CAM programs in general - who is using what?

[Kobus_Joubert]

I am little bit confused...and that is easily achieved.:confused:.
For about 2 day's I am fighting to get my DESIGNS into Mach3 to 'cut'.

I have Mach3 version R2.63 and on the FILE menu only have ...LOAD G-Code
......LazyCAM
......Close File
......Exit

BUT....If I read the MACH3 MILL manual they talk about Importing DXF, HPGL, BMP and JPG directly from MACH3 FILE menu.

I know that I can IMPORT them into LazyCam, but me and LazyCam is not seeing eye to eye at the moment and I cannot get my design situated on the correct start point etc etc.

Anybody with more experience please fell free to help me...I NEED to make dust this weekend and time is running out.
Thanks in advance

[Gerald D]

Have you tried the Lazycam forum? Probably part of www.machsupport.com (http://www.machsupport.com)?

An economical product that is well accepted is www.sheetcam.com (http://www.sheetcam.com). I am convinced the free trial version will have you going by the weekend.

This product's trial will also have you cutting soon:
http://www.vectric.com/WebSite/Vectric/cut2D/c2d_index.htm

Both of the suggested products are UK-based (our time zone) and have excellent forums. I was honoured to meet the writers of both programs in England 3 years ago and they are extremely approachable, helpful people.

[Kobus_Joubert]

Thanks Gerald, Sheetcam and c2d will be tried. I got home last night DETERMINED to get it right with LazyCam. With all new programs you go through this learning curve...sometime its easy, sometimes its more difficult. LazyCam interface is not like all windows programs where you click, drag and presto you resize your work. Some actions can be mouse driven, but others needs a manual typed input to change something.

I also found out that if I do my design in CoreDraw..which I have used for years now...and export to DXF, I get funnies in LazyCam/ Mach3. But if I export it to WMF format, it works well in LazyCam and Mach3.

[J.R. Hatcher]

I tried to use Lazycam but gave up because of the lack of help within the program. I am using Sheetcam with good results because of 2 reasons, 1st ... Marc helped me a lot and 2nd Sheetcam has excellent help within the program. My vote goes for Sheetcam. Marc and I have talked to Les (the developer?) and he is very willing to listen and make things work better for CNC Routers. I think the program has been used a lot more for plasma cutters than routers. Just think about all the extra control you need for a router. Anyway just my 2 cents worth.

[Kobus_Joubert]

Thanks JR, was wondering WHY I cannot get it right with LazyCam straight away...not as user friendly as I would have expected it to be. Will give it another go tonight, and then on to Sheetcam....there goes my budget again.

[Gerald D]

There are some other budget CAM programs listed here:

http://www.mechmate.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=19

[Greg J]

Kobus,

I'm using the VCarve Pro programs. Very easy and intutive. I was carving wood within 1 hour of opening the program.

[ekdenton]

+1 on the vectric products. I wound up picking the vcarve pro also.

I downloaded a free trial of sheetcam and tried to figure out both lazy cam and sheet cam, IMHO both were very complicated compared to vcarve. There is a forum for vcarve with help and support also. $$ for vcarve pro is more than sheetcam but I think that they have a lower priced 2D software now that is avaliable and I think you can upgrade the 2D later to vcarve pro without having to pay the full price of the vcarve pro. I would still perfer the vectric 2D over sheetcam.

Not that I am advertising for or pushing any peticular software, all seem overpriced to me except for Mach 3, just echoing an opinion that the vectric is pretty simple and works well, even for thick headed guys like me:D

[Marc Shlaes]

I downloaded a Cut2D trial because it came from Vectric and I just didn't like it at all. I was expecting to REALLY like it so maybe my expectations were too high. I also think that the CAM programs that I found in the "reasonable" price category have been designed for a purpose. The Vectric products seem much more in tune to 3D and at least to me, Sheetcam works very well for 2.5D. Just my thoughts. I would love to hear other opinions about apparent strengths and weaknesses.

[Kobus_Joubert]

Thank's guys. I tried LazyCam again, but importing my CorelDraw file in any of the types that you are allowed gave me rubbish on my screen. The lines are all distorted and skew and not what was on my original design. Then I went over to sheetcam. Worked through the first tutorial...the one where you carve the word CAM. Set everything up, generated the g-code. looked in Mach3 and saw that the 'C' was missing. It only shows the A and the M. On the Sheetcam page the work surface, material surface all looked OK. I don't know why, so tonight I will get into the Vcarve stuff to see if I get any luck with this software. Will keep you updated.

[hennie]

Hi Kobus

I downloaded the cut2D and found it easy to work with there is a tutorial download also.Like Ed said chop, chop and it works.Try and export some of the MM laser cut parts in dxf. and play.

Lekker speel!:cool:

[Kobus_Joubert]

Had a quick look at cut2D...much better...will play tonight at home. Maybe after I begged, borrowed and nearly stole all my parts, I should invest in VCarve PRO.. From the documentation available this is the one to have to make life easier.

[Gerald D]

I know that this comment will get up Kobus' nose, but he will take it in the spirit it is intended :). . . . . .

Sorting out your CAM tools, and climbing that learning curve, is something that should ideally be done before you mount the router. Even before, you buy steel. . . . . . . heck, even before you commit yourself to spend a cent.

For all the armchair readers out there: start figuring out how you are going to talk to your beast one day. It is a pretty dumb animal and it will only do exactly what it is told to do . . . including errors and missing instructions.

When you have your kitchen table motors turning, run a couple of your own files (signs, typically) past those motors and see if it looks right. If it looks wrong at that point, it is going to look far worse when 200 pounds of gantry make the same wrong moves.

This thread subject of CAM, should be getting a lot more attention than what we have seen so far. The physical building of the machine is a passing phase......after that it is CAM every day for the rest of its life.

[Kobus_Joubert]

Up my nose...bul twang... runnig down my back that is what it is.... I agree with Gerald, once the beast is build, you will spend most of the time with the program that drives it. I have lots of knowledge when it comes to vinyl cutting for signs, can use CoreDraw for all my needs (2D) and thought that getting my designs onto the beast will be easy. I have spend some time with the Kitchen Project, but only now that the beast is moving on my commands I realise what it is actually doing. So for me it's a chicken and egg situation. Just playing around with programs without seeing some physical output does not alway make sense...maybe I am a much better practical type guy...but I will get there...promise :D

[sailfl]

Kobus,

I agree with your approach for me. I will have to have the machine working and run some test designs and cuts to work out the software. I am a Software Engineer. I have looked a lot of the tutorials available with Vectric and I have a copy of ArtCam Pro but I will need the hands on to see the interface and to work the stuff out in my head.

I like the Vectric products and their prices. I think ArtCam has potential but they have a hefty price. I also am going to need CoralDraw because a lot of free stuff comes in their format and not much else will read it.

[normand blais]

http://www.mecsoft.com/rc2/rhinocam2.html

A beta version of Rhinocam2 has been release last week .You need to have rhinocam1 to try it . The price has not been release yet ,if they have a promotional deal I let you know, It is a software that you can grow with . The basic version is really good for starter ,an upgrade is available for 4axes ,and the pro version has many more toolpath option even now indexed 5axes ,but I am not there yet. It has postprocessor for a lot of machines ex.
http://rhinocam.com/Downloads/posts.html
I figure been still young at little over 50 I learn a software that I can take with me hopefully the rest of my life ,weather I route wood, plastic, or foam on a MM, or steel on a mill, or wax and gold on a portable mini machine.
Some company would like us to belive that we need a special software for every kind of work.Wizzard for this and that might be handy but after while ,once you understand the logic behind them the magic is gone . Computer design is computre design ,and cam is cam no mather what software. The most valuable thing I have is my time ,and as time go by it get even more valuable . To change software is to time consuming and I like that there is no end to that steep learning hill. I understand that not every one think like that, but if someone is willing to build a MM I doubt they stop once it is done.
Normand

[normand blais]

http://www.mecsoft.com/Mec/Newsletter/ENewsAug2008/ENewsAug2008.html

Rhinocam2 beta release ,small pre release special . I am not relate to them,
just a happy customer.

[DMS]

I found this Mach 1 filter for importing DXF, HPGL, BMP and JPG files on this Mach forum page, maybe most of you guys know about it -

http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php/topic,6544.0.html

[Gerald D]

Importing DXF, HPGL, BMP and JPG direct into Mach is not as useful as it might sound for someone new to CNC. Particularly those BMP and JPG files, which are raster (not vector) files are going to send your cutter...... in what direction? Imagine a spinning cutter trying to read colours and shades . . . . it is going to be disappointing. There is no substitute for getting a CAM program - even then, they don't do too well with raster input.

[DMS]

Thanks for you input Gerald, I am still in learning phase.

[Gerald D]

Taking a dxf straight into a cutting machine is also interesting.......your machine cuts the lines (vectors) in the same sequence that you drew them.

If you drew a square with a typical CAD program, you will probably draw the baseline (left to right), copy that baseline higher up to make the top of the square, draw the left side from bottom to top, copy the left to the right. The dxf file output from your CAD will contain that square in the same sequence. If you give that direct to Mach, the cutter will plunge bottom left then move right and the z-slide will pull out. Then it will plunge top left move right and pull out. Then plunge bottom left . . . . . . . . you get the idea . . . . . .

[DMS]

Very interesting tip. That's new for me. I'll try in that sequence.
Next tip plz :)

[Gerald D]

No, no, no! That is a terrible sequence for cutting a square! You want it to plunge once, go right around and pull-up once. CAM programs figure that out for you.

[Kobus_Joubert]

I am so exited I cannot wait for the weekend. Just found out from Mark at Vectric.com that I can take some of the 3d files you can buy from www.vectorart3d.com. Do you tool path / cutter setup in the FREE program that they supply. Then import this toolpath into my CUT2D program...add some more vectors, toolpaths etc and have truely 3D stuff. I have played with the 3D Machinist software and the sample file, but because I could not get that sample into my existing work I did not bother any further. Now that they advised me of this method I might not need Vectric Aspire anymore...let's see what happens.

[Kobus_Joubert]

Well I will be off to Beaufort West tomorrow morning early, only to get back home late on Friday and as I cannot wait I tried it this afternoon.

Good news...I can generate the 3D toolpaths in the free 3D Machinist...save it to a file and then import that file into my CUT2D....add my own borders etc and away you go. Come on world now I am ready to make nice 3D stuff....pity you have to buy the designs from them and with our exchange rate it is still a bit expensive, but at least I get a 3D file that works.

[astrolavista]

Kobus,

I have downloaded some Free reliefs from http://cnc4free.org/ to use with Aspire.. You just have to ask for a username and a password. The reliefs are in the download section.

R

[Kobus_Joubert]

Thanks for the info Rene, but Cut2D cannot import STL files. I have looked previously at the cnc4free site, but it will not help me unless I find the money to buy ASPIRE.

[inventall]

Post #13 Should be front page front and center! I wish I started looking in to this at the beginning. I have been banging my head against the wall for days:confused: trying to figure out what cad and cam programs to buy.

The problem is I don't want to learn a program just to find out I don't like it. (I am Irish so I will stick with something that sucks.) Is there a site that ranks cam or cad programs, something like "Consumer Reports"? Something I can trust like the MM forum. I have been watching a lot of video on Aspire It seems great:confused:. $2K:eek: but like Gerald said "......after that it is CAM every day for the rest of its life.":)

Trying to get this sorted out before I return to the machine on the 16th.

[Gerald D]

Pete, Aspire is the flavour of the month, but I can't justify it's price tag for the type of jobs that earn the bread and butter money. Aspire creates beautiful 3D products, but they have long cutting times and it is hard to find top-paying clients for machine created art.

The products from the Vectric stable are excellent, but they have many different products at various price levels, for different types of work. Don't be surprised if their lowest budget Cut2D turns out to be your highest income earner.

[inventall]

I think my problem is I don't understand the limitations of the programs:o. I will end up doing a variety of things with this machine and do not want to be to limited or have it take a lot of time to create. I do a lot of work for a hi-end Party planer. Not to long ago I had to make 16 chess peace half's about 16inches tall. They asked me for them on Friday and needed them for Monday I got paid $2500 for them:D and spent all weekend at the lathe than cut them in half:(. I never no what I am going to do next. I have plans for a lot of cabinet style work soon too.

It seems impossible to determine what programs will be best for me with out downloading each one, learn how to use it, play with it for a few days and than decide if I like it. I think this will drive me insane.(well more insane:eek:)

[normand blais]

Hi Kobus maybe you can try freemill for your 3d it will import stl .
http://www.mecsoft.com/Mec/Products/FreeMill.shtml
Normand

[Kobus_Joubert]

Thanks for the link Normand, will go and have a look

[Kobus_Joubert]

Feedback on FreeMill....well as my dad used to say....Son, Nothing is for Free....

I tried it, and maybe I am not using it correctly, but it is of little use as it is. I had a STL file...loaded it into FreeMill, but then found out that I cannot change the size of my object. Looks like this program can only take a design and then generate the G-Code for it. I would like to Size and Position it where and how I want. FreeMill cannot do it.

Secondly there is no Post Processor for Mach3. I used several options and the GENERAL one seems to be the best.

The other problem I encountred was my FEEDRATE. I set it up to my liking....when it generates the code it either have F=1 or even slower (F=0.4). Maybe I am doing something wrong, so if somebody else could have a look, please indicate where and what I am doing wrong. I did manage to EDIT the file to a Feedrate that would move my BBB, but this is not the ideal situation.
:(

[normand blais]

Hi Kobus
Here is the page for the post http://www.mecsoft.com/DownloadPosts.shtml
I use the full version but maybe it work the same in freemill ,you drag the mach3 post into " C:\Program Files\MecSoft Corporation\FreeMill\Posts" some info from administration http://www.mecsoft.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=618&highlight=freemill or http://www.mecsoft.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=782&highlight=freemill do a search on free mill on the forum

Dont expected it to scale or rotate mirror or any cad stuff ,just cam. I download and try it ,I see it only raster no rough . It is confusing like driving an automatic car after driving manual all your life.
Normand

[normand blais]

Kobus you can use www.rhino3d.com for your scaling and cad need .You can save 25 times with it
Normand

[Kobus_Joubert]

Thanks Normand will have a nother look and see if the post proc. makes any difference.

[cnctoybox]

Feedback on FreeMill....well as my dad used to say....Son, Nothing is for Free....

:(

while I can normally agree with that statement this time I would have to disagree:)
there are a great number of free programs out there that can assist in creating some really cool stuff
freemill can be a great program under the right circumstances , I generate a lot of models from bitmaps and other stuff with gmax then I use freemill to generate the code , the two programs combined which are both free have generated 2.5d images that many pro softwares can struggle to produce ,
this is another program that is currently under developement bmp bender http://www.twmessenger.com/index_files/Software.htm . it produces high quality stl reliefs from bitmaps but there is no scaling at this point of time so I use meshlab http://meshlab.sourceforge.net/ to translate the size by scaling it up or down , I've done a few cuts with models that were generated from that software and they came out great
one thing about downoading and installing bmp bender is you have to be very patient if you don't have the latest net frameworks installed , the install will then be painfully slow but well worth the wait

[KenC]

I alway keep Gerald's advise, Look up CAM ASAP is one of them, so now that I managed to get the motors sing, I feel its time to look here.
Appearently, Aspire is came highly recommended & the number keep growing despite of the price.
I agreed with Kobus's father that nothing comes for free. With Aspire, we can "buy" learning time.... But its really really expensive! may have to do some serious meditation over this...

[sailfl]

Ken,

You don't have to buy learning time. There are fee tutorial videos for Aspire.

[Gerald D]

I alway keep Gerald's advise, Look up CAM ASAP is one of them...

:confused: I can't even remember hearing of CAM ASAP and I have definitely never used it.

[bradm]

ASAP = As Soon As Possible. Translation: "Google 'CAM' early in your project and learn all you can about it".

[normand blais]

I tough vetric was free lunch since it come free with many cnc router. Maybe the reason for the hygrade complex

[Gerald D]

Thanks Brad! Sometimes I wonder why I cannot remember things. :o:(

[KenC]

I know that this comment will get up Kobus' nose, but he will take it in the spirit it is intended :). . . . . .

Sorting out your CAM tools, and climbing that learning curve, is something that should ideally be done before you mount the router. Even before, you buy steel. . . . . . . heck, even before you commit yourself to spend a cent.

For all the armchair readers out there: start figuring out how you are going to talk to your beast one day. It is a pretty dumb animal and it will only do exactly what it is told to do . . . including errors and missing instructions.

When you have your kitchen table motors turning, run a couple of your own files (signs, typically) past those motors and see if it looks right. If it looks wrong at that point, it is going to look far worse when 200 pounds of gantry make the same wrong moves.

This thread subject of CAM, should be getting a lot more attention than what we have seen so far. The physical building of the machine is a passing phase......after that it is CAM every day for the rest of its life.

Gerald, you had gave one too many sound advice for yourself to remember.... :)

I'm to blame as well, my "English" is weird.... and thanks Brad & Normand for clearing things out.

Nils, in"buying time" I meant Aspire is easy to pick-up & use, others takes deeper learning to get to the same results.

[normand blais]

(easy to pick-up & use, others takes deeper learning to get to the same results.) if it could be that easy:)

[KenC]

Normand, sounds like you have some sound advice that I can use. Please fire away, I'm all ears.

[normand blais]

Hi Ken
What would be the best cad cam for you is like what would be the best car for you.
What is it you want to make with your MM ?

anyway I would not suggest toyota for a while

[riesvantwisk]

I think a quick sum-up would be:

a) Are you a designer, or b) are you only accepting files?


For a) you need to take a look what industry you are in

- There are excellent programs to design kitchen furniture and they save you a hell lot of time then doing it yourself in Autoklad. E cabinet is such an example of a design tool, but there are many others.
- If you are in the sign industry, then artcam or vectric is a good start, there are also some others, but they are hidden in the dark areas of the internet
- If you do more of custom in 3D, one off's, or create the same items but in different sizes/types (not sign related) then using a free form CAD tool might be better for you, they often (but not always) come with CAM tools build in, to name a few inventor, Pro/E, SolidW, they are complicated. They are parametric and if you change 'something', often the CAM files are changed accordingly and you don't have to re-do your CAM work. Ideal if you make items under some design, but allow your customer to change the width, hight, length of the item in question.
- If you do a lot of 2D cutting, then autocad/qcad might be better for you with a simple dxf2gcode converter, there is no need to get a complex 3D tool if you do mostly cutting.

b) If you just accept files to get, but don't do any designs, then you need to make very sure you work with a CAM program that can accept many file types, and understand the customers requirements, understand the limitations of your MM and understand the CAM tool to implement them as such in a timely manner (time is many, right?) the better you can create cut files in terms of time vs cut quality, to more jobs you can do in a day. PS, see what tools your customers use a lot, and get a copy of that yourself so you can always open the file in question in there CAD tool... If you have the $$$

So, it depends what your business is and what the ROI is going to be.
It also helps that you are comfortable with a specific tool, for myself I could never get used to Autoklad, I tried 3D once in Autoklad and got angry after 1 hour of working. That said, on the shipyard we had a lisp tool that could properly calculate 3D hulls with cutout/flatten calculations, very nice...

Also, look around you what friends/companies are using and what is supported by a local reseller, it's not very efficient to use tool XYZ that is amazing, but nobody uses, so when you have question you are stuck, it's always good to have buddies you can ask to...

Just my 1 cent..

Ries

[KenC]

Ries, thanks for the insight, opens up my horizon... will spend some effort to find out what others are doing around here & give more thought into what I'll need & getting into.

[VoltsAndBolts]

I started with ACE Converter as a free CAM solution but eventually moved to CUT2D.

[Kobus_Joubert]

I believe you will not be dissapointed with CUT2D, but once you start using the machine more and more, you would like to do more, but will be limited by the software. I started with CUT2D as wel and eventually ended up buying Vcarve Pro. Now I need Aspire to satisfy my needs....where will it stop.

[VoltsAndBolts]

Yes I can see myself moving to Vcarve Pro sometime in the future. :)

[PEU]

I believe you will not be dissapointed with CUT2D, but once you start using the machine more and more, you would like to do more, but will be limited by the software. I started with CUT2D as wel and eventually ended up buying Vcarve Pro. Now I need Aspire to satisfy my needs....where will it stop.

What are the features of aspire that you want the most being a vcarve customer?

[Kobus_Joubert]

3D work and now that the latest Aspire and Vcarve have the indexer function, (wrapping) and the EASE of using Vectric programs.

[normand blais]

Hello Kobus
Looking at the way you been going I dont think you will be stopping soon. Get ready to buy lot of software or/and get some free one. After you done your wrap you will be wanting to do real 3D 4axes indexing work and then more

Where I think that there is no free lunch is in the EASE of use . I do not know many programs but I figure it is pretty much the same idea for most of them, for ex. few years back rhino 4 came out, it had over 600 new commands and now has load of plugins like this http://wiki.mcneel.com/labs/panelingtools
Are they easy or hard ? Are the nedded or wanted
And that is just the cad part .
Add up the price and learning time of all the sw you buy or borrow ,and compare to sw that would do the same and more in one environement, and all that you learn is alway used not changing from 1 sw to the next
With that apetite of your's I think you will never stop wanting more , I would suggest someting big and filling with extras,:) and doggy bag for later.

[Kobus_Joubert]

I am sure Aspire will fill me up just OK..:)

[normand blais]

Bon Appétit mon ami!

[Kobus_Joubert]

Or ArtCam Pro..:D

[normand blais]

Art cam is not realy a 3D Software ,but a fancy highfeild bitmap and raster to vector software great for relief work
if it is not to expensive ...;)

[KenC]

I tested the Vcarve trial & really like it a lot.
Seriously thinking where I can find the money...

[zool]

http://www.cambam.co.uk/

[Johannescnc]

I like cambam too! It isn't elaborate or 3-D... but it works gooad and not too difficult to learn.

[KenC]

Here (http://www.freebyte.com/cad/cadcam.htm#cadcamsystems) is a good compilation of available CAM software.
Hoipe this will help someone.