Working On A Drag Knife for Vinyl! #117 - Bassett, VA

[Tom Ayres]

Hello all,

Thought I'd introduce myself, Tom Ayres, master woodworker by trade. My knowlege of cnc's is small, I almost bought a unit for $175K for my business. I just couldn't justify the $6k+/mth payment, quite an unsettling feeling of that kind of debt. Glad I didn't, but in the research process learned how much I need to learn...

Thought I'd apply my need for learning, so i've taken up electronics, my 11 year old son is into computers and has an interest in robotics. What better way to combine the two and my focus on detail, teach my son and myself something thats a strong life lesson and not to mention something that is also potential money generator!

Overall still very new to this and any support is greatly appreciated! Thanks!

Tom

[Medemt]

Hey Tom,

I am very new to this site myself. I found it by accident one day and I have not stopped reading posts and making a few Inquiries. I also spend a fair bit of time studying the drawings and relating them to the threads on this site. I am getting costs for all of the components and working out other logistical issues. Since I am travelling alot right now with my job, I will not start anything until I know I can put maximum effort into it.

I will say that this is a great site. There are some really great folks here and they seem to being so willing to help each other out. I have talked directly with some and am making arrangements to visit some guys that are either making a machine or have one running. Don't be shy about asking questions. As I said people here are very wiling to help. I have asked some dumb questions and have not been made to feel like an idiot - a sign of a quality group of people.

I spent a fair bit of time in Basset,Virginia year ago at the Furniture plant.

Well, look forward to seeing your build record. Good luck.

Dan

[sailfl]

Welcome Tom and Dan,

It is a great site and the machine is even better. Most of us come with different expertise or none. Mine is software and I was able to still build a machine. If you have a question(s) some one will answer it or Gerald will. You have to do the leg work but we will be happy to assist you if you run into a boulder. We like to see lots of pictures. It is always interesting to see what others are doing with their build or machine.

Happy building.

[Gerald D]

Hi Tom, looks like you have gotten all the drawings downloaded now?

[Tom Ayres]

Gerald,

Thanks. But no, I still can not pull part1 and part3 files, I've just about recked my computer by changing settings/configurations, finally got it somewhat back to normal. Maybe it would be better for someone to email it to me. My brother-in-law is always sending me file 5-10mb and they seem fine. These files are just over 2mb. Whats your take?

[Tom Ayres]

Oops! By-the-way, thanks for the warm welcome guys. I'm looking forward to this build.

[jhiggins7]

Hey Tom,

I'll be glad to try to help. Send me an E-Mail with your E-Mail address and I'll send you two different E-Mails, one with Part 1 and one with Part 3.

How does that sound?

Regards,
John

[Tom Ayres]

Sounds Great!:) Thanks, I'm really itching to get a good hard look at this.

[Tom Ayres]

At what point is there a number assigned to your machine? When you start or when you finish? And from who or where do you get said number?

[smreish]

Tom,
A living serial number document is kept here by a forum member and authorized by Mike and/or Gerald. Your machine gets a serial number at the end when it:
- is painted
- has logo's on all the required parts of the machine
- cuts and makes dust (or water jet, or plasma, draws with a sharpie)

[Tom Ayres]

Thanks Sean, I guess I'll have to wait, lol. I just finally got started after 3 years.

[Tom Ayres]

I'm sorta reintroducing myself because several years ago I was kicking around the idea of making a machine for myself. Well about a month ago I finally pulled the trigger and ordered some steel.

I haven't decided on 5 x 10 or 5 x 12 (go big or go home), OM pk299-f4.5a w/4:1 belt reduction. Software is up in the air. The frame of the MM seams small for the larger tables so I may 'beef it up', I dunno. Dust collection yes, and vaccuum in the future.

I have several welders (mig, stick, tig and a plasma cutter), 7x12 bandsaw, etc. I not too bad at that stuff, but I am a woodworker so metal is not my forte. I'm a fairly quick learner and my 14 year old son who wants to become an engineer will be assisting me. We home school our children and what better thing to teach, you've go electronics, computer related stuff, robotics, metalwork, system design and many other benefits. I'm sure he'll be teaching me a thing or two.

I look forward to this build and thank all in advance for your assistance. I'll be doing this in spare time (work two jobs) and resources so it may take a bit of time. But I think I may be ready for the laser parts in the next month or so anyway.

Thanks All,
Tom

[darren salyer]

Looking forward to watching your build progress, Tom.
Good Luck!!

[domino11]

Good to see you are still around Tom!
Best of Luck!

[MetalHead]

Welcome back !!! Glad to see folks diving in on some new builds !!!

[Tom Ayres]

Just dragged the steel in 15 minutes ago, the 14' x 8 x 2.25 can be quite heavy to move by yourself. Shew!

[Tom Ayres]

I know this is a stupid question, but what is the official MechMate color????:o

[domino11]

Ford Blue if I recall. There was a paint code floating around years ago but dont remember it at the moment. A lot of people in the states seem to use rustoleum Sail Blue. Here in Canada it is Tremclad Light Blue.

[Tom Ayres]

Thanks Heath, I'm really not a Ford man, could I use Chevy Orange, Ha Ha. I wonder the average number of cans of rustoleum are used...I think I'd be better off getting automotive paint and primer.

[sailfl]

Tom,

I sprayed my machine with rattler can rustoleum blue from HD. I don't remember how many cans I used besides the one that blew up in my truck. Gerald would like to see them in blue but he hasn't disallowed any other color so pick a color you love or can live with.

[Gerald D]

Official MechMate logo and colour (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=856&highlight=traffic+blue)

[Tom Ayres]

Thanks for the link Gerald. I'll call it MM Blue, I really like someone's machine(s) with the white and the black rails, any objections?

Nils, I guess it must have been summer time...that's your excuse to cover up the bank-job, right, huh?;)

[Gerald D]

Mike Metalhead owns all the rights now - I don't think he is too fussy about the particular colour.

[domino11]

Tom,
You can buy the rustoleum in a gallon format as well. You can thin it and spray it with a gun if you want. Or brush or roller as well.

[Tom Ayres]

Isn't the rustoleum a paint and primer in one? I'd have to spray it, after many years of cabinet work I don't have the patience to apply paint and watch it dry. As a matter of fact, I've got an english wheel I made a year ago that has yet to be painted. Maybe I'll paint it MM Blue as well.

[domino11]

Tom,
You can use rustoleum on bare metal or over a primer. A primer is always a good idea in my book. :)
Grab an adult beverage when watching paint dry. Makes the time go better! :)

[Tom Ayres]

I received an email from Eastwood, they just happen to have some of their Hot Rod paint kits on sale, they have a real nice GM Muisanne Blue (GM code 26, 70-72 Chevelle) which is as close as to MM Blue as I could get, on sale that is.

[Tom Ayres]

Well Fellas (and Kim ;)), I final started my build. It is official, I've welded some steel in the past few days, just received my laser cut and bent parts from Metalhead Mike (thanks by-the-way). I will try to post a few pics periodically. Just can't seem to get enough time to really dig in and get some real progress going (those pesky customers always wanting something). Well, this is where it begins. I look forward to picking your brains for advise and thanks in advance guys!

[domino11]

Congrats Tom! Good Luck. :)

[BooY]

Good job Tom :)

you do know you can keep posting in u're other thread without the need to create a new thread for each section, it'll be moved by the mods

[Tom Ayres]

Dave, Hey how'd you do that? Do I post to my 'Newby' thread?

Again thanks Heath, was out welding till 2 this morning now I've got to go work. Need more sleep.

[BooY]

I didn't do anything Tom, The mods have just tidied up your threads by merging them all into your original. If you just keep replying to this thread with updates and questions people will see them all in one place to follow your build and help you on your journey

Dave

[Tom Ayres]

I'll be more careful of what I say now that I know my little messages aren't hidden throughout the forum. My ignorance may appear closer in the mirror.:D

[darren salyer]

Just went back and read your intro...Exactly what is a Master Woodworker, and where does one recieve such a designation? Did you attend a school, or is it sort of a self proclaimed title?
I've heard others refer to themselves in a like mannner, and always wondered where it came from.

Thanks,
Darren

[Tom Ayres]

Hey Darren, for the most part it means I do my job better than average. The distinction was given to me by my peers at a local guild based on repeated quality work presented to the guild. Means nothing though as I know many others who's work I envy. But I am well versed in many aspects of woodworking, not turning so much, doesn't interest me. I guess anyone who can claim it if they have the chops.

[sailfl]

Tom,

Nice campers and website. I had trouble looking at your gallery. It was very slow loading.

I would think that you have good sales with people that like to tailgate party for football games.

[Tom Ayres]

Yeah some of the files are large and we're doing some maintenance to incorporated another business venture. If you are referring to the young ladies, I definitely agree. This last Christmas we were featured in the 2012 Neiman-Marcus Fantasy Gift Catalog and have one of our tailgaters listed at $150k, we've sold only 1 at that price but have had many that fall in the $45k-$75k marks. We are now nailing down final details on a deal with the NFL (big stuff).

[Tom Ayres]

I've got to do some finishing on a few cabs this evening so I see little getting done on big blue. I'm building it in my shop here at the house and 1200sf is hardly large enough to do both simultaneously, contamination of the finishes.

[Tom Ayres]

Just had a few minutes to research some of the controls and was wondering if this contactor is accepable? http://www.factorymation.com/Products/CU-22-I6.html Are there others that can be suggested as options?

[BooY]

Depends what size spindle you wish to use and what Voltage you're running?

Being you are in the US i'm assuming you'll go single phase 110V ? in which chase that contactor could be on the small side as the specs show 25A @ 110 which would work out to be around 2750W so by the time you take into account losses throughout the system it would prolly just be right for a 1.5kw/2kw spindle, but wouldn't for a 3kw spindle

[Tom Ayres]

sorry, I forgot to give more intended use info. I'll be operating at 220 v (which is like 2 110's) and 3KW spindle. I'm not real good on electronics but can rap my head around basics pretty well. Any info is greatly appreciated.

[bradm]

Tom, that contactor will be fine at 220v with a 3KW spindle. As Dave mentioned, if you tried were at 110, the amperage would be too high. At 220v, you have a comfortable safety margin.

[sailfl]

Tom,

Those contactors are what I have used in my controller box. I bought most of the parts for my controller box from FactoryMation.

Except what I could get from Skycraft Surplus.

[Tom Ayres]

Now in one of the other post by Gerald he had a 'thermistor' for the spindle that was not needed if the spindle had such protection. How can I find these? I not even sure what to be looking for. I know that I may be wasting time if it is not needed but think it is smarter to know my options and what will be required when choosing my spindle (it will most likely be from China)

[Tom Ayres]

Nils, Did you have any Pics of your control box on the forum?

[sailfl]

Tom,

http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=794&page=7 Post 270

That is when I had a router.

[Tom Ayres]

Thanks Nils, I just noticed that you live near Orlando, we have a place down in Cape Coral. I'll have to pay a visit next time we pass through. (if that's OK with you of coarse)

[sailfl]

Tom,

I always enjoy talking to MM. I have had many visitors that have built MM machines.

I have sailed out of Cape Coral and Ft Myers. It is a very nice area and a great place to sail. You sail?

[pblackburn]

A contactor is not needed for a vfd. If your VFD is set up properly it will protect the drive. If you were looking at a main line contactor for your entire box, I would not go with an IEC. IEC is always on the light side. It should be as resistive load relay or a NEMA contactor. Being an electro-mechanical technician, I can tell you that high voltage coils are frowned upon because of the potential that is there when troubleshooting. If you are 230 3 phase then this would be your only option unless you have a neutral. I don't know if you have a wye or delta configuration if you are 3 phase. Since you are in the states, you should try to comply with NEC and NFPA79. NEC now dictates that you must comply with them for any wiring is not a system purchase from a manufacturer where before NFPA would allow exceptions if you were the builder.

[sailfl]

Tom,

I bought my VFD from FactoryMation, Teco and I do not have it going throught my Controller Box. The extra contactor I have in my box was for my router. I ran 4 wires for the VFD-Spindle and it is 230.

My shop is in Orlando.

[Tom Ayres]

Nils, yes I do, I sold my 24' C&C Yacht two years ago. just didn't have the time. the nearest real water (in the mountains) is 80-90 minute drive away.

[Tom Ayres]

Pete, a NEMA contactor it'll be. I am using 220 single phase, so I should be able to go with the 3 pole, correct? I'm a little confused maybe by how the e-stop works with that & how it ties in. First, is the e-stop tied in at all? Is it the BOB that controls the estop then in turn cuts power at the contactor turning off the whole system. Can you help my understanding of this? I'm trying to understand how that contactor works.

The VFD should provide the protection to the spindle, so I shouldn't have to worry about it too much at this point. Thanks guys!

[alan254]

Hi Tom,

Check out starting on page 2 of my page "cutting some signs #95" we have along discussion on e stops, what should stop and what should not stop.

Al

[Tom Ayres]

Thanks Al, I have been following your build and I grasp it better after reviewing. Sometimes my head is a little thick, I do know that I'll get it better after I have most of the parts. I'm the type that has to have all things (or information) in place before it clicks.

Did you ever install that opto-isolator Brad had suggested?

[Tom Ayres]

Is this contactor Better? http://http://www.factorymation.com/Products/MC-22B-11-AC230.html

[sailfl]

Tom,

I purchased two of these for my controller box.

http://www.factorymation.com/Products/CU-22-F6.html

Hope that helps.

[Tom Ayres]

Thanks Nils, I think I just go with one of the two. Just came in from welding and grinding. Have completed the long side supports (minus the main rails) I'll post a pic as soon as I can find the camera.

[sailfl]

Yes, you don't need two if you are going to have a spindle.

[Tom Ayres]

I've tried searching for instruction on posting pics and can't find it. Can someone point me to the posting? Thanks

[Tom Ayres]

All right lets try again, this is the first pictures of my progress, first is the lower frame sides and the other is a dry fit of the laser cut parts that Metalhead Mike provides, (thanks Mike)
13855
13856

The welding is not great but passable.

[pblackburn]

Sorry Tom for the late reply. Getting ready for Easter with the kids. Plus they shared their cold with me so I have a double whammy.

It is your choice on a Nema or IEC contactor. IEC is way undersized if you have ever tore one apart. The contact tips are tiny. The company I work for have started to use them to save money. They are less expensive that is for sure. On a lot of our motors we have had to upsize the IEC contactors by 2x their rated value to reduce the pitting on the contacts. IEC tend to stick if arcing occurs when the contacts close and open. Your largest arc is always on the opening and causes the most damage. A 20A IEC contact tips are only a little bigger than an 1/8 inch across. More likely to stick from pitting. IEC's are throw away contactors also. Nema can be rebuilt. We have machines built in the 60's that still have the same Nema contactors in them. If I was allowed, I would show the images from the thermographic surveys done with a FLIR of the different contactors. IEC run hotter and fail more frequently. Unfortunately I cannot as I am bound by confidentiality agreements.

So the bottom line is will they work? Yes. But they are application specific. They are great for the electronic overloads they can provide. It all depends on the electrical design and what they are controls and the arc potential.

I like to think in terms of preventive maintenance and spend more for less hassle later. I only used Definite Purpose Relays and Nema contactors for my heavy loads and main line contactor. I used Ice-Cubes for my signal switching. I was always told the the parts aren't cheap, they are less expensive and the person who bought them was cheap. :)

[pblackburn]

Tom,
Posting pictures works great from Flickr or Photobucket. You do not use up your allotment of space on the forum this way and you can post a larger picture as it is dictated from the BBCode. If you decide to go that way, I will help you with that. As far as which to go with, I would read the fine print on who retains ownership of the photos and make your decision from there.

[Tom Ayres]

Pete, sorry about the cold thing, leave it to the kids to bring it home.

Well, what is considered a 'heavy load'? And I'm assuming Ice-Cubes are the cheap guys

My biggest problem with any of them is that I don't know enough about what I'm looking at when searching (sensory overload I guess). I got a grip on the IEC contactors because that is what was offered (limited #'s) at places like Factorymation and Automationdirect, however I've done searches of the NEMA type and thousands of different contactors come up with many additional options ranging from $75 to $6000. That's great if I knew how to weed them out or had a more focused source.

Ok, I agree with quality parts. But if I where to use the IEC, I would assume that you would recommend doing a scheduled change out solely based on the potential issues. Is this an option? Because you say the others are repairable means they to have a useful life expectancy and requires maintenance as well.

Oh, I may have to do the photobucket or something, I'll try first before I start asking questions.

[pblackburn]

Tom,

Sorry but this will be long for you to understand.

For the most part, the Mechmate design requires minimal high voltage control requirement if any. Most of your input signals are going to the breakout board. We are looking the relay logic side of this only and not the breakout board.

An Ice cube relay can be used for a mild resistive load but it will arc. We use them for vibratory motion control. They last about 2 months with this application and the load is 7A. What it is controlling determines the life span. They will cycle a minimum of 1,000,000 times without failure in optimum conditions. They are best used for signal control in the mA range. That would mean switching the binary on or off logic for a branch circuit. An example would but pulling in a contactor. If you have a 24VDC proximity switch but you are pulling in a Size 2 Nema contactor the inrush current will slowly destroy your proximity switch so you would used the prox switch to control the ice cube relay. The line voltage then goes through the contacts of the ice cube and it controls the Nema contactor. This way your consumable is a $5 product and not a $100 dollar proximity switch. A control circuit in most industrial machinery uses 120VAC and 24VDC controls. You can use only 24VDC but the power supply is larger because of the lower voltage. On the other hand it is safer to work on and troubleshoot. Think of voltage like blood pressure. The lower it is the harder it has to work to bridge the gap. You will have more carbon build up on your contacts with a lower voltage. This raises the resistance and requires more amps to close the circuit. This is another theory vs reality problem that most new engineers learn after the first few years of designing and adjust their designs to compensate.

The nema and iec debate. This is a his or hers debate. If I use an IEC contactor, and I do in some of my panel designs, the working load I expect to see (lets say 18 amps), I will use an IEC contactor rated to handle 40A. This is based on my past history working with them. IEC relays are not to be confused with an IEC contactor. The relay is used for signal switching and therefore are not subjected to high make-break potential that you will see when controlling a motor.

One way to think about a relay is it makes a click sound and a contactor makes a CLUNK sound.

Good example of the differences between (http://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-contactor-and-vs-relay/)

[pblackburn]

Wiki def of contactor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contactor)

[pblackburn]

Tom, you say you are using 220V. Single phase or Three Phase design? I used a Definite Purpose Contactor for my main line and dust collector. But I am using 220VAC Single Phase. You can get a 4 Pole 40A (50A resistive heating) for around $50. It is the gap between the extremes.

From your question
"Ok, I agree with quality parts. But if I were to use the IEC, I would assume that you would recommend doing a scheduled change out solely based on the potential issues. Is this an option? Because you say the others are repairable means they to have a useful life expectancy and requires maintenance as well."

If the IEC is oversized, it should last a long time at least 5+ years or longer if the duty cycle is very low. The only way to see if it is starting to fail though is with a thermographic device or it stops working. IEC do not come apart easily and are not meant to disassembled.

The most important thing is to size your components appropriately. You would not support something that weighed 100lbs with something that it's maximum capacity is 100lbs. The same is true with electricity. It needs wiggle room also.

[Tom Ayres]

Pete THANK YOU! I do understand this better than I thought. Its good to have good knowledgeable people around when you need them, Thanks Again!

[pblackburn]

No problem. Just trying to help.

[Tom Ayres]

I was in the shop cutting the 17g sheet metal for the control box and the 14g HF shear broke within the first 50", love that quality:rolleyes:. I'll pick up another blade tomorrow. A little trick when using one of these type of shears, spray a light film of wd-40 on the metal before you cut (I forgot)

[Tom Ayres]

Well Box is welded and primed. All I need are the hinges from grainger to weld on and viola! I'll post a pic tomorrow. The box is a little big but is probably good for air circulation, 24" x 24" x 10". Doing my taxes:(, can't spend too much time on this right now so I'll order some more stuff so it'll be here when I get this tax thing done.

[pblackburn]

Tom, my electrical enclosure is 24 x 36 x 10. I find my enclosure does not have any heat problems so you should be fine.

[Tom Ayres]

Thanks Pete, What do you think of putting a glass window in the box? I think I saw someone with one, thought it was cool:cool:

[swatkins]

http://www.mechmate.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9490&d=1273727522

[domino11]

I think I might opt for plexiglass rather than real glass. :)

[swatkins]

Mine is Plexiglass...Only way to go :)

http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2433&page=3

Details of the box start on post 88...

[KenC]

Thanks Pete, What do you think of putting a glass window in the box? I think I saw someone with one, thought it was cool:cool:

Looking cool is enough to justify any extra work ;)

[Tom Ayres]

Steve where did you find the window kit?

[pblackburn]

Window kits are for seeing the events happening inside. The best use of one would be for seeing the leds on your breakout board for troubleshooting.

[swatkins]

Tom here is a link for the one I purchased...they have several different ones to pick from..
http://www.crazypc.com/products/casemods/windows.htm

They are under 20.00

[pblackburn]

I have used 1/4" polycarbonate before with edge trim over the hole in the metal. Use silicone to glue the poly to the steel and drill through the steel and poly then tap the poly and secure with machine screws. If you take your time it will look good but not as good as a standard window kit for a box enclosure.

This is what I use a work but they cost a bit more. (http://www.hoffmanonline.com/stream_document.aspx?rrid=104555&prid=5943)

[Tom Ayres]

Thanks Steve, I'll order one. Good idea Pete, maybe trim in aluminum with rivets or something.

[Tom Ayres]

Painted the box blue (of coarse) tonight. I've got a lot of blue to clean up, I got in such a hurry to see the first bit of blue on anything that I forgot to lay out some cardboard or paper, oh well, let dry and sand, tah dah!

[Tom Ayres]

I ordered Bearings from Rick at Superior Bearings last night. I've made necessary mods to the skate for the rails, just waiting on bearings. I should be able to do a little more welding this morning to complete the side rails of the base, just wanted to make sure measurements were correct before proceeding. I really need to set up Flicker so I can post these pics.

[pblackburn]

If you go with Flickr, after you sign in and have photos uploaded. Click on the picture you wish to share from your photostream to show only that photo. Directly above the picture is a button labeled SHARE. Click on it and choose "Grab the HTML/BBCode". Click the radio button for BBCode and choose the picture size you wish to use. Then copy the code out of the text box and it can be directly pasted here. You can edit it if you wish or post it as is. By editing the code you can remove the link text , remove your username which is a link to your photostream or change the link text to something other than what is the name of the photo.

Hope that helps.

[Tom Ayres]

Thanks Pete, quite helpful. I'll give it a go this afternoon.:D

[Tom Ayres]

Welded the Y car this morning. Everything square, flat to the table and ready for a coat of primer and paint.

[pblackburn]

Sound like you are making headway. Keep on trucking.

[Tom Ayres]

Waiting on roller bearings from Rick, should be here by Tuesday. That's when the rail grinding starts-That's when the fun starts.:D

[pblackburn]

Tom, how are the rails coming?

[Tom Ayres]

Well Pete, Never got to them, the wife has me doing other house stuff (like finishing the bathroom remodel). I did however get the spoil board bolted to the cross members ready for welding. I'll have to finish a cabinet job before proceeding further though. Funny how the customer wants their stuff when you ignore them too long.

[pblackburn]

That last part was worth a laugh. Just seen a lot of people start and stop when they get to the rail grinding part.

[Tom Ayres]

I'm definitely ready to do the rails, got the skate set-up, shop is somewhat clean, got just about all the hardware needed for assembly, picked up the spoil boards last week (5x12's about killed me), got the teflon washers from James, been hounding my machinist about the bushings and bearing idler stud (zero cost so I can't complain) but just gotta keep'em happy. Planning my purchases of the control box and making final decisions on steppers and whether I should just use one of my 3.25 hp PC routers to start or just wait until I can afford a spindle set-up. What would you do?

[bradm]

Tom, I used a classic PC 690 1.75 hp to start; I also used it to cut the 1/2" aluminum (in .05" passes) to hold my spindle. If you're going to be ramping up slowly and learning the machine, I'd go with the router and upgrade when you're ready - you'll know for sure that spindle and VFD noise aren't the issue while you debug the table, and you'll get a good feel for the limits of the machine. However, if you're looking to get to high production levels fast, and willing to deal with the extra complexity, then go right to the spindle.

My little router taught me a lot about how to make multipass cuts.

[Tom Ayres]

I think I have 3 of the big PCs here at the house and of coarse the 'classic 690'. I hadn't thought of using a router to cut the bracket for the spindle, good starter project. And you are very right about not introducing another possible bug to fix, good call Brad. I would really like to get the spindle though, but I didn't want to buy additional boards when switching.

[pblackburn]

Adding a spindle will not require anything but a 485 converter using the serial port on your computer. It does require a bit of filtering, well quite a bit. WC spindle is nice for better dust containment and management as there is no fan to fight with your dust collector. I started out with a PC7518 but that is what I had around the house.

[Tom Ayres]

Now when you say filtering, does that mean chokes and isolated grounding, etc?

[pblackburn]

Yes. RF chokes, ferrite cores, line reactors, etc.

[Tom Ayres]

Also, because I would be using the serial port to control the spindle it would be safe to assume that Mach 3 would control that configuration setup? By-the-way Pete, my wife is from Blairsville near Indiana, Pennsylvania, 1 hour outside Pittsburg. Where are you?

[pblackburn]

Bedford, 2 hrs from Indiana, Pittsburgh and Harrisburg, 1 hour from Altoona and Cumberland, MD

[Tom Ayres]

I think my header "Going to start the rails" should add: "After my wife releases me from indenture..."

[pblackburn]

I think all of us that are married would have that title.

[swatkins]

Tom, I've been saying that for three years!

But I am sooooooo close to freedom.. http://starnetservices.com/picture/house.jpg Only 70 more doors to make and install and then on to the base ! :)

[Tom Ayres]

Got the seal for the control box door today, had to wait to fabricate the door until after I knew what the seal really looked like...Oh that's right, I can't until I can show some progress on the bathroom:rolleyes:, lol

Steve you have no idea how long I just stared at the forum before I decided to 'make my move' and start building, it took a lot of premeditated calculation...and here I wait again.:(

[pblackburn]

Tom,
I started thinking about a cnc router for my cabinets in 2007 when I was building my home but not on the size of a Mechmate, only large enough to do doors. Didn't have the time then as I was the one doing the building. I stumbled onto this forum in 2010 but I had to build a stone retaining wall around the home with rocks I removed with the excavator in 2007, 2011 I had to make a yard. Finally in November of that year I was able to get the wife onboard with building a CNC router. It will make her cabinets so therefore it was okay. She has left me play with it long enough to learn it and now she wants the new kitchen done. I would like a garage and the only way to get it is to finish the kitchen and dining room. Small price to pay but if they are not happy, neither are we.

[Tom Ayres]

Well Pete where is your MM now if not in the garage?

[pblackburn]

Basement is at ground level for first third of the home with 9'4 ceiling. House built into the hillside. My other home on the property is condemned and is slated to become the foundation for the garage (there were 2 houses on the same property when I bought it, one good, one not so good). This is why I harp on the importance of dust collection. I try to capture even the smallest particle which is impossible. I use ventilation and air exchange to assist air quality where the dc cannot go. That is also why I went the bolt together route to fit out my 6' x 6'8 doors when it makes the transition which I hope is next year.

[Tom Ayres]

Good luck with the garage, I'm sure it'll be a blessing. I started woodworking in my garage then built a small shop next to the house (30 x 40) after the wife complaining about the dust. Then moved my business into 6500sf two years later, then into a 11750sf. Now I'm trying to get back to the small one and a half man operation again (so much less headache)

[pblackburn]

I now about the dust and I try to maintain a minimum. The biggest helper was the wc spindle with the dust shoe. It collects more than 99% of the dust now. Don't smell it or taste it and flashlight test is good but I still added cross ventilation to be safe. Making one cut with my 12 compound miter saw makes more dust than a sheet of plywood being cut for cabinets. I have the layout of the garage, just need to start and I was informed kitchen is first. I will be in an area 26'x30'x9' when it is finished.

[Tom Ayres]

Very Nice! I don't have a dust collector here at the house, I look to find a deal with on-line auctions. Haven't really pushed for one because I want to make sure that the MM is built first.

[KenC]

ITs never too early to install a dust collector.

[Tom Ayres]

I understand the importance of dust collection and was planning a Bill Pentz cyclone set up. I've got the sheet metal but need to get the DC to know what size it will end up being, (based on Bill's calculations of hp and size of impeller, etc). I do have a fine dust filter system that I've used for years, works great. Gets rid of that pesky fine stuff fairly quickly that would otherwise not be picked. It'll all come with time (something I have a limited amount of).

[KenC]

Thien Separator is an effective & economical solution. all you need is to get hold of the biggest barrel you can put your hands on. 2 hours work tops.

[Tom Ayres]

I'll check those out. Do you have any references? I really enjoy metalwork though and look forward to building the cyclone.

[domino11]

Tom,
Try this out. The Thien Cyclone Separator Lid (http://www.jpthien.com/cy.htm) :)

[KenC]

http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=44406&postcount=347
how I did it.

[Tom Ayres]

Heath and Ken, thanks for sharing. I was planning for the exhaust to be vented outdoors with a collection bin for clean-out. I had already made an area on the outside for a cyclone set up when I first built this building. (noise is a big issue for me, I want to be able to hear my grandchildren when I get old)(I already can't hear my wife :D)

[domino11]

Tom, I think that is selective hearing. :)

[Tom Ayres]

Oh really...;)

[pblackburn]

I think the proper answer is "Yes Dear" :)

[Tom Ayres]

Received the steel for the z plate today, think I'll secretly layout the holes and countersinks. (sssshhhhhhhh) Also picked up some sanding disks to grind rails and ordered 36' of rack as well. had some of the last bits of steel delivered last week to the shop, again sshhhh....

On a good note, I did manage to make the stair hand rail for the house, made the wife happy, so there.

[pblackburn]

I hear ya. I still need the stepper for my indexing axis. Trying to sneak that one in somewhere.

[Tom Ayres]

Yesterday afternoon and some time this morning I cut the rails to height everything went well. I'll set up for the bevel and wait until I can get the additional time required. Snail's pace... I know.

[Tom Ayres]

Can anyone tell me the tolerance range for the rail height? I've got the first one at .06mm total variance. Is that okay or should I keep trying to get closer?

[Gerald D]

Tom, 0.06mm is excellent!

[Tom Ayres]

Gerald, I thought I should get it better when no one responded for a while, so, I went back to touch up and got it within .03mm. But that doesn't mean the next ones will be that close, that took a lot of time. I was only able to do that because I did the final passes at night (outside he shop), that way I could really see if material was coming off. Once the sparks were nearly nonexistent, Voila! I don't recommend doing the rough cuts in the dark (safety reasons) just maybe the final passes that don't require man-handling equipment.

[Tom Ayres]

Hey Folks, does anyone have experience with Longs Motor 34HS5850 steppers http://www.longs-motor.com/productinfo/detail_12_25_120.htmland their driver DM860A http://www.longs-motor.com/productinfo/detail_12_80_137.html? These seem to be the same manufacturer of the some of the other Chinese companies. I got a very favorable price from them, enough of a difference to really consider starting with these.

[pblackburn]

Sorry Tom, I have never used them. I have only used Oriental Motors and AMCI steppers and drives. Maybe someone else can chime in.

[danilom]

their model numbers 9840 and 9850 correspond to 9801 and 9802 models from other manufacturers we use.
Recently I got some ACT Motors 34HS9840 and they happily spin at 1000 rpm with 2M982 or DM860 style drives at 60V DC.

[Tom Ayres]

Great, thanks Danilo, that info saves me a lot of dough. :D

[Richards]

Tom,

There are a lot of good motors available. Personally, I would recommend the Oriental Motor PK296A2A-SG7.2 for a geared motor or the PK296-F4.5 for a motor that you would use with a belt drive. For direct use (non-geared), I would recommend the PK299-F4.5 motor. I would recommend the Geckodrive G201x or the G203v drivers.

Contact Mike (Metalhead) for his recommendations. I think that he has a kit that uses another motor that was thoroughly tested that is very similar to the PK299-F4.5 motor.

The problem with using other motors is that you, the designer, have to do all the testing to verify that those other motors and drivers will do the job. I enjoy doing that kind of test. In fact, I have a "test bench" all set up to do that very thing, but I doubt that most of you would want to spend $2,500 on a "test" setup just to check low cost motors. It kind of defeats the purpose.

I know that Oriental Motor products are more expensive than other options, especially in places where buying those motors requires that you buy them through a reseller. In that case, if I were to buy some other motor and driver, I would buy one motor and one driver and then do some testing on that motor and that driver. If it performs as expected, then I would buy the other motors and drivers (and at least one spare).

[Tom Ayres]

Mike, I value your input and will take under advisement. I would prefer to purchase the pk299-f4.5 and the geckos (which I probably will in the end) but when the cost of the drivers and the motors are under $600 delivered I can't see not taking the risk. I know there are others using the same steppers and drivers with little know problems. Worse case scenario I waste some time and I learn about what not to use and purchase the geckos and OM's anyway, that I don't mind so much.

[pblackburn]

Tom, unless you are using a direct drive to pinion the 299 would work but is not needed unless your working torque load is really high. The recommend power supply if memory serves me correctly is 50VDC using Mariss's formula Vmax=32*√L. Most here recommend a little higher than what the formula calculates out. Here is a post that Heath showed me. (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=60914&postcount=280)

I used the PK296A2A-SG7.2 (motors) and the PK296-F4.5A originally on a 35VDC power supply. The functioned well but recently I upgraded to a 56VDC power supply and they do run better. The A2A are wired half coil and the F4.5A is parallel. The both have identical ratings so the Vmax calculation was 39VDC. With the 299 and a Vmax of 50.6 you would be at 60VDC for a power supply.

I hope it helps you out in some way.

[Tom Ayres]

Pete, you are correct about the PS voltages. I think what I'll do is direct drive to cut the belt drive plates then switch to belt reduction. Based on the formula you mention the 34hs5850 require 72vdc but I think I'm going to 70vdc which falls within the mfg drive specs as well. I've ordered just about everything except wire at this point and maybe a few odds and ends.

[Tom Ayres]

Does the single core processor PC still apply? I didn't see anything in the forum that says any different but wanted input/anyone's 2 cents worth. I got a few old pc's laying around and wanted to open them up to see whats in them.

Update: working out a schematic layout so I have a layout reference for table top testing, working out proxy setup and push buttons, received PS, PDMX-126, estops, proxies, most junk in control box (and maybe too much) motors and drives will be here Tuesday, ferrules and wire from Mike today. Haven't flipped the machine right side up yet (waiting for available time and assistance). Still need to grind 45's on rails, been reading mach3 and pmdx-126 manuals repeatedly (lots to absorb, the schematic will give better overall sense), z plate at the machinist's, still need to weld-up the gantry (going to wait to verify measurements when more together).

Pete, Thanks for your assistance.;)

[danilom]

Almost any computer will do if you don't use large toolpath preview

[Tom Ayres]

Should I not view it at all or only during certain functions/activities?

[KenC]

Pc is the least problem. Even a Pentium2 has more computing power for Mach3. The current issue is having overly powerful pc not the other way round. Relax mate :)

[Tom Ayres]

So you're saying the PC is not the problem and mach 3 is, at least in part, the problem...great I'll find the best pc of the bunch and use it.

[pblackburn]

Tom,
I have a little experience with this. The current CPU of my computer is 3GHz Xeon. It does not like a large toolpath so I have to shut it off. It's brother computer was the first one I tried and Mach hated it. Caused jittery motion of the steppers because the pulse rate was crap. I have read enough to know it is more than just horsepower of the CPU. It is a combination of the CPU, GPU and the motherboard. If you are using parallel ports it can add another complexity to the process. I would say that your chance of picking a computer that will run Mach3 fine is in the greater than 95% range. Mach3 does have some downfalls but it is a great piece of software. We (hobbists) find them more because we are trying to push the envelope on cost and sustainability. An OEM puts a lot of time into finding a setup and design that is almost bulletproof. Their reputation relies on it. Therefore every piece is designed to work seamlessly together to give the end user a great experience. That is why proprietary parts cost so much more. Mach 4 hobby looks to be solid replacement but only time will tell. In all of posts I read I have people I have seen people using 733Hz PCs and Mach runs fine on them. It is more than muscle. Most likely you will be just fine.

[domino11]

I know my buddy Greg (bradyaero) in Smiths Falls, had a similar issue and solved it by just upgrading the video card to something with a better GPU. But like Pete said, the combination is the key.

[Tom Ayres]

Thanks fellas. First thing first, put it together then find the bugs.

[danilom]

With original mach screen the toolpath is rather small and does not affect performance as Mach2010 screenset which some of us use.

[Tom Ayres]

Well dug through the pile of old PC's and found nothing that will work, will have to outsource the PC.:( On a more positive note, the steppers and drivers I ordered are finally here.:cool:

When building my kitchen table project, any suggestions where to start?

[Gerald D]

one motor, one drive, power supply, breakout board on a rough piece of ply with crude wires . . . . give yourself the confidence that you can create motion.

[jhiggins7]

Tom,

It depends. If you are relatively confident in your electrical skills and you have new or "tested" parts, the only items you need to checkout in the kitchen table project are: motors, drivers, bob, power supplies and a PC. The other items in the control box can be checked out after final assembly. Temporarily wiring the motors, drivers(with resisters), bob, power supplies and a PC together will allow you to "spin" the motors using, say MACH3 and verify that your system will move the motors. It's a good idea to put a piece of light colored (coloured) tape on the shaft of the motors so that you can see them spin. This will not test the motors under load. To test the motors under load, I simply held the shaft of a motor between my "gloved" thumb and forefinger while securing the body of the motor, to simulate a load. I setup a repetitive routine in MACH3 to spin the motors continuously. I tried "slow", "medium" and "fast" speeds for each motor. My motors were used, so I spent extra time in checking them out.

Of course, I bow to others with greater experience who may differ with my opinion.

Let us know what you do and how it comes out. This will be helpful to others who are at a similar stage of their build.

[KenC]

The 1st thing I did when I started my Kitchen Table Project was finding a flat horizontal surface which were not clutter by stuff.... :)

[pblackburn]

I did not do that part of the build as I just assembled and tested everything with the pinions not engaged in the rack. Like John stated it really depends on your comfort level.

[Red_boards]

If you're running a "standard" configuration then download and install the configuration from Mach3. Then it's just wire things together, apply power and follow the steps in the Mach3 and BOB manuals. Worked to get my ply / spaghetti wiring kitchen table project running immediately on power up.

[pblackburn]

I will try to stress reading the MachMill Install and Config Guide thoroughly. It cannot be read enough. I lot of good information there.

[Tom Ayres]

I don't have a working PC yet(for the most part), so, based on the manual for the bob (pmdx 126) I can run the on-board test just to see if the steppers operate.

[pblackburn]

Yes you can do that with the 126

[Tom Ayres]

I've read a large portion of the mach 3 manual but I Know I'll have a bit of a learning curve, needless to say. I'll post my progress starting tomorrow. Thanks guys.

[Tom Ayres]

As some of you know I chose to purchase my steppers from china at a good price (we'll see). However trying to communicate with them has a 12 hour delay. My question is how to wire these steppers bipolar-parallel. I'll try to attach the docs they sent me, see if you can make heads or tales of what I think is parallel.

Tell me if I'm on the right track. Red to Blue, Yellow to Black, White to Brown, Orange to Green- @ driver +a (red) -a (black), +b (white) -b (green). Is this correct or is there something I don't know about? Sorry but I can't figure how to show a pdf

[Tom Ayres]

I was correct but is expressed = Red-blue +A, Yellow-Black -A, White-Brown +B, Orange-Green -B. Finally, I can run this test. One other question, is there a preferred safe way to discharge the PS? (safety first) Anyone... anyone... Bueller... Bueller...

[domino11]

Tom,
A 20 watt ( or more) power resistor around 100 ohms or so makes a good bleeder for the power supply. You could also use an old incandescent bulb with some clip leads in a pinch. Use a volt meter to make sure you know what the capacitor bank is at and always remove your bleeder before you do any work. That way you will not power up the supply with the bleeder still hooked up. :)

[Gerald D]

Leave a drive connected to the power supply - that will act as a bleeder.

[Tom Ayres]

Are there any issues with an AMD dual core processor?

[danilom]

I prefer Intel , recently installed mach3 on a windows 7 starter preinstalled machine, no problems what so ever.

This is the configuration, you can see the list of components, if you need translation be free to contact me :)

http://www.winwin.rs/racunari-i-komponente/desktop-racunari/desktop-racunari-sa-os/racunar-altos-lite-8-intel-celeron-dual-2gb-ddr3-320gb-dvd-win-8.html

[Tom Ayres]

Thanks Danilo, I found another PC with single core Intel which I think I'll be happier using.

[zumergido]

i have change mi pc to an intel d2500 atom itx motherboard. have a lpt port and no cooler on the cpu. works well on xp with mach3 1gb ram..
and the best part .. they are cheap.

[Tom Ayres]

Well, we have a success, the PMDX-126, DM860a drivers and Antek PS-10N70R5R12 turned the Longs Motors 34HS5850 stepper in test mode. Even though it does not do a lot in test mode doesn't make it insignificant. I'm uploading a video to flicker right now (large File) looks like it will be a while before its ready. I have to figure out how to create smaller video file sizes in my daughter's new ipod (more junk to learn). I'll post as soon as its ready.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thomas_ayres_jr/9269994813

Let's see if that'll work

[Gerald D]

Tom, that is a significant and worthwhile start . . . well done. Motion without smoke must have given you more confidence, and a feeling of priorities.

[Tom Ayres]

Gerald you are right, I do feel more confident but there is much more to be learned. This step removed a lot of the questions. Next is getting the computer set up to make more than 1 motor working, this will be a breeze if I've done my homework right, then on to the actual control box set up. Thanks guys.

[Tom Ayres]

All-righty-then, can anyone tell me exactly the kind of printer cable I'm supposed to have? All male/male cables that I find are 'switchbox' cables not parallel. Will this work or do I need to keep looking?

[pblackburn]

A standard parallel cable will work just fine. With the 126 PMDX sells a cable assembly that works with a standard cable. Reference Here (http://www.pmdx.com/DB25Ribbon-18)

[pblackburn]

Here are the cables I used (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00006HSD0/)

[Tom Ayres]

Thanks Pete, turns out that I had one in the closet that works, but had already ordered another.

I got the steppers to operate under Mach3 (demo)but I noticed when I was jogging at 100% that the steppers would run for a bit than sorta lock up and make sounds as if it were running (but different):eek: is this something that has to do with tuning, interference or is that step loss?

[pblackburn]

That sounds like a stall but could not know for sure without seeing it. Double check your velocity and acceleration settings again. When you ran the driver test, what did it say? Is your pulse steady or fluctuating?

[danilom]

While jogging on let's say 50% feed , is the motor sound constant and does not change tone? Mach driver test is not something that can for sure say you got a computer problem.

Irregular pulse rate can stall steppers, because the smallest pause or interruption in pulse stream makes drive to decelerate the motor and then the next pulse comes too fast, stepper can't accelerate and stalls.

[Tom Ayres]

Pete the driver test shows that it fluctuates sometimes as much as 50. I noticed when I move the mouse a lot that the pulses start to drop and there are quite a few spikes, so it may be related to the usb port interupts or maybe the lpt port set-up (on-board). I have a dual port pci parallel port card in but haven't figure out how to get it operating yet. I'll start with shutting down some of the usb ports (8 of them). I'm not sure what my velocity and acceleration should be during testing or on the table for that matter.

Danilo, I think that's part of it. Well there certainly could be interruptions from emf's because everything is within a 3ft area, wires flying everywhere, one big mess, nothing pretty.

[pblackburn]

Tom,
As long as you do not have a VFD running and you do not have motors laying on wires you should be okay. Older cordless phones and wireless routers can be noisy plus newer DISH receivers create noise at certain states of power up. My scanner picks it up all the time. Check your port settings on you LPT. Mach's forum is the place to get great support on Mach problems. When Mach is open and on your diagnostics screen the pulse rate should be steady with minimal movement. It should lock in.

From your video, Install some stand-offs if you do not have them under the 126, stray currents may pass on the surface that it is laying on. Also your drain wires should be tied to ground to properly remove any noise that could be in your wires. Only attach the drain on one end only to allow it to work properly. It is not in the video

This is most likely a setup issue and should be expected when setting up any new piece of machinery. Although these items can be frustrating, work through them.

Remember Einstein said this...."We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

[Tom Ayres]

Thanks Pete, absolutely nothing is grounded at all at this point but I will pursue. I've got an Eagle Scout ceremony to assist with this afternoon so everything is put on the back burner for today (unless I can sneak in some time, he he). Einstein... he was a fairly smart fella wasn't he?

[Tom Ayres]

I have a choice of spur gear materials, High Carbon and Low Carbon. Which would be easier to ream to size?

[pblackburn]

If it is true high carbon then it can be as hard as spring steel. It would be very ornery to machine. Not that it could not be done but you would have to have inserts for cutting hard materials for the lathe you would have to use.

[Gerald D]

The high carbon gear would be intended for further heat treatment to harden/toughen it. (You cannot heat treat low carbon steel). However, the high carbon version will be sold to you before heat treatment, and it is therefore as easy to machine as the low carbon version.

[KenC]

Since spur gears are dirt cheap in-comparison to the rack. I would use soft pinion.
Unless I have a life time supply of free rack... than I'll harden my pinion.

[pblackburn]

I opted for the plain steel rack and pinion from McMaster Carr. I am with Ken

[Tom Ayres]

I got my rack from standard steel, so I'm not sure what the hardness would be. I'll get the low carbon spurs.

[Gerald D]

We used to wear out low carbon pinions within a year or two. Now running hardened gears and both the pinions and racks are doing fine after 4 plus years (with heavier duty use)

[pblackburn]

Tom, any progress?

[Tom Ayres]

Pete, I haven't bailed on you, wish I could say its all done, but I'm on another honey-do list and finishing up a 'paying job'. I am gathering the last of the small stuff needed (like the grub screws for the pinions). I haven't decided who's belt reduction plates I want to copy (already have the belts and pulleys 3.6:1, bearings & shafts) or if I'm just going for a spindle at the start. However I should be able to get back on this in about 2-3 weeks. Believe me I want to see some progress too! Thanks for asking.

[pblackburn]

A 3.6:1 or 4:1 will render plenty of resolution. Mine are high only because I was re-using the same steppers from the gearbox. I wanted to stay within the design capacity of the original. My Z is a 4:1.

I hear you on the other projects. I was back to cabinets, then tore off to do a relative's fence, then a chimney repair. Now I have to build a shed before winter.

[smreish]

3.6 is the sweet spot. The perfect compromise between fast table jog and surface speeds and resolution.

[Tom Ayres]

Pete I thought if I went with the 4:1 that the small pulley would be too small to have enough meat to hold the grubs. I have to ream the small pulleys to 14mm to fit the steppers so I went with the 20t. Like Sean said, I too think its the 'sweet spot'. Any suggestions for who has a good plate to copy or 'simulate'?;) I either want to be able to make them myself from aluminum or just have a local laser guy cut them from steel, but I don't want to make anything that requires additional machine work to make it work.

[racedirector]

Ross's (SurfCNC) drives are pretty cool, he had his laser cut. Can't remember what ratio he used, I think it was 4:1.

[Tom Ayres]

Thanks Bruce, I have seen his but can not seem to get them to print or even accept dim lines to verify sizes. But they look cool.

[Mrayhursh]

Thomas saw your video on flickr. Did you take the pic of the iced trees. That is a perfect shot. I would copy it and hang it but I think it is illegal in Florida. I have been out cutting, drilling and tapping steel. I want to get most of the base done before it starts raining again (fat chance). My gear rack showed up along with the vrail. I will spent tomorrow mounting it. later

[Tom Ayres]

Mike, you're not letting any grass grow under your feet are you? Yep, the picture is a good one, we've got a place in Cape Coral, Florida, and I would say its probably illegal to have ice anywhere there.:D Have fun.

[pblackburn]

Tom, since you say that you were worried about the small pulley being too small, you may have to make your own design. Even with laser cutting there usually is some machining required but not always. There are some really reasonable laser cut services out there. The lowest quote I had on my plates for my 7.2:1 drive plates which where roughly 10"x20" was $8 per piece for 0.187" pio steel. If you love machining and shiny surfaces then use aluminum. I used all xl pulleys and belts. Maybe others will chime in about what they used. My small pulleys on all of my belt reductions are 18 tpi.

[Tom Ayres]

Pete, the cost is not the issue, I guess I just didn't want to spend any additional time trying to reinventing the wheel. I could go direct drive and cut parts until I found one that suits me, but then I'd have to order more spur gears and more machining. What size spur gear do you run and what would you recommend for the 3.6:1? I thought that maybe I'd have to drive direct at first so I purchased 24T. What's you thoughts?

[pblackburn]

30 tooth 20° PA. I would just do the belt drive if the money and time is not the issue. The reinventing part is not so true. Every design has strengths and weaknesses. Plus you have to give some to the materials you have available to use. Your machine build may require a minimal space or different angle to mount the reduction assembly. Anything can be improved.

[Tom Ayres]

Well Pete you may be right about the wheel. Maybe I'll just play with it awhile and see what I've come up with. Perhaps I'll pickup some aluminum plate. I've already gotten all parts for the drives except the plates. So you recommend 30t spurs, is that common among the MM community? Is the 24t OK to use for now or not? What do some of you other guys have?

[pblackburn]

From what I read originally the 30 tooth was common. Others may chime in.

[Tom Ayres]

Well looks like I need to order some. It had been a while since I read anything on spurs and must have not researched it much, last I remember was someone recommending 25 and 30's and keeping 28's as spares, oh well. Thanks Pete.

[litemover]

I used a 30 tooth spur gear and it works great!

[Tom Ayres]

Thanks Chris, I ordered a set of thirties last week and should be here this week. Are you loving your machine yet?

[Tom Ayres]

I ordered a cheapo 2.2 kw water cooled spindle and vfd yesterday, thought I'd give it a try. I opted for this path because it would cost near enough to put fresh bearings in the PC and new mount plus I'd still have crap and crap power, just crap. Question, is a shielded 3 core 2.5 mm2 cable what I need for power to this thing? And should I attempt to fabricate a mount for this thing or does it require a fair amount of accuracy?

[litemover]

Oh yeah, I am. It's pretty surreal owning a such a huge and useful piece of robotic equipment. I'm still getting past the phase of it actually being finished. :D

[racedirector]

Tom, welcome to the spindle club. They are awesome little things. If you are willing to splash out on a bulletproof mount for it try this one from cncrouterparts. http://www.cncrouterparts.com/80-mm-spindle-mount-p-102.html Without the mounting plate (primarily for ali extrusion) it runs at USD$78. I'll be swapping my K2CNC style spindle mount for one of these for my machine.

[litemover]

1.5mm square screened cable from the VFD to Spindle will do most likely. I used 2.5mm sq from the mains to the VFD. The Spindle is 3 phase out of the VFD. I would make sure the mount is very accurate or you could risk damaging the spindle.

[Tom Ayres]

Chris that's funny. Do you still feel like you need to build something? -Chris I used to know a cook from Auckland, he came to the states and worked in the restaurant I worked, David Sherwood was his name. Excellent cook, said he cooked for the Queen or something, really big beer drinker, he drank 50 imported beers in 12 hour period the day before he was going home, that was 24+ years ago.

[Tom Ayres]

I guess I need to build a small control box for it too...

[Tom Ayres]

Bruce, apparently the mount is now $95, holy #*&%!

[pblackburn]

Running VFD cable similar to this will save headaches. You would be amazed at what all a VFD will do to cause problems. (http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70124631)

I end up with Zero Phase reactors and Ferrite cores as well. You will find with the 2.2kW spindles that they are not insulated very well and if you test it without be mounted to anything steel you can pick up voltage readings on the casing. This is similar to a break in a rc circuit where the voltage can be read but there is minimal to no current flow.

A spindle is the way to go. They run much better and the only maintenance is to change the high speed precision bearings when they start to fail which should not be any time soon. When I was facing side the 1.500" side white oak boards and removing 0.100" per run I only reached 2.7A draw. My old PC7518 would have been hot and miserable but a spindle will just keep on running.

[pblackburn]

The amount of material I have in my mount would cost now about $100.00. I used a 2 clamp mount design. I have access to machine tools so building one was an better so I could design it the way I wanted it. This may not be the case for you.

[pblackburn]

Mounting your VFD in a separate enclosure is always a good idea.

[Tom Ayres]

Pete were do I find these ferrite cores and zero phase reactors, more pointedly, what exactly am I looking for in a zero phase reactor (blonde hair, blue eyes, 36-24-36,what)?:D I guess if I knew what to look for I could find them Found them

[pblackburn]

I got mine from automation direct

[pblackburn]

More specifically here (http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/AC_Drive_%28VFD%29_Spare_Parts_-a-_Accessories/Optional_Drive_Related_Items/RF220X00A)

[Tom Ayres]

Is this one OK? http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/AC_Drive_(VFD)_Spare_Parts_-a-_Accessories/AC_Line_Reactors/LR-23P0

[KenC]

If you are gentle with your plunge rate, your spindle bearings will last a long long time.

I use the left over CY cable from mains to my cheapo VFD. no problem till now. my main is 230V 50hz too.

I love my solid chunk cast aluminium spindle holder. It make the cncrouterpart holder looks like a toy. I would strongly suggest you mill one from a solid chunk of aluminum.

zero phase reactor is the glamour name for Zero-phase crossing Solid State Relay (SSR). You don't rreally need it. My 3kW runs without a hick without one.

Ferrite core? I got mine from RS component. I'm sure you can find them in Element14.

Mount VFD in enclosure? Its going to be tedious when one wish to show-off to visitors... :) I'll save the money on the enclosure for a chunky spindle holder.

[pblackburn]

As long as the line reactor is within your amp specs that would work fine.

[Tom Ayres]

I believe it is. thanks again Pete.

Ken, I plan to work the hell out of it (just kidding). I do have access to a full machine shop, I guess I'd need a plan of action after I actually receive the spindle. It looks almost cheaper to buy one of those precast chunks from china.

[KenC]

The Chinese precast chunk is what I am using.

[Tom Ayres]

Well Fellas, I received my spindle and vfd yesterday. Started into the manual for the vfd and started wondering if there's any one particular thing that I should focus on first. If anyone has a Huanyang 2.2kw vfd and could impart any of their experience of do's and don'ts, or stumbling blocks, it would be greatly appreciated.

[KenC]

Don't plug it in until you go through the forum once over.

[Tom Ayres]

That's always good advise.

[Tom Ayres]

Well I didn't win the lottery:(

[KenC]

do a search. Its been well documented.

[Tom Ayres]

Thanks Ken, I had found many you tube videos that should help greatly.

[Tom Ayres]

Should the vfd and control panel share the same power source/circuit or is there a recommended isolation of the two? Should the control box supply the power to the vfd? The VFD requires 10 amp (8a actual) and the control box about 16a max my best guess. Is running the power to the vfd from the control box cool?

[pblackburn]

Should the vfd and control panel share the same power source/circuit or is there a recommended isolation of the two? Should the control box supply the power to the vfd? The VFD requires 10 amp (8a actual) and the control box about 16a max my best guess. Is running the power to the vfd from the control box cool?

In industry, a separate power supply in not preferred because of not having one lockout device. I would definitely use the same line feed for the same machine. Isolation is from the form of EMI filtering.

"Is running the power to the vfd from the control box cool?"

That is the normal way of an industrial control panel. Some machines have multiple panels and multiple junction boxes the size of the Mechmate control panel/electrical disclosure.

[Tom Ayres]

Thank Pete, I thought so. I'm not in the 'Industrial Field' so I always question hear-say. Also you are saying that the power should be after the Mains switch, is that correct?

[pblackburn]

Yes. Think of the common denominator here. Router. Now everything electrical that is needed to run, control the machine should be under one main disconnect. The laws are getting to be that even air dumps are required for machines if air is used by the machine unless the air dump is more dangerous to the operator.

[pblackburn]

You may not be in an industrial setting but your insurance company will note it if you ever need them for a claim. I always try to cover mine and try to kick theirs.

[pblackburn]

Did I answer your question Tom?

[Tom Ayres]

Yep, Again thanks! Sorry for the delay had to spray some cherry doors real quick.

[pblackburn]

No problem, sometimes I don't type exactly clear explanations. I haven't had much time with the machine lately, building a large shed for storage now (mini garage really) but I will try to keep up with what is going on here.

[Tom Ayres]

I hate to keep calling on everyone's expertise but can anyone explain the difference between a 'B' curve and a 'D' curve when it come to circuit breakers and also which would be better to use in our case. Opinions are welcome.:)

[pblackburn]

It has to do with the time and trip. Why do you ask?

[Tom Ayres]

Well I need a breaker for the VFD and didn't know if a VFD has specific characteristics that may trip the breaker unneccessarily. I'm probably over thinking it.

[pblackburn]

I don't think you will have a breaker the will be close enough in size for this to be a problem. I would recommend a using the VFD recommended protection sizing. The trip curve is a little different for each manufacturer of breaker but should be spec in their datasheet. Look at page 2 of this pdf in the upper right corner for the curve characteristics of this style breaker. http://www.alliedelec.com/images/products/datasheets/bm/TELEMECANIQUE/70007227.pdf

[Tom Ayres]

Thanks Pete, I've seen some comparative charts already for specific units, I guess it doesn't really matter as long as its protected properly.

[pblackburn]

Some motors need a large overcurrent ranges for the in rush. In this case you are needing the in rush for the VFD capacitors.

[Tom Ayres]

The spindle is 8 amps and the VFD is rated at 10 amp out, but being a Chinese unit, the manual is not really clear on anything. I would assume a 12 amp breaker is alright, whats your take on it?

[pblackburn]

The output is rated at 10 amp. If it is single phase in and three phase out, then your in current is much higher. My Hitachi drive was to be fused at 30A and it is 12A output. It is single phase 230VAC in and three phase out.

[Tom Ayres]

Well crap, I'll have to go through the manual again and see whats recommended, although I couldn't find it before.:(

[pblackburn]

Looking through their manual, it does not say, you are correct. Check with others here on the forum. I will not be much help with that because I bought the spindle alone and a different drive. Sorry I can't help more.

[Tom Ayres]

Thanks Pete. I'll do some investigating.

[Tom Ayres]

Well, I ran a bench set-up for the spindle and all was successful, speeds, accel and decel times, etc. Do have some questions regarding some of the odd set-up voltages which I will do some research and maybe mess around with. I'm sure that some of the parameters have little to do with the spindle and mostly with other types of motors for other uses. I also found that a 14g wire will not solder to the cheap connector that comes with the spindle, the pins are too small but they do accept a 18g comfortably. I guess I'll have to find one that will work at the local electronics retailer.

[pblackburn]

Tom, they will solder fine. Just trim the end down to 18g with your stripper only long enough insert into the cup. Make sure it is inserted so the rim of the full surface touches the end of the cup. Solder with quality 60/40 electronics solder. It is your choice to use shrink tube or liquid electrical tape.

[pblackburn]

The connectors are not the best of quality but they can be worked with.

[Tom Ayres]

Pete the problem is that the wire diameter is larger than the cup, bigger than the whole pin itself. I'll look for a better connector.

[pblackburn]

I understand that, if you use your wire strippers they will decrease the circular mills of the 14g to 18g. Strip off only enough copper to allow to slide into the cup but bottom out against the 14g copper to the back side of the cup then solder. This way you have full contact.

If you want a different connector, Amphenol makes good connectors.

[Tom Ayres]

I can do that and thought about doing that before but didn't think of it as a good practice IMHO. But after doing research and looking around for a connector that is large enough I find it is not possible. The largest cup diameter I found was 0.9 mm. Still requiring trimming the wire back a bit. Oh well, go with what works.

[Mrayhursh]

I was thinking and that is why I ask your advise.
Please review this solution to the issue.

http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag8/MikeH59/PA050073_zpsbe43750e.jpg (http://s1296.photobucket.com/user/MikeH59/media/PA050073_zpsbe43750e.jpg.html)

Use appropriate size pin connector
grind pin shaft to fit solder cup.
double crimp pin connector to wire.
solder pin connector to other connector
slide heat shrink over assembly and apply heat.
repeat until done.
pray before using...update insurance

[Tom Ayres]

Mike, I don't see how that can be done and still slide the connector cover/shield over it and be safe. The shield is what hopefully prevents wires from getting ripped out. I think Pete's approach is much better, just trim back the wire from 14g to 18g at the depth of the cup, insert and solder.

The connector that came with mine is a real cheapo and the pins aren't even firmly inserted, I'm definitely getting a replacement.

[Tom Ayres]

Insurance usually doesn't cover negligence.

[pblackburn]

You will be drawing 9 amps max, 18g is good for 5A. You will run around 2 to 6 amps with 2-3 being most of the time if your chip load is correct. Your area of coverage with the solder fills the gap of the minute amount of lose of copper. Your circular area is still the same after soldering. Your wire is only rated for 90°C before failure, solder melts at minimum of 190°C. The spindle connector that came for mine was for 16g wire. I purchased my spindle from UgraCNC.com. Contact them and see if they have a connector that will work if your connector solder cup is smaller than the gauge of your wire. They respond really fast, even on a Saturday.

[pblackburn]

Tom, reading post 248 it sound like you have a connector the was smaller than mine. I only have to modify the gland nut to accommodate the larger cable. Sounds like you will have to purchase a different connector.