WOW These parts are big!! Toledo, OH

[Father-of-Ash]

Hello everyone,

Like almost everyone else here, I've been here behind the scenes for 3-4 years and finally found a reason to build One! :D

I'm an auto mechanic for the past 15 years as well as doing custom computer builds and repairs. I was frequent on the forums when I first found out about mechmate, but haven't been around for over a year now. Much reviving to do.
I plan to do a 6' x 12' table mainly for cutting aluminum plate, which is my main concern. I know there are a few people who cut aluminum but I'm not sure how much chatter they have in the finished product (mostly worried about circles/ovals). I know mechmate is designed for wood but i would prefer to complement it rather then buy a different machine(if that's possible). I have a few ideas on how I think I can minimize chatter please let me know how crazy / stupid they sound.
1. Add weight to the gantry, fill tubes with cement?
2.use thicker plate for the y-car(which means bending points will have to be adjusted?)
3. And widen the y-car for an added z-slide opposite of the original z-slide ( all other gantry plates will have to be widened as well)

I have more uneducated questions that I will ask in appropriate locations.
In the mean time, more reading.

All your inputs and criticism will be greatly appreciated.

Gerald! Thank you for this fantastic machine and everyone supporting it.

[smreish]

Welcome to the group.

1) Mass added to the machine will change dramatically the motor size needed to drive the axis'
2) The y-car is very rigid - not sure why this is a consideration.
3) y-car already fits 2 z slides. I have done it twice. But, if you want dust collection - you will have to route that outside the y-car to suite your needs.

....NOTE: I am not an engineer and can only tell you I have cut plenty of .120/.187/.250 alum plate on the MM with no issues with the correct lubrication, cutting bit and feed rate without any undue modifications to the machine.

Build particulars.
10" channel sides
standard MM railing and Vee wheels
7.2 OM geared motors
20T pinions for Alum / switched to 35T for wood and faster JOGS.

[Father-of-Ash]

Thank you Sean,

I knew i should of caught up on reading.:o
Hopefully by tonight I'll be able to read through your build once again.

I haven't purchased the plans yet, I would like to get a rough estimate on cost first.

can anyone tell me what the biggest disadvantages are in electronics, the Chinese 4 axis 2M542 with bob for $180 vs. the Gecko 203v and PMDX setups?

[servant74]

From what I have seen, it can cost between $2000 and $8000 USD in the USA, depending on your 'scrounging' abilities and luck finding used steel and equipment.

The metal and laser cut parts are about half, and the electronics/steppers/electronics enclosures/etc are the other half.

Software can go from free/open source to High$ cad/cam packages hooked onto high$ proprietary software that may require a 'good computer' to make it run.

'Typical' costs if you are careful and shop around are about $5K USD. This doesn't include your time and possibly some tools you may not have.

Some folks find steel suppliers that can cut the metal and punch the right holes but modifying any of the plans to get them to do that is up to you. That is a trade off of time vs paying for the service supplied. ... Like I said, there are tradeoffs.

Still, the Mechmate is IMHO a better than many other CNC rigs for $20K or more. (Persionally, I compare to Shopbottools.com but that is just me.)

[Father-of-Ash]

Thanks Jack,

I decided to already purchase the plans so I can get a better idea of what I am doing.
I'll eventually put up my shopping list. I just got done printing out all the PDF files and organized them in a binder to look through at work(on my free time);)

Does metalhead Mike email the rest of the files? All I had for download were 5 PDF files and a frequency calculator.

btw...shopbots look like MM's little sister.

[servant74]

The first MM was a old version of Shopbot with 'mods'. Ever since (If I remember right) it has been it's own design ... Thanks to GearldD!) A few changes have happened, but not a lot showing to me the solid design it is. It is not all things to all people, but the design is flexible enough for many uses and personalization.

Pretty much the plans are what they are. I got mine back when they were free for registering, but Mike change that when GeraldD 'retired' and sold the site. ... Not good or bad, but that is how it is and what Mike is asking is very little for what you get, including the support of this community!

This group does address lots of issues for all kinds of CNC, but we try to focus on MM and related issues. For non-MMers, there are other good forums online. (Since you purchased the plans, sorry, you are stuck here! :-) ). I have seen some MM issues brought up elsewhere, but this forum does a great job.

Disclaimer: I have not built one 'yet', but would like to eventually. I may build another smaller machine that is not as capable, but a MM is still my long term desire. As I get older, it might not be reasonable though, but it doesn't keep me from dreaming.

[Father-of-Ash]

btw...shopbots look like MM's little sister.

What i meant by that is that shopbots look very whimpy when compared to MM, especially for that price tag.

Can anyone tell me about the .dxf files? The purchased plans only have the PDF files. I have 2 local shops I'd like to get quotes from for the cutting and bending.

Thanks.

[servant74]

Shopbot is a forefather of MM. MM is the stronger child of the ShopBot. The current SB is the weaker sibling of the current MM. The genetics changed in the SB as the design changed over time.

As far as I know there are no DXF files in the 'package'. The MM design came about before quite so much CAD was prevalent, so no DXF files that I know of. There might be a few that builders made for their own purpose, but not of the entire machine.

Suggestion: Copy/reprint the relevant pages for the potential vendors. ALWAYS keep a copy of the files and a printed copy available for reference. When building, you should have another copy in your shop to get dirty and build from.

[Father-of-Ash]

Thanks for the suggestion Jack.

As for the dxf files, I was referring to the files for the parts that need to be laser/plasma/ water jet.

[rcboats1]

Save yourself the trouble and get them from Mike.

http://www.cvsupply.com/

Look under products.

[smreish]

I just visited the page at mikes under products and saw the Rev 1.o of the grinding skate in my shop after the first mock-up before Gerald put the skate into the drawing package. WOW - that brings back memories. If you look really close, I didn't have a brake in the shop to bend the 3/16 steel plate, thus had to weld up the angle bracket on the skate.

....and all those fasteners - Goldberg would be proud!

[Gerald D]

I wouldn't say this is my best ever design, but the hours put into it to make it "buildable" in all corners of the world seem to have paid off. :)

It is a bunch of common materials, spiced a little by the use of CNC laser cut parts. SB machines have to be lighter because they have to ship them out as kits at an economical price, and they have to be more expensive because they have labour to pay. When you are given guide prices for MM builds, that excludes shipping and labour.

The other ingredient in the MM recipe is this Forum that serves as the instruction manual. It assumes the potential builder has done his homework and has a basic understanding of what he is getting into.

[Father-of-Ash]

I knew this was going to happen...

The more I read, the harder it is for me to settle on an idea from any perspective of the build.;)

I am going to try and draw out the table in cad:eek:

Amazing how much I have forgotten in 1.5 years, I wish I wrote notes.

Gerald I understand and want to thank you for you time and commitment in making these plans and this community.:)
......I'm still in the homework process, but hopefully by the end of next weekend I will have settled on most of I would like to do as far as table design and build process goes.

Bilal.

[MetalHead]

Welcome aboard . As far as the build, get your size (6x12 I think you said) then build the machine direct drive to get it going . Use a basic control box design and spend your money up front on a good spindle setup. You can upgrade off of that platform very easily . Don't over analyze , the design is very flexible thanks to G's design and the forums input.

[Fox]

I wouldn't say this is my best ever design, but the hours put into it to make it "buildable" in all corners of the world seem to have paid off.

It would be interesting to hear what you would have done different in hindsight (always easier looking back) ? Or is that just the perfectionist in you speaking :D?

[Gerald D]

I prefer not to look back at it . . . I have enough on my plate to look forward to :)

[Father-of-Ash]

Thanks for the input Mike.

Plans have moved forward much faster then expected, I plan to make most of the electronics purchase by next week and get started with the recommended kitchen table.
Naturally I have a few questions....ok a lot of questions but its already 2am here so I'll quick for now.

I definitely would like to use the belt reduction and not sure if 7:1 is overkill? I do like a little bit of overkill only when i think it might help in the future. But if 4:1 does a great finish job on aluminum plate then i would go with the ratio with the faster jogs.

I saw a lot of people raising the question of tooth contact in the belt reduction units but I couldn't find anyone having issue with it. is there a preference in whose design to go with?

The stepper I picked out is the PK299-F4.5A for the X & Y, and the PK296-F4.5A for the Z. How does Motion king compare in quality and duration? 34H2A5850 & 34H2A2827 respectively. still need to calculate a power supply for the system.

Found this 4kw Chinese spindle and VFD, there are slight differences in all These Chinese spindles and I'm not sure how many different manufacturers there are. Can anyone point me to a reputable ebay seller or other recommended sources? also not sure what a good price is for such spindles.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251392789420?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Would anyone recommend the double Z-slide for added stability? I would be using the extended Z-slide according to plans. I would like to try cutting aluminum 3D parts...

I apologize for annoying questions, I am one who is reaping the benefits of this forum. Hopefully my project will bring something new to contribute to it......although doubtful.

Thank you,
Bilal.

[KenC]

7:1? no problem, just build it the way you like it.
Other places which you can over kill are, triple your steel weight, 25hp spindle, 50hp vane type vacuum pump, i7 16GB Ram, 32"monitor..... :D

[smreish]

Double z for added stability? The y-car is designed to have the spindle closer to the drive motor on the y car for this reason. Save the space for a dedicated tool - like air drill for pointing or dust/cooling

[Fox]

I prefer not to look back at it . . . I have enough on my plate to look forward to all good, I can understand you do not want to come out of retirement by posting things and people starting to ask questions about it. Although I did made some customisations to the MM (mostly Z related), I am still very impressed with the good job you did.

[Father-of-Ash]

Hello again,

Sean I wont mention the stability of the Z-slide again I promise!:)

I do want to ask about the power supply i have picked. AN-10435 - 1000VA 35V

PK299-f4.5 x3 Bipolar parallel
6.3a
2.5 inductance
1.9 VDC

PK296-F4.5 x1
6.3a
1.5 inductance
1.4 VDC

Will the PK296 at the Z be ok if i use a current load resistor at the gecko as Gerald suggested a while back or is there a different maybe better way now? How do I deal or eliminate the over voltage issue since I'm using a 50vdc supply? I think max is 39VDC for that motor.

At first I did the calculations backwards and almost missed it.(the DC output is 1.414 times greater then the AC input correct? or did i just double confuse myself?)
Do I have room for two more motors down the road using this supply?

Sean, I have a silly question about the Neutrik XLR connectors you recommend. Do any of the male plugs fit the female? they seem to be class specific and i cant find the male plug for NC4FD-LX-B. The EMC class only comes in 3-pin which is recommended when viewing the 4-pin female.

Again I apologize for so many questions, just need to get it worked out in my head and hopefully only have a one time purchase of everything I need.

Bilal

[KenC]

50V won't burn the motor... if it doesn't burn your driver 1st.

[Father-of-Ash]

Ken, so is that supply a good pick? are you saying the driver would burn up before it hurts the motor?

I figured out that connector issue...:o...silly me.

[KenC]

I would not pick this when I have all the choices in the world. but if that is what I have in the junk pile, I would try it out. won't harm a thing IMHO. If it doesn't work out, then I'll use a "more suitable" one.

[Father-of-Ash]

How much lower should i go to suit the pk296?
I used the gecko calculations and read alot from what Mike "Richards" and Gerald said, but still not sure how to pick a suitable supply with a different motor in the mix. Is 40 VDC too low for the pk299's? so maybe 45 VDC is ok?:confused:

Bilal

[KenC]

the calculated figure is a guide, not something you must follow to the dot...
IMHO, get the calculated figure & use the nearest voltage you have. btw, nobody really want to use lower voltage, acceleration will go lower with it.

[MetalHead]

Ok,

Your over thinking your setup. Go read Rusty Nuts thread. http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3426

You should use the same motors across the machine for simplicity.

PK299-4.5A (wired 4 wire) (or similar)
PS-6n50
PMDX-126
PMDX-HDR26Ribbon-18
PMDX-134 (or 2 PMDX-133 if you want 5th axis growth but most don't do it even if they add for the growth)
Gecko G203V Digital Step Drive (4 at least, 5 if wanting growth)
Wire
Basic Control Box (Box, Back Plate, DIN rail, Contactor, switches, etc)
Heat Sink
External safety control boxes (Start, Stop E-Stop)
Wire 4 (164 feet) and 8 core (82 feet). Add footage if not mounting box on machine (But most mount box on machine.)

Now as far as simple wiring. LESS CONNECTORS IS BETTER.

You can use the DIN rail connectors as your termination points and compression grommets as your through box seals. Wire runs straight from the motor (Hard Wired) to the DIN rail connectors.

PMDX-126 uses 110V AC Power, so no secondary 5v/12v DC is needed. Simple hook up.
http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3561

I also have a video I can send you ($20.00) that explains the contactor wiring.

I can supply all of these parts as one order.

[Father-of-Ash]

Thanks Mike, I will PM you for some pricing.

[rcboats1]

You can't go wrong with Mike's kits. I have his video on wiring the contactor and if you are not strong on the electrical side this will help you.

[pblackburn]

Bilal,
The calculations are how to figure out the voltage. I have a PK299-F4.5A wired parallel and use 56VDC. There is a little bit of compensation that is required for torque to be maintained. That is why a higher voltage. I did have a calculator uploaded in the power supply section of the forum. How you plan on wiring the motors will make a change on the supply needed.

[Father-of-Ash]

Thanks Kelly,

Pete, I did use your calculator and got the same number(also parallel connection). I was just concerned about the pk296 because it requires less voltage, just wasn't sure if the calculator compensates for that. So feeding my geckos 56VDC is optimum? just wanted to confirm that. And if not, then would a step down regulator work or would that introduce too much noise?

[pblackburn]

You only need a different current limiting resistor if you are concerned with the heat of the stepper. I have a conglomeration of steppers on mine so I can give you a rough idea. I have the three steppers from the PK296A2A-SG7.2, one PK296-F4.5A and one PK299-F4.5A. I had to lower the values on the A2A resistors. If you are concerned, get the 48 or 50V. It will work well also. I started out with one in the 30 to 40 volt range. With the changes, I needed to upsize but I should have gone with a larger power supply in the beginning.

[Father-of-Ash]

Thank you Pete.

[Father-of-Ash]

I have most of the electronics ordered, just need to pick out all the din rail items and i should be able to start on kitchen table soon.

Is "Metalhead" Mike on vacation? its been almost a week haven't heard back from him yet. maybe my 2 PM's didn't go through, my "sent" folder is empty.:confused:

[MetalHead]

I am back - sent you a PM

[Father-of-Ash]

Hello all,

Some components have come in. I know the size of some of them will make you laugh. The capacitors, I had no idea were that big, never paid attention to dimensions, and I think I was falling asleep when I ordered the heat-sink, 2" too wide and a Gecko too long. Used push-button stations are more massive then my assumptions as well.

[Father-of-Ash]

edit: trying to get pic to attach.

[Father-of-Ash]

Hello all,

I have a simple question about the on/off switch for the front panel. I think I ordered the wrong one, part# GCX1152 (http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Search/Search?searchquery=GCX1152&cmd=Search&fctype=adc.falcon.search.SearchFormCtrl&TxnNumber=-1)from automationdirect.com. the contactor blocks dont stay engaged when pushed, so would I need some type of relay setup to make this work or just get a different switch?

I almost have all the electrical components and will soon post some pics of progress.

[MetalHead]

You need one that is not "momentary" - G is correct in the next post as usual :) - I miss read the specs when I reviewed that one !!

[Gerald D]

Bilal, your contactor block should have an Aux. set of smaller contacts to the one side. It is very normal practice, for safety reasons, to wire your switch with the aux. contacts to "latch" the contactor. Then, if mains power fails, and is reconnected, your contactor will stay off.

If you did use non-momentary switches, you would have a dangerous system.

[Father-of-Ash]

Thanks Gerald, the simplicity of it makes perfect sense now.

Here (http://mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3561)'s more info for other newcomers.

Haven't had much time to look through PMDX diagrams, just wanted to ask if the start/stop buttons can use the same ground? only 3 wires can be used?
I would like to order my cable now so I can use some in the box, have many people used the cable calculator? is it reliable? cant find the link for it ATM.

[Gerald D]

There is a discussion following, and diagrams from here:
http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3394&postcount=55

[Fox]

I did my own cable calculating..
Walking along the machine.. max extended at every axle (can also be done in cad) and adding half a meter with every corner, and one at the control box (mounted at the machine) then I rounded the numbers up... and it was spot on.. Had a meter spare.

Mind you... walking along the machine while thinking of cable doubling trough e chains.

[darren salyer]

You could always run a string for length too.

[Father-of-Ash]

Thanks guys,

I don't have any part of the machine together yet, I'll just wait till it is together to be on the safe side.

On another thought, does anyone know if you can go bigger then 4kw spindle for 230v single phase america? or if there is anything bigger even available in 230v? and is 10awg shielded suitable?

[pblackburn]

For the VFD load output yes but not for the supply if using only single phase. I only know of Hitachi that makes a 3 phase VFD capable of running a 4 kW that may be wired single phase even though it is listed at 3 phase. Info is on cnczone.

[KenC]

4000W/230V= 17.4Amp.

You sure you want to run higher than 4kW on single phase?

[alan254]

I am running a 5HP Colombo spindle on single phase but you need to double the size of the VFD I am running 10 HP Lenze drive. All running fine

Al

[Father-of-Ash]

Pete, this (http://www.ebay.com/itm/251392789420?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)is what I originally had in mind. In the end, if budget allows I will shoot for the Hitachi XJ200-075LF.

No, I guess not Ken, Thanks.

Al, what model is your Colombo? and what did you pay for the Lenz, if you don't mind me asking?

Another E-stop question, is it recommended to run it as a separate 2-core shielded cable or can it be part of a 7-core shielded? my e-stops will be 220v since my contactor coil is 220v. I think I will be running 2, 7-core cables other then the 4-core motor cables.

I plan to be using an air drill as well, can you guys give me some pointers as to what kind I should look for. there are a few Desoutters and Atlas copcos on ebay, going to need holes in aluminum, acrylic and some steel sheet.
And how much longer should the X rails be for the second cutter?\

Thanks again guys,
Bilal

[pblackburn]

I would advise against high voltage coils. Besides the higher risk of electrocution and arc flash potential (if not properly done) while troubleshooting, insurance companies don't like high voltage coils here in the States.

[KenC]

If it is possible, don't use magnetic contactor. I changed to SSR which has zero-crossing ability, i.e. it will only turn on AC is at 0V of the sinewave and only switch off when the cycle is complete. this will reduce/eliminate the EMI burst from the transformer. with a 24V latching circuit, you can still salvage your existing on/off push button, light and the E-stop circuit.

[Father-of-Ash]

Noted Pete.

Thanks Ken, is there a diagram of that in the forums?

I just found some Helukabel JZ-602-CY #82982 for $.44 per foot. is this good enough for the motors or should I look for double shielding? seems like an excellent price, no?

[KenC]

I derive my circuit from similar circuit.
http://www.the12volt.com/installbay/uploads/E33_Latching_Relay_2.gif

[alan254]

Hi Bilal, my spindle is a RS90 CPE25 240Volt that I bought new from Blurry Customs, and the VFD Lenze MC1000 I picked up at an auction for $100. just lucky no one there knew what it was .

Al

[Father-of-Ash]

Ken, Thanks for that diagram. I will implement what you have done. for now just gonna get the controls running.

Ok Al, Thanks. lucky indeed.

What do you all think of that cable? would you use it?

[MetalHead]

Call Helukabel and ask if that cable is CNC rated. I always find if your cheap in the wire department it usually comes back to haunt you at some point sooner than later !!!

[james burrus]

Good to see you getting started

[Father-of-Ash]

Thanks James,

I should hopefully be posting some progress soon.

[Father-of-Ash]

Hi All,

I just had a couple quick questions to get in while I am at work. As to the bipolar parallel wiring. since its parallel does it matter where either A phase pairs go on the driver? /A or A? same for the B phase?

since I am using the pmdx-133 boards, do we use the grounding pin on the board for the shield drain or just put it to the aluminum plate? or both?

The table is going to be a fairly big table, 7x14', would it be recommended to go with 16awg for the motors instead of the typical 18awg?

I plan to have motors turning this weekend...I hope ...I think Ive already said that once:o, pictures to come.

[KenC]

on the phase,
It does, follow the manufacturer's specsheet and you should be ok.
if you don't have one, its impossible to tell the correct pole without expensive equipment or trial and error. the good news is you won't fry anything if the poles are connected wrongly.

[Father-of-Ash]

Thanks Ken,
The only thing I am able to find is the pairs that go to the "A" phase and "B" phase but nothing to differentiate between the two A poles and B poles.
I guess if it doesn't hurt anything then ill just switch it on and see what happens.

Bilal

[Father-of-Ash]

Turns out those specifics aren't anywhere on the OM site, so I contacted them:
Black is your A and Green is your /A
Red is your B and Blue is your /B

Question on Dual Z slides: Do I add the distance between the two cutters to the 500mm of the gantry measurement?

Hoping to have metal ordered by the end of the week.
I'll put some pics up later tonight to show you where I'm at.

Thanks!
Bilal

[Father-of-Ash]

I've been trying to configure mach so I can at least hear some motors turn but not having much luck, I followed the config video at machsupport.com.
Also the test button on the PMDX-126 doesn't do anything although I can hear one motor do something. I went back and verified my wiring is according to the OM diagram & info from them.
Some pics of where I'm at along with some pretties from Mike, Thanks for the goody bag Mike!

[pblackburn]

Most times it is wiring and/or the ports and pins setup. I have a 126 with a 134 with 203 vampire drives and oriental motors. I may be able to assist you through it.

[Father-of-Ash]

Pete Thank you:)
I haven't been back at it since last post, I'm going to go through it once more tonight, then maybe I'll pursue to annoy you:o

[Father-of-Ash]

Ok I'm still stumped...
The process seems very straight forward, not sure why I'm having such a hard time getting motors to turn. I'll more then likely be face palming myself once its figured out.
attached is a pic of the last config. of pins I used to no avail.
everything works fine in test mode off the BoB.

[pblackburn]

Is this through parallel port?

[Father-of-Ash]

Wow that was quick:)

Yes it is.

[pblackburn]

Is your parallel port set to epp or ecp? Is the correct address in Mach? Are you using IEEE 1284 cable?

[pblackburn]

Is your estop circuit correct? Do you require charge pump mode active?

[lonestaral]

When you press the red 'Reset' button on the Mach 3 screen,
does it stop blinking ?

[Father-of-Ash]

Sorry it took me so long to get back with you, had to put my son back asleep.

under device manager it says ECP, yes address is correct 0378, part number on cable does come up as a 1284...and it says "data transfer cable" on it.

[Father-of-Ash]

I tried charge pump on and off.
Yes Al it does stop blinking.
And the E-stop is still factory jumpered.

[lonestaral]

Have you another printer cable that you can try ?

I had a fault on a new cable this week, a loose pin.

[pblackburn]

What are your jumper settings? One cable in normal mode or extended mode or two parallel cables? There is a check in Port#1 Enabled in the Ports and Pins correct?

[Father-of-Ash]

That's what I'm thinking, this is an old cable as well...I'll pick one up tomorrow.
Yes Pete, normal mode, 1 port checked.

[Father-of-Ash]

I haven't had a chance to pick a cable up yet, but should be able to tonight.
In the mean time I'm going to order a premium 20 footer, is there any issues in running long parallel port cable?
I also am going to put a decent computer together to handle cad/cam software along with machine control. I just have a slight concern using an APU...does Mach3 have any issues using an APU? I'm doubting it but thought I'd ask to make sure.

Thanks,
Bilal

[pblackburn]

I have 2-20 foot cables for port 1 and port 2 of my 126 board.

Edit: the cables are shielded also. I did that just because of the length and risk of noise exposure.

[Father-of-Ash]

No luck on a male male db25 locally so far...2 more places to try, if they don't have it then I'll have to wait till Monday.:eek:

In the mean time I'm going over my metals list and should be able to order tomorrow, but just had a question about the rail angle iron... is there any y-car clearance issues using 5/16 thick rail?

[lonestaral]

On the m/m cable can you get a gender changer/ adapter ?

[servant74]

Bilal, ... I know it's old school, but find a 'yellow pages' (or their web site) and let your fingers do the walking. ... i.e. call around and ask if places have it, or if the people know where you might find it locally.

Expecially look for mom&pop shops, Radio Shack (but don't expect much help, but who knows!),

I started looking at http://www.yellowbook.com/s/electronic-parts/toledo-oh/ but also check surreounding areas.

Back 'in the day' I did a lot of sourcing things in the D-FW area, and YP was a normal starting point.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=db25 has it, if you are willing to pay for next day-Saturday delivery.

Lots of luck!

[Father-of-Ash]

Al, Jack, all the shops around here only offer usb to db25 which is only good for an older printer... I already have cables on order along with computer components...should see it all by Monday. I do have 2 more places to check...would be aggravating to wait till Monday.

Thanks
Bilal

[Father-of-Ash]

I finally tried new cables tonight to no avail. please help.
the axes do jog in mach3...as far as I can tell, software is fine.

Another question that I've asked wrong twice before, I plan to use two cutters in the Y and they sit about 14" apart. How much longer does the X need to be for both cutters to reach the ends? Is it as simple as adding the distance between the cutters to the X along with the 600mm?

Thanks again guys,
Bilal

[lonestaral]

Going by the book.

Normal printer port operation, checked ?(you may not have this screen pop up, I did not)

Native units, Inch or mm.

Port 1 enabled, checked ?

Kernel speed 25000 Hz, checked ?

Ports and pins, motor outputs set to your suppliers list correctly ?

E stop configured correctly?

X,Y and Z motors tuned(steps, velocity, acceleration all filled in) ?

Tab key bring out the Jog control screen ?
Jog not set to 0% ?

Charge pump needed?

spindle output (should make no difference, but I do not have a spindle) ?

Home switches ?

Soft limits set(turn on or off) ?

Just some basic settings to look at.
Got to start at the beginning again and again.

PS. When trying a program for my lathe, I could not figure out why the Single Block button would not indicate whether it was on or off.
It seems that the early screen did not have this feature.

[lonestaral]

Do your DRO's show movement but your motors do not turn ?
Just something else I thought of.

[Father-of-Ash]

.......it was the pins.

Sorry to bug you guys over my simple multiple overlooks...I'll try and keep that to a minimum.:rolleyes:

Hopefully I'm not starting again with this next question, I'm trying to slave my other X motor which is on pins A and B of the 126 but not sure what pin numbers those are on the parallel port.

[pblackburn]

Are you using a 134?

[Father-of-Ash]

No, I'm using two 133's

[pblackburn]

I hate to give such a vague answer but near the end of the 126 manual it gives the cross reference from parallel to the port 1 and port 2 pins. This is where it can be confusing but you have to go to the section of the manual for the motor directory and step locations. If you have printed out the manual. It makes it a ton easier. I would tell you exact pins but everyone's setup is a little different

[Father-of-Ash]

Had to switch to cell phone...Electricity flickering badly, storming hard.

Thanks Pete, lack of effort on my part. I do remember seeing those tables now. Manual is in garage but its coming down hard enough to drench me in that 40ft. run.

[Father-of-Ash]

I've been putting off my steel order because they need to be cut the same day they come otherwise they won't fit in the garage, so I was hoping someone can help me determine the X length, I am using two Z slides, one the spindle the other a pneumatic drill about 14" apart. I just want to varify that I'm measuring correctly, do I add the 14" distance along with the 600mm to the X?

I also would like to list my material weights that I chose, please let me know if they are way overkill or not. Keeping in mind I plan to cut aluminum plate with it and the four walls will be bolted to each other and the cross bearers bolted.
X beams 8x18.75 (roughly 14ft long?)
Cross bearers 4x7.25
3 legs of c6x10.5 welded to X beam supported by 4x2x1/8 tube.
gantry tubes 4x2x3/8
Z slide: 3/8 tool steel with the 2x1x3/16 backing

[Father-of-Ash]

Sorry...rough sketch.

Any recommendations to this as well?

[Father-of-Ash]

Some progress last night,

Y-car jigged and welded up & motors tuned.

Can anyone tell me how much clearance between Z slide tube and spider plate?

[Father-of-Ash]

Hello all,

I'm getting ready to order some hardened beveled washers, cheapest I'm finding so far has a minimum quantity of 200 for $110, is that a good price to pay? Is malleable ok to use instead of hardened(F436)?

[bradm]

Why hardened? I have 49 malleable square for 5/16 bolts; PM me with what you need and you can have 'em for shipping - or less if the shipping is trivial. I'd like to hold onto a few for odds and ends. I just looked; I used exactly 16 on my MM. Or, you could check out mcmaster.com - they've got them in small quantities at better prices than your 100 lot.

[Father-of-Ash]

Brad, thank you for the kind offer but I am planing on using 1/2 bolts...I'm going to check McMaster now.

Thanks

[Father-of-Ash]

Hello all,

metal is in and I'm about to start cutting my beams but my head is still not 100% wrapped around whether I have my X dimensions correct. One of my concerns is the offset of the spindle, it is more than 4 inches offset looking at 1010 300...does the 600mm addition of the X compensate for whatever position the spindle is in the Y car? I've been reading but can't find much to clarify this, every time I sit to read I get carried off on another subject of the build ...

Bilal

[pblackburn]

The + values add the correct amount for the gantry. As far as spindle placement to the spoilboard, that is dependent on the crossbearer locations.

[Father-of-Ash]

Pete, Thanks again for the quick reply.
So if my cutters are equidistant from the center of the Y-car, I can just add the distance between the cutters to the X beam length along with the 600mm and center my cross bearer layout to the X?

[pblackburn]

Trying to follow your question but am having a little trouble understanding the exact information you are looking for.

[Father-of-Ash]

Just want to make sure I'm doing this right ...mainly concerned about both cutters reaching both ends..

[pblackburn]

If you follow the prints for the length of your longitudinal beams,then it will be for that distance of cutting. I would add a couple of inches for wiggle room in my honest opinion. When looking at the prints you have to keep in mind which is the front and rear. I would have to open them up again but am fairly certain it gives the starting location for the first crossbearer. I did a bolt together build so it was critical to have the placement correct but if you are welding it doesn't take much to cut apart and move.

[Father-of-Ash]

Pete, I think fasting got to me today. (ya thats a good excuse:))

I think I confused myself once again but I found my answer here (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16850&postcount=67). and as soon as I read it, I remembered reading it a while back.:rolleyes:

Thanks again Pete, I'm going to have more questions on electrics for you, I remember reading about a safety relay for spindle you posted a wiring diagram for that looked similar to mine...I think.;)

two more questions I wanted to put in, what are the thickness of the bushings behind the z-slide V-wheels? and does anyone have recommendations on the spindle mount for 4kw 4" diameter, or do you think the Chinese mount are OK?

Thanks,
Bilal

[Gerald D]

The drawing set allowed for only one tool offset to one side. If you want to be safe, measure the distance between the two tools, and add this dimension to the overall table length as calculated for a single tool.

Also, your table can then be symmetrical in terms of cross-bearer locations . . . .

[Father-of-Ash]

Gerald , Perfect! Thank you, I was still trying to be sure about the cross-bearers as well.

Just so I have the view correct in my head, when looking at the last pic above, when installed on the gantry/table the bottom left corner of pic is considered 0,0 correct?

[Father-of-Ash]

Hello all,

Just wanted to chime in, good progress has been made. I meant to post some pics before I went on vacation but didn't get around to it in time. I just got back and I'll post some soon.

[Tom Ayres]

Pics of your vacation? Ha Ha;)

[Father-of-Ash]

Hello all,

Before I forget once again, I wanted to thank Brad. I took his offer on those washers, Thank you very much.

And thanks for those other parts Mike, much appreciated.

I will soon post a link to pics of progress.

Bilal

[pblackburn]

Looking forward to them

[Father-of-Ash]

Hello All,

here is a link to those pics so far.
https://plus.google.com/u/0/105712610525558171275/posts/Wwy6zpnHxUN?pid=6188656884572447826&oid=105712610525558171275

Rail grinding time tomorrow.
More pics and questions to come.

Bilal

[pblackburn]

Nice set of photos

[Tom Ayres]

I really like those welds, what amp welder are you using?

[lonestaral]

Great photos.
What camera did you use ?
Are those real gold bolts ?:)

[jhiggins7]

Good progress. Nice looking machine. Looks sturdy!

[smreish]

Well done and good progress.
Thank you for the photo's!

[Father-of-Ash]

Hello All,

Thank you for the nice comments.

Tom, I'm using the typical Lincoln 140. Decent welder but i wish it was a 220vac with higher duty cycle.
Al most of the pics were taken with a Nikon coolpix AW120, the rest with htc M8 cell phone.
The bolts are USA made, the zinc coating is definitely different then all other grade 8 bolts I've seen. they are from lexarindustrial.com ( moparman0110 on ebay)

[Father-of-Ash]

Hello all,

I got the rails cut and beveled, but not 100% to my liking. The 1mm gap in the center of bevel widens in certain areas, I'm hoping a final cutting pass will take care of that once they are mounted and leveled on the beams.

Im almost ready to tear the machine down for paint and wanted to ask for opinions on the best way to prep it. I was thinking scrubbing it down with steel wool and dish soap then drying with shop air piece by piece. I called rustoleum but forgot exactly what they recommended, primer + self leveling paint of some kind. I'll be posting more pics soon.

[timberlinemd]

For cleaning use naptha(first choice) or denatured alcohol. Spray (cup) with paint used for industrial machines. All of these products can be found at a professional paint supply store, such as Sherwin Williams or Benjamin Moore.

[Father-of-Ash]

Hello All,

That Naphta worked great Steve, thanks.

Here is a link (https://plus.google.com/photos/105712610525558171275/albums/6188656875550289377)to some pics of progress.

This industrial enamel takes forever to dry.

In the meantime I've been shopping for some E-chain, so far I'm interested in 5.92" wide igus for $17 a foot. Anyone have some suggestions to other options?

Also looking for some spindle mounts 100mm, the Chinese one is too wide for the Z.
Is 12awg good for a 4.5kw spindle? too much?

I'm hoping to progress faster now that the machine is almost ready to go back together. Thanks again!

[MetalHead]

Your build is looking great !!!

[Father-of-Ash]

Hello all,
I'd like to cut my own gearboxes and I've been looking, preferably 4:1. my gantry is very heavy, 1/4" wall tubes. the only confirmed boxes that fit the 72 tooth pulley that i could find are rischoof, chopper & mikes.
does JR's box fit a 4:1? I like the size and simplicity of it, I would only add a belt tension to it.
I also just realized that torque is effected at higher rpm that is needed to run the machine at non-monotonous speeds. should I be concerned with this using the pk299-F4.5A?
Where are you guys finding the kevlar XL belts? other then mcmaster @ $24 a pop for a 90 tooth 3/8":eek:

Pete, could you please tell me where you got those spindle mounts from? I likey.

Once I get this beast back together I'll hopefully be re-motivated to finish up the dreaded control box. A lot of holes and soldering to do.

Thanks All.

[pblackburn]

Stock drive products also carries belts that is another site to look at. I have a 4:1 reduction assembly that uses idlers and tensioners. It is for the Z but with some quick CAD changes you could make one to mount to the x, b and y. The spindle mount I made, if you would like to print let me know.

[Father-of-Ash]

Pete, I would love to have a look your boxes and spindle mounts.

I did check SDP/SI but they don't have kevlar in that config, abut then again I don't even know which boxes I'm going with yet so...:confused: (they do have it in 88 tooth)

I just had a look at your Z box and remembered it.
can you tell me how you calculated belt length with those additional idlers?

will a 20 tooth spur gear with 4:1 reduction become too a slow machine for the typical cnc'er? better with 25 or 30 tooth?

[Tom Ayres]

Bilal, here are the parts from SDP/SI that I suggest if you are using a half inch shaft,

A 6A 3-72NF03716 (72 tooth)
A 6A 3-18H3716 (18 tooth)

if your stepper shaft is 14mm like mine you'd have to machine the small pulleys. I have mine set up as 3.6:1 with a 20t pulley and kevlar belts but am looking to change it real soon. I do have belt reduction plates that someone was kind enough to share that work great. I'll have to dig up the files and get to you.

[Father-of-Ash]

Tom that would be much appreciated.

I also wanted to mention that B&B manufacturing is cheaper then sd/si, and Automation Direct is even cheaper then B&B. free shipping if over 50$, but they don't have kevlar belts.
I've used them a couple times so far.

Finally started assembling the machine last night, I'll put up some pics later today.

[pblackburn]

I also just realized that torque is effected at higher rpm that is needed to run the machine at non-monotonous speeds. should I be concerned with this using the pk299-F4.5A?

I have 3 different models of steppers and the 296 and 299 are 2 of those, I have found no problems so far. My rapids are 500 IPM because my ratios are lower so my steppers are turning fast. As far as the torque, properly sizing the power supply will help with that but torque/speed with always be an issue.

[Tom Ayres]

You can find the files I started with on Ross #74's (SURFCNC) Post#870. I think I modified them for my bearings, there is one of the support post (stand-off) holes that are real close so you may want to make modifications in that area. You can find a pic of the finished plates I cut with direct drive on my thread as well.

[Father-of-Ash]

Pete, thanks for the dxf.
Tom, I will take a look at Ross's as well.
Than you both for the info.
Here is a pic from today.

[servant74]

Looking great!

[MetalHead]

Hell of a grinder stand :) !!

Looks great!!

[Fox]

Look at my thread, I have 4:1, and already fixed many issues I found with other files and have removable pulleys etc.. can supply some files when needed.

[Father-of-Ash]

That's hilarious Mike:D, Thanks guys.

Fox I'll have to go through your thread again, too much stuff to remember;).
I still don't know what I'm gonna go with and last night I slowly realized how much more work I have ahead of me lol. I would love to see what you have.
Also wanted to ask for recommendations on spur gear tooth count. with a 4:1 box would you go 25 or 30? from what I've read a 20 tooth is too rough on the rack and probably overkill?

[Father-of-Ash]

Hello All,

slow progress but coming along. Drag chains should be in tomorrow.
I didn't realize how bad my rails are until I recently looked at them carefully. I ended up milling the top of them and need to re-bevel, and i was able to bevel both Z's on the mill as well.

had a couple questions, but got a brain fart at the moment. hopefully I'll remember tomorrow along with a couple pics.

[Father-of-Ash]

Hello all,

just some pics of progress(not much) and an updated album link here (https://photos.google.com/).
Also, mrosupply.com seems to be the cheapest for Boston spur gears free shipping no minimum. $16.87 for 30 tooth and $14 for 20tooth.

[darren salyer]

Looking good

[Tom Ayres]

Its coming along nicely

[Father-of-Ash]

Forgot to say Happy Holidays to all in observance!

Thank you for all the help thus far!

[Tom Ayres]

The same to you Bilal!:D

[Father-of-Ash]

Hello all,
slowly its been coming along.
I ran into some issues with the rails and main beams, turns out the flanges of the C-channel aren't very perpendicular which in turn doesn't let the rails sit straight in the V-wheels. I've been belt sanding the outer part of the beam to try and level it out, im pretty sure this has been discussed somewhere here, i think i remember reading it. I was thinking of running some shim stock along the length of the rail for leveling but didnt think that was the best in the long run. I'll put some pics up tomorrow about this issue.

[Nikonauts]

Hello all,
slowly its been coming along.
I ran into some issues with the rails and main beams, turns out the flanges of the C-channel aren't very perpendicular which in turn doesn't let the rails sit straight in the V-wheels. I've been belt sanding the outer part of the beam to try and level it out, im pretty sure this has been discussed somewhere here, i think i remember reading it. I was thinking of running some shim stock along the length of the rail for leveling but didnt think that was the best in the long run. I'll put some pics up tomorrow about this issue.

Hi there, Bilal.

Flanges of C-channel not perpendicular to what? The C-Channel web?

[smreish]

This has been addressed in many machines.
Personally, I have done the following:
- tipped the Channel and welded the "leg" of the channel plumb when I build the machine \_/ or /_\
- Thin Layer of body filler (bondo) on top flange and sanded flat.
- used metal shims to plumb the Vee Rail.

All worked with varied success. Shims are quick and a soda can is a perfect thickness

[Father-of-Ash]

Yes they aren't perpendicular with webbing. I guess never assume the obvious????? Unbelievable...

Thanks Sean, I ended up belt sanding them, one beam is almost done , just needs some finishing touches. Had to use 24 grit alumina zirconia to see any progress but it's coming. Annoyingly coming along..

[Fox]

I belt sanded them to close enough to be shimmed and then shimmed the rails.

[Father-of-Ash]

Hello all, just chiming in.

not much progress in the past 2 months, but should be getting back on it now. I'll update that photo album as well.

[Father-of-Ash]

Hello all,

Can anyone recommend a ethernet smoothstepper that has plugins for both mach and UCCNC? or do they exist? not sure why since i dont know either of these programs yet, figured i might switch over to UCCNC down the road because of some very positive hype about it.
And if it doesnt exist then what is the recommendation for an ESS for mach3,4? I already have mach3.

[danilom]

CNC drive has a motion controller with ethernet which works with Mach or UCCNC

UC400ETH ethernet motion controller
http://cncdrive.com/MC/UC400ETH%20datasheet/UC400ETH_manual.pdf

[Father-of-Ash]

Thank you Danilo,

Discovered Warp9 tech seems to be very popular as well and a lot more options, and they said they will be developing an SDK soon for it to be more versitile.

http://warp9td.com/index.php/products

[danilom]

At the rate of mach updates and bugfixes some of us may not live to use more versatile SDK :D

Don't know what could be supported on smoothstepper that is not on other devices which work with Mach3 or 4, so the performance is similar. UCx00 devices work with mach3 and UCCNC. others will work only with Mach3,4

I personally have Usb smoothstepper and pokeys57e and couple of CSMIO devices, just look at the update rate and bugfixes for each and it will show you which device is in development which is buggy and which is mature.

For me CSLabs CSMIO IP/M for machines not needing lots of IO is perfect... works with 24VDC IO and has analog IO no need for interface boards or anything like that, nice package not a board which is awkward to mount or fragile, no interference whatsoever and no bugs to speak of in plugins.

[Father-of-Ash]

Ok I'll look into those Danilo, Thanks for the advice.

[Father-of-Ash]

Hello All,

Just wanted to chime in, I'm still around.
here is a link of photos of where I'm at. https://goo.gl/photos/b2YK7z6tCxumeoKT8

[jhiggins7]

Thanks for the visual update. Looking great! Looks like there's a serial number in your future.:)

[Fox]

Very thorough..getting close ! Good luck on the last bit !
Are you a brainsurgeon during the day ? :D

[Father-of-Ash]

Thanks Fox,
Definitely not a brain surgeon.:eek:

[IamDave]

That thing looks YUGE>>>What are you planning on building?

[Father-of-Ash]

Hello All,

I'm finally back at it..... although it will take a bit to wrap my head around this thing again.
I Moved and took the machine with. got it leveled in the garage.

I've been wanting to ask if I should weld the two Z's together for additional support?

Thanks guys.
here's a link to the latest pics.
https://goo.gl/photos/b2YK7z6tCxumeoKT8

[Father-of-Ash]

Hi Davey, I missed your post.
Was planning on cutting acrylic and aluminum sheet for custom computer case builds, but that kinda fell through... So anything that comes my way now.:)

[Father-of-Ash]

Hello all,
I haven't got too far since my last post, got both Z's mounted and the table bolted to the beams. plugged the control box back in and now both of the Z motors are too weak to move the axis's, they sound like the gears are jumping out of the teeth but aren't, just jumping steps.

any suggestions?

[pblackburn]

I'm trying to catch up here. Where are the motors moving the axes before and now they're not?

[Father-of-Ash]

Correct, maybe its been a year since but nothing has changed. Just disconnected control box and plugged back in the other day.

[danilom]

Check wiring, if one wire of four is loose you get the sound just like jumping gears.
most critical are the drives connection, inspect the connector for heat traces

[lonestaral]

Yes, check your wiring.
Might have been a rodent.
A kitten chewed mine.

[Father-of-Ash]

Will do guys, Thanks. I havent been back at since last post, I'll let you know.

[Father-of-Ash]

Ok, I finally got around to checking all my wiring and connections and all had 0.0 resistance. I then swapped out my bigger X motor to one of the problem motors and same issue. I then swapped cables around and the problem stays on the same two gecko drives (Z & A ( two Z slides)). I then swapped out transistors, which made no difference.

could it be software?

here is a link to a video of the issue.
https://youtu.be/EmDsn9ra1Mc

[pblackburn]

are you sure your wiring is correct as far as phasing on the motors

[MetalHead]

Have you checked your spring dampeners to make sure they are ok? Does the motor work ok off of the machine? Sounds like if this is on your Z axis only your lift cylinders may need replacing.

[bradm]

In the audio of that video, it sounds like the motors are actually spinning. I wouldn't expect to hear that accell - run - decell sound if the motor was unable to move. From that angle I can't see the motor shaft, but it sure seems like a loose pinion grub screw to me.

[pblackburn]

From the video it appears you can move in one direction and not the other. Is that correct?

I have heard whining and grinding before at work when either the motion in the one direction has reached the end of travel or the weight is too great to move, you can hear that sound. If you are moving down ok but not up then I would ask, does it move up ok if you assist by helping lift when it is trying to run? Mike already made mention of the spring pressure. Also if the spring was installed with the rod up it has a greater possibility of the seal drying and relieving assist pressure needed for the lift if your gear reduction and stepper is not sized for a dead lift (which it should not be).

Any more info, even the smallest detail that may not seem relevant will usually provide the data to resolve a complex problem. I also recommend writing down everything you have done and the finding. This helps with forming a picture to pin down the problem or other issues that may need to be address.

Last but not least, with the motor not engaged in a gear or pulley. Will the motor turn both directions with no problems? If you are using a gear reduction method, attach the motor to the gear reduction but not to the Z slide and test the movement. Does it move in both directions? If these two tests pass then it is something in your Z slide.

I hope that helps.

[rischoof]

Hello Bilal,
Can you put somewhere an acceleration parameter in your machine software?
When I started up my machine I played with this parameter. If your acceration parameter is to high, your motor can't handle and wil stoll. put it significant lower (each time 10x lower) and looks how it works.

[rischoof]

for setting the acceleration parameter a had the following approch. I put it lower and lower, and when you start a movement from a certain axis you axis will move. when you have an very low acceleration parameter your acces will still move a couple of milimeter. the I raised the acceleration parameter a little. I repeted this until I reached a value when I stop the movement from an axis, the axis is visualy stopping. Your machine will run smoot.
when your acceration value is to High and you stop an movement from an axis, it looks like it's stopped by an hammer. and you will feel the frame shaking.

[rischoof]

also check if you turn the motor by hand (when power is shut of) the axis is moving, it can be that your bearings are put too tight and the slide has to much resistance.

[MetalHead]

One thing folks should keep in mind, just like on cars, over time and with use these dampeners wear out.

[Father-of-Ash]

Hello all, thank you for all the replies.

Finally back at it again, I did check the motor phase wiring and its correct.
The dampers are still good.
Brad, at first the audio confuse me as well, I thought the same thing. But the motors still make the same noise whether they are moving or not, remember its digital signal, not just a blast of power. Signal accelerates and decelerates.
Pete, it was just easier on the motor going in that direction that's why it moved.
No gear reduction yet. The motors do rotate both ways when disengaged and I think I figured out what's going on with them.
They have been weakened for sitting for two years+, they became demagnetized.
The bigger pk299 are affected as well but not as much, they still move the X & Y fine. But I can actually stop both the pk296 & pk299 from spinning with one hand, glove on. I shouldnt be able to do that should I? Especially the pk299?

I did call OM and they said this is possible if they've been sitting for that long.

I also plugged in the pk299 into the Z axis (pk296) and it did seem weaker, but I'm assuming from the different transistor.

Accel parameters are not perfect but seem to be fine for testing purposes.

Another video of me holding motors.
https://youtu.be/d0hd5qaL9qs

Please let me,know what you guys think.:)

[MetalHead]

I may have missed it in the threads, but have you looked at your Geckos? Also check the resistance of the limit resistor on the Gecko. Also try switching Gecko's and then the PMDX 133's. If this issue is on two motors step back to the next point in line to test.

[Father-of-Ash]

Hi Mike,
Geckos are all green, I will swap motors again along with their correct resistors to see if it has the same power from one gecko to another. and check those resistors.

[Father-of-Ash]

Well, I made some assumptions at first.... regrettably.

I assumed that only the two Z axes were the problem because the other axes were fine, or seemed so.
All 5 steppers are weak, just not weak enough to skip steps on the X and Y axes. I can stop all 5 motors with one hand, each on their own gecko.
The gears should jump out of the pinion if it is a over weight issue, correct? it just doesn't seem right that I can hold the steppers from turning with one hand.

resistors on the pk299-4.5a are @ 240k(x & y), and the pk296-4.5a @ 82k (Z x2)

[MetalHead]

Do you have a degaussing coil?

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/general-cnc-machine-related-electronics/3848-scrap-steppers-servos-quickly.html

Post #9 was interesting about remagnetization.

But I have seen quite a few threads on demagnetization killing torque on these motors.

We may be on our way to a sticky thread in Motors Section.

Also may be time to consider switching to a cheaper type motor that matched the design of your electrics.

Import steppers have come down in price, so at this point I think one should order one to see if that is the fix considering all other elements seem to work fine.

Like capacitors, stuff does get "used up" over time. Of course in this case due to sitting.

[Father-of-Ash]

Interesting Mike much appreciated. I don't have a degaussing coil, but might be cheaper to try an import stepper first to be 100% on whats happening.

Also adding gear reduction might fix my problem as well, which is next on the list.

any particular brand of stepper you would recommend? KL34H280-45-8A? in place of a pk296-f4.5a

[MetalHead]

What voltage are you running at the motors?

[Father-of-Ash]

Using the AN-10440, I have 57vdc out from the caps.
I still havent refamiliarized myself with the electrical requirements.

[Father-of-Ash]

ok, just finished going over voltage requirements. looks like I'm a bit over the recommended 20%, should i be concerned? although it will match the KL34H280-45-8A @2.2mH inductance much better.

I ordered 2 of them tonight. will post what happens when i get them installed.

[Father-of-Ash]

Ok, I failed again.
Impatience and assumptions + MM = fail.
I'm assuming once again that these motors should tear the meat off my hand if I attempt to hold them.....
There definetly was a difference in the Kelling being 200+ oz. More powerful, but still didn't do the job.
Dampers seem fine. If I go with a heavier or lighter capability I will probably end up in same scenario but in opposite directions.
So I'm hoping gear reduction should be able to handle it.

[MetalHead]

So are you saying you got your motors and still have an issue?

[pblackburn]

also remember that 200 in-oz is 200 ounces at 1 inch at maximum torque or 12.5 lb at 1 foot.

[pblackburn]

I use a 880 oz-in motor for my z. I use a ball screw for mine and it is overkill but I already had it. Still even with that I have a extension spring to equalize the weight of the Z so it will not free fall. Re-familiarize yourself with the properties of a stepper motor. It sounds like it is a weight issue to me. That is why I asked if you helped assist the motor if it would rise. You are using the same computer/program/settings right?

[pblackburn]

If you swapped the motor to your X or B axes (assuming they are the same motors) and they move that axis fine I would lean toward a weight issue. If you can't swap it with one of those then use the Y.

[Father-of-Ash]

Yes Mike, same issue although not really an issue, I'm just expecting too much out of the motors.
Pete, first thing I should of done is refamiliarized, but my time is limited and I got impatient.
It would rise if I assisted it, but seemed way too weak of a motor, again just expecting much more, which is my fault.
I'm going to try other then McMaster Carr for a damper in closer range..
Pete, other then that, I'm gonna work on some reduction boxes using your files, just try and make them look sexier.;)

[MetalHead]

Just so I understand. These motors move X & Y just fine?

[Father-of-Ash]

Yes Mike, the pk299 move the x & y fine, but fairly close to skipping steps( very heavy gantry tubes + y-car stuff). Pk299 wasn't tough enough for the Z's either, that's why I thought I had motor issues. And the Z,s didn't seem too tough to pull back up/ push down... Again just complete ignorance on my part about the motors.

[Father-of-Ash]

Hello all,

I've got the spindle spinning from mach3 through a PMDX-107, but cant change RPM through mach3. I used warpd9 smooth stepper settings for mach and set main parameters in VFD, setting PD013 first, then 5,4,3,6-12 & 140-145.
I think that it is a parameter that is set incorrectly, but not sure.
I'm using the Haunyang HY04d023b w/ 4kw spindle.
PD005 - 400
PD004 - 400
PD003 - 400
PD006 - 2.5
PD007 - 20
PD008 - 220
PD009 - 15
pd010 - 8
Pd011 - 120
PD014 - 12
PD015 - 12
PD141 - 220
PD142 - 10
PD143 - 3
PD144 - 3000
PD070 - 0

I also customized Pete's Z-axis plates, just put a couple curves in them. I was hoping someone could quote me on cutting them out. local quotes seem too high, but then again I'm not sure what a decent price is for something like this.:confused:

[pblackburn]

I use a Hitachi drive so I would not be much help with confirming the settings but modbus can be tricky to set up in mach, I did have pics in my thread with the setup I used that could be for reference, also search cnczone for info

[pblackburn]

The more complex the part, the more it costs to make. A part that can be made manually that is quick and easy to make is less than one with complex curves. Changing the rounded rectangle to 1.5" radius or boxing it to use only a 0.500" endmill reduces cost to make as well. Most machine shops will work with you if you ask him what you can do to the part design to help lower the cost to get it within your budget.

[Father-of-Ash]

Thanks Pete, it seems most people go the modbus route. is the only reason RPM accuracy?

I got the part quoted both ways, modified and unmodified and he wanted $30 more per.

anyone willing to cut it?

[bradm]

If I'm looking at the right online manuals, you need to set PD-163, PD-164, PD-165 to an address, baud rate, and type of modbus protocol you want to use. Also PD-002 for what source controls frequency - probably value 2.

I can't tell if this article is obsolete or not (https://buildyourcnc.com/FAQ/13375) in terms of setting up the Mach3 side.

[Father-of-Ash]

Thanks Brad, it doesn't look obsolete. same parameters as what my manual shows, but I'm not going modbus route. I believe those parameters are modbus only?

and can someone tell me what is a decent price to pay for those plates?

Thank you.

[bradm]

Whoops, I missed that. So you're trying to PWM to control the frequency, and you're wired from the PMDX-107 to that input? Do you have PD-002 set to 1 ?

[pblackburn]

Get quotes around your area and online with RFQs, they will vary much, figure cost of material plus standard cut rate plus tolerance fee. The lowest I have heard of is $50/hr but most will be a lot higher than that.

[Father-of-Ash]

Brad, correct and PD-002 is set to 1

does $225 per plate sound fair?

[pblackburn]

If the tolerance is +- 0.005, that is inline with most quotes I receive at work. But like I said, don't be afraid to shop around.

[Father-of-Ash]

Thanks Pete, most guys around here (Toledo) wont bother with the one off part.

next question might be silliest on the forum but...
When I'm standing in the "front" or "Material feed" end of the table, my spindle home is at the back right corner and when I bring my X forward, the DRO will read in the negative. So once i got my soft limits set, it wouldn't allow the X to budge from its home position. Y axis is fine as it goes into a positive reading from home.
So how do I flip the + and - readings on the X? I'm hoping software only solution...

[pblackburn]

Change the wiring on the driver to the motor for x and b to reverse the direction it travels

[bradm]

Or change the polarity on the direction pin, if your software allows.

Have you tried the various online machining services - emachineshop and the like? I haven't used them, but if you can't find a local shop, maybe one of those services will do.

[Father-of-Ash]

For some reason my post submission didn't go through the other day.

I ended up swapping wiring, you can only reverse the slaved axis in software.

I tried online, came back at 250 not including some finishing touches I couldn't figure out in 3d. I ordered them from my first quote.

Mean time, still figuring out the spindle RPM issue. it will spin up to whatever parameter I have set in PD-011 "frequency lower limit" .

Once I get those plates in, I should have a working Z and hopefully make a first cut.
Till then, need to cut & thread some stand-offs and pulleys for gearboxes.

Thanks for your quick replies guys.

[bradm]

I think I would hang a meter across the analog speed input of your VFD to see what the measurement is, and if it varies in response to changing the software setting.

Based on what you've described I'd expect you'll find it's a low voltage and doesn't vary, causing minimum speed to be invoked.

Would you care to tell us:

1- Are you using 0-5v, 0-10v or ratiometric according to the PMDX manual wiring options?
2- Did you do the speed calibration shown in the PMDX-107 manual? Is the trim pot all the way counter clockwise at the moment?
3- What the PMDX-107 dip switch settings are?

[Father-of-Ash]

Wow:)

Ok, Reading from VI to ACM terminals is 0 and VI to DCM is .80
VI connected to Aout @ pmdx
DCM to COM " "
ACM to Agnd " "
I'm using 0-10v.
I didn't bother with calibration yet, trim pot is all the way counter clockwise.
All switches are set to the off position.

another confusing thing on the VFD is the dual terminal rails where there is an ACM and DCM on each rail. I tried using both with no difference.

[bradm]

That all seems correct. The redundant commons (ACM and DCM) are pretty er, commonly found for convenience when wiring multiple harnesses to the VFD.

I suspect that the trim point all the way down means you are never outputting any voltage, and you need to do the calibration as the next step, at which point you will get both voltage measurements, and speed control.

[Father-of-Ash]

ok. more confusion. I made sure trim pot is all the way CC before starting system, started test mode and played with pot but nothing would happen. started system with pot turned fully clockwise and then tried adjusting and it would increase spindle RPM in the CC direction. spindle max RPM was almost fully CC, and then pressed test button once and it sped up to 375Hz then pressed button once more and exited test mode.
In mach3 I entered 1000 RPM and spindle went to almost its max RPM @ 398hz, and then when i tried increasing RPM even more by pressing the "+arrow", it dropped RPM and went to 320hz, then turned off spindle at which point it increased RPM again and then shut down.
And Parameters PD-072 & PD-073: Lower & Higher Analog frequency are set to 100 & 400.

[bradm]

What does a meter with black on ACM and red on VI show during the test? Any chance you have aout and agnd reversed?

I notice you have a yellow/green wire connected to VI, does that go to aout as it should?

[Father-of-Ash]

Again, thank you for the quick replies.

ACM to VI is still 0
DCM to VI is .6

Yes, VI is connected to Aout

Any idea why trim pot is functioning backwards?

[bradm]

So not getting a reading from ACM to VI is weird, and so is getting a reading from DCM to VI. It makes me continue to be suspicious of a wiring error. I assume the reading at VI must have moved during the test or you wouldn't have seen frequency variation. Are you able to set up the meter so that you can watch it during the test?

Theories on trim pot backwards:

It's acting as if you're moving against a 10v reference instead of ground; when it's all the way up 10v-10v = 0v = no motion. As you decrease you get 10v - 7v = 3v, 10v - 5v = 5v, ... 10v - 0v = 10v.

Or, as if you have PD071 - PD076 set up for a reverse curve.

Hmm. What's the voltage between ACM and DCM? Should be either an open circuit, or 0v.

[Father-of-Ash]

Thanks Brad, sorry for the delay.
I'm suspicious of my volt meter, its an old digital one but when I went to test ACM to VI again before I starting it in test mode, it showed voltage ramping up to around 2.5, but then every other time I checked it it showed nothing.
I looked at wiring again and it is as listed in post #204.

Havent had time to get back on it but I Wil recheck PD-071-76.
ACM to DCM is open.
Trtimg,to get my hands on a newer multimeter.

[bradm]

Well, for measuring simple DC voltage, Harbor Freight will sell you a disposable piece of junk for 6 bucks or so. I must own five of them, scattered around so that I don't have to go fetch the one good meter most of the time.

[Father-of-Ash]

Ok, sorry for the long delay, I'm finally back at it.

In the mean time all I got done was the Z reduction box, which now works fine.
Also bought a used Fluke 87v...

-ve on ACM to +ve on VI when starting test mode, goes from 15mV ac drops quick to 5mV and keeps dropping slower to 2.0mV and holds there.
between VI and ACM when nothing running is .6V
and between ACM and DCM is .6v as well.
not sure whats up with it being millivolts.
PD-075 - 76 are set to 0

I went over wiring one last time:
Aout to VI
Agnd to ACM
COM to DCM
fwd to for
rev to rev
dip switches are all set to off.
I tried switch 6 in 5v mode and 10v mode with the exact same results.

[bradm]

That control voltage should be DC. If you're measuring it in AC, then you're basically measuring the noise and power supply ripple, not the signal value.

If the meter really was in Volts AC, can you try again in Volts DC?

[Father-of-Ash]

lol, Thanks Brad. your time is much appreciated.
DC voltage reads better, VI to ACM jumps to 5.5vdc on test start, pressed once more and RPM ramps up and voltage drops to 1.6vdc.

[bradm]

Okay, so those sound like reasonable voltage readings. Now let's confirm polarity.

You've got the (-) side of the meter on ACM, and the (+) side on VI, and the reading is positive voltage? If not, something is backwards somewhere.

If so, then we're looking for issues with the VFD setup.

[Father-of-Ash]

Thank you Brad, voltage read positive.
I pretty sure base parameters are set correctly, but not sure about the rest of them and how they impact operation.
PD-000=0
1=0
2=1
3=400
4=400
5=400
6=2.5
7=20
8=220
9=15
10=8
11=120
14=12
15=12
141=220
142=10
143=3
144=3000
70=0
Using 4kw,spindle and a HY04D023B VFD http://www.probotix.com/wiki/images/c/c5/Huanyang_SL_Series_Manual.pdf

I believe this is the same manual i have. had a hard time finding same link

[bradm]

I don't think that PDF is correct. The model name scheme doesn't match. Using this one. (http://zlitos.com/pub_file/00005_inverter/inverter_instruction_manual.pdf)

With PD01 = 0 you're manually setting the VFD in run mode, I assume.

PD11 = 120 says never slower than 24000 / 400 * 120 = 7200 RPM. That's wise for air cooled; for water cooled you could allow slower.

PD14 and PD15 may be limiting your speed ramps to no faster that 12 seconds to come to speed.

I think you need PD72 set to 400, not the default of 50. I suspect this might be your issue.

I think PD143 should be either 2 or 4, and likely 4. How many poles are indicated on the nameplate of your spindle?

This blog post might be helpful as confirmation (http://www.halfbakedmaker.org/blog/post_id).

[Father-of-Ash]

I could never find my model # HY04D023B in any manual, its always skipped. but the one you linked is what I've been using.
PD-001 is set to 1, was a typo.

Thank you very much for that blog post, clarified a couple things.
I set PD11 to 50 for a min. of 3k rpm
I kept PD14-15 at 12 because I wasn't sure of a healthy ramp up time.
set PD72 to 400
PD143 to 4, but I couldn't verify what I actually have. model# is a GDZ-19 which comes back as a 1.5kw spindle but the other specs say that its a 4kw spindle and it has the 100x300mm body of a 4kw spindle.
I did reset the VFD to default before I started and used the settings in your link except for PD11 I kept at 50 for 3k RPM minimum, PD70 @ 0, because dip-switch 6 on pmdx-107 is off so its 0-10v & PD73 @ 50Hz. and now it's giving me E.OC.A error = Error. Over Current. At Acceleration. So i set PD11 & 73 back 120Hz and same error appeared. Then set PD3 & 4 to 400Hz and it worked. Not sure how accurate RPM is through mach3, 3000 RPM does sound slow, but spindle speed is adjustable now through mach3 using the green bar but stops working after played with 3 or 4 times.
while PD11 & 73 were set @ 50Hz and mach3 spindle RPM set to 24k RPM, VFD would max out @ 245Hz. Then set PD11 & 73 back to 120 and max @24k RPM in mach reaches 276Hz @ VFD :confused:

edit: I just noticed status in Mach says "Too fast for pulley..using Max" so is spindle calibration needed again?

[bradm]

So, nothing should be set to 50hz - all of those are defaulting to the lowest of the three common motor frequencies ( 50, 60, 400 ). You have a spindle, not a pump motor, so PD4,5,72 should all be 400.

I would expect PD73 to be 0, meaning that when the analog input is at 0 volts, you run the spindle at 0 hz; PD72 is at 400, meaning that when the analog input is at full ( 10v if PD70 is 0), you run the spindle at 400hz; this sets the control range. In that blog post, he's setting it up so that the manual speed nob goes from 120 to 400hz, which makes sense for intuitive manual operation, but in the computer controlled case, we want the 0 to 10v to linearly span from 0 to 400Hz, not from 120 to 400Hz.

You should validate that you really have 10v across ACM and VI when Mach3 is set for 24k. That will confirm whether there are still VFD setup questions or Mach3/ PMDX setup questions. The fact that shifting the control range higher ( from 50 - 400 to 120 - 400 ) results in a higher speed makes me suspect that there isn't a full 10v there:

400 - 50 = 350hz range across 0-10v. 245hz - 50base = 195hz. 195 / 350 * 10 = 5.5V

400 - 120 = 280hz range across 0-10v. 276hz - 120base = 156hz 156 / 280 * 10 = 5.5V

400 - 0 = 400hz range across 0-10v. 220 - 0base = 220hz. 220 / 400 * 10 = 5.5V ( Prediction for PD73 = 0 )

Above, you mention that 5.5V as what happened when you were in test mode on the pmdx. Those numbers match that exactly.

Re-reading the PMDX-107 manual, it does look to me like you need to complete the calibration in section 2.6 again - in particular step 6, now that you've got the VFD settings correct. If you keep a meter on during this process, I bet you'll find you have 5.5V output because the trim pot on the PMDX is all the way down, and that as you increase it, you both have the the spindle speed go up, and voltage, with the vfd hitting 400hz right about the same time the voltage hits 10v.

I can't help with the Mach3 side - I've never used it.

[Father-of-Ash]

Thank you Sir!

Trim pot works correctly in clockwise direction now that VFD settings are correct. It was turned all the way down from my last attempt. Re-calibrated and now 9.8v = 400Hz.
In Mach when you punch in the RPM it works fine, but when you adjust with side bar it goes to max RPM... No biggie, not worried about it if it stays like that, I'll try mach3 spindle calibration again, might fix it.

The baby steps are much appreciated, and at the same time I apologize.
I did keep PD11 set to 50 so lowest RPM is 3k. I don't think its effecting anything other then minimum RPM.

[bradm]

Awesome, glad it's under control! Yeah, the PD11, PD14/PD15 stuff is really more about what you decide is right for your equipment.

Happy routing!

[Father-of-Ash]

Hello all,

Finally, I've done my first cut of the roadrunner.

I wanted to ask how most of you normally set up your machines as far as home and X0,Y0.
Is "Home" the location the spindle is supposed to go back to when done cutting the job?
When facing front end of machine, I set home to the back right corner and then bring it forth to do my work piece offsets. which means X+ is when the gantry comes towards you and Y+ is to the left.
I always felt that X0,Y0 on your work piece should be on your bottom left corner. I'm having a hard time figuring out what controls that, cad/cam or the way I have mach3/machine setup?

And in the mean time,
I've redrawn Petes reduction box plates again and playing with Dolphin Cam, and now Fusion 360 Cam which is so intuitive and free for business's making under 100k and students. cloud based.
once loaded into mach, the machine wants to take off to lala land. I tried putting work piece very close to X0Y0 in both Cad and CAM... not sure what I'm doing yet.

Hope to be cutting some aluminum plates out soon!

A link to first cut.
https://youtu.be/UwB066g8FvE

Updated a few more pics.
https://goo.gl/photos/b2YK7z6tCxumeoKT8

[jhiggins7]

Looing really good. Thanks for the link to all the photos. I see a "blue" machine and it's cutting. Slap some logo's on it and get a Serial Number.

[Tom Ayres]

Congrats Bilal! I remember how exited I was when I first cut 'the roadrunner', feeling awesome feeling.

[Father-of-Ash]

Thanks guys,
forgot about the serial number, you'll see the logo on the next video, hope to be cutting aluminum.

[jhiggins7]

Looking forward to the logo's, Bilal.

I'm also considering cutting aluminum. Please keep us in mind when sharing your experiences. Speeds and feeds, cutters, hold down challenges, lubricants ( if any ), chip removal, etc.

[Father-of-Ash]

Will do John,
I've been having an issue with mach, every time I zero a piece and start cutting, the z is always offset too high by 1.3" .... Its nothing can find in cam software, I'm fairly sure there is somthing in mach that keeps offsetting. While loading gcode, I can see the Z DRO jump up by 1.3" then back to where is was.

Any ideas?

[ger21]

G43 Tool length offset. Check your tooltable for a tool length of 1.3

[Father-of-Ash]

Thank you Sir.... That's what it was... I thought I didnt have anything set in it.

[IamDave]

I am only going to say two words about your build. "Totally-AWESOME!" I am going to strive for my next build to be as awesome as yours.

[Father-of-Ash]

thank you for the complement!
I have a few updates I got done, I'll be posting soon.

[Panovak]

Your Google photo bucket images and videos are my go to resource right now for my build. I'm definitely a visual learner. Thank you.

[Father-of-Ash]

Paul, I'm happy to see people take benefit.
I've been meaning to post here for quite some time, professional procrastination at its best.
Many members here have been very generous with there knowledge and time, and are much appreciated.

Machine has been up and running for quite some time now as well, haven't done much with it as of yet but definitely plan to now.
I'll update my photos, get a video posted soon and snatch me a serial #!