my bob. How come the spindle board has a charge pump setting that will disable outputs? Are there 2 charge pump signals then? One to spindle and one to the BOB?
Spindle arriving today, hope it was worth it! Going to try it out on 3 phase at the venue. Will take a video.
CC

[litemover]

Well the Chinese 4k spindle arrived today from qiandingzhensatisfaction on Ebay which made my day. It's huge and heavy, and looks very nice, brand spanking new. No play in the bearings, and seems the runout look good, but I haven't measured it or anything, time will tell. I've included the unboxing photos. Was awesome he included 6x precision collets for it. Wish I had known that or I wouldn't have paid $35 for a collets set elsewhere. What a deal the spindle was and I received it in about 6 days!

Interesting thing was that the connector was a nice one, not a solderable one but a screw in type. It has 5 pins, 1-4 plus ground. Not sure yet what the pinout is, but I reckon 1 through 3 are phases, 4 is nuetral, and 5 is ground. Waiting to hear, if anyone knows, that'd be great if you could clue me in.

30 tooth metric M1 pinions are on the way. Looks like a good quality hardened pinion with a hub that is to spec. So as soon as the pinions get here, I should be cutting! W00T!

I was wondering, is there any way to hook up some thermistor to the spindle inside somewhere and have it go back to a thermistor relay? I don't think the chinese spindles have thermistors, well not the cheap ones. Was thinking of taking it apart changing out the fan, and later add ceramic bearings too.


Well that's it for now, very close to cutting now.

Chris

[Alan_c]

1,2,3 are lives (there is no neutral) 5 should be earth (remove the little screw from the front of the connector case and pull the insert out a short way to see how it is connected) there is no thermistor, it would have to be added when the wotor is wound, not possible to add later.

[danilom]

Is this connection manual correct then?

http://www.marchantdice.com/worldofc...kwInverter.pdf

[Alan_c]

Looks correct to me!

[litemover]

fantastic! thank you!

[bradm]

You can confirm the wiring by measuring resistance with a meter. You should get three equal low resistance readings between each pair of lives (1,2,3), and open circuit readings between any other combination of pins.

[litemover]

thanks Brad. I think I have the pinout worked out. So I do have one question, has anyone added a different fan to thier air cooled chinese spindle so that it always is on even at low spindle speeds? I'd like to be able to use the spindle at speeds lower than 8000, is that possible if I wire up another fan?

Mounted some rack, bought the tape, more wiring, all going well.

Thanks
Chris

[Gerald D]

Chris we used that style of spindle with an externally mounted fan and it was fine. Quieter too. Going to bed now, but you can search here for the first spindle that we used.

[litemover]

That's good news, I'll check it out thanks Gerald.

I fired up the spindle today on the ABB VFD and it runs well. At first when I fired it up, it had a bit of drag on it, maybe from stale grease on bearings but as soon as it warmed up, all was good. I'm really chuffed about the fact that I bough a 4kw spindle with ABB 10hp inverter for less than $550USD.

Unfortunately, neither came with a manual so I'm having to guess a bit.
Does anyone know the proper amperage setting for the 4 kw version. It says it can be run at 400 hz but I only tried it up to 200 to begin with. Also, what is the proper warm up procedure and cool down (if any)? I just want to make sure I'm operating this right.

Many thanks,
Chris

[Gerald D]

See a hint of the fan at http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showt...83&postcount=2. It is the same model Pabst fan used in the control cabinet.

[litemover]

Cool, thanks for the link Gerald. I see a linear bearing block and rail, skf?? I don't have a shock yet, so will keep looking locally. When u mount that spindle do u use another plate?

Having some thoughts on voltage, can I run this spindle 380v? 4000w/380v=10 amp which I think it is specked at? Or if I run it 230v then that will draw a lot more amperage no?

Thank for the help and ideas. It sounds like a jet engine. Very cool. Cept I can't get the manufacturer to send me a 4kw manual....

Cheers,
Chris

[litemover]

I received a message back from the seller of the spindle today. He said it is not dependent on Amps, but on watts, so I guess that means I could set my VFD for 380v 10amp instead of 230v 10 amp yes?

I posed this question to him, he still does not know. He is going to ask his tech. My suspicion following Ohms law is that a 4kw spindle can be set at 380-400v / 10amps, 300hz for 18000rpm, even though the suggested hz on this was 400hz. Maybe if you are running less voltage you can run it with lower torque at higher speeds?

I have a feeling that I'm not going to get very far with this seller in terms of tech...

[danilom]

Volts x Amps = Watts

so in the ebay page it says
2) Power: 4 KW
3) Voltage: 220V~250V

from looking at his other items, he gots one VFD stated 5HP 4kW which is not true as its 3.75 kW , so this spindle could be considered 3.75kW

so... it should be 220V set on output of VFD and 17 Amps maximum , maybe 16 to be on the safe side.

Read a little bit more here
http://www.woodworkforums.com/archiv.../t-109757.html

specs say:
----------
Spindle (FS-120-4.0KW/25):
0perational speed range: 18000 (r/min)
Frequency: 600 (HZ)
Power: 4.0 (KW)
Torsional moment: 5.10(N. M)
Voltage: 380(V)
Electric current: 16 (A)

and if its a 300Hz spindle then its rated at 18.000 RPM and you should not run it past that

on the other hand ... other seller says this

2.Power: 4 KW

3. Voltage: 220V~250V

4.Frequency: 300 Hz

5.Speed: 0-18000 R/min

10.Current: 10 A

10A 220V means 2.2kw

its real fun with these sellers, I would think that there is no chinese spindle after 3kw but this one seem taller 230mm than those 3kw
but thats the fun while you buy from them, they produce it, sell it but don't know anything about it

[litemover]

Thanks Danilo,

Appreciate the links and info. His says 400hz (the one I purchased) but from looking at the other identical spindles, they all say 300hz, so i think they just copied the 3kw page. What I'm wondering is if they can be run 380v @ 10amps, because I can supply that voltage and it would be cheaper to run for me. I did set it for 230v 10amp and it seemed kind of soft sounding in comparison to the one I listened to on a video.

It seems that all the spindles in this class (4kw) are 4 bearing, German or Japanese adopted, and all of them can run either in 230v or 380v mode. Some of the sellers charge more for 380v, and more for 4 bearing, or more for german, etc... But they are all the same. But I could be wrong... My VFD will set for 230v or 380v so not sure what to do and don't think I'd find out from a Chinese seller without actually risking burning up my spindle myself. The only other thing I could think of would be star vs delta in wiring the coil, but that is only because the ABB VFD guy said something about that.

Anyways, I'll see what happens if I up the voltage.
Thanks,
Chris

[Tom Ayres]

Alright, you've got me confused about the spindles. I guess I'll have to try hunting one down myself to fully appreciate what's been said... or I can wait a bit and find out what happens...(saga continues)

[pblackburn]

Chris, you should run the spindle at the manufacturers recommended voltage. That is what it is wound for. That being said you can run a motor at a lower or higher frequency but the lower the frequency the hotter your VFD will get especially if you start it at a low preset and low it down. Most of the 400Hz rated motors can be run at 100 Hz but I would not go lower as you are well below at third of the rated Hz. The insulation of the motor windings allows the frequency to be moved up and down and resist thermal breakdown. There is a lot more to it than even what I have here.

[bradm]

Thanks Pete, I've been trying to figure out what to write here.

1) Lower limit is 100Hz = 6,000 RPM to avoid undue heating and failure.
2) Upper limit is based on the rating / quality of the bearings, not the electronics. Typically this will be 300hz = 18,000 RPM, or 400hz = 24,000 RPM.
3) The nameplate amperage limit is generally a hard limit based on the size of the wire used in the winding. Exceed it and the wires will heat and self destruct.
4) The voltage limit is a function of the insulation, the designed wattage and thermal characteristics, and magnetic characteristics. It is a little fungible, and theoretically your manufacturer knows best - if they are putting their best foot forward.
5a) A "classic" 3 phase inductance motor has a characteristic rotation speed, limits its current draw by the resistance of its wiring, and thus has to be supplied a specific voltage to limit the current draw and keep the heating under control when running at the design speed. If you run this motor on a VFD and reduce the speed, you risk overheating; if you increase the speed, you risk the bearings.
5b) Spindles, which are designed exclusively to be run with VFDs are a little different than a classic inductance motor; they expect an electronic control to limit the current, and thus the winding isn't necessarily designed to be self limiting. Wire it up directly to a 50 or 60hz supply, and it will run slow (at 3,000 or 3,600 rpm) while consuming more current than it can handle, and will overheat, melt, short, and fail. Quickly. However, if driven by an intelligent controller that regulates the current, they don't care as much about the voltage, because the windings were never designed to be limited by voltage in the first place.

HOWEVER ...

It's hypothetically possible to run a single manufacturing line that produces identical spindles of a given HP/KW that can be stamped at the end to be 230v or 380v and 300hz or 400hz without any actual differences. They will run, and perhaps even run well in lightly loaded circumstances, but not have the lifetime you might want. Are the bearings really rated to 24k? Will the windings really withstand a fully loaded bit at 6k RPM at 230v for a full days cutting? Does the insulation handle the DC spikes that far exceed the AC input?

At $3k per spindle you should care, at $300 per spindle you should keep spares.

Hopefully this reduces the confusion, and doesn't increase it. Chris, at the end of the day, I'm with Pete - when you step outside the manufacturer's rating, you're on your own to validate all the assumptions. Be careful and report back if you go down this road, please.

[KenC]

I'll try to do this as plainly & my command in English allows...
The spindle basically is an Induction Motor, works using the electromagnetic principle that Rotor's magnetic field "chasing after" stator magnetic field. the AC current generates a running magnetic field which rotates along the stator coils in a fix direction & the speed of that rotation depends on the AC waveform frequency (which is the job for the VFD), so higher the frequency, faster the the magnetic field rotates. This stator magnectic field induce another magnetic field in the rotor which always want to align itself with the stator magnetic field, hence, the rotor "chasing after" the stator magnetic field...

The current rating is identical at across the 1~400Hz in theory, in fact, at higher frequency skin effect will effectively improve the reliability, but that is in the range of thousands Hz, 400Hz really isn't gonna improve much. so our usual wall frequency is 50/60Hz, hence using conventional calculation serves enough safe factor in the calculation.

The torque equation is identical too. which is
W(rad/sec) x Torque(N.M) = Power(Watt),
BUT there is always a but in real world, due to all sort of inefficiency, 1~25Hz isn't reliable, anything above is nice & dandy.
With water cooled spindle, the spindle temperature remains constant because it has better cooling then the air cooled spindle which the fan is designed to work best at very high rpm.
As you can see, from the equation, the Torque is inversely proportional to the speed, as long as te power is constant. but in real life the motor only draw enough power for the rotor to "catch up" with the stator. & this power limit is the rated spindle power which the coils are designed to handle...

The only real limitation is the bearing rpm rating, not the coil wire size &/or coil turn.

AS for the voltage. the VFD output voltage is select-able, & this must matches the spindle motor voltage & as far as I know, Chinese Spindle are rated at 220V 3 phase.
u can choose whatever VFD input voltage you wish or limited to... As long as you don't overload your house circuit & burn down the house.

I hope this will clear up the voodoo & snake oil on VFD & spindle.

[Tom Ayres]

Brad and Ken, Excellent tutorials! Very good info, Thanks.

[litemover]

Thank you guys for the time spent in clarifying this. It's really helped a lot and wow, such fantastic and detailed information I could not have gotten anywhere else, THANK YOU!. I'm going to run it 380v 9amps.

The seller got back to me and said that it is indeed a 400hz motor, and that it can run on the 380v VFD. At 230v he said that it is rated at 12amps but I think they derate it to make sure it will last a bit without burning up. I suppose if I run it at 9 amps 380v it should be ok, especially if I keep it under 300hz. My VFD of course can run 230v too, but with higher voltage I'll save a lot in electricity since I do have 3 phase

I've purchased on ebay a tiny thermistor and I'm wondering if I can place it on the inside of the extrusion somewhere to monitor temperature.

Thank again guys for the help.
Chris

[Gerald D]

Setting Volts and Amps is related to risk of overheating and melting insulation or copper.
Setting Hertz is related to speed and risk of a short bearing life

When a supplier of a cheap spindle tells you that it is rated for 400Hz, take that with a big pinch of salt. Sure, it might do 400Hz for 2 weeks under light load. The cost of high speed bearings from reputable companies is more than the typical prices of the cheap spindles.

We are in the murky territory of DUTY RATING . . . . . how hard, how fast and how often will you use the device sold by the vendor? When it doesn't come up to expectation, he will say you drove it too hard, or too fast or too long, or something similar.

[danilom]

"and that it can run on the 380v VFD"

380 VFD and 380V motor is two different things, this sentence means that the VFD is rated for 3 phase 380V input.

"At 230v he said that it is rated at 12amps"
This is the value I should start using it

300 - 400 Hz is only the maximum RPM , 18.000 - 24.000
using the spindle for 3 years I never had a need for the speeds above 18.000 or 300Hz
but the rpm rating is for bearings so with a 24k rpm motor used at 18k rpm you are not pushing it too hard as 18k at 18k rpm.
I recently changed bearings in mine, they were indeed high speed P4 precision labeled and looked ok for the price of the spindle.

[litemover]

Thank you for that. What I've noticed is that some of the 4kw combo VFD with spindle sales say that they do have a 380V VFD in stock. I'm curious, if i'm running my VFD with 3ph 380v input, but setting it to 3ph 230v output 12amp, is it pretty much the same as if I set it to output 380v in terms of current consumption on the input side? Not sure if it would make any difference setting it to 380v output in terms of current consumption anyways.

I see what you mean Danilo, the 380v VFD can be set to output 230v anyways, and maybe that is what he means. What do you set your spindle output for in terms of amperage and voltage?