Cutting the angle iron down with CerMet tipped circular saws

[Marc Shlaes]

Moved from another thread:

David,

Take a look at the Steelmax saw or the Morse Metal Devil. I looked at it following GregJ's suggestion and ended up buying one off eBay for a hundred bucks. You will simply not believe how well it works. It cuts 1/4 inch steel like butter. It is a fairly simple matter to rig up a jig to cut the rail down straight and then grind.

It is one of those "how did I ever get by without that????????" tools.

Check it out!

[Greg J]

David,

I second that. I couldn't grind a V edge to save my life, but cutting a straight, flat edge with a steel cutting "skill" saw was a piece of cake.

[dmoore]

Take a look at the Steelmax saw or the Morse Metal Devil. I looked at it following GregJ's suggestion and ended up buying one off eBay for a hundred bucks. You will simply not believe how well it works. It cuts 1/4 inch steel like butter.

Marc -

I gave in and purchased one of the SteelMax circular saws from ebay. I managed to find an almost new one for $34 + $40 shipping. Thanks for the advice!

david

[dmoore]

So, what I'd really like is angle in 2.5"x1" or 2.5"x1.125" - both of which are not standard bar channel sizes here in the US. What is standard is 2"x1.25x.25".

Update - I couldn't get 2"x1.25" angle from my steel supplier so I purchased a SteelMax circular saw as recommend by Marc and will setup a jig to cut it (hopefully) straight.

[Greg J]

David,

I bolted a 1"x1" angle to the bottom of the saw. Use it as a rip fence.

[smreish]

Yep....drill two holes one size, larger size in the mating angle and bolt up parallel to blade. The better the set up...the better the end result.

[Gerald D]

I think the saw gives a bigger risk of cutting the rail down too far. If something goes wrong, the jig should rather force the saw to go wider rather than narrower.

At the end, I would still use the grinder (with a thick disk) to get the final finish of the reference line.

http://www.mechmate.com/Forum/messages/11/3802.jpg

[dmoore]

Cut from another thread:

Kobus, how long did it take you to cut the angles?

Here was the breakdown for my rails:

* Build the skate: 2 hours
* Cut the rails (35ft) with the SteelMax circular saw - 20 minutes
* Grind the rails (35ft) with the skate -2 hours
* Trip to home depot to replace dead grinder - 1 hour

[Greg J]

* Cut the rails (35ft) with the SteelMax circular saw - 20 minutes

Did you attach a rip fence to the bottom of the saw or make a jig?

Interested how you cut the rails.

Thanks,
Greg

[domino11]

David,
I am interested in your steel cutting saw setup as well. Pictures would be great. Did you cut to exactly the height you wanted or did you leave a little extra to grind with the skate to the exact height? :)

[dmoore]

Did you attach a rip fence to the bottom of the saw or make a jig? Thanks,
Greg

The SteelMax saw has a rip fence with it. I just measured out carefully and then did a test run on another spare section of angle iron. I really can't imagine another, faster and accurate method based on the cost and time. The finish was nearly perfect - no burrs, gouges, etc. It also only cost me 70$ USD off ebay (including shipping). I called the company to give a testimonal and they even sent me an extra $45 blade. Highly recommend the SteelMax saw - you'll surely find use on this project and I'm sure other projects later.

[dmoore]

David,
I am interested in your steel cutting saw setup as well. Pictures would be great. Did you cut to exactly the height you wanted or did you leave a little extra to grind with the skate to the exact height? :)

There really wasn't much to it - that's why I didn't even take photos. I simple put one leg of the angle (after it was cut down) into the vice, then setup the rip fence on the SteelMax saw and then ran down the length of the angle with slow and steady pressure. Less than 10 minutes per 10ft length. It took longer to cut the rails to length and get the saw setup.

I cut them to the final 1.1" since the sake rides on the top of the rail, its nearly impossible to trim them down after the fact.

If anyone in Houston, TX needs rails, let me know...

[cobra427mnsi]

Dave

What is the difference between the SeelMax saw and any other portable Skil type saw other than the blade. Could I just order a 7 1/4" SteelMax blade and use it on my portable wood cutting saw?

Paul

[Doug_Ford]

Paul,

I don't own a SteelMax but I understand that it spins the blade at a slower speed than your regular saw.

[cobra427mnsi]

Doug,

That would make sense in order to keep everything cooler, thanks.
Anyone who has used one before. Does the saw spin with fewer rpm than a regular saw?

Paul

[Marc Shlaes]

The SteelMax saw definitely turns slower. Also, the blade arbor is a different size that a typical 7.25" circular saw I'm sure to discourage exactly this. To each his own, but I personally would not try it. The saw is not that expensive if you watch eBay and it is an absolutely fantastic thing to have around if you anticipate doing any further metal work.

[ekdenton]

Guess I am old fashion since I haven't broke down and bought one yet. From what I read on the hand held saws and the larger chop saw type, they do turn at a slower rpm and have more torque. Also the teeth on the blade are ground at a different angle than a wood saw blade (so the wood saw blades with carbide teeth will not work for cutting steel). I have some customers that swear by these saws and say that they cutt steel like butter and they even cutt when some of the blade teeth break off. Others customers that tried them and said after a few cutts the blade was gone and the blades are not cheap like the abrasive type blades. So they got rid of them and went back to the abrasive blades. Possibly the difference is either the brand of blades or maybe the way the operators are using them?

[Greg J]

Paul,

My experience with the Steelmax has been great. I cut every member of the MM with it and have nothing negative to comment on. The cuts are clean, the blades lasted a long time (approx. 2 or 3 blades, I forget), etc.

I've also cut 2-7/8 drill pipe for table legs with ease. Cutting thin metal sheeting for building additions has also been nice.

[Gerald D]

I am not that excited by the Steelmax. My first reservation is the safety of a handheld circular saw for steel. Is there any history of accidents with the blades cracking up or spilling off their teeth?

And then I don't believe the cut finish is good enough for the grinding skate - so it does not remove the need to grind the top and bevels of the rail.

[smreish]

Comment on saw vs. cutting wheel.
The steelmax is a nice tool, but with all of them I find their can be errors / cut quality.

I was keen to remember that we are machining a surface to a significantly high tolerance using very affordable and accesible means.

The grinder with a cut wheel method does 2 things very important processes for us in the Mechmate world.
1 - makes certain that the cut is exactly from bottom of angle iron to top of "FLAT" surface is 1.1" or whatever you decide is the final resting height of your VEE.
2 - makes certain that your cut is exactly the right height because step #3 is grinding the VEE. This is a TOP reference grind that is most worlds is not standard practice.

The MM method of using a top referenced grinding tool dictates that we have a smooth, regular and reliable top surface.

If using the steelmax, I would still require you to grind it smooth after cutting to maintain tolerance.

I guess the moral here your really not saving a lot of time to do the same process - but precision is paramount.

...my humble opinion.

Sean

[dmoore]

I am not that excited by the Steelmax. My first reservation is the safety of a handheld circular saw for steel. Is there any history of accidents with the blades cracking up or spilling off their teeth?

While I've not had any teeth break off, the design of the blade guard seems like it would capture any broken teeth. Plus, there are plenty of chop-saws with toothed baldes that spin at speeds well above a cold saw.

And then I don't believe the cut finish is good enough for the grinding skate - so it does not remove the need to grind the top and bevels of the rail.

The undressed cut of my rail was so smooth that I didn't even clean it up. The skate ran fine over the cut rail.

I would really suggest getting a steel cutting circular saw for yourself. I would assume that you'd feel the same Greg and I feel after using it. Tell you what, if I build the second MechMate for a profit, I'll send you one free.

[J.R. Hatcher]

I have not tried the Steelmax saw to cut rails. I was however very impressed when I cut 1/4" steel with Marc's, it's nothing like you think, very much under control, but safety glasses would definitely be a good idea.
My suggestion would be after cutting down the rails, use a caliper or micrometer and measure every 6" down the rail. If you are satisfied with that get the rail flat and slide a mill file down the cut just to see where it does or doesn't touch. If you are satisfied with that use the skate to cut the angles. If you are not satisfied use the skate to grind the rails flat.
I was so impressed I bought several of the Steelmax 2802 model.

[Gerald D]

Sliding a mill file down the edge will easily and quickly take care of my "finish quality" concern, if it is justified at all. So we can put that one to bed.

From what I hear, this thing cuts fast . . . . . . From my woodworking attempts, I have learnt that ripping a plank with a portable skilsaw is a hit & miss affair, so I am afraid that the rail may suddenly be gouged too deep by the Steelmax, thus ruining it completely. It doesn't strike me that an amateur metalworker bloke can trim a narrow angle iron down accurately with this vicious machine. Since I don't have the tiniest experience of a Steelmax (it is not sold here), I have to be cautious. And I want to guard against this forum sending a message that the Steelmax is essential for for building a MechMate.

Could someone post a photo of the fence they rigged up on their Steelmax?

[J.R. Hatcher]

The steelmax comes with its own fence maybe 10" to 12" long. It fastens to the saw's bottom plate in 2 places. I see how this could have its degree of accuracy, however I have been using a circular saw most of my life. Even today I don't like having to use one I am not use to...

[Greg J]

Could someone post a photo of the fence they rigged up on their Steelmax?

(Will probably make a separate thread for this one day.....)


I made my own using 1"x1"x1/8" angle. When I get home tonight, let me search my photo's and I'll post a picture.

[dmoore]

From what I hear, this thing cuts fast . . . . . .

The SteelMax circular saw cuts .25" angle at about the rate of 20-30 seconds per linear foot.

From my woodworking attempts, I have learnt that ripping a plank with a portable skilsaw is a hit & miss affair, so I am afraid that the rail may suddenly be gouged too deep by the Steelmax, thus ruining it completely. It doesn't strike me that an amateur metalworker bloke can trim a narrow angle iron down accurately with this vicious machine.

I've seen some pretty impressive things built over a hundred years ago, prior to the advent of power tools and I marvel that these people didn't have hundredth of an inch accurate table saws, routers, jigs saws and the like. They did it all with hand tools. Also (in more modern times) in my trips to China, I was constantly amazed by what people with little means could accomplish - by hand, things that in the United States we wouldn't even think of doing by hand - and the quality was on-par what we would produce by machine.

So, I think the comment about the "amateur metalworker" may be accurate - it's very much about skill. Sure, some tools make skill nearly irrelevant but even cheap tools can, with enough time and focus, made to produce an end result just as good as something produced with a "professional' tool.

I personally feel that if someone takes the time to setup the SteelMax rip fence properly and lock it down (~5 minutes), that there is no reason that someone with the most basic skills can do this. I might even say that non-metal working people might feel more comfortable with the "circular saw" than the grinder as it is something they have familiarity with.

Since I don't have the tiniest experience of a Steelmax (it is not sold here), I have to be cautious. And I want to guard against this forum sending a message that the Steelmax is essential for for building a MechMate.

I sure hope I've never conveyed that the SteelMax is essential for the build of a MechMate, as the SteelMax saw is NOT essential for the MechMate build. On a personal level - I'd sure say that it does the work of a lot of tools you might need (chop saw, band saw, grinder, etc) and I am completely sold on it. Had it not been for Marc Shlaes (and Greg J) on this board responding to my frustrations with cutting down the rail using other means (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10904&postcount=5), I would have never purchased the SteelMax saw. I'm very happy they did steer me in that direction. I also appreciate that others posted many other methods (all of which I reviewed), I wasn't confused at all. It did take more time to review but I feel it was well worth every minute.

Could someone post a photo of the fence they rigged up on their Steelmax?

I can do one better than that. I've posted a YouTube video of me cutting a rail down to 1.1". It then shows the resulting cut. Since the quality of the video isn't that great, I've attached some photos of my other rail that hopefully are a bit more clear. The total time to cut 5 feet of rail, with an old blade is just under 2 minutes. I make a mistake and refer at the end to the "uncut rail" - it should be "cut rail".

YouTube Video of Rail Cutting with the Steel Max Saw:
http://www.youtube.com/v/PWUCXcj3a8E

I am extending an offer to anyone who wants it - if you want a 1ft sample section of the rail, PM me and I will send it to you for $10 (US domestic only).

Gerald, if you'd like a section, just PM your address and I'll sent it to you free of charge. If you'd like to try out a SteelMax saw, find one on eBay (or any other retailer), buy it and I will re-ship it to you free.

[ekdenton]

Two questions on the steelmax.

#1 How did you clamp or hold the angle straight while cutting? When I cutt my x rails with a grinder I had to lay a 10" channel on the forklift + a 1/4" x 12" flat steel on top of the channel, and prop the ends up so that everything was straight and level before cutting since most every piece of steel has some degree of curve. I take it your standing or clamping the angle up on it's edge in a vice, or tack welding it to a table of sort that is straight?


#2 After purchasing the steel angle iron + the steelmax aren't you above the cost of the aluminum angle and premade hardened rail which would be straighter, harder and have more surface area than the DYI rails?

[dmoore]

How did you clamp or hold the angle straight while cutting? When I cutt my x rails with a grinder I had to lay a 10" channel on the forklift + a 1/4" x 12" flat steel on top of the channel, and prop the ends up so that everything was straight and level before cutting since most every piece of steel has some degree of curve. I take it your standing or clamping the angle up on it's edge in a vice, or tack welding it to a table of sort that is straight?

I ground my rails but first cutting down the one leg, then I clamped the rail to my 4'x8' welding table that is pretty flat. I ground both sides and then slid it down and ground down the next section. For those that have the main channel at the time they are grinding rails, I would recommend clamping it and grinding it there (as others have mentioned).

After purchasing the steel angle iron + the steelmax aren't you above the cost of the aluminum angle and premade hardened rail?

I guess this is where individual situations come into play. I only paid $70, including shipping, for the SteelMax saw, so it's full retail price wasn't an issue for me. I also knew that I could use the SteelMax saw for other projects in the future (even more now that I've used one).

Prices listed below assume a table size of 4'x8'. My total cost to produce rails was:

Grinder: $100 (with wheel)
Skate: $19.60 (8 @ 2.45) bearings from Superior Bearing
Eccentrics (free since you have to have them for the z-slide)
Misc bolts, nuts and washer - $25 (see complete list here: http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10498&postcount=43)
SteelMax saw $70 (yes I know it's not always that cheap)
40ft of 2.5" x 2" x .250" Angle - $110
Total cost of rails (X, Y AND Z): $254.60 USD
I exclude the cost of the skate metal itself since it generally comes included with the "mechmate" bent steel packages. The time for me to grind rails was 2-4 hours depending on how your figure it - let's just say 5-9 hours to be safe.
I also used the skate to grind my Z slide: http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=753 for no additional cost.Had I built the Al rail option:

SteelMax saw $70 or other saw (or Al cutting blade for my circular or table saw) to cut down Al rails to 2.5" x .6 x .24
2x 12' hardened tracks, 2x 7' hardened tracks, 2' hardened track (Z) - $378 (from http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=323&postcount=1)
2x 16' x 3" x 2" x 1/4 @ $212, 2x 8' x 3" x 2" x 1/4" @ $89. (from http://www.metalsdepot.com/products/alum2.phtml?page=aangle&LimAcc=$LimAcc) - I'll give you that the 2 1/2" angle and a local purchase would be cheaper, so I'll drop that cost from $302 to $225 to be fair
Misc bolts/nuts/washers for attaching rail to the angle - $10
Total cost of X/Y/Z rails: $683
Note: This excludes the cost that might be incurred to cut down the z-slide (SteelMax saw would work well here :) ). Also the amount of time to drill the rail and Al angle should be taken into account (unsure how long this actually takes)
Note: There is some price difference for shipping 12' as opposed to 8' rails (which then are butt jointed). Unharded 8' rails appear to be sold for $51 per rail. This would put them at about $204 plus shipping.Total cost difference between the two systems: ~$429 USD. If your build total build cost (without the difference of $429) was $6000, that would be a 7% increase in the overall cost of the MechMate to go with Al rails over ground steel rails.

If any of my numbers are off or if I missed anything (for either system), please feel free to post corrections.

Al rails....which would be straighter, harder and have more surface area than the DYI rails?

Straighter is up for debate. My rails are pretty darn straight. When I milled down my spoil board it was, to my eye, perfectly flat (according to my 5ft straight edge) without any dips or valleys. As I mentioned in another post - I think if there is
variability, it would have been in the hot rolled steel main channels - now those are NOT "completely" flat (as in cold drawn Al). So, I would have put really flat Al on top of a not so flat leg of hot rolled steel. Either way, according this this post http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=338&postcount=2 it won't be better than .005" without special measures. That post also points out that the accuracy of the rail comes not from the rail itself but the Al angle itself - so this then comes down to how good of a job the builder did when they cut down the Al rail.

I would buy the harder since Superior Bearing says it's hardened (though no reference is provided to the level of hardening) - if you paid the extra money for them. I'm assuming it to be harder than standard mild steel.

As to the "more surface area" - could you elaborate? I'm assuming we are talking about T3 from the following chart:
http://www.superiorbearing.com/images/guidewheels_track_chrt3.jpg

I have no issue with the Al rails - if someone was worried about the steel rails or just didn't want to fuss with it, I surely wouldn't try to stop them. There are cost, tool and skill differences here and it doesn't appear there is one good obvious option.

As I've offered before - I'm happy to sell pre-ground rail, local pickup in Houston, TX, USA (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=749)

[Greg J]

I made my own using 1"x1"x1/8" angle. When I get home tonight, let me search my photo's and I'll post a picture.

Geeez, I miss one evening and ..... I'll leave it at that.

Here's the pic promised. I couldn't find the original 1"x1" angle, so I placed some scrap 1"x1" to show the configuration. I just made a rip fence on the bottom of the saw using the 1"x1". I bolted the angle to the bottom where you see two holes. There's another set of holes at the "top" that are difficult to see. It worked rather well.

1510

[Gerald D]

Did you run the fence against the 1.1" side, or against the off-cut side? If ever I went the Steelmax route, I would probably run the fence against the off-cut and then then finish the 1.1" with the grinder.

[Greg J]

No sir, I ran the fence against the side with the angle. (might be some language difference). It really doesn't matter. What ever method works.

I'm tempted to just send you a SteelMax saw so you can experiment with it. I was skeptical at first, until my buddy demonstrated his. The finished cut is good, and it's not hot to the touch after cutting. That's a nice feature when cutting painted metal.

[Gerald D]

I am toying with the idea of importing some "Steelmax" blades to run on a modified "chopsaw". The correct speed will be observed. (If the Steelmax is so good, why isn't there a "chopsaw" version?).

Not interested in a complete Steelmax saw motor because it is not supported by a local service center. Steelmax may already be exporting to SA via some dealer, and I would first ask them about that.

[Alan_c]

Gerald

Welcome Back. We have the Evolution range available here in SA, contact Cape Tool Centre 0861 106 389 or 021 982 3546 (082 886 8856 Henk), they sell machines and blades. I have one of their 355mm cut off saw which works beautifully but the blades are pricey (just received one for about R1100.00). The user has to be careful as the tips are prone to break off if not used with care (vans!) you cant bang the blade down.

I have no doubt that the blades can be used on another saw, the speed and gearing must be correct though (about 1600 rpm). This will work fine on a belt driven chopsaw if the pulleys are changed, but using them on a skill saw type machine may be tricky to get the speed right. The Evolution machine has a built in gearbox to reduce speed and increase torque.

[dmoore]

I am toying with the idea of importing some "Steelmax" blades to run on a modified "chopsaw". The correct speed will be observed. (If the Steelmax is so good, why isn't there a "chopsaw" version?).

Funny you should ask....
http://www.steelmax.com/saws_s14.htm
http://www.steelmax.com/images/s14.gif


Though I've had /excellent/ results with the Milwaukee (I have no idea if they are in SA) abrasive chopsaw for which there is a dry-cut saw of the same version, so I think I'd be tempted to go that route since it's hold down and base is better:

http://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-6190-20-14-Inch-Cutoff-Machine/dp/B00023S336/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1212735951&sr=8-1
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EZH2YP49L._SL500_AA280_.jpg

[Gerald D]

Looks like I should have said "cold saw" instead of "chopsaw" I am thinking of permanent floor mounted, three-phase powered, brushless, quiet running machine that can run all day. The production sawing of steel is very common, yet I have not yet seen carbide-tipped blades used in heavy production. Circular saws are used, but they don't have carbide tips. If the carbide tips are so great, why doesn't someone like http://www.haeberle.de/ offer such a version?

More references:

http://bandsawblade.com/circularsawblades.htm

http://www.metaldevil.com/index.html

http://www.steelmax.com/home.htm

[Gerald D]

The rated max speeds of the MetalDevil (http://www.metaldevil.com/mdsizes.html) versus the SteelMax (http://www.steelmax.com/blades.htm) are vastly different.

What is the nameplate speed on the SteelMax machines you guys have used, and what is the diam. and marked speed of the blades? Their web page is very light on specs - only says 15 Amp. Their FAQ page says 1750Watt, 120V, 2700 rpm.

MetalDevil gives some specs on the saws: 9" model
• Arbor Size: 25.4mm (1 Inch)
• Amps: 15 Voltage not stated
• Watts: 1,800
• RPM: 2,500
• Blade Size: 9"
• Maximum Cutting Depth: 3.25"

Notice that around 2600 rpm for a 9" blade is much slower than for a grinder which will turn a 9" wheel at over 6000rpm. Do not be tempted to fit these blades to a grinder!

[Alan_c]

Here (http://www.evolutionpowertools.co.uk/uk/evolution_raptor.html#) is a link to the Evolution site, they seem identical to the steelmax.

EVO355 RAPTOR 380mm TCT Steel Cut Off Saw

Motor (230v or 115v 50/60 Hz) (Watts) 2200
RPM No Load (min -1) 1450
Recommended Maximum Duty Cycle (Minutes) 30
Sound Pressure Level (Under Load) (dB(A)) 112.4
Weight (Kg) 23.0
Maximum Dimensions (mm) H 575 W 355 D 600
Maximum Box Cut Capacity 90° (6mm Wall)
Square (mm) 120 x 120
Rectangle (mm) 95 x 180
Round (mm) 130
Maximum Box Cut Capacity 45° (6mm Wall)
Square (mm) 89 x 89
Rectangle (mm) 78 x 110
Round (mm) 105

Blade Specifications
Maximum Diameter (mm) 355
Bore Diameter (mm) 25.4
Maximum Thickness (mm) 2

[Kobus_Joubert]

Nice tool, but not portable (hand model) like the SteelMax.
I know Triton also have a cutsaw of some sort for steel. Only for small sections

Here is a link to it:
http://www.triton.com.au/product.php?id=36

[ekdenton]

If the carbide tips are so great, why doesn't someone like http://www.haeberle.de/ offer such a version?



The original idea of cutting steel with saws lik this is probably pretty old but
actual sales of these saws have only been mainstreem for maybe 4-5 years. I think my local welding shop supplier brought one out about 2002 and gave me a demonstration. Yes it cutt fast but what threw me was the cost of the blades. I think that is the main hold back (even if the blades have been proven to last long) for alot of people. They are waiting to see if it is just a passing fad that will end when users find out the cost of upkeep on the blades. I think the blades have been redesigned and are alot better now than when the saw first came out.

+ most people don't like change even if it is for the better. ;)

[dmoore]

Here (http://www.evolutionpowertools.co.uk/uk/evolution_raptor.html#) is a link to the Evolution site, they seem identical to the steelmax.

Thanks for posting this find - it does appear to be a very close copy of the SteelMax saw. For US people, they have an on-line ordering website here:

http://www.evolutiononlineshop.com/

The price for the "STEELSAW" with the 7" blade is 204.75 - or about $50 to $100 cheaper than the SteelMax sells for new on eBay.

[Greg J]

Harbor Freight (HF) also sells a saw. When my SteelMax failed, I bought one as a backup, but the replacement parts for the SteelMax arrived before the HF saw did. I have not use the HF saw to date.

[Gerald D]

Okay, we have established that a couple of brands are on a very new market. At this stage of the game some brands will already have a better reputation than others. Who makes the better blades? Which ones should be avoided? I would hate to import a couple of blades to discover that I got the bad brand . . . .

[Greg J]

I checked my steel cutting blades this evening. The original blades that came with the SteelMax are worn, so I can't see any writing.

The blades I bought locally, are evolution blades. As best as I can remember, (which doesn't count for much :o ), the quality is the same as the original OEM blades.

[Alan_c]

Here in SA these saws have become very popular with the guys doing structural steel work (factory shells etc) that are replacing their fibre disk cut off saws and angle grinders - the main reason being speed and no loss of cutting depth as the blade is used. The cost of these blades are quite high but the structural guys have calculated the costs to be favourable, they stop using the fibre disk once it can no longer cut through an I beam or column.

I have found it to bery very convenient for my daily maintenance work in the factory - fast and clean, but I doubt I would use one for cutting steel sections all day long in a fabrication environment as the cost of blades may be too high. my father has a HSS blade machine as Gerald referenced above that would be better for this type of environment as long as you can find somebody to accurately sharpen the blades. The tungsten blades are NOT sharpenable, at least not here in CT. These HSS machines cut much slower but the resultant cut is clean not requiring any major deburring such as would be needed with the fibre disk machine.

So as usual its horses for courses, if you want a fast clean cutting machine and don't intend doing a large volume of cutting on an ongoing basis then one of the tungsten blade machine would be a good choice, if however you want a production oriented machine where the cost of consumables has to be factored into production costs and will be cutting small sections (pipe, angle and channel) then the HSS machine would be a better choice. If you just want to chop lengths of steel into handable sections and are not worried about cut quality and burrs then the fibre saw is the cheapest option.

Just my 2c worth...:)

[Gerald D]

Have you tried Renlaw for sharpening the HSS saws? (They actually produce HSS saw blades locally - but are essentially a sharpening company)

[Alan_c]

Yes my Dad uses Renlaw for his blades - nobody better in Cape Town, others have tried but are not consistent.

[Kobus_Joubert]

Good place in Johannesburg for blades and sharpening is LEUCO Tools in Edenvale 011 455 6313

[Alan_c]

Kobus

Be careful with Leuco and steel cutting blades, they are very good with woodwork tooling (on a par with Leitz and Austro) but they have been less than successful with steel blades.

[Gerald D]

Took delivery of a 180mm [7"] Evolution saw yesterday. . . . . . let's see if it will rip the 60 meter [180 ft] of angle iron lying here. (for 5 large MechMates). Did get a spare blade. Local prices R3300 for machine with no blade, R330 per blade (excl.VAT). This is the baby size machine.

[dmoore]

I happen to see this in the circular from Harbor Freight Tools:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/photos/08800-08899/08897.gif

For some reason it is not listed on their web ordering system at harborfreight.com but it is listed as an in-store item here:

http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/tabviewer/webDisplayItem.do?itemnumber=8897

It's currently listed as 74.99$ USD as of 19-Jun-08. It sure looks like it shares some of the SteelMax saw parts (look at the base, guide and the side handle). It does seem to lack the bevel cut option and the laser that the SteelMax has.

I'd be interested in feedback on anyone that has used one of these Harbor Freight saws.

[Gerald D]

A question for the experienced "RailRippers" . . . . .

How much blade did you have protruding from the baseplate of these circular saws? (theoretical "depth-of-cut") I am assuming it was somewhere around 25mm [1"]?

[dmoore]

I left as much of the blade below the base of the saw when I did my rails. My thinking was the same as when I cut wood with a circular saw - that the additional "width" would stabilize the cut.

[Gerald D]

Havn't checked carefully yet, but at full depth the teeth might span more than 6mm [1/4"] as it approaches the steel. I think I should have 2 to 3 tips engaged and cutting . . . . . . ?

[Gerald D]

When in doubt, read the manual . . . .

"Ensure that the blade protrudes a max of 4mm [3/16"] through the material being cut."

However, I think that statement is from a safety perspective and not from tooth life considerations. The tool is used for cutting tubing with thinnish walls, and one cannot do anything about the "angle of attack" in those cases.

[jeffh]

Anxious to hear your review of the Evolution saw, Gerald.

I'm trying to decide which of these metal saws to buy.

The SteelMax has certain advantages (like changeable sole plate angle)
but the Evolution is a much cheaper option (unless I can find a steelmax on eBay...)

Let us know how she fares...

[Gerald D]

From a little bit of testing and reading, the rotation speed matches that of Skilsaws. If I had a Skilsaw, I would probably only have bought the blades. The only thing that is significantly different is the chip catcher for the Evolution. Maybe these things have heavier bearings to handle the fierce chatter? . . . . .

Our 180mm [7"] Evolution does have a changeable sole plate angle.

[jeffh]

Ahhh Thanks Gerald,
I couldn't tell from the picture whether or not the Evolution sole
plate could be adjusted to cut a bevel. Thanks for that info.

For anyone else who's as crazy as myself, I've put together an
Excel spreadsheet to help make the decision or at least gather the data.
Might be useful to others... might not... feel free to toss in the bit bucket.


-Jeffh

Oops. Looks like spreadsheets aren't allowed. My bad.
Here's a PDF (should be safer anyways...)

[Gerald D]

First test on short length of off-cut was not too encouraging - rail height varied by 0.6mm. Surface finish is "smooth" in the sense that it won't draw blood, but it has a rough texture (like leather?). Will be testing on a longer off-cut tomorrow. Thinking of a skate to "dress" that saw-cut surface before tackling the bevelling.

1611

[smreish]

Back in post #20 I found the same to be true on my tests here at the shop. Nice cut, but not machine tolerance as required by the MM.

" If using the steelmax, I would still require you to grind it smooth after cutting to maintain tolerance."

Thus, using the JR style grinder-on-a-shoe, I would dress the cut to the desired finished height.

Sean

[jeffh]

Thanks you guys! For both the feedback on the saw and the tip for finishing the rail height with the grinder-on-a-shoe.

So it sounds like the plan is:
1) Cut the rail to rough size with the saw // Only to save time or get another
tool in the shop. Wife'll love that...
2) Dress the rail to finished height with the grinder/shoe/trashcan setup.
3) Bevel the rail using the JR Skate assembly.

The saw really only saves time since I have to build the height shoe jig anyway. Hmmm....

This was the most daunting task to me so now I think I've got it dialed in.

Thanks again.

[hennie]

Jeff ,seems you like to have new toys in the workshop.

[Gerald D]

So it sounds like the plan is:
1) Cut the rail to rough size with the saw // Only to save time or get another
tool in the shop. Wife'll love that...
2) Dress the rail to finished height with the grinder/shoe/trashcan setup.
3) Bevel the rail using the JR Skate assembly.

The saw really only saves time since I have to build the height shoe jig anyway. Hmmm....

Steps 1 and 2 have been successfully combined with the right cutting disc.

Moving the rail past a fixed grinder (trash can style) has not been proven for long heavy rails. The popular method is to put the rail down on a good bed and then move the grinder.

I am not convinced that a once-off MechMate justifies the purchase of a specialised steel cutting saw. My money will first go to a high-quality, high-power mini angle grinder and a 20-pack of Pferd disks/wheels.

[Gerald D]

Another thing I quickly discovered about the steel saw......it litters/sprays little sharp steel chips. Which stick to your shoes and spread everywhere. Where they start rusting and make permanent stains. Even at my factory, I will be using it outside only. (on gravel or grass).

[Gerald D]

. . . . . and after 4 meters [12ft] of cutting, the Evolution died. Burn smell at end of motor. Will be repaired under warranty, but won't be used for further rail cutting.

[Gerald D]

Service company called and informed that unit has thermal overload protection. Tried saw again, and now it works.

[domino11]

Gerald,
Yes works for now, but for how long if it keeps tripping the thermal overload? :eek:

[Gerald D]

The thermal overload on this Evolution looks like an after-thought. Not mentioned in the manual. Odd reset button "patched" in bottom of handle casing. Did push it more today, taking it much easier, and managed to trip it once more. If this thing wants to burn, it had better burn this week while their service guys are geared up to take it back.

[jeffh]

Hmmmmmm.... That's not good news...

I did notice that there is a maximum recommended duty cycle for this saw
(which I did not see on any of the other saws) of 30 Minutes. Don't know
what that says about the quality but reading Gerald's report is not a resounding "Go buy it now" endorsement.

I do have other uses for a saw like this but... can't just go throwing a bunch
of money around on a whim.

OK Probably don't need to waste any more of people's time or bandwidth on this question. I'll just buck up and do it the "olde timey" way. (sweat, blood, tears, etc.)

Thanks everyone for the feedback!

[Gerald D]

Here (http://www.evolutionpowertools.co.uk/uk/evolution_raptor.html#) is a link to the Evolution site, they seem identical to the steelmax.

After comparing the two brands in terms of spare parts illustrations, they are two totally different designers/producers. Also likely that they are of different qualities.

Neither brand mentions thermal overload switch in the trouble-shooting sections of their manuals. Steelmax does show their switch above the trigger. Evolution's switch is not mentioned/shown anywhere, but in real life sits below the trigger.

The cynic in me asks why this style of steel cutting saw is not being offered by the "big boys"....(Metabo, Makita, Fein, Bosch, Milwaukee, etc.)?

[Alan_c]

Makita is offering both a "Skil" saw type and bench cut off saw, models 4131 (Hand held model 1100w) and LC1230 (Cutt off 1750w) as listed in their september 2007 power tool catalogue. Speak to our friends at Power Tool Repairs for feedback if they have had any sales on these items. see here (http://www.makita.co.za/Cut-OffMitreSaws.htm)

[Gerald D]

Wish I had know that before buying Evolution. Makita is a brand that I am very happy with. Their local support is also excellent. That Makita 4131 is a no-frills saw....just the way I like it! The darn Evolution spits out its laser batteries when the going gets rough - the Makita has no laser. The Evolution's tilt adjustment screw comes loose (has plastic head) - the Makita has no tilt adjustment.

[jeffh]

Milwaukee also has a Skil-type metal cutting saw that I've been eyeballing.

Milwaukee 6370-20 and 6370-21 (Not sure what the difference is, the specs look the same at a glance. Maybe just an update?)

Has an 8" blade with special teeth. Price is comparable (~$300 USD). I have
the same thoughts as you Gerald, I want a well known manufacturer that
I have had really good luck with in the past. Both Makita and Milwaukee
fit that bill.

We'll see. I have some time while my parts are being cut and bent so I'll stew
with this some more.

-

[Gerald D]

Milwaukee 6370-20 and 6370-21 (Not sure what the difference is, the specs look the same at a glance. Maybe just an update?)

The -21 model includes a carry case.

Reading the Makita & Milwaukee literature, it is now clear that the blades are not TCT, they are CerMet (CeramicMetal), and it is now beginning to make sense. . . .

[Gerald D]

Here is what I am going to experiment with, to even out the rails after cutting them down with a circular saw:

1786

Uses the top plate from the bevel grinder skate. White is the grind disk, green is the current top plate, yellow is a new plate (couldn't design current bottom plate to be multi-purpose).

Not designed for cutting the rail with a thin disk. Designed for a thick disk to even out the rail after it has been cut by whatever method.

[Lex]

Good idea! No reason why it wouldn't work. I am looking forward to hear the results.

[Gerald D]

Well, after a couple of mods, it does work. And it showed up how uneven the circular saw really was.

1856

1857

1858

- Had to add a spacer between the two plates because the nut holding the grind disk fouled the rail

- A fine screw ajustment was essential

As others have learnt, one does have to incline the disk so that only its tip does the heavy cutting . . . . the flat face can be used for polishing only.

[domino11]

Gerald,
Your new grinder arrangement looks really interesting. Do you think you will replace the current design with this new one? Which configuration do you prefer?

[smreish]

Heath,
I believe that this new accessory "flattens" the cut via a bottom reference bearing - something I wanted to do and LEKO and I spent hours discussing how to do cheaply and without having a mill.
This appears to be an easy and readily available part.

I see a new plate being added to the Mamba set soon.

[Gerald D]

Yes Heath, as Sean said, this is a rig for grinding a flat top after sawing the rail down to height.

I underestimated the amount of tilt to be allowed to make the disk cut nicely, so some re-design is needed before it gets into the drawing set.

[domino11]

Gerald,
So did you use your metal saw to do all your rails and then the new attachment to finish flatten to exact height? Or did you revert to the old method with a cutoff disc? Just interested. I know from your previous posts you seemed unsatisfied with the circular saws results.

[Gerald D]

My previous rails were made on a milling machine. The cutoff disc was a demo to show that method could work (and has worked for others since).

I got one of my staff members to finish cutting all the rails down with the circular saw. Then I ground one rail to height with the modified skate shown above. That was a pain because the circular saw left some divots that were quite deep and the whole length of the rail had to be removed to repair the divot.

Re-investigated sending the cut down rails to a knife-grinder (Roemers) and was quoted $18/meter to take out the divots and put on the bevels. That price was accepted and 3 days later the job was done.

[jhiggins7]

Yesterday I cut the steel into manageable pieces so I could carry them to my backyard where the workshop is. Good thing I got them off the driveway and inside. It's raining today.

3531
Here, I've got the first piece of angle ready to cut-down.

Here's the Mikita Metal Cutting Saw with the jig I made to guide the cut. A little about the saw. It's the Makita 4131 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002VB1WS). When the discussion about Metal Cutting Saws was raging on the forum and the discussion turned to the Mikita saw, I happened to see it on Amazon for $140 with free shipping. I bought it. I'm afraid it's about twice that now.

3528
3532

I made a wider base. The one it came with was only about 4" wide. I made two guides to attach to the base. The one on the right in the picture is fixed and held with small clamps at 28 mm from the blade. The one on the left has springs between the guide nearest the blade and the fixed piece furthest from the blade. The springs help hold the fixed guide on the right tight against the steel. Good thing I used the springs and not just two fixed guides. The steel width varied nearly 1/8th inch.

The cutting went very well. It only takes about 5 minutes to cut the larger pieces. I cut them at 28.5 mm to allow for clean-up. After cutting them down, I used the belt sander to smooth them. It only took a lite sanding to get them smooth. I only took off less than .25 mm and they were smooth.

3529

I'm sorry these pictures are a little fuzzy. I was trying to show the forum how the Metal Cutting Saw cut. I'm afraid I didn't do too well.

[Gerald D]

. . the Makita Metal Cutting Saw with the jig I made to guide the cut. . . . . I made a wider base. The one it came with was only about 4" wide. I made two guides to attach to the base. The one on the right in the picture is fixed and held with small clamps at 28 mm from the blade. The one on the left has springs between the guide nearest the blade and the fixed piece furthest from the blade. The springs help hold the fixed guide on the right tight against the steel. Good thing I used the springs and not just two fixed guides. The steel width varied nearly 1/8th inch..

You learnt a lot from us guinea pigs! I made the mistake of handing the saw and the rails (for 5 big tables) to one of my staff and told him to get on with it. At the end of the day he was wandering off the line. A spring loaded guide would have prevented that.

[jhiggins7]

To paraphrase Newton, (and this IS a loose paraphrasing), we who follow "stand on the shoulders of giants.":D

When I read about your experience, I started thinking about how to control the path of the saw. The jig is the result.

Regards,
John

[revved_up]

I am toying with the idea of importing some "Steelmax" blades to run on a modified "chopsaw". The correct speed will be observed. (If the Steelmax is so good, why isn't there a "chopsaw" version?).


I am thinking of buying this for my rails it is available on amazon.com for 110.00 for the tool and one blade but looking at the manufacter's website www.kwiktool.com they also have blades available for chopsaws. evoulution rage blades are also available for chopsaws in 10" size, I think that I read somewhere that the evoulution blades only fit their tools though because of the arbor size.