Dust Collector Foot

[Doug_Ford]

Gerald,

Can we start a new thread for the dust collector foot? If that's okay, I think there are some previous posts that should probably be moved into it.

Were those pictures, on the old forum, photos of your dust collector foot? I believe the text said that you posted them on behalf of someone else but the high quality workmanship looked like yours.

I'd like to design a foot that raises and lowers with the router and I want to make the top of the foot, around the router, out of lucite like the pictures you posted on the other forum. I was thinking about making the back part of the foot out of sheet metal or fiberglas. My question is whether sawdust collects on the lucite because of static electricity?

I was at Lowes home improvement store this morning and I found a sheet metal vent that transitioned from a six inch circle to a 4"X10" rectangle. It might be a good starting point.

After reading Bill Pentz's website about dust collectors, I think I'd like to use a 6 inch duct for my foot but it will be a tight fit. As I build mine, I'll take some photos so other builders can follow the process.

[Gerald D]

The original forum (http://www.mechmate.com/Forum/messages/2/1517.html) was started by ShopBotters showing pictures of things they had done. Lots was said about dust collection in general (http://www.mechmate.com/Forum/messages/2/1531.html). And there were many pictures of dust feet (http://www.mechmate.com/Forum/messages/2/55.html). Therefore I am not sure of exactly which pictures you are referring to - a quick scan didn't show any of my attempts in there. But that doesn't really matter. Let's look at a couple of points:

Hose diameter: 6" sounds like a total overkill. We are using 4". The big pro routers also don't seem to use anything bigger than 5", and they often use multiple smaller hoses. Bear in mind that you can increase the diameter on the way to the "fan", or just after the hose leaves the table. A big hose forces you to build a big foot - a big foot is useless at the edges of a board. The smaller the area inside the brush, the better it picks up near the cutter.

Material: I would avoid lucite/perspex/acrylic because it is brittle and cracks easily. I don't see the need for clear material - if one wants to see the cutter then the foot (or part of it) must be easily removed. Dust collects everywhere, not just on the plastic parts.

[Gerald D]

Also consider carefully if you want the dust foot to ride on the Z-slide or the Y-car. Suggest you find the brush first, and then see if your brush can accommodate a range of heights easily. What happens if you need to do 4 passes to get through 1.5" thick counter tops? What happens when you change cutter sizes - the small ones are short, the big ones are long?

[Doug_Ford]

I don't know if you've had a chance to look at Bill Pentz's website about dust collection but he seems to know what he's talking about. Like you, he's an engineer and he's not trying to sell anything - just sharing information. Yes, he has licensed someone to produce dust collectors to his specs but he only links to that site and at the same time, he provides detailed plans for building your own if you don't chose to buy one.

There is lots and lots of data you have to wade through on the site but he claims that a 6 inch duct is optimum for moving the particularly harmful fine dust. If you go larger or smaller, you need a much bigger blower motor to move the air. Also, he claims that at the speeds we're moving the air, it is practically noncompressible so if you neck down the duct work, the air flow slows down to the point that the fine dust isn't captured effectively.

Thanks for the advice on finding the brush first. I had assumed that I could use a semi-flexible brush that would bend enough to compensate for height differences. Maybe I can use two layers of brushes with the outer brush being longer. Since the longer brush will probably be more flexible, the shorter inner brush will help support it and keep it from being sucked into the foot area thereby decreasing its effectiveness.

Lots to think about.

[Marc Shlaes]

McMaster sells lots of different configurations of brush. They refer to it as "strip brush".

[Doug_Ford]

Thanks Marc.

[Gerald D]

Doug, I have often looked at that Bill Pentz site (http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm), and it is packed with good info. However, it does not really address a moving pickup foot with brushes restricting it. We are already sitting with a restriction caused by the brushes and from there we can expand to a bigger pipe. Hoods (http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/Ducting.cfm#DustHoods)

Also have a look at availability of anti-static hoses. ($15-$18 per foot)

[Greg J]

There is a video on the Clear Vue site that shows their system on a cnc router. Their "pickup foot" does not utilize brushes. Granted, they may have removed them for the video, or, does not require them because that particular cutting operation has a fixed depth. Just speculating.

It looks like a 4 inch [101.6 mm] diameter hose connected to the foot. Probably transitions to 6 inch [152.4 mm].

If you check out the "New Yankee Workshop" web site, Norm uses a cyclone system (I think that's what it is :confused:). Big diameter (6 inch ?) at the fan transiting to smaller at the tool.

[Marc Shlaes]

Copied from this thread (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=329):

I just had the pleasure and priviledge of spending the last 10 days in J.R.'s shop where we learned to use his machine together. I also met Gene. What a wonderful community this MM group is.

For this adventure, I handled mostly the CAD and the CAM and J.R. handled Mach.

This was the first time I ever saw a CNC machine (of any kind) in action and it was extremely cool!

Gerald, consider this an electronic handshake / high five / pat on the back!

Together, J.R. and I engineered a dust collector setup that works beautifully. We also cut a combination vacuum plenum and spoilboard. I took some pictures and will post them as soon as I prepare them.

Doug / Sean (and others), I believe that our dust collector is very clean looking and probably easier to fabricate than with sheetmetal. We fashioned it out of .75in (19mm) expanded PVC and some 4in (100mm) PVC drain tube. The dust containment fingers around the bottom were fashioned from some heavy clear vinyl. I can post the dxf's and the Sheetcam jobs for the plenum and the dust foot if you are interested.

J.R.,

Thanks tons for that legendary southern hospitality. I learned a ton!

Marc

[Marc Shlaes]

Marc Shlaes here! Here is a photo and description of the dust collection setup that JR and I fashioned for his machine.

This was Version one of the dust foot. Unfortunately, I don't seem to have a photo of Version 2. The changes were subtle but significant. I will describe them below.

This photo shows the foot, the tube and the upper clamp holding the tube. The upper clamp is attached to an angle iron bolted to the back of the z-slide. Both the foot and the clamp were cut from expanded PVC.

Changes between Version 1 and Version 2:

JR correctly believed that the force of the fan in the router was kicking dust out the sides of the foot. Therefore, we added some bushings that spaced the foot down 3/8ths of an inch and made the front hole just large enough for the router collet and thereby sealing off most of the router's air. The change was dramatic. The efficiency probably doubled. Good call J.R. We took the router's temperature with an IR thermometer after the change to ensure that the router was getting enough air. No problem. The other significant change was the type of vinyl used in the apron. We switched from a thinner stiffer plastic to a thicker softer vinyl. We cut the apron from a piece of vinyl that is used to make those overlapping walk-thru curtains for large freezers. We simply stopped by a refrigeration contractor to obtain one vertical replacement panel. This material was perfect. The Version 1 plastic was securely attached using double stick tape. This did not work with the Version 2 vinyl. It didn't stick. Therefore, we evenly spaced some screws and problem solved. (BTW: Expanded PVC holds screws really well.) I wished I had taken some pictures after Version 2 was put into service. There really was NO dust. Even when the apron went off the edge of the wood, only tiny, tiny amounts of dust escaped. You can see in the Version 1 phote attached that it didn't work as well.

Would anyone want the dxf's for the foot and the clamp?

[sailfl]

Team Effort

Way to go guys. That is what I consider this forum. Excellent design and plans and lots of useful information. You guys are going to make it easy to build mine.

[cncb]

Cool dc foot. Are you running pvc for the rest of the piping or metal? JR can we expect a video or two anytime soon :)

[Marc Shlaes]

We ran 18 feet of flexible tubing to the hard pipe, which in J.R.'s shop is PVC. The flexible tubing came from Woodworker's Supply. It is the most flexible tubing I have ever seen. I bought some because it is literally twice as flexible as the tubing in my shop. Great stuff! J.R. quickly fashioned some temporary cars out of shower curtain hangers as you can see. The permanent cars will come over time.

Also attached is a picture of the 4 zone combination vacuum plenum / spoilboard we cut. It is now flipped over and anchored. Just for fun we attached his shop vac to one of the zones and we couldn't believe how well it worked. There are more things yet to do to increase it's efficiency such as sealing the edges. If it works this well now it should really work well when it is done!

[smreish]

Aren't you guys just busy beavers! Nice work. I have step up a 5 zone table very similar to yours. Great minds think alike. I would love the dxfs for the foot. I have ample PVC sheet in stock to make that dc foot.
Thanks for all the great photos. They are invaluable.

[Greg J]

Marc and J.R.,

OUTSTANDING !!!! The best designs come from multiple minds.

I also, would like the dxf's files of the DC foot.

My wife has been wanting me to take her somewhere.

J.R., can we come and visit your MM and shop. She's a woodworker and crafts person at heart and would actually think that's pretty cool.

[Doug_Ford]

That looks great guys. Congratulations. I'm still trying to fit a 6" foot into my car. I made some progress today but I won't be ready to post pictures for at least a week or two minimum.

[smreish]

Ahhh come on Doug, be brave, post a progress picture! :D

...waiting for prox switches and relays to arrive.......always waiting on the UPS truck.

[Marc Shlaes]

Doug,

The four inch sucked plenty well and it might be a little simpler. Also, J.R. reminded me that the new vinyl seems to have an anti-static coating. That makes sense. You wouldn't want to get zapped every time you walk thru. You can tell that dust stuck to the V1 apron but none stuck to V2.

If you get yours from a refrigeration contractor, chances are it will be the same.

Tomorrow, I'll get some text (explanation) on the dxf and and post it.

Oh, by the way, Woodworkers Supply sells two grades of 4in. flexible tubing. As you might guess, the really flexible stuff is the most expensive.

[Gerald D]

Here (http://www.mechmate.com/Forum/messages/2/1531.html) is a section on the old forum that might be useful to you.

Two main routes can be taken; Either the foot rides with the Z-slide, like you have done, or the foot is attached to the Y car and the cutter plunges in and out of the foot. We took the latter route.

Biggest hassle I see with your set-up is the permanent obstruction of the cutter for inspection, changing, and z-zero calibration. The quickest solution to all of those is to split the foot so that the front is removable.

Another old discussion on splitting the foot at the ShopBot forum here (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/messages/28/13523.html).

[Marc Shlaes]

Gerald,

All good points. Here are my thoughts on each:

Bit Changing: I recommended to J.R. that he equip his Porter Cable router with the Magnate Eliminator Chuck. I have used those on my routers for years and have never had the slightest problem with them. Some people love them and some hate them. I am in the "love 'em" camp. This makes bit changing very, very simple.
http://magnate.net/index.cfm?event=showProductGroup&theID=198

Inspection: We really didn't have a problem seeing the bit when we jogged the Y car down to the end.

Z Zero (and Part X,Y zero): J.R. intends to do the laser and touch plate concept that Greg (Greolt) posted.

I do, however, like the concept where the front is removable. Maybe there could be a V3 in the works.

[Marc Shlaes]

P.S. I read those posts in the old forum about 20 times. Our inspiration was a combination of those posts. As Newton said... "On the shoulders of giants, I can see for miles."

[Gerald D]

The mention of the router blast deflector is probably the most important of the whole lot. At very minimum we should be fitting blast deflectors to the routers, even before we think of the collection foot. The deflector makes a dramatic difference to the amount of dust in the shop and in your lungs.

[Marc Shlaes]

Agreed! J.R. instinctively made that call. J.R. said that he would post a picture of V2 so everyone could see the difference.

[Greg J]

Marc / J.R.,

What kind of volume does J.R.'s dust collection system move? If you don't know, what size motor is driving it?

[Marc Shlaes]

J.R. will have to answer that. I dunno.

As promised. Here are the DXF's for the foot and the upper clamp.

Gerald, JR and I were wondering if it makes sense to create a DXF library for contributions such as these. Anyone that was willing could add designs for MM componentry as well as other designs such as furniture...

Just our thoughts.

[J.R. Hatcher]

Greg is she a good cook??? Just kidding. You and your wife would be welcome anytime.

Marc and J.R.,

OUTSTANDING !!!! The best designs come from multiple minds.

I also, would like the dxf's files of the DC foot.

My wife has been wanting me to take her somewhere.

J.R., can we come and visit your MM and shop. She's a woodworker and crafts person at heart and would actually think that's pretty cool.

[domino11]

JR,
Is this the start of Camp Mechmate? We could all come over and you could show us your machine. :) I can cook. :)

[J.R. Hatcher]

Greg the dust collector was the largest thing Grizzly had 7or 8 years ago, it's the 4 clothe bag type.
Marc / J.R.,

What kind of volume does J.R.'s dust collection system move? If you don't know, what size motor is driving it?

[Doug_Ford]

Here is my attempt at fabricating a DC foot for a 6" duct system using sheetmetal. It isn't complete yet but I thought I would post pictures as I go along in case somebody has a suggestion.

The vertical tube is a temporary one that I will replace later once I receive my flex tube and know the exact size it should be. This week, I plan to add a 1/2"X1/8" steel rim around the bottom and a curtain like J.R. and Marc. Thanks for the idea guys. I also haven't added the mastic to seal the joints. Finally, I need to repaint the top bracket. I left a 1/4" gap between the bottom of the router and top of the foot. The spacer shown on top of the foot was a 2" PVC coupling that I cut down on my lathe. The diameter was almost a perfect fit.

[J.R. Hatcher]

Heath that sounds like something we could work out. What sort of dishes can you cook?
JR,
Is this the start of Camp Mechmate? We could all come over and you could show us your machine. :) I can cook. :)

[domino11]

JR,
I can cook just about anything. :) My favorite stuff usually goes on the BBQ. Your machine is really coming along. I love the dust foot. Post some more pictures of stuff you have cut when you get a chance.

[Gerald D]

For you guys making the dust foot ride with the z-slide; Do you realise the schlep of adjusting the height? Let's say you are cutting a sign and need a 1/2" cutter for the hogging and a 1/4" for the detail. Difference in cutter lengths is 1" or more. After hogging, the dust foot must be raised for the shorter cutter.

Or, you are making 4 passes with a 1/2" cutter in thick material to get 2" deep at the end - at least 2 foot height changes.

Those flexible PVC skirts can take little variance in foot height. The brush skirts are not much better - the bush bristles get sucked up the pipe after tangling around the cutter.

I am not meaning to sound negative about all of this - it is just that nobody is ever happy with every aspect of the design of a dust foot. I am trying to play devil's advocate and make folk aware of the issues that may still arise.

[Marc Shlaes]

We did run into exactly that situation when we switched between a short little V bit for engraving text and a long spiral downcut spiral for cutting the part outline. The soft vinyl that we used seemed to take it all in stride and offer a good compromise. As we all get more experience and share ideas, the perfect combination will bubble to the top.

[revved_up]

heres an idea in little different direction, what about mounting ductwork at the side of the bed for the vacuum and running low compressed air perhaps from a fishtank pump through the cable chain down the z and angled to blow the chips toward the ductwork? It atleast would'nt interfere with the bit changes and depth of cuts.

[Gerald D]

This could be useful:

http://www.blastgateco.com/index.php