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gmessler
Tue 25 September 2007, 14:18
Hello everyone!:)

I thought I'd post the progress on my 49x97 Mechmate. The project was started in the beginning of June '07 with the electrical. With the exception of a slight operator error issue,:o
http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3626&postcount=14
I got the motors turning. Then everything went on hold because of work. :( Now it is the end of September and I'm able to continue with the Mechmate.

Two weeks ago I had the steel for the table delivered. The enclosure and supplies arrived as well.

I began with the enclosure until I ran into the need for insulators for the aluminum driver support. This led me into the cutting and welding of the gantry. In addition to others I've found that I am not a welder by far. As time and welds went by I did a better job. Unfortunately the better welds are on the bottom.

Next I'll move to grinding my rails. I thought it best to take J.R.'s advice and not cut the 7" c-channel and to use as support for grinding my rails. I also decided to grind the full 20' x2 rails before cutting them down. I'm now waiting to see how Greg J. does with his skateboard as well as J.R.'s modified skateboard. Because I don't have a lathe I was thinking of using offset bushings, like the ones for the z-rail to raise and lower my skateboard.

Off to build a skateboard.

Greg M

Greg J
Tue 25 September 2007, 15:23
Greg,
Looking good.

I'm slowly, but surely making progress on the rail edge grinder (J.R.'s skate). I changed out grinders, and it helped tremendously. The skate still doesn't make that perfect edge (may not need to be perfect), so I'm adding "outrigger's". My 2.5 inch x 2.5 inch x 1/4 inch angle is supposed to arrive today (nothing as of this post).

Hopefully I'll have a finished product and pictures this weekend.

Keep the progress reports and pictures coming.

Almost forgot. The thing that helped me out the most with the welding was an auto darkening helmet. My welds improved 200%.

Greg

gmessler
Thu 27 September 2007, 10:02
Hello Everyone, :)

I finished my grinder mount for the $15 harbor freight baby grinder.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91223
I hope it's powerful enough. Gerald recommended a .45 cutting disk however harbor freight has a set of 10 disks for $4 that are .62. I'm going to give them a try, mostly because I already have the disks and don't have to wait to get new ones.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=45430

I've designed the carriage so that once I'm done cutting my rails I can insert it into my skate.
I was originally going to try to cut and grind the rails while they were 20' long but trying to move those things around is a nightmare. Looks like it will be 2-12' and 2'-8' pieces (should have watched J.R. more closely).:D

Here are some photos of the carriage and some crude drawings of the skate setup. I ordered my skate bearings yesterday. Hopefully they'll arrive soon.

Now after seeing Gerald's videos It will be hard not to try to rush the build :D

domino11
Thu 27 September 2007, 12:05
Greg,
Your build looks awesome. Keep up the pictures, you inspire those of us who are behind you in the construction. What are your interests for the machine once its complete?

gmessler
Fri 28 September 2007, 12:53
Thanks Heath:) The current plans for the machine are to cut out parts from hardwood for a product I want to begin selling. After telling a friend that I was building a CNC router he told me that his company uses a company in another state for signs and other things. He thinks he can get me the business, or at least a portion of it.

Here are a couple more pictures. I've mounted the grinder to a piece of channel I had laying around. Once I placed my angle iron on the channel you can see the gap between the angle and channel. This is because all the angle iron I have is bent and bowed. It may be best to mount the angles then cut them. Not sure how. Possibly a different type of skate. and then grind them.

If anybody has any suggestions I would appreciate it.

Thanks

Gerald D
Fri 28 September 2007, 13:05
Greg, without knowing how far your sawhorses are apart, or how much the channel may be bowed, or how much the angle is bowed, or if the angle is bowed in both directions, I am very tempted to bend the channel to meet the angle. Sound crazy? :)

I would consider setting a welder to 300 Amp and running a short weld from each of those holes in the channel down to the bottom edge, but I would flip it over on the sawhorses so that the weight helps with the bending . . . . . . .

gmessler
Fri 28 September 2007, 13:33
Thanks for responding Gerald,

At first it sounds crazy but after thinking about it it may be enough to fix the problem. Too bad my wirefeed welder won't go that hot. Possibly a torch. The sawhorses are 48 inches apart and the channel is 70 inches long. I layed a straight edge across the channel and there is about a .030 gap so there is a slight bow in the channel adding to the bow of the angle. I thought about using a couple of v bearings mounted to the channel to help hold the angle down. The problem with that is it will make moving the angle past the grinder difficult.
I was able to find locally a grinding disk that should work. It's a Metabo superslicer extreme performance, 4.5"x.045" A60XP cat#655994000 $3.99. The manager of the Berland's house of tools said it was "the best".

Regards

Gerald D
Fri 28 September 2007, 13:43
Okay, I said 300 Amp because that's what I can do. You could do lower current, more runs. Inside and outside the channel. A weld bead is much more effective than a torch to shrink metal.

Gerald D
Fri 28 September 2007, 13:46
You could also lay a small speedbump on the channel, under the center of the disk/grinder. The angle might rock slighty (veeerrrryyyy small angle change) but the height to disk will be consistent.

Alan_c
Fri 28 September 2007, 13:59
Hi Greg

Have a look at this prototype (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5013&postcount=45) of mine it may help solve your problem.

Alan

gmessler
Fri 28 September 2007, 14:42
Well Gerald,

I really have to thank you. Your method worked. Here is an after photo. As it worked out because I only welded around the middle 18 or so inches it created a very slight raise in the channel at the grinder. In effect creating your "speed bump". The ends (2 feet out) have about .01 gap at them but the 3 inches before and after the grinder are perfectly level. I'll begin the cutting now and keep you posted.

Thanks for the suggestion Alan but I'm going to give this a try now. Prior to reading your thread I was going to lube up the angle with silicone but thanks to Doug's reply I'll avoid that. (thanks Doug)

Gerald D
Fri 28 September 2007, 21:36
Let those small welds be a lesson to the inexperienced . . . . . welds shrink metal and cause bending if applied off-center. More welding makes more distortion. But, you can use the distortion sometimes. :)

The silicon I used was for sliding the steel over wood. In general I hate silicon because it makes surfaces unpaintable.

It will always be a good idea to clean the rough "mill-scale" and rust off the metal surfaces before trying to slide them.

domino11
Sun 30 September 2007, 08:52
Gerald,
I know all too well the problems with shrinking metal! :eek: My welding experience started out using a mig welder on some thin body sheet metal for car restorations. It sure doesnt take long to realize that you cant just run a 2 foot bead on a replacement panel and expect it to look like it should when you are done. :( Small welds, stagger them, let cool , then repeat process for minimal warpage.

gmessler
Mon 15 October 2007, 21:46
Hello Everyone,

I finished cutting my rails over the weekend. Now that I'm done, reading all the new threads about the metal cutting blade sounds like it might be an easier approach. Although I can only imagine the cut edge would have to be dressed using a fixture similar to the one I used for cutting my rails.

I'm glad I purchased the Metabo superslicer cutting disks instead of using the Harborfreight bargain disks. I began working on my skate today. needing to cut the slots for the grinder disk and rail bearings, I didn't have enough material on the Metabo disks so I used one of the bargain harborfreight disks. What a nightmare! As you can see from the photo the Metabo disk left a very clean finish on the surface. Very small sparks during the cutting and I only used 4 disks to complete the 40 feet of angle. The Harborfreight disks threw very large sparks everywhere. I believe most of that was the cutting media itself. It also left a very poor cut in addition to using almost half a disk to cut two 5" slots.

I've finished most of the skate today and will upload more pictures tomorrow. I ran a brief test and it seemed to work well. I have to make a minor adjustment to the angle. It's off by a degree or two. I think drilling the two back screw holes out by one or two sizes will solve the problem.

More later

gmessler
Tue 16 October 2007, 23:18
Here are a few more shots. :) The skate is all welded up and now needs to be painted and re-assembled. A shot of the table(still in progress), a shot of the 1.25" sch 40 for the table diagonals, cut down rails and fixture,the rest of the cross bearers.

I've made a few minor changes to the table design. Adding a second "shelf" for storage and choosing to bolt the table together. I still have to add the diagonal cross braces per the drawing. I've used 3/8" bolts and drilled all the holes 3/8" so everything is a very tight fit. End to end I cannot make the assembly "shake". Side to side there is a very slight amount but once the cross braces are added I'm sure the thing will be rock solid. Each of the side supports is an assembly as will be each of the ends. Each of the end supports will include one of the 10-10-302's. Once everything is aligned I'll weld the two end units cross bearers to the x rails.

Once the table is finished I'll begin the grinding of the rails. I'll be grinding them right on the X beams then cutting them to size. J.R. mentioned in one of the threads to contact him before beginning this operation. I hope he gets back soon. I'm not sure if I should bolt the rails down then grind or just clamp them in place.

More pics to come.

driller
Wed 17 October 2007, 06:35
Awesome !

I have a 1983 Cutlass Supreme

As for grinding on the unit, I think the clamps will be in the way.

Dave

gmessler
Thu 18 October 2007, 19:09
Hi Everyone,

I've spent the last two days cleaning and organizing the garage to make room for this beast. :) Just tonight i was able to finally complete the skate.

I hope to grind the rails over the weekend. I guess I'll go ahead and drill / tap and otherwise attach the rails before grinding. I'll just leave the extra hanging out each end and cut the ends off when finished.

After attempting to drill a hole by hand in the x channel I realized how much easier it is to use the drill press. Not to mention it saves on the drill bit and the muscles. I've already drilled 152 - 3/8" holes with the same hss bit. One hand works the bit the other sprays the WD40. Can't do it like that with a hand drill. :D

It works out that I've attached the x channel by bolts. Now I can unbolt it and take it over to the drill press.

I'll keep you all posted on progress.

Greg J
Fri 19 October 2007, 06:32
Greg,

Nice looking skate !!

Looking forward for progress report this weekend :)

Greg

smreish
Fri 19 October 2007, 08:41
Greg,
What keeps the vertical eccentric bearings from changing it's setting. Or does the single axle bolt get loosened/re-tightened after each vertical grinding pass? I see the same arrangement on JR's and was trying to determine how to keep it from changing the depth setting.
Sean

gmessler
Fri 19 October 2007, 08:58
Hi Sean,

Just like you thought. The center bolt gets loosened, the levers move up to increase the depth of cut then they are tightened again. I never put on the handles I purchased. I just grab the vertical pieces on each side of the grinder. I still have to run another test to re-check my angle after I made the adjustment. On the down side, which shouldn't be a problem, I cannot change the disk while the grinder is in the fixture. On the bottom eccentrics I had to cut slots in the bearing supports to hold them in place while I tightened the bolts.

Greg

gmessler
Tue 23 October 2007, 12:10
I've attached some drawings for my skate. I believe all the dims are correct. Sorry for the crude drawings. I am using Corel and not a CAD program. I should probably be learning the TurboCAD that I have but this was easier and much quicker for now :p. These drawings are only for the base part of the skate. The grinder mount is shown in a pic earlier in my thread. Keep in mind that the grinder mount is designed for a Harborfreight grinder. I'm sure it could easily be modified to mount a different grinder like Geralds. It also serves as the rail cutting fixture. The bearings I used (Thanks Greg J:)) are from
http://www.vxb.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=bearings&Product_Code=R12ZZ&Category_Code=

Based on the current flurry of activity in the rail grinding thread I'm sure this base could be modified to use the brass screws Gerald was talking about. I think that it is a great suggestion in following the KISS concept. I only wish that thread had come up before I made my base. Cutting the small end holes proved to be quite a bear. Lots of filing.

I thought I'd be able to begin grinding my rails over the weekend but my wife had my weekend all accounted for :D. Plus all the drilling and tapping of the rails took longer than I expected.



Let me know if anybody finds any problems with the drawings.

Cheers!

gmessler
Wed 24 October 2007, 16:03
I was able to grind the X rails today.:) I'll continue tonight with the Y rails.
Here is a photo. The perspective it was taken from makes it look uneven. Both sides are equal though with a 1mm unground portion. They are easy enough to grind, just time consuming. I had to remove the bolts and tac weld the rail to the channel to grind it.

Gerald,
Thanks for the reminder about the 203's having internal fuses. I know I've read about that but sometimes I get so focused on where I'm headed that I get tunnel vision. Instead I'll order part #9290T12 from McMaster.com. It's probably overkill but I have to pick up other things from there as well.

Doug_Ford
Wed 24 October 2007, 16:59
They look gorgeous. How long did they take per angle iron?

gmessler
Wed 24 October 2007, 19:33
Hi Doug,

It's hard to say. I stopped and started so many times. Neighbor stops by... wife stops by..... ran the skate off the end and somehow put a nick in the disk :eek:..... get phone call.....fix hole in hand.:(... etc. etc. I would have to say between 3 and 4 hours for a 12' rail. That would probably go faster but my Harborfreight grinder is a little under powered. For $15 what can you expect. It's what I had and couldn't justify buying a new one just for this project. I also used the Harborfreight grinding disks (bad idea). They do wear very fast so I've had to keep an eye on the edge. I used one disk (+1 before damage) to take the edge off both 12' rails and get them close then used a new disk to dress the edges.

The skate works great. Just have to remember that there is no guard on the back side.:D


I was wondering if you had done your rails yet or not. I'm looking forward to seeing more pics from you. How are your electronics going?

Gerald D
Wed 24 October 2007, 23:32
They look gorgeous. How long did they take per angle iron?

Less time than most of us are spending on procrastinating ;)

Doug_Ford
Thu 25 October 2007, 11:15
I have an old Bridgeport vertical mill in my garage so I used it to make the rails. Unfortunately, it is pretty much worn out so I was only able to mill a 12 inch length of rail at one time and stay within .001". My mill makes a dandy drill press but milling with any accuracy is almost impossible. I'm not particularly happy with the results because I can hear the wheels clicking on the transitions where I started and stopped the milling. It obviously didn't hold .001" like I thought. Once the details for the skate get worked out, I think I'll probably make another set.

Gerald D
Thu 25 October 2007, 11:41
Doug, suggest you use your milled rails now, but first to grind just the top flat face for a reference. You can grind your milled rails in-situ (if you havn't cut them short to length yet). However, I am willing to wager that re-grinding your milled rails are going to become a very low priority.

On our milled rails, we also had the tiny "defects" where the milling cutter was reset. A little draw-filing cleaned off those marks. Realise that only one out of 4 gantry/car wheels is likely to hit a "glitch" at any one time - the result at the cutter is pretty un-spectacular.

Doug_Ford
Thu 25 October 2007, 20:44
Greald,

My first priority is to get it running and cut something. Then I'll check to see if the glitches cause flaws in my workpieces. If they don't, I'll probably live with the rails as they are. Unfortunately, I've got a perfectionist obsessive/compulsive streak which may cause me to replace them just because they aren't pretty enough.:o

gmessler
Thu 25 October 2007, 22:22
The rails are finally complete! :)
I'm so glad that is over with. Black grinding dust all over everything. :(
Probably should have cleaned up the oil from the tapping before grinding. Now I have a terrible mess on the floor.
I'll post some progress pics tomorrow. I also have a short video of the grinding. When I get a chance I'll upload it to youtube.

While I was grinding I kept thinking that there has got to be a better way.

Too bad your mill didn't work so well for you Doug. You must have access to 3ph power. All the mills I've seen seem to require it. I hope the filing like Gerald mentioned works out for you.

Gerald D
Thu 25 October 2007, 23:05
Greg, in your pic above, is that screw sitting in the right place? It looks too far to the right?

Grinding is dirty work - best to do it outside.

gmessler
Fri 26 October 2007, 00:11
Hi Gerald

oops :o I was afraid you'd catch that. Yes it is. I made a mistake with the width of the x channels. I assumed (ouch) :eek: that they would be the width of the cross bearers. I found the mistake after I had already assembled the entire base and attached one of the rails and compared it against the width of the gantry. Because the gantry was already built the only thing I could do without rebuilding the table (lots of steel) or gantry (lasered parts) was to push the rails further out. Since I had already drilled the rail and did not want to fill the holes with weld I just moved the holes on the channel a little further out. I'll now have about 11mm between the inside of the rack and the x channel. I hope that's not too much.

I'm sure if you caught that you are probably wondering how I had ground the rails with the bolts in the way. The bolts do get in the way so I tac welded the rails to the channel. The pic shown is after the two x rails were ground cut and attached to the base. I did put the gantry (with bearings) down on the rails. I was curious if my gantry was twisted. It was not. Sigh of relief. It's amazing how smooth (even without indexing the rails) the gantry rides on the rails. One slight push and it floats from one end to the other. I can't wait until I get it dialed in.

Thanks for your input Gerald. Your attention to detail is incredible! Send some of that my way would you?

Best

Greg

Gerald D
Fri 26 October 2007, 00:51
But then that screw in the pic should have been more to the left? Anyway, your feedback (anybody's feedback) on mistakes made is very useful so that I can add notes to the drawings and save others the headache.

In this case, the note at top right on drawing 10 10 300 W must be made much more eye-catching. If I were doing a CofC* exercise on that drawing, that note would have the highest rating (critical), second highest rating would go to the 100mm[3.9"] offset.

*CofC: Classification of Characteristics : DOD-STD-2101 (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rls=IRFA%2CIRFA%3A2006-24%2CIRFA%3Aen&q=DOD-STD-2101)

Gerald D
Fri 26 October 2007, 01:17
See posts 9 -19 of Fabrica's thread
http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310

You can kick me now for not making the drawing clearer then! :o

Doug_Ford
Fri 26 October 2007, 09:03
Greg,

To run my mill and lathe, I use a VFD that has single phase power input and three phase output.

The lathe was also pretty worn and the hydraulic speed adjustment for the spindle was shot. I only paid $500 and also got lots of tooling. Prices for original parts from the factory were sky high so I fabricated some pieces in my machine shop classes at night to get it running. Now, mechanically speaking, it only has two speeds. The beauty of the VFD is that I can control the frequency of the electricity, so once again, I have a very broad range of spindle speeds available to me.

gmessler
Fri 26 October 2007, 09:25
Hi Gerald,

After finding my error I searched the drawings. Not sure how I missed that because it took me some time to find the 3.9" offset and that's on the same page and point of assembly. I did remember your comment to Fabrica unfortunately after I made the mistake. I even remembered the picture as I sat there scratching my head. Everything's there if you just read!:D

As for the bolt placement, I left the bolt there because I had already drilled the hole to 1/2". The old hole in the channel would be covered by the new rail location so no extra work (other than new holes in the channel) was needed.

Now in hindsight I think I should have filled those holes and re-drilled the rails. My reason for this is because of leverage. I did sit on the gantry as my wife rolled me back and forth while I watched the rails and there didn't seem to be any problems. What about long term though?

Thanks for your help and comments Gerald.

smreish
Fri 26 October 2007, 09:29
Greg,
I missed the 3.9" offset myself until Gerald caught it on my drawings....It was clear as day on the drawing, but somehow I was just to anxious to pay attention. I now have a highlighter and mark every page dimension that is critical! Sean

gmessler
Fri 26 October 2007, 09:46
Hey Doug,

Machine shop classes.....hmmm. Something I should have considered before starting this project! I should still probably keep that in mind. When I began ordering the parts for my kitchen table project I thought that this project would probably run similar to my laser. But as I got further in I realized this is much more complicated. My laser is a 45w co2 with a 24x12 table. The software I use to run it is Corel. Just about any drawing program can run it. No Cad or Cam programs needed. It interfaces to the computer with a printer driver. A few changes in the config of the printer and you're all set.

I'm hoping that I'll be able to export many of my "drawings" from corel and not have to re-make them in a Cad program. There is an export to .dxf function in Corel but I haven't worked with interfacing that to a Cam program yet.

I didn't realise you can use a VFD to drive other equipment besides a spindle. That's pretty cool. My original plan was to install a spindle. After Gerald's recommendation ..... I'll just use a router until I learn the machine.

gmessler
Fri 26 October 2007, 09:55
Sean,

It's not too hard to get anxious working on a project like this.:D

Like they say measure twice cut once!

Gerald D
Fri 26 October 2007, 10:20
Let's modify that saying: Read thrice, measure twice, cut once. :)

A hint: Putting dimensions on a CAD drawing is darn easy. Putting words next to the dimensions is a lot of work. If you see words near the dimensions, wonder why I spent the trouble to put them there . . . . .

gmessler
Fri 26 October 2007, 10:41
Well said Gerald!!!:o

I've posted a video on youtube showing me grinding one of the rails.

I'm a little nervous showing this to Gerald as his keen eye is capable of spotting fly sh*& out of spilled pepper.:):) Attention to detail is something we could all benefit from.:)

Search Mechmate, there are only 7 videos. It's the rail grinding one.

Gerald D
Fri 26 October 2007, 10:51
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0RN_C-iosU

What dance music should one play for this? :)

Great video!

(Gloves recommended)

Marc Shlaes
Fri 26 October 2007, 11:20
Thanks Greg. Keep up the good work!

Bill McGuire
Fri 26 October 2007, 16:06
Looks kinda like a ballet movement in double speed...

Greg... you make it look easy... thanks for the inspiration...

Greg J
Sat 27 October 2007, 06:44
Greg,

Thanks for video and nice work.

I'm finishing up the spring loaded wheels for my new gantry crane today and then on to the skate.

I just have to sand blast and re-assemble the skate. Cut down my angles and grind rails tomorrow.

gmessler
Sat 27 October 2007, 09:23
Thanks everybody:)

Still have to figure out what music for my "it's finished" dance.

gmessler
Fri 09 November 2007, 21:22
Hello Gerald,

Just got back to work on the machine today. I'm working on the y rails and their attachment to the gantry. I marked my rails at 1.81" per the drawing however when I place that line along the centerline of the gantry tube it seems as though the rail hangs way to far out. I thought I'd check out J.R's machine to see what it looked like. To me it looks like his holes in his gantry tubes are closer to the inside. :confused:

What amount of clearance should there be between the back side of the rack and the gantry tube?

By the way I welded up my Y car and it turned out just fine. I used a couple of pieces of aluminum, clamped them to the sides to cover the gap, then welded into the hole just like all the others. when I removed the aluminum the weld took on the same shape as the original tab only longer. Afterward I put a slight filet weld on the inside no longer than the tab as you instructed. :) I'll probably use the caulk to fill the gap so it should look fine when painted. :)

Gerald D
Fri 09 November 2007, 23:20
What amount of clearance should there be between the back side of the rack and the gantry tube?

More than what you might think! :)

Seriously. I left quite a big gap for the guys who can't weld their tables straight, or for people with odd sized tubes, etc. But, I don't want to advertise it - it lets me sleep at night ;)

Don't try to reduce the gap. If you do this you will pull the pinion gear off the shaft of the stepper motor. Remember that the width across the pair of motors is rigidly fixed.

I will look for a full-size cross-section for you later today.

Gerald D
Sat 10 November 2007, 10:17
When you print the attached, make sure that your printer is not applying any "scaling" to try and fill the paper page - it should print you a pic with the rect. tube 50 x 100 mm [1.97" x 3.94"] the rack in that pic is 16 x 16mm which is the max metric size.

gmessler
Sat 10 November 2007, 10:32
Thanks Gerald !!:)

That is what it looked like. It just looked strange at first. Now I understand the thought process and it makes sense now. I'll drive on. Off to start tapping those holes.

Hope you feel better.

Greg

gmessler
Sun 18 November 2007, 18:29
Hi everyone,

I've made some progress on my machine.:) Not as much as Fabio, Doug, or Sean (great job guys!). I took a few photos before I left town for the weekend. Unfortunately I was in a hurry and didn't get quality shots. I'll try to take more this week. Gerald, as you predicted the y rails turned out just fine.
In looking for a good vendor for the teflon washers I ended up at a vendor someone suggested on this forum, www.Fastenal.com. Great service / selection / price and they had a store about 15 min from my house. They also had the 12mm jam nuts and shim washers I needed.

I still have to order up the items needed to make my z assembly.



Glad to hear you're still around Greg J.

Doug_Ford
Sun 18 November 2007, 18:56
Looking great Greg. Feels good doesn't it?

gmessler
Sun 18 November 2007, 19:20
Thanks Doug, Yes it does feel good....but the anticipation of completing the project is killing me!!:D

Gerald,

I can see your concern now regarding the placement of the bolts on the x rails. The car stoppers will just barely miss the bolts.:eek: I still need to attach my stop blocks on both axis' though

Something for everyone to keep in mind. An unintentional change or mistake in one dimension can alter the geometries of many other parts. "The butterfly effect".

smreish
Sun 18 November 2007, 20:23
Greg,
Nice to see your boat in the basement project getting done! Nice work. It looks like your almost ready to start cutting soon. I like the look of you rack on the gantry. Is that rack from McMaster or another supplier?
Sean

gmessler
Sun 18 November 2007, 21:11
Hi Sean,

Late night Mechmate surfin? :)

I'm getting close...but the thing that worries me is grinding the z plate. I still have to order it. I had considered doing the table saw thing. I'm just a little concerned about the whole grinding dust/bearing issue but I can't think of a better low cost option.

I got my racks from http://www.stdsteel.com/gr_stock.htm
they were $28.8 each and only $24 for shipping. I made the mistake of ordering 6 racks and only needed 5 so that probably inflated my shipping. McMasters price for the same rack was $40.60. I still have to figure out what to do with the last rack. Maybe ebay....maybe offer it up on the forum...(offer it to Gerald for free if he tells me who in the states to send it to for his 3rd machine!!). When I ordered my din rail I also ended up ordering up about 12' too much. I thought about offering it to the Mechmate builders for free and only ask for shipping costs. I'm not sure if that will work or not. Postage for sending out an 18-36" piece of din rail might be more than the cost that people can get their din rail for.

Happy Mechmating!!:D

Gerald D
Sun 18 November 2007, 23:02
A nice chunk of steel! This makes me itch to get started with No. 3 :)

Thanks for the rack offer Greg, but you probably use that nasty inch stuff - I can get the metric stuff here quite economically.

Greg J
Mon 19 November 2007, 06:20
Looking Good and thanks for the pic's Greg,

Hopefully I can have some rails in a couple of weeks, then I can post some pictures.

One of the interesting aspects of this project is the local interest in my MechMate. People are amazed that this is not a hobby machine. My favorite saying when someone sees it in the shop for the first time is "ooh, that is quite large" or "very substantial".

This machine is designed for work! (not that you can't have fun with it also) :)

domino11
Mon 19 November 2007, 06:49
Greg,
Nice work on your machine. Keep the pics coming. They inspire the rest of us. :)

Gerald,
How many machines are you planning on building? Do you have a link to your machine for sale?

Gerald D
Mon 19 November 2007, 10:36
Heath, I am only going to build one MM. The machine for sale is the original ShopBot, but I think that Sean actually did sell it today.

gmessler
Mon 19 November 2007, 11:00
Darn inch people :rolleyes:

hflwaterski
Mon 19 November 2007, 11:17
Greg,

I north of you near Milwaukee. I would be interested in your spare rack. I'm building the table this spring and I'm accumulating parts for now.

Thanks,
Herb

zetacnc
Mon 19 November 2007, 13:49
Greg,

Is looking very good!

Keep working!

edco78
Wed 05 December 2007, 15:25
I noticed in post #47 you had to fill in a gap in a joint. When I was a welder in a steel foundry, I used a chunk (piece) of graphite as a backer on the back side of a hole or gap, and welded the front side to fill it in. It doesn't blow through. The graphite will not stick to the steel. Thought this might help the readers out there.

Doug_Ford
Wed 05 December 2007, 17:14
Cool. Thanks Gerald. I heard you could use copper but graphic has to be cheaper these days.

Gerald D
Wed 05 December 2007, 22:14
Welcome Gerald - hope to see more of you around.

You guys are far too exotic - we use aluminium for this. But you have to spell it right. :)

domino11
Thu 06 December 2007, 08:38
Gerald, Gerald and Doug,
Yeah I have used copper as a backer to fill in welds, but unfortunately I don't usually have graphite around my shop! :eek: I have never thought of using aluminium, is that the same as aluminum? :) Must be the same just different continent. :rolleyes:

J.R. Hatcher
Mon 24 December 2007, 07:32
Greg, I know I'm a little late with this post but.... I used full nuts behind the guide rollers everywhere instead of half nuts, therefore my racks are bottomed out in some places. I will now go back and turn these nuts down a little in thickness (maybe 1/16"). This will allow the rails with racks to be moved out a little making the rail adjustment better.

Hello Gerald,

Just got back to work on the machine today. I'm working on the y rails and their attachment to the gantry. I marked my rails at 1.81" per the drawing however when I place that line along the centerline of the gantry tube it seems as though the rail hangs way to far out. I thought I'd check out J.R's machine to see what it looked like. To me it looks like his holes in his gantry tubes are closer to the inside. :confused:

What amount of clearance should there be between the back side of the rack and the gantry tube?

By the way I welded up my Y car and it turned out just fine. I used a couple of pieces of aluminum, clamped them to the sides to cover the gap, then welded into the hole just like all the others. when I removed the aluminum the weld took on the same shape as the original tab only longer. Afterward I put a slight filet weld on the inside no longer than the tab as you instructed. :) I'll probably use the caulk to fill the gap so it should look fine when painted. :)

gmessler
Wed 26 December 2007, 14:17
Thanks J.R.

Glad to have you back. :) I used half nuts from http://www.Fastenal.com. That might save you the time and aggravation of turning your own down. I wish I had time to get back to work on my machine. For now I guess I'll have to satisfy my MM craving by watching others build theirs.:D

sailfl
Wed 26 December 2007, 16:19
Greg, I think I know what a half nut is but when you go to the website and type in half nut, the search doesn't understand. Can you provide a part # or a better link. Thanks

garyc
Wed 26 December 2007, 16:58
They are probably talking about jam nuts, They are about half the thickness of regular nuts

smreish
Wed 26 December 2007, 17:21
The correct fastener nomenclature is jam nut...or hex jam nut. So, if you were to order say a Stainless Steel 1/2" threaded jam nut with course thread you would ask for a SS 1/2-13 UNC hex jam nut. A great book to pick up when your at your local ACE or True Value hardware store is a small book called the pocket reference guide. Very helpful in everything you do from ordering hardware to booking an airline ticket. Sean

gmessler
Thu 18 September 2008, 22:19
My bad. Jam nut it is.:D

Hello everyone. Sorry to be gone for so long.

Had a little free time so I tried to pick up where I left off on the beast.

So many changes and so many beautiful running machines. SOOOO many new posts to catch up on.:eek:

I started working on the cable chains and chain mounts. For the gantry extension I used a section of wire shelving. For support between the angle brackets I used angle iron. Probably overkill but at least it won't bend.

After reading all the comments on grinding the z plate I made the decision to take the plate to a knife grinder. They did a great job for only $40. Plus I don't have to worry about the bearings in my table saw.

Sorry no pics for now. :(

Doug_Ford
Fri 19 September 2008, 20:09
Welcome back bubba. I was wondering what happened to you.

gmessler
Sat 20 September 2008, 19:26
Thanks Doug,

My job keeps me on the road most of the time :( but it's great to be welcomed back. :)

Gerald D
Sat 20 September 2008, 21:42
Good to have the original Raildancer back! :D

gmessler
Sat 20 September 2008, 22:16
LOL :p

gmessler
Mon 22 September 2008, 22:29
Here are some pics of the unfinished cable chains on this Classic style Mechmate.:)

2174

2175

2176

2177

Gerald D
Tue 23 September 2008, 02:11
Good stuff Greg!

Those are nice trays/ladders you found there.

sailfl
Tue 23 September 2008, 03:16
I like you cable chain setup also.

javeria
Tue 23 September 2008, 04:53
me too, the cable chain - nice idea - and looks neat too!

gmessler
Thu 25 September 2008, 23:07
Thanks Guys!

Got the chance to work on the machine tonight for a few hours.:)

I decided to work on the z assembly.

I made my 4 support bushings (classic design:() I picked up a small metal lathe a couple of months ago. It came in handy for making the bushings. I have a lot to learn but they turned out ok. Wish I had it while I was making my skate.


welded the motor plate and bearing nuts to the spider plate. drilled, tapped, and counter sunk the slide plate/slide tube. I was a little disappointed because while I was counter sinking the plate, the limit lock on my drill press slipped and I over counter sunk one of the holes. :mad:

I got the rack cut and drilled but I don't have a bottoming? tap. Off to the tool store.:D

Got the Stub axle plate made drilled and tapped. I'll give the lathe a workout tomorrow and make the axle. I'll have to counter sink the bolts because I put the cable chain too close and the bolts hit it.:(

Sorry, no pics again. I'll get something together tomorrow.

That's all for now.

domino11
Fri 26 September 2008, 07:45
Greg,
Looks more like a fairly big metal lathe. :)

J.R. Hatcher
Fri 26 September 2008, 08:36
Greg, a few suggestions.
"I was a little disappointed because while I was counter sinking the plate, the limit lock on my drill press slipped and I over counter sunk one of the holes. :mad:" Weld up the screwed up one and re countersink it. Trust me this works :o. Been there done that.....

"I'll have to counter sink the bolts because I put the cable chain too close and the bolts hit it.:(" Would it work to cut the head of the bolt down in height with the lathe?

gmessler
Fri 26 September 2008, 08:45
Hi J.R.

Thanks for the suggestions.

On the bolts, because the plate is so close, it would be easier to just counter sink.

On the plate....great suggestion which I may try but my welding is pretty bad.:o Do you think there would be any issues with the heat in the plate? I'm just using regular steel, not the nice tool grade stuff suggested.

I'll try to post some pics today.

J.R. Hatcher
Fri 26 September 2008, 09:26
Greg I don't think it would be a problem. Try laying the plate on a soaking wet rag while welding, this will keep it cooler around the area of the weld.

gmessler
Fri 26 September 2008, 16:47
I tried different bolts in the stub axle plate. It's close but it may be ok. I've included a pic of the plate bolted (without teflon washer) up against the y car.

Here is a pic of the slide plate with the over counter sunk screw.

Here's a pic of the stub for the axle plate and the bearing support base. I had ordered an extra v bearing to use for this but I'm not sure it's going to work.

More later.....

Gerald D
Fri 26 September 2008, 22:00
For the over-countersunk, a copper washer might do the trick, if you can find one. It should be soft enough to deform and fill the gap.

There seems to be multiple issue with the hold-down roller, but I have to take the missus a 6am cup of coffee now. More later . . . . .

Gerald D
Sat 27 September 2008, 00:39
First get a suitable sealed ball bearing that will roll under the angle iron of the rail. It is supposed to be a 6304.2RSR, but that is not critical. A V-Roller is the wrong thing in this application, to roll under the flat part of the rail. Two things to check when finding the right bearing:
1. It must be narrow enough to miss the screw heads you used for the cable chain brackets where they are screwed into the side of the gantry. (Or you need to move those screws lower down and shorten the brackets).
2. The outer diameter must be big enough (and the ID small enough) so that the stubshaft will miss the underside of the Y-car. It has been know to grind notches in the shaft and/or y-car to get the clearance.

Then you have the smaller problem of the screws touching the plastic cable chain. You could countersink the screws, or you can dump the screws and weld it together. You could even cut away the bottom section of the bearing support base plate before welding it together.

Gerald D
Sat 27 September 2008, 02:41
On the over-countersunk of the z-slide plate, you could use longer screws to reach the other side of the rectangular tube. Or even longer and fit nuts on the other side of the tube.

gmessler
Sat 27 September 2008, 08:53
Thanks Gerald,

I was afraid you were going to say the bearing wouldn't work.:o After your message last night I figured you had seen something I didn't so I took a look at things again. Under the Y car to see how the bearing was riding. The one side of the "v" just barely made it on the rail. By the time I add the teflon washers it may not touch at all.

I think I'll give the copper washer trick a try. If it doesn't work I'll probably go with J.R.'s suggestion.

Greg J
Sat 27 September 2008, 09:20
Greg,

I had the same issue with the bolt heads touching the cable chain.

I welded the plate to the pivot plate (forgot proper name) in strategic locations (so it's easy to remove with grinder). My bearing shaft is attached with a "V" head bolt and counter sunk on the outside of the plate.

gmessler
Wed 15 October 2008, 20:44
I've decided to hold off on this part until I get most everything painted.

I can only paint outside and with the weather getting colder I'm limited on time.

gmessler
Thu 16 October 2008, 20:26
Got my paint booth all set up.

Thanks for the idea J.R. :D

gmessler
Thu 16 October 2008, 20:43
I decided the best way to handle the scale removal was brute force.

The parts turned out great. Can't wait to paint.:)

All I needed after I was finished was a few palm trees and some surf maybe a beach ball or two.....or a Corona and a lounge chair.:D

Gerald D
Thu 16 October 2008, 21:00
Good grief! That's the first grit blasting that I have seen under a gazebo! :D

Kobus_Joubert
Thu 16 October 2008, 22:25
looks like snow, please check the weather :D

domino11
Fri 17 October 2008, 06:34
Greg,
Looks great! But we dont even have snow up here in Canada yet. :eek:

Doug_Ford
Fri 17 October 2008, 18:19
Your paint is going to adhere well now too. Beautiful work.

sailfl
Sat 18 October 2008, 03:01
You don't have to worry about grease. Looks great.

Gerald D
Sat 18 October 2008, 03:48
Nils, you would be surprised at how much grease there is on steel and how it affects paint adhesion. Clean steel rusts within 30 minutes. If you don't see rust on steel, then it isn't clean! :)

gmessler
Sat 18 October 2008, 08:23
Thanks for all the kudos!!:)


Gerald,

You're right about the grease. I spent the previous day de-greasing the parts. If you don't get all the grease off... the sandblasting just pushes the grease deeper into the steel and it's harder to get the paint to stick without fisheyes.

Of course cleaning all that sand up was not an easy task either. Sand dust everywhere...even inside the closed up house....neighbors houses....cars down the street.:eek: read: unhappy wife and neighbors

What a nice finish to paint on though. Originally I was going to use auto paint. But at $100+ per gallon I decided on the $24 Rustoleum professional high performance paint. All the priming was done with rustoleum matching primer.

Getting ready for paint TODAY!! :D just waiting for the temp to come up.

Kobus_Joubert
Sun 19 October 2008, 00:37
Do you own that gridblasting equipment or did you rent it for the day. Must have being a monster of a compressor

gmessler
Sun 19 October 2008, 10:10
Hi Kobus,

I rented that compressor and sandblaster for $120 USD for 4 hours. The rental shop is less than a mile from my house so 4 hours was enough time. Here are some pics of both. :)

YRD
Sun 19 October 2008, 13:59
Global Warming. Snow ahead of time

Robert M
Sun 19 October 2008, 14:50
Yuri....snow in brazil :confused:
Mother nature is is more then ever in serious need of our help then :eek: !!
Were I’m from we don’t call this snow... it’s consider as simple morning frost :D

YRD
Sun 19 October 2008, 15:14
No. Not yet. :rolleyes:

We're on the other side of the Earth. Our time is the opposite to his. It's almost summer.

We will sell carbon credits.:D

His work is very good.:)

Kobus_Joubert
Sun 19 October 2008, 22:44
Just think if you did this mess in 4 hours what could have happened if you rented it for 24 hours

Gerald D
Sun 19 October 2008, 23:18
That poor car parked to the left of the gazebo.....Hoped you havn't rolled down the windows or operated the wipers before getting all the grit off. The glass could be permanently scored. Same goes for other stuff that is supposed to slide. Patio doors and windows, etc.

domino11
Mon 20 October 2008, 06:33
Yes,
Sandblasting is nasty nasty nasty stuff. Gets in everything. :eek:

gmessler
Mon 20 October 2008, 09:26
The car is a project car that when someday I become rich:rolleyes: I will restore. Possibly beginning with (yuk) sandblasting.

Not looking forward to that nasty white stuff our Maple Leaf friends refer to as "frost":p Prepare a room Yuri I need to get away from this stuff.
:D

Here are some pics of the priming and painting. Not as colorful as Yuri's primer.
:)

Marc Shlaes
Mon 20 October 2008, 10:27
Nice color!

Greg J
Mon 20 October 2008, 19:34
Greg,

Nice paint booth and setup. Oh, and the work on the MM also. :)

Kobus_Joubert
Mon 20 October 2008, 22:29
That gazebo is strong. The ones we buy over here has thin little poles and a MM will not be able to hang on it while painting. Nice going GregM :cool:

gmessler
Mon 20 October 2008, 23:48
While preping my rails for paint I remembered a problem I had with one of the rails. After cutting the rail down I noticed it was warped pretty bad (cheap steel):(. Running a line from one end to the other, there was about .625 inch gap in the middle. Sorry, no photos but I've included a drawing (not to scale).

Remembering what a wise man told me once about using a welder to straighten warped steel;)
http://mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5192&postcount=6

I ran beads of weld centered between the holes from the outside to the inside(shown as dark lines in the drawing) starting in the middle of the rail and working to the ends alternating sides.

The angle straightend right up to within .040 inch (darn inch people):D


Tomorrow I'll grind the welds down and paint.

I hope this helps anyone who might have ended up with warped material.


Greg J. Glad you got your issue figured out:)
Robert, sorry for the brain fart...spelled leaf wrong

gmessler
Wed 05 November 2008, 18:33
It's been slow moving but more progress.

Problem is I need the machine NOW for a project I'm working on. :)

gmessler
Fri 07 November 2008, 09:30
In my last post I showed the table assembled but it was only put together with temporary bolts because I forgot to order the beveled washers.:(
When I got the washers I found that they fit great on the large channel but they were a little long for the 3" channel so I had to trim the small end a little.
2529

2530

Greg J
Fri 07 November 2008, 17:39
Greg,

Wow, painting the beveled washers also...... :p

Just yanking your chain guy.

I haven't checked out your thread in awhile, but it's looking good. :cool:

gmessler
Fri 07 November 2008, 20:47
Thanks Greg,

Can't compete with all these other great looking machines though.;)

gmessler
Fri 07 November 2008, 21:06
I have a question about the holes for the prox sensors.

First off I never drilled the holes so that has to be done before I can go any further.:o

As I was looking at the drawings "classic style" a thought came to mind.
On the x rails there is no problem with bearings but on the y rails there seems to be, at least as far as the hold down roller goes. If there are holes in that rail won't the hold down bearing drop into the hole?:confused:

Any help would be appreciated.

Gerald D
Fri 07 November 2008, 22:22
The holddown bearing runs near the edge of the angle iron - only a small part of the roller could get over the hole . . . that is only when you are at the limit of travel (when you hit the end-stops).

gmessler
Sat 08 November 2008, 07:11
Thanks Gerald:)

gmessler
Mon 10 November 2008, 09:25
Does this count for dust on the machine?:D

domino11
Mon 10 November 2008, 09:34
Greg,
But did the machine make the dust? The telltale jigsaw should be removed from the picture. :rolleyes::)

Gerald D
Mon 10 November 2008, 09:41
:(:mad::p:rolleyes:

javeria
Mon 10 November 2008, 09:47
Greg U got G' this time -

domino11
Mon 10 November 2008, 13:19
Sorry Greg,
Couldnt resist the temptation. :):eek:

gmessler
Mon 10 November 2008, 14:18
No problem Heath. :)

Things were a little slow on the forum lately so I thought I'd stir the pot a little.:D

I wish it were the machine making that dust. I cursed myself the whole time for not having the machine finished. Hand cutting an entire 4x8 sheet full of small parts. Guess it will help put a little fire under my backside.

Kobus_Joubert
Mon 10 November 2008, 21:29
At least the table is working....just like mine..:)

sailfl
Tue 11 November 2008, 01:24
Greg M

You might have gotten away with it if you had used a router instead of the jig saw. Gerald might have missed it.

Gerald D
Tue 11 November 2008, 03:11
Nah, the sawdust shouldn't only be on one end of the table and the off-cuts should be joined together. :p

gmessler
Tue 25 November 2008, 23:01
I had a chance to get a little work done the past several nights.

I got the table level and square. Drilled and countersunk the bolts holding down the MDF. Installed the cable chains.

Alan_c
Wed 26 November 2008, 00:21
Nice!, interesting tables and kit in the background too :)

domino11
Wed 26 November 2008, 07:36
Greg,
OOOOH, nice projector! That will make a really nice movie room. :eek:

The Mechmate is looking good too! :)

gmessler
Wed 26 November 2008, 09:25
Thanks Alan & Heath,

hmmm www.allen-heath.com....nice mixing consoles (sorry about the bad humor)

Too bad the projector is for a customer. :(

The carts are a design I patented earlier this year. They are the first six, almost ready to be delivered to a customer.:) The bases are what I cut out BY HAND :mad: in my first sawdust photos.

gmessler
Wed 26 November 2008, 09:56
I think it's funny the way the title to the threads change as progress is made.:D

Forgot to paint the control box while it was warm. It's warmer today at 40 degrees so I may fire up the heater in the tent and paint. The alternative....overspray all over everything in the garage.


Shooting for "12"

domino11
Wed 26 November 2008, 12:29
Alan,
Looks like our little secret is out. :eek: I wish I owned a company like that one. :)

Greg,
I understand your dilema with the cold, its about 37 today and going down to 30 tonight. Gets harder and harder to do stuff if your garage is unheated.:(

gmessler
Mon 01 December 2008, 01:05
Made some progress again today.:)

Pulled the control and prox wires, motor wires, attached the motors, mounted the button boxes, and mounted the control box to the machine. I know it's not the best location to mount the control box. With the limited space in my garage it's the best I can do.
:)

I still need to pull a router power wire. I haven't purchased it yet. I'm sure 12ga would be best but I can get 14ga for real cheap. What are your thoughts?

J.R. Hatcher
Mon 01 December 2008, 06:02
Greg I found the cheapest way to buy wire like that is to buy a good grade of drop cord from Lowe's, When I cut the ends off I don't need I leave a 2' pigtail for some later project. It's cheaper than buying the bulk wire.

domino11
Mon 01 December 2008, 08:56
Greg,
You can use the 14 Gauge wire where you have space or flex issues (or have a cheap cord available) and use #12 for the longer runs from machine to panel. At the current the router uses, the overall length and gauge of the wire will be the determining factor in the voltage drop. Dont forget the lines in your shop are probably still #14 unless you are running a dedicated circuit for it. Then use a larger gauge wire for the machine like #12. :)

gmessler
Thu 04 December 2008, 10:24
Thanks J.R. and Heath,

Actually I found some shielded 12ga cable for cheap. It should be here Friday.

Here are some pics of work in process.

Gerald D
Thu 04 December 2008, 10:32
Looks good Greg!

I suppose your wife is pushing you to cut some yard ornaments for Xmas? :D

YRD
Thu 04 December 2008, 11:06
Fantastic :cool:

jhiggins7
Thu 04 December 2008, 16:40
Greg,


Thanks J.R. and Heath,

Actually I found some shielded 12ga cable for cheap. It should be here Friday...

Would you mind sharing your source for the "shielded 12 ga cable for cheap?"

Regards,
John

smreish
Thu 04 December 2008, 19:12
Greg,
Getting close....very close! Are you expecting a MM for xmas? :D

gmessler
Thu 04 December 2008, 23:17
Thanks guys,:)

Sean, I'm hoping to be cutting by next weekend on a bouncing baby "number 12" Mechmate.:D

John, I'll have to let you know about the cable. My source is a great resource that Sean posted quite a while back, Skycraftsurplus.com. It's a Milspec cable at .35/ft but I'm not sure how flexible it's going to be. It should arrive Friday sometime. I did find some 14ga shielded on ebay. The jacket is not very flexible though I think it would work in a pinch. It was only $8 / 25'.


I'm having some trouble with understanding the e-stop / stop / start button wiring though.:confused:

Using two wires for each of the buttons works out fine with one wire left over in the 7 conductor cable. Although I've been reading that some changes have been made and it is recommended to run two circuits to the e-stop. One 120v to break the contactor and a low voltage one to the breakout board. My concern is that you'd be running a 120v circuit inside the same cable as the low voltage circuit. Plus I'd be one wire short then.:eek:

I'm curious what others have done.

Any recommendations would be appreciated.:)

gmessler
Thu 04 December 2008, 23:21
Hey J.R.,

I took your recommendation and gave it a shot tonight welding up that countersunk hole in the Z-slide. It worked out fair.

I'll post some pics tomorrow.

Gerald D
Fri 05 December 2008, 00:41
. . . My concern is that you'd be running a 120v circuit inside the same cable as the low voltage circuit.

You must definitely NOT run the 120V inside the same cable as the signals. The 120V e-stop circuit sits in a cable all by itself, exactly for the reason that it will generate noise.

jhiggins7
Fri 05 December 2008, 05:17
Greg,

Thanks for the response.

...
John, I'll have to let you know about the cable. My source is a great resource that Sean posted quite a while back, Skycraftsurplus.com. It's a Milspec cable at .35/ft but I'm not sure how flexible it's going to be. It should arrive Friday sometime. ...

So, I will await your conclusions about the flexibility of the 12 ga. I'm probably a couple of months away from needing that cable.

I was aware of the Ebay shielded 14 ga. I bought 100' of that supplier's dual shielded 4 conductor for the stepper motor runs based on JR's experience. I would prefer to run 12 ga for the router. My shop is wired with 12 ga, and I'd rather not drop down to 14 ga, although that is an option. Flexibility and cost figure into this decision.

Regards,
John

gmessler
Sat 06 December 2008, 00:40
Sorry guys...no pics yet.

I spent the last ??? hours working on my wiring diagram.:eek:

Now I'll submit myself to the mercy of the experts and attach my drawing. Actually a reworked version of Gerald's work...Thanks Gerald. :D

If anybody can find any errors please let me know.

Be gentle:p

bradm
Sat 06 December 2008, 08:11
I see that the 12V DC supply at the bottom for your LV EStop is powered all the time, rather than switched by the contactor. Is there a reason for that?

Gerald D
Sat 06 December 2008, 08:25
Mains E-stop must not share cable with 5V signals:

2885

Gerald D
Sat 06 December 2008, 08:29
The leftmost two wires in my diagram need to be swapped. The very left wire is the common for all the pushbuttons, ie. ground. But, if you trace it up to the PMDX, it goes to the dedicated e-stop input.

gmessler
Sat 06 December 2008, 10:10
Thanks for your help Gerald,:)

The mains e-stop is only 12v dc. Will that cause problems with the 5v circuits having it in the same cable? I could eliminate one of the prox sensors (don't think the z is that important) and run it in that cable.

Good catch on the e-stop / common swap. It was the last thing I finished up at 1am before I submitted the pic. I'll make that change.:)

Brad,

The transformer is only powered when the mains switch is turned on. It can't be powered by the contactor because it's powers a "NO" relay that the ON/OFF circuit goes through. Kind of a catch 22 - can't turn the power on until the relay is energized but can't energize the relay until the power is turned on. That's why I powered it after the mains switch so it can still be turned off.:)

domino11
Sat 06 December 2008, 10:14
The mains e-stop is only 12v dc. Will that cause problems with the 5v circuits having it in the same cable?

Greg,
That will not cause any problems. AC signals are the ones that radiate a lot of noise. The shielding on the dc signals is only to keep the ac noise out. Shielding on the ac lines help keep their noise in. :)

bradm
Sat 06 December 2008, 10:30
Greg, my reading of your diagram is that the estop transformer is NOT part of the "start drives" circuit, and thus could be powered by the contactor, since the contactor is triggered by the start drives circuit, thus energizing the estop transformer as well as the rest of the "stop drives" circuit. No catch-22 ;-)

Gerald D
Sat 06 December 2008, 11:29
Sorry Greg, I didn't look at the 12V stuff. Yes, 12VDC in that cable will be okay.

gmessler
Sat 06 December 2008, 11:30
Brad,

Sometimes one can't see the forrest through the trees.:p

I went back and looked at the drawing and told myself he must be crazy..:confused:..and as I repeated your words while running my finger over the diagram it hit me.:eek::o

Thanks......

Heath,

I'm wondering if the second e-stop circuit should be in a different cable anyway. I'm probably waaaaay over thinking this one but suppose the hv e-stop ground were to short to the lv e-stop + very early in the cable (before any of the buttons). As far as the pmdx were concerned everything would be okay. But when you hit a stop button nothing would happen.:eek:

bradm
Sat 06 December 2008, 20:51
You're quite welcome, Greg. It's a pet peeve of mine; I like knowing that when I hear that 'clunk' of the main contactor cutting out, there is no power at all left anywhere in the machine. (Related issue: providing bleed resistors for anything with big capacitors, though on a Mechmate, as Gerald points out, those resistors are called Gecko Drives). :)

Gerald D
Sat 06 December 2008, 23:08
If I understand this right, you are relying on a miniaturised 12VDC coil relay to open 120VAC contacts when you push an e-stop? I don't know if this is standard practice - I would check that relay out carefully to convince myself it is as reliable as a contactor. A contactor has a tough spring to open the contacts and a big coil to close them. That's what makes the satisfying "clunk" :)

gmessler
Sun 07 December 2008, 20:25
Sounds kind of crazy doesn't it.

I tried looking up the coil draw on my contactor the Teco CN-16-F6 and can't seem to figure it out.

Greg J
Sun 07 December 2008, 20:49
Watching closely Greg,

This point of the project is "sleepless nights". Let me re-state that "FUN sleepless nights". If it wasn't fun, we wouldn't be doing it.

Your almost cutting. :D

jhiggins7
Sun 07 December 2008, 21:28
Greg,

Per your post:

Sounds kind of crazy doesn't it.

I tried looking up the coil draw on my contactor the Teco CN-16-F6 and can't seem to figure it out.

Did you notice this specification on the Factorymation site? See page 4, paragraph 4, Control Circuit Characteristics:

http://factorymation.info/motor_controls/CN-9toCN-16.pdf

Looks like the energized power consumption is 12 VA. I don't know what "SEALED" means.

To get to the specification, click on CN-16-F6 on this page: http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:rmCcMV9KjMgJ:www.factorymation.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.54/.f+Teco+CN-16-F6&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

Regards,
John

gmessler
Sun 07 December 2008, 21:45
Hi Greg,

I can understand what you're talking about. The anticipation is killing me.

It's really painful waiting for parts (that should have been ordered sooner) to be delivered.

I'm also trying to figure out how Gerald knew about the lawn ornaments.:p

gmessler
Sun 07 December 2008, 22:14
Thanks John,

Don't know how I missed that...:)

Looks like around 6 or so amps. That's good to know.

The relay I was going to use can only handle 6 amps. That's not enough head room for me. I may go with a contactor like Gerald recommends, or an auto relay like J.R. uses. Just happen to have one of those on hand.:)

Gerald D
Sun 07 December 2008, 22:32
12VA consumed off a 120V circuit means only 0.1 Amp (Volts X Amps = VA)

Inrush 70VA is the figure I would design for. Also make sure your relay's contacts open wide (and fast) enough to handle 120V.

gmessler
Sun 07 December 2008, 23:31
I thought amps were RMS volts (volts *.707) / VA?

It makes sense that it should be able to handle the inrush current however it shouldn't ever see that. The start drives button should take that load then once released pass the hold current through the stop drives circuit.

Gerald D
Sun 07 December 2008, 23:39
VA is definitely Volts X Amps, equivalent to Watts.

Eg. think of a 500 VA power supply giving 10 Amp @ 50 Volt

jhiggins7
Mon 08 December 2008, 06:44
Greg,

Okay, I think I've finally spent enough time with your Control Box wiring layout to understand what you're doing.

First, as usual, Gerald is right. The INRUSH "current" at 120 volts would be 70 VA divided by 120 volts or about .6 Amps, i.e. 600 milliamps. That's not much of a challenge for most relays with contacts rated to switch 120 volts AC. So assuming your 12 VDC coil relay has contacts rated for switching 120 volts AC, you should be fine...you already said the contacts are rated for 6 Amps.

Second, I would like to revisit Brad's issue about leaving the 12V DC supply powered all the time per the following quote:

I see that the 12V DC supply at the bottom for your LV EStop is powered all the time, rather than switched by the contactor. Is there a reason for that?

I saw your response, but I wonder if it's usual practice to turn off the Disconnect Switch between machine uses. It appears that the purpose of that Disconnect is to remove all power from the Control Box, not to turn on and turn off the machine. I would think that that switch would be normally left on unless opening the Control Box.

My plan is to turn on the 12 VDC power supply in parallel with the Contactor when the On Button (in your case Start Drives button) is depressed. It will be "latched" on by the same Contactor contact that latches the Contactor. Just a thought.

Regards,
John

javeria
Mon 08 December 2008, 09:14
HI John, I dont know if what Greg has done is right or wrong - but I have taken a similar approach.

I have a 24V DC power which is always on status when power is switched on to the controller. this powers the Estop, proximities, pause, start switches.

a key switch is used in series with estop to activate the contactor.

the reason behind using 24V is to have a common DC voltage powering all accessories wiithout trouble of facing a possible shock from the 220v supply.

I will be powering the 24V transformer with a 500mA fuse in between which will take care of any shorts on the small transformer end. and also any failure of the transformer will auto trigerr an estop.

ok wait I am I on topic, well still i will continue

The different inputs have opto isolated inputs to the BOB.

RGDS
Irfan

jhiggins7
Mon 08 December 2008, 10:33
Irfan,

I don't think there is a "right" or "wrong" on this point. I, along with, I am sure others, have become more aware of the "energy" cost of "always on" devices. So, the design I have been working on takes this into account.

Have you wired your 24 volt supply to be powered through the Disconnect?
If yes, do you plan to turn off the Disconnect between machine uses or do you plan to leave the Disconnect engaged and power on and off the table using the On Button and Off Button?

BTW, Irfan, I have followed your progress with great interest. Thanks for sharing.:)

Regards,
John

javeria
Mon 08 December 2008, 18:28
If I understand correctly the disconnect is the contactor - I will be switching it on and off thru a relay powered by the 24V supply,

the whole set up is put on - off by the rotary on off switch. (in my case it is wall mounted)

RGDS
Irfan

gmessler
Tue 09 December 2008, 23:44
The 12/2 ga shielded cable showed up today.

It's a milspec M27500-12 SD2T23. The down side.....Not very flexible.....the individual wires are about the same as 12ga stranded thhn. That's not the least of it. After cutting off the outer jacket I noticed that the shielding was very black. when I cut off the inner jacket of the individual wires it was the same. It looks either VERY old or as though it sat in water. There were 37 strands in each conductor. I'm glad I only paid .35/ft

The 14/3 ga I received from Ebay is much more flexible. Each wire contains 40 strands. I went ahead and used the 14ga. It only has about 15ft or so to travel so I don't expect it to be a problem.

jhiggins7
Wed 10 December 2008, 07:20
Greg,

Thanks for the update. I was wondering if you had received that MIL SPEC cable.

Great pictures and analysis. Saved me from going down that same path.:D
The 14 ga. from Ebay looks good.

Regards,
John

domino11
Wed 10 December 2008, 14:39
Greg,
Sorry for the problems with wire #1. From the look of the tarnishing, it looks like the wire was silver coated. This is probably why it tarnished to black. Dont use this wire! Not a good idea to use it at all in this condition. :(

gmessler
Sun 14 December 2008, 20:35
Good news....Got things running tonight!:D

I still have a lot of work to do but I do have the motors turning and axis moving..

I had to make a few changes to the wiring. First I needed to run a separate neutral wire to the router indicator light and to the power on light. I had the power light inline with the contactor coil and it didn't like that, and the way the router light was wired would have been 220v. I also realized that there was no need for the second 12v transformer so I made changes to that wiring as well.

The HV E-Stop works. I just need to test the LV E-Stop, pause and start butons. I also need to finish getting the prox sensors set up.

Now for the bad news. I got called out of town and won't be able to work on the MM for at least a week.:mad:

Here are some photos of my control box. I still have a little tidying up to do but for the most part it's finished. I will say that if I did it over again I would definately use a larger box.

Cheers.

Gerald D
Sun 14 December 2008, 22:06
Well done Greg!

What are your control box dimensions?

gmessler
Sun 14 December 2008, 22:53
Thanks Gerald,

The box is 20x16x8.....Inches that is. Granted my extremely oversized powersupply doesn't help the situation. I believe only 2 more inches height (width as viewed) would have made life much easier.

Alan_c
Mon 15 December 2008, 00:49
Good going Greg, nice work. (cutting before Christmas?)

I agree with you on the box size, my hands are just too big to work comfortably on all those closly spaced components, I would also go for a bigger box just to make working inside it easier.

domino11
Mon 15 December 2008, 07:15
Greg,
Looking good! Hope everything else goes well for you. :)

gmessler
Fri 19 December 2008, 21:35
Thanks Alan & Heath,

Back in town tonight. Can't wait to get back to work on the MM.:) If I went out to the garage tonight I think the wife would make me stay out there. :eek:

Looks like tomorrow morning.

Missed the "12":(

14?:D

Gerald D
Fri 19 December 2008, 21:36
*starts dusting off the #14*

Jayson
Fri 19 December 2008, 23:33
Great work Greg. Looking really good.
I would have thought that #13 was up for grabs first. 14 is my favourite number and I was hoping for that one, oh well should have started building or maybe I'll just bribe Gerald to reserve it for me :rolleyes:

Jayson.

EDIT***

I see 13 is taken... Maybe Greg could have 12 :)

domino11
Sat 20 December 2008, 07:20
Nope, Nils has already snagged #12, dont think anyone could wrestle that one out of his hands! :)

gmessler
Sun 21 December 2008, 22:17
Tried running the roadrunner included with Mach.

This is what I came up with. It looks like part of the drawing is missing.

I still have to figure out how to use Mach and decide on a cad/cam program

Just waiting on my logos.:)

Gerald D
Sun 21 December 2008, 23:43
Nearly there Greg!

The free version of Mach3 limits the number of steps - I wonder if that is why your file stopped running?

gmessler
Mon 22 December 2008, 00:09
I'm sure that's it. There is code in the display after the line that it stops on.

Time to purchase a license.

Gerald D
Mon 22 December 2008, 02:10
Roadrunner is over 4000 lines, free Mach3 stops at 1000 lines.

sailfl
Mon 22 December 2008, 04:24
Greg M

Congratulations. I ran a lot of those Road Runners cuttings in the air. Air CNC - it saves wood and you don't need a bit.

Kobus_Joubert
Mon 22 December 2008, 21:26
or dust extraction .:p

gmessler
Mon 22 December 2008, 23:12
I finally purchased my copy of Mach 3.

That solved the problem of the incomplete roadrunner.:)

Kobus, you just reminded me that I still have to figure on the dust collection system.:eek:

gmessler
Sun 04 January 2009, 17:05
My machine is covered with sheets and other projects I have going on right now but I was able to get my logos attached. I'll take some pics later this week of the whole machine.

YRD
Sun 04 January 2009, 17:11
Congratulations Greg_M,

Looks like another # ? ;)

J.R. Hatcher
Sun 04 January 2009, 17:27
That looks like top of the line logos :D:p

javeria
Sun 04 January 2009, 19:25
Finally - think #15 is ready!

gmessler
Sun 04 January 2009, 19:27
Only the best J.R.:D

Here is a link to the machine cutting the partial road runner, out of the box settings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH8UYkPjicY

gmessler
Sun 04 January 2009, 19:28
Hey Irfan.....how much longer for your number???;)

javeria
Sun 04 January 2009, 19:55
I will take the position for the longest built ever Greg - I running into all sort of troubles :D

and my 2 week vacation is over today :)

RGDS
Irfan

Kobus_Joubert
Sun 04 January 2009, 21:48
Well done Greg, but keep the pictures comming. I for one would like to see what each person is making on his MM....this will stimulate more cutting idea's.

sailfl
Mon 05 January 2009, 00:41
Greg M,

Congratulations on # 15. Yea.

Doesn't matter how long it took, you did it. Cutting the Road Runner is nice but wait until you cut some thing more complicated. You will have so much fun watching the machine do its thing.

Alan_c
Mon 05 January 2009, 00:54
Well done Greg, feels good doesn't it?

Jayson
Mon 05 January 2009, 04:17
Well done Greg. Thanks for waiting so that I could get #14, its just a shame others didn't follow your lead ;)

Looking forward to seeing further updates.

Jayson

hennie
Mon 05 January 2009, 07:12
Nice one Greg!!

jhiggins7
Mon 05 January 2009, 07:38
Greg,

Contratulations on a great accomplishment!:):):)

You join a very distinguished group MechMate builders as Serial #15, here (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pLoxg8wu4WnsBc2_U5yEaQw).

Regards,
John

hans.arnell
Mon 05 January 2009, 14:21
Congratulations on #15

Hasse

gmessler
Sat 20 April 2019, 18:48
Hello everyone. I had a computer crash and I lost all my Mach3 information. My backup files are missing as well.
I can't seem to find the thread on setting up Mach. Can anybody help?

gmessler
Sat 27 April 2019, 11:28
Well, got everything figured out.

Hard drive was bad.
Memory was bad.
Parallel port card was bad.

Mach re-loaded and up and running.

jhiggins7
Tue 30 April 2019, 04:58
That's great news!

Not bad for a 10 year old machine.