Dovetails and other joints

[ger21]

I'm working on a little app to generate g-code for woodworking joints.
Interest? Feedback? Suggestions? - All welcome. :)

Happy Holidays,

Gerry

[darren salyer]

This is very interesting to me.
I could see a dedicated fixture on one end of the machine for drawer sides.

[alan254]

very usable

al

[sailfl]

Gerry,

Excellent. Will you be able to do these on the table and not on the end? Will you be able to add different bits?

Did you need any beta testers?

[Alan_c]

Yes, very interested!

[darren salyer]

I'll second Nils question about Beta testers.

[ger21]

At least one of the boards will need to be mounted vertically for half blind dovetails. For some of the other joints, both will need to be held vertically.

You'll be able to use any size dovetail bits. (Any angle, too) The app will have it's own tool table to hold your bit info. Once entered, you'll be able to select them from the table.


I'm quite a long way from needing beta testers, but I'll keep you guys in mind.

[Regnar]

Ger looks like you have it set up to do regular dovetails. Just wondering if you are going to have the option to do symmetrical and asymmetrical dovetails as well.

Now if you can to some of those fancy joints that MLCS sells ...........

http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/graphics4/fast_joint_20tempset108_big.jpg

[sailfl]

Russell,

I like the Dog Bone and the Hearts.

[Surfcnc]

Hi Ger

If it is anything like your screenset, this should be an instant hit.

Regards
Ross

[Khalid]

Incredible Gerry.. You are incredible...

[MetalHead]

This is cool !!!

[alan254]

Hi ger,

I will also be pleased to do some testing for you.

Al

[Robert M]

Gerry, when is this "anticipated or hoped for" to be available. Simply curious.....NAAA...VERY curious....:D
Robert ;)

[ger21]

Russel,
By symmetrical, do you mean varying sized dovetails mirrored about the center?
I do plan to do that. I have to add another tab for the more complex half blind dovetails.
My plan is to have a list of entry boxes to specify the size and position of each tail, and whether they are mirrored top to bottom or not. It's the only way I can see to do it.

And I am considering some of the "fancy" joints as well.

Just thinking right now, I may have two versions. A basic one with only the joints shown in the sample pic I posted, and an advanced version with those plus the more complex joints. That would allow me to get the basic version out earlier, and at a more affordable price point.

[ger21]

Gerry, when is this "anticipated or hoped for" to be available. Simply curious.....NAAA...VERY curious....:D
Robert ;)

I'm not even going to guess. Several months at the earliest, possibly much longer. Life has a habit of getting in my way. :)

[Robert M]

Thanks for this Gerry.
Wishing you smooth sailing along this path !
All the best for this beautiful festive season ;)

[Regnar]

Russel,
By symmetrical, do you mean varying sized dovetails mirrored about the center?

Ger that is what I mean. Sorry

Nils,
I remember reading and article stating that the Heart design was a stronger dovetail than reqular tails. Reason being was more glueing area and thicker tails near the base. I just cant remember what magazine it was in...

[Gerald D]

. . . . That would allow me to get the basic version out earlier, and at a more affordable price point. . . .

Maybe a very basic/beta version could go out as a freebie . . .

[Mojo]

I would certainly pay for this program let me know cheers!

[darren salyer]

Me too...

[Khalid]

Maybe a very basic/beta version could go out as a freebie . . .

Nobody will do other type of joints then;)

[Travish]

Looks awesome Ger! Interested!

[zumergido]

metric system?

[ger21]

Unfortunately, life got in the way and left me little time in the last year to work on this project. I'm hoping to be able to devote a lot of time this winter to it, as there is still several months of work to go to get it where I want it. Here's a link to a sample video for those that haven't seen it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDmBcpON3Zo

And yes, it will work in metric. It's really unitless. Just enter the correct units your working in and it should work fine.

[Tom Ayres]

Very Cool!

[darren salyer]

Very cool.
I'm doing dovetails on a Porter Cable jig now, that would be perfect for using strictly as a workholder for this.
I'll be watching for updates.....:)

[Mojo]

I will certainly be watching as well :)

[zumergido]

good... i like when the videos shows the bugs.. i will make some 45 degrees holder on my mm to tray it..

[ger21]

It's taken a year, but I've finally started working on the symmetrical dovetails Russel asked about. I think this is what he meant.

[Robert M]

Great results don't come....overnight ! ;)

[darren salyer]

Very cool Ger....

[smreish]

Clearly well thought out and implemented well!
Well done sir.

Sean

[alan254]

Looking forward to the release date. Count me in for in for one.

Al

[Alan_c]

Looking good, Happy New Year to all.

[darren salyer]

Any updates, Ger?

[ger21]

I **should** be finishing up the g-code portion of the last sample pic I posted this weekend. I thought it would have been done 3-4 weeks ago. Once I get the half blind dovetail portion done, I'm going to add some license code, and then I'll look for a few beta testers.

It'll still be at least 6 months until the program is complete. All the dovetail options have made coding rather complex.

[darren salyer]

If its anything like your screenset, I'm sure it will be top notch and worth the wait.

[Mojo]

It will be awsome to behold when it is done i am sure!

[ger21]

It's awesome right now! ;)

[Mojo]

Yay for Awsome!

[swatkins]

I have just got to finish mine! It's the next big project up and this program makes me want to hurry up :)

[pblackburn]

Be sure to leave a link to website that you use to sell the application when it is complete. I am interested in it as well. This is something that is definitely needed in the CNC woodworking arena. You should not have any problem in marketing this.

[darren salyer]

Agreed, Pete.

[Regnar]

Wow. Looking at all the other tabs across the top, Ger it looks like you picked up the ball and ran to another stadium. Agree with everyone else here you are going to have a nice gem there when you are done.

[ma0941987]

I'm working on a little app to generate g-code for woodworking joints. Interest? Feedback? Suggestions? - All welcome. :) Happy Holidays, Gerry lol................................. :)

[ger21]

Finally finished the code for through dovetails, and went out to do a test cut. Came out great.

This is a through joint where the tails are shorter than the board thickness, so one board gets a rabit. This allows you to make joints in thicker material with shorter tools.
I still need to code the opposite handed version of these, but I'm making good progress.

[pblackburn]

Awesome. How long until you have a version for purchase? I know how coding is so no date will surprise me.

[ger21]

No date is the answer. :)

I really don't know. I started almost 18 months ago, and then had to stop working on it for almost a year. I try to work on it a few days a week, but as it's getting warmer, I'm not sure how much time I'll be able to spend.

I also don't know how many features I'll end up adding. It's probably going to be another two weeks before I fully finish this current portion. Probably at least another month to finish the final dovetail portion. Then box joints, and mortise and tenons. I also found another cool joint I'm thinking of adding, but I'll have to wait and see. I also need to write a manual, which will take at least a few weeks.

Best case would probably be fall, maybe the end of the year. Worst case would probably be 10-12 months from now. If nothing comes up that takes away my time.

I think it will be worth the wait, especially if you need to make a lot of different dovetail joints. It's incredibly fast.
This was the first joint of this type that I cut. I walked in the garage, measured the wood, and picked up a bit. Entered the info, and I was ready to cut in 2 minutes.

Keep in mind that I'm not a programmer, so I'm about 10 times slower than a real programmer. Especially when I need to figure out how to do something.

[Tom Ayres]

Get it's looking awesome. Just keep us posted.

[pblackburn]

I write databases, some programs in VB and program robots to be controlled through VB. It can be painstaking at times. Just when you think you got it, you find a bug. That is why I said I know how coding is. I enjoy it but I am also glad I only have to do it at work. It looks great so far.

[racedirector]

Awesome Gerry, will definitely be buying this when it is ready to go with your awesome screenset :)

Oh and being an ex-programmer I can fully understand the time it takes to do this stuff. Keep at it, you have an awesome seller right there......

[ger21]

Dovetails are finished !! Mostly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6MnVHmr2UY

I'm going to start writing a manual in a few days. My plan is to offer a limited number of pre-release/beta versions at a reduced price, hopefully around the beginning of September.
I need to get all my business stuff in place first.

[Alan_c]

Cool!! cant wait :)

[racedirector]

Awesome Gerry, count me in!

[Tom Ayres]

Kinda makes that expensive dovetail jig I bought worthless...

[ger21]

You will need to fabricate some type of jig/fixture to get the most out of this. Ideally, you want something with a repeatable location, so you can just call a work offset whenever you want to cut dovetails.
I'll have a drawing of how I envision it in the manual.

[racedirector]

Was wondering what work offsets were used for, now I know! Off to learn more in preparation for dovetails :)

[sailfl]

Ger,

What controls the depth of the cuts? I would want to be able to cut deeper pass. Can that be changed in the software?

Thanks

[ger21]

If you watch the video in 1080p, and pause it about 10 seconds in, you'll see the parameters for both the dovetail and straight bits in the bottom left corner.
You can set the depth /pass for the straight bit to whatever you want, and you can omit the straight bit (roughing) altogether for the tails. With a more rigid machine than mine ;) you can cut that joint in about 30 seconds.

[alan254]

Hi Ger,

I am willing to test. Most of my work is furniture and cabinets. I can see where could also be easily set up mortise and tendon work also.

Great job. I am a buyer

AL

[alan254]

Just reviewed post #47 and see you have already have a tab for mortise and tendon. Way ahead of me.

Thanks

[ger21]

Mortise and tenons won't be added until the end of the year, after I add the box/finger joints.

I've spent the vast majority of my spare time working on this over the last 6 months.

I need to spend the next few months on documentation, website design, and the business end of it.

I'll get to it, but it's taking far longer than I'd hoped.

[Andrew_standen]

Hi Ger,

Count me in, been watching you for a while, it's looking good.
Software development takes time, I should know I've been a programmer for 25 years.
Take your time and get it right.
I'm a buyer for this.
Cheers
Andrew

[alan254]

I know about the business end. Tough.

I am willing to pre pay for the program at your projected price if that will help a I know others will you are very trusted on this site.

Thanks Al

[pblackburn]

Ger, I will purchase this when you say it is ready.

[ger21]

Thanks for the support, guys. Right now I'm looking out over the ocean in sunny Vancouver, British Columbia, while on a much needed vacation. But I'm spending a few hours each morning working on the manual.

[pblackburn]

Enjoy the time off. The manual can come later. :cool:

[rcboats1]

Gerry, if your going to come south towards Seattle let me know and I will buy you a beverage.

Kelly.

[ger21]

Thanks for the offer, but no, I won't be in the states out here, as we flew directly into Vancouver. Last time I was here we flew into Seattle and drove, but I didn't want to spend the time driving this time.

[jask]

I hope you had a great vacation out here! the weather has been all over the chart this year. I am really impressed with your work on this! please ad my name to your Beta buyers list.

[ger21]

Making up some samples for website photos using different hardwoods for color contrast. I'm going to glue up 8-10 different joints, and sand and finish them for the pics.
First one is African Mahogany and Flamed Birch. Variable sized pins and tails.

Incredibly tight fit, and very clean cuts.

[racedirector]

Oh you are just teasing now! :) Looks fantastic, can't wait to get my machine done and dusted so I am ready for when all this goes on sale......

[Robert M]

Zvanderfull ;)

[Tom Ayres]

Gerry, they look great! Can't wait!

[Fox]

Not want to be nagging ( really impressive + i'm not a woodworker) just wondering;

however big or small they may be, it seems like there are on some joints gaps and others not ? in other words irregular results ? Or is this an optical illusion ?

And the fingers sticking out ever so slightly is that on purpose, so you sand them flat after glueing ?

In the end you need to glue it, so it actually should also not be too tight, right , to get the glue in ?

[ger21]

The small gap in the middle (about .01" or less) is the result of assembling and disassembling a few time, which crushed the wood a little. Thre's only really one small gap, which I think is the result of the board being warped, or deflection of the wood, as it's very thin at the top pin. For perfect joints, it's imperative that your stock is perfectly square and flat, and your zero positions are absolutely perfect. Any errors anywhere in the setup will show in the joint.
It's also part optical illusion. It's really a very good joint. If there were any inconsistencies, it wouldn't fit together.

Yes, the joints are purposely cut .02" long, which is sanded of after assembly.

You may or may not need some additional clearance for glue, depending on the type of glue used. There's a clearance setting in the software to adjust the fit.
Polyurethane glues (gorilla glue) and epoxies act as a lubricant, so you can have a very tight joint with those glues. Regular wood glues (Titebond) need some clearance, as they will make the joint actually seem tighter.

I'm making these to show the capabilities of the software, so the finished product will be perfect.

[Fox]

Sounds like you got everything covered, looking forward !

[pblackburn]

Awesome job Ger.

[technogod]

i believe your products are well planed and easy to use Gerry.hope will be on sale soon so that we can purchase.
good job.

[Tom Ayres]

Gerry are you still on target by the end of the year?

[ger21]

I'm hoping to release it with dovetails only in about a month.
I'm assuming there will be a few(?) minor bugs that will turn up once other people start using it, which will possibly a few weeks of bug fixing.
Once those issues are ironed out, I'll start working on the box joints.
I can't guarantee I'll have it 100% done by the end of the year, but I'll be working on it.

I worked on this from December to June, almost daily, to get it where it is now. It's taken far longer than I though it would. I'm hoping that the remainder goes faster, as I've learned a lot this past year.

I realized yesterday that my method for adjusting the fit does not work with through dovetails, so I need a different method.
With half blind dovetails, you just vary the depth of cut top adjust the fit.
Shallower = looser, deeper = tighter.
With through dovetails, changing the depth of cut just moves the location of the pin board in relation to the end of the tail board.
It looks like I need to change the size of the pins to adjust the fit. I have an idea on how to do this, which is hopefully relatively painless. (only a few hours?)





however big or small they may be, it seems like there are on some joints gaps and others not ? in other words irregular results ? Or is this an optical illusion ?


While some of what you saw was due to optical illusions (from shadows), you were correct, there were some irregular gaps. I had assumed that they were caused by flex in my machine, because the joints still fit together very well. Typically, when there are errors, they just won't go together at all.
But I went through the g-code, and found a few errors in my toolpaths, which were off between .002"-.004" in some places. I should have this fixed up today.

[Tom Ayres]

Can't wait, thanks:)

[Fox]

While some of what you saw was due to optical illusions (from shadows), you were correct, there were some irregular gaps. I had assumed that they were caused by flex in my machine, because the joints still fit together very well. Typically, when there are errors, they just won't go together at all.
But I went through the g-code, and found a few errors in my toolpaths, which were off between .002"-.004" in some places. I should have this fixed up today.

Big of you to admit that here.
Good to know for me that my eye for detail did not fail me, and even better that you got it sorted !

[ger21]

Have a website up, and should be ready to go sometime within the next week.

http://g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

[racedirector]

Excellent Gerry, money at the ready as soon as the ???? become numbers :)

[ger21]

After nearly two years, the wait is finally over.

http://g-forcecnc.com/jc_purchase.html

[racedirector]

Excellent, as soon as my machine starts to make dust I will be grabbing a copy!

[Robert M]

GREAT NEWS...Thanks for giving “birth” to this great tool!
Sorry for not helping more....
Wishing you business success with it.
Later, Robert ;)

[pblackburn]

I don't know if I will ever use it but your help to myself and others warranted a purchase.
Thanks Ger.

[alan254]

just ordered mine

looking forward to using

thanks al

[ger21]

Thanks for the support, guys. :)

[AuS MaDDoG]

Just ordered mine too :D

Looking forward to getting the time to play with this awesome piece of software.
Great work Gerry.

Thanks
Tony.

[darren salyer]

Just saw its now available. Headed off to work, but I'll get a copy headed my way this weekend.
Great job, Gerry.

[Andrew_standen]

Just ordered mine.
Great work Gerry.
Thanks
Andrew

[ger21]

Now that I have dovetails finished (except for some minor bug fixes), I started playing around with box joints. Probably a few months away, but I wanted to cut a test to see how they'd come out.

[Robert M]

Much looking forward for this one too ;)

[AuS MaDDoG]

Looking good Gerry :)
Cheers
Tony

[digger]

Ger, looks great.
Are you planning to do something about Knapp joint too?

[ger21]

Had to Google that one.
No, I probably won't be doing that one.
But I do plan on a rounded finger joint, which is a little bit similar.

http://leighjigs.ru/images/companies/5/ROUNDED_HALF-BLIND_FINGER_Joint.jpg

http://www.leighjigs.com/data/1054938350.jpg

[ger21]

Here's the assembled joint from above. I think I have the standard box joints finished, just have to fix the preview that I broke when I got everything else working.

[ger21]

Been working on this for the last month or so. Found a minor issue when I cut this, but should be releasing a new version soon.

[Robert M]

Looking good !
nice to know these variable.....as I've yet realty tried it / pushed it sins I bought it :o

[ger21]

I know a few of you have had issues with the JointCAM interface, due to the use of large font settings in Windows.
I've uploaded a new test version that now scales all of the controls to the window size, allowing you to make the window bigger to fit everything. I've only changed the Config and round box joint sections, but I'd appreciate any feedback on it.
I'll be moving forward on redesigning the entire interface. The scaling issue will only become more common as more people move to higher resolution displays, which often require larger font sizes to make text legible.