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-   -   Teknic Motor Question (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5242)

tcheney2000 Tue 31 May 2016 07:52

Teknic Motor Question
 
I ran across this awhile back. Anyone have any input?
https://www.teknic.com/products/clea...-servo-motors/
I am finally getting serious about building a custom machine. This showed up in my inbox last year. It's supposed to be a small servo motor but take the input from a stepper driver. Just curious...

islaww Tue 31 May 2016 13:05

Terry...
I have used a couple dozen of them on various projects. They are a brushless DC servo, with an integrated drive, so they do no require one. Step and direction signals can come straight from the pin or I/O board. Make sure you do your torque, reduction and rpm calcs well as they have a number of products with a finite power and rpm range.

tcheney2000 Tue 31 May 2016 13:27

I have a client that has a ShopBot and wants to speed up the jog speed. Will these work with the ShopBot control?

tcheney2000 Tue 31 May 2016 13:32

Also on my project I want to make a rather large cnc turning center for turning long posts. Are these strong enough to turn and hold the post while the spindle is cutting a pattern ( like on an a 8" square post?)

islaww Tue 31 May 2016 17:19

Terry...
Give me a call at (906) 273-1455. I've done a good number of systems for old ShopBots

WilliamT Thu 08 February 2018 05:33

I use these servos and I like um...
 
Just noticed this thread. Sorry for the late reply.

I have these servos mounted to a MechMate and a Bridgeport in Austin. Send a pm if you are interested to see them run.

ayetti Thu 12 July 2018 08:26

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamT View Post
Just noticed this thread. Sorry for the late reply.

I have these servos mounted to a MechMate .
Which motors did you use for the mechmate Bill? Iíve been looking over there motors and wasnít quite sure. I think itís a pretty clear upgrade for me to make though, just ironing out the details. I intend to use a centroid acorn controller.

WilliamT Thu 12 July 2018 13:16

Alex - Thanks for the note.

I'm using CPM-SDSK-2310S-RLN. They are little NEMA23's and were the least expensive when purchased a few years ago.

After fighting control problems for more than two years, I dumped the steppers, I drank the Teknic Kool Aid and bought four of these little guys for the MM. A more professional Hicon controller was added. What a difference!!

The 2310S-RLN incorporate a lower resolution controller. I have no way to measure whether the higher resolution servos run smoother. But for my machine and my applications, they are quite accurate and suite my needs well.

My MM is a larger version, with a 6' x 12' operating envelope with a 10"z. The gantry is heavy. The little 23's drive a reduction boxes, 4.5:1, 16 tooth x 72 tooth. During performance testing the servos drove the table exceeding 400-IPM, and there was more to go. But I'm sure they can easily drive this large gantry with 3:1 boxes.

I too have a Centroid Controller on the shelf waiting for time to upgrade. It will be interesting to see how well it performs on the MechMate..

Allegheny Thu 12 July 2018 17:20

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamT View Post
Just noticed this thread. Sorry for the late reply.

I have these servos mounted to a MechMate and a Bridgeport in Austin. Send a pm if you are interested to see them run.
Hi BillT,

What motors did you use for the Bridgeport? I'm planning to convert an Induma 1s this fall/winter (an Italian vertical turret mill like a BP on steroids - weighs 3,300#) and have been looking at the ClearPath/Acorn option. I'd also be interested in looking at Tecknics.

Thanx,
Brian in Taxachusetts

WilliamT Fri 13 July 2018 11:48

Brian,

I used the same servo on all three axis, a Clearpath CPM-SDHP-3441D-ELN. You can find them here:
https://www.teknic.com/model-info/CP..._voltage=75VDC

It is very important to know the performance of these servos can only be achieved by driving them with a proper power supply at the rated voltage of 75VDC. I chose the Teknic power supply STS-EMF75, now a legacy of theirs, but perhaps still available. It is listed at the bottom of this page. https://www.teknic.com/products/lega...gacy-products/

Two points quickly..

1) I'm using the same servo to drive the Z axis, as I bought the ClearPath stuff before rebuilding the machine. When I rebuilt the head, I weighed the quill and found its weight to be 20lbs. After I installed the ball screw setup to drive the quill I found that I could easily turn the screw by hand with little force to move the quill up and down. The large servo I have on the Z axis is totally inefficient and I can easily use a smaller one.

2)Over the years, the price of servo motors and controllers have come down. Manufactures are trying to capture more of the hobby market. We've seen this with Centroid whereby, they introduced the ACORN controller. Hicon now offers a less expensive professional controller. And DMM, Dynamic Motor Motion has introduced a complete servo package for machines like the Bridgeport. Find it here: http://www.dmm-tech.com/multiaxissolutions2.html

Let's consider the cost of my ClearPath stuff. Three servos, a power supply, and a Hicon controller cost me approx, $3,200 plus cabling and the labor to build the cables. Today, I can purchase a complete DMM system for the Bridgeport for a little over $1,500; a complete 'Turn Key' system. That's a savings of $1,700 bucks.

I really like the ClearPath stuff. It is cool, easy to setup and for me, trouble free. But to have $1,700 more dollars to spend on the machine elsewhere. You can easily apply that money to a set of digital scales.

There are many more options available today than were available four years ago when I purchased my equipment. Today, I would give the DMM serious consideration.

BillT

MetalHead Wed 18 July 2018 04:57

I am glad to hear we have a MechMate running the Teknic motors. I would love to see some pictures of your setup. Particulalry how the 23 series gear reduction is setup. I also want to see an Acorn controller in action on a MechMate. I think this combination in the next step in the electronics for the MechMate.

WilliamT Wed 18 July 2018 09:50

Sure, I'll begin to put the information together. Perhaps it is best to start a fresh thread on the ClearPath servos with the Acorn controller. There we can discuss my setup, the good, the bad, and future improvements where needed. This could be a very informative thread and a lot of fun.

jhiggins7 Thu 19 July 2018 05:46

Hey Bill,

I look forward to your new thread regarding Clearpath servo's etc. Clearly, you have pioneered a whole new and promising approach to driving the MechMate.

Panovak Sun 03 February 2019 12:11

will the DMM work for the mechmate? you mentioned it for the bridgeport.

Panovak Sun 03 February 2019 12:12

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamT View Post
Brian,


Let's consider the cost of my ClearPath stuff. Three servos, a power supply, and a Hicon controller cost me approx, $3,200 plus cabling and the labor to build the cables. Today, I can purchase a complete DMM system for the Bridgeport for a little over $1,500; a complete 'Turn Key' system. That's a savings of $1,700 bucks.



BillT

will the DMM work with the mechmate? Thanks

WilliamT Mon 04 February 2019 15:07

Absolutely, this will work with the MechMate. It's a true 5axis professional controller. You won't need Gecko's or SmoothStepper with this stuff.

And if you want to drive the Gantry with two servos, it can easily be done with the DMM.

Full Disclosure! I do not work with, or for DMM. I do not have association with anyone there. I am not paid or compensated by DMM or anyone there. But I have spoken to a couple of people that have switched their control system to DMM. They like it and have no complaints. Great Price Point, great documentation, good recommendations.

As I've said in the past, I've chased a lot of ghosts with the hobby class controllers and equipment. So for me, the DMM equipment have a lot of positives going for it with very few negatives. When I have a chance I will make this conversion on my MM and Bridgeport, I will post here..

You will find the following links helpful.

Product pricing page:
http://www.dmm-tech.com/multiaxissolutions2.html

The Controller BreakOut Board Manual is here. Comes complete with a lot of wiring information and Mach3 setup information as well.
http://www.dmm-tech.com/Files/DMB425...tVer010106.pdf

Mach3 Mill XML file for use with Mach3 is here.
http://www.dmm-tech.com/Files/Mach3Mill_DMB4250-8B.xml

Panovak Mon 11 February 2019 16:56

Thanks for the information. Still doing a lot of research. Right now my plan is for dmm dyn4 with acorn controller. I'm trying to learn about gearing to see what I should be doing. Some have mentioned I could use direct drive with servo but I'm not so sure

WilliamT Tue 12 February 2019 08:37

I would like to apologize for an error in my previous post!!

Earlier I said that the DMM Breakout boards is a true 5 axis controller. Sorry for the error earlier. The DMM board is a 4 axis controller, but is has the additional controller for the second Gantry drive, typically used for larger Gantry systems. The Axis porting is, X-axis and a second X'-axis if needed for the Gantry. And then of course Y-axis and Z-axis. And then the 4th port, the A-axis can be used for a rotary setup if desired.

Sure, the DMM servos can be setup as direct drive. Given a speed rating of 3,000 rpm, but can be over driven to 5,000, and a 16 bit encoder with unbelievable positional accuracy, you have the option to install the servo any way you want, 1:1, 2:1, 3:1.... You will have enough power to break any tooling you attach to your router/spindle, and you will have enough power/velocity to launch the gantry right off the end of the table into your neighbors yard, breaking the stops off in the process. Go have some fun

digit Tue 12 February 2019 09:36

Which motor would you suggest for 1:1 ratio (kW).

And I am wondering how to auto-tune a gantry with slave motor ?

WilliamT Thu 28 February 2019 06:20

Good question regarding ratios. Are we talking here about gearbox ratios, or the overall drive ratio of the axis?

My MM is configured with DP5 rack, as most guys have done with their MM's and I am using a 20 tooth pinion. And between the pinion gear and the servo is a simple 4.5:1 timing belt gearbox assembly.

To determine the overall drive ratio I used the following data gathered for my MechMate and then measured the result for accuracy. A static measurement confirmed the simple formula correct. The result indicate my servo drive system with a gearbox ratio of 4.5:1 yields a final Under Driven system, 0.702 : 1.

Let's say, perhaps I exchange my gearbox ratio with a 3:1 instead of the 4.5:1. Then my effective overall final ration would be 1.187:1, slightly Over Driven using the same rack and pinion gear. Of course you could dial in a 1:1 by changing any of the gears/pinion.

Driver Recommendation

I do not have a recommendation for drive motors for a 1:1 system. Simply because there are a lot of variables among builders and builder applications. Perhaps some of my data can provide insight.

As I have said before I am using the least expensive ClearPath Servo, CPM-SDSK-2310S-RLN. I am using two of them to drive the X-Axis; my complete gantry weight exceeds 125lbs. These servos can propel the gantry beyond 600ipm, but I keep the machine set much lower, 100ipm.

The quick specs of the servo: 45oz continuous; 220oz peak, 100watts. So looking at the specs; they really look anemic. (https://www.teknic.com/model-info/CPM-SDSK-2310S-RLN/) But in practice, I have never been disappointed with the speed, accuracy, or the performance of these servos. If you look at DMM, their small servos are 400watt. Clearly the small DMM servos can provide all the power you will ever need on a MM. And even smaller servos form Clearpath, like mine can perform quite well. There are many, many choices out in today's market. But one thing I have found to be true, you cannot compare servo specifications with stepper specifications. My 400oz steppers never, ever performed like these little servos. No matter how you measure them, my steppers were a two year disappointment, nightmare.

Multiple Axis Tuning

The guys at Teknic put together a little PDF discussing multiple axis tuning. Obviously this applies to Clearpath, but the logic behind should apply to other manufactured systems.

https://www.teknic.com/files/downloa...Motor-Axis.pdf


===========================

Examine Rack

Rack System = DP5 (Ratio= 20 : 6.333)
Rack = 6.33 threads per inch
Pinion = 20 threads per revolution

Examine Transmission Box
Gear Box Transmission =XL Profile (Ratio= 16 : 72) 4.5:1
Driver = 16 teeth teeth per revolution
Driven = 72 teeth teeth per revolution

Examine Effective Gearbox / Rack & Pinion Ratio Per Revolution
using a simple compound gear ratio method found here, https://woodgears.ca/gear/ratio.html, apply using my gear train data
Ratio = (16 x 20) / (72 x 6.33)
= 320 / 455.76
= 0.7021 Inch Per Revolution of servo

WilliamT Thu 28 February 2019 20:46

Correction Previous Post

Earlier I labeled my pinion as DP5. The pinion is DP20. Sorry for the confusion

supremacy Mon 13 May 2019 02:35

witam


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