Machine now cutting!....Seahorses! - Skopje,Macedonia

[Pajka]

First greetings to all,
otherwise I'm from Macedonia and I want to publicly praise Danilo # 64 and say that he is the man who encouraged me to try to make MM.
Thank you Danilo.
Building on my machine are likely longer than what we're used to seeing here on the forum because of my engagement in the workplace.However I will try not to last forever and normal to share the experience with you.Just to mention that I have sufficient knowledge in this area and hopefully help and suggestions from you guys.
P.S.If I'm wrong somewhere in writing this is because I never studied English.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
See you soon hopefully.

[KenC]

Welcome!
Take your time to build. With Danilo in your neighbourhood, you can't go wrong :)

[Pajka]

Thank you Ken.
Here are the first purchased parts needed for my adventure(at this point I'm scared to tell you for my MM so I will call this my adventure because I do not have enough knowledge in this area ):o
I know that house is not built from the roof but I had to start somewhere and even from the roof.:)
I bought two pieces ABB VFD because planning to put two Z axes in the Y trolley.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.2329765678070.261114.1067550153&type=3#!/photo.php?fbid=2329775038304&set=a.2329765678070.261114.1067550153&type=3&theater

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.2329765678070.261114.1067550153&type=3#!/photo.php?fbid=2329775398313&set=a.2329765678070.261114.1067550153&type=3&theater

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.2329765678070.261114.1067550153&type=3#!/photo.php?fbid=2329765878075&set=a.2329765678070.261114.1067550153&type=3&theater

These days I plan to purchase by DEITECH two spindles DTS-23 2,2KW.
Ask for opinion?:confused:

[Pajka]

I learned how to attach photos:)
I think this is better.
12537

12538

12539

[KenC]

Go for 3KW if your budget allows.

[Pajka]

Ken,do you think that 2.2kw not enough for processing of aluminum composite panels with 4mm thick?

[smreish]

Should be fine.....2.2Kw should do that easily. My 1.5HP router does.

[KenC]

For Aluminium composite, that should be enough.

[Pajka]

My Waterjet Cut and Bent Parts finally arrived.Will post the pics very soon.
Currently I have a dilemma and seek advice.
Ordering engines DEITECH series model 86HS9802 (http://www.driver-motor.com/ProductContent.aspx?ID=47) 2.4mH and ask for advice on which driver to decide DM556 or DM856 (http://www.driver -motor.com/ProductList.aspx? CID = 5).
Will anyone help guys about this?

[Pajka]

Problems starting now,
see just how awry.
one he rolled it certain that he was drunk or first time doing this.

[Pajka]

Here are all parts and all that are bent must to intervene or to correct them.:mad:

[Pajka]

Here's what happens these days:)

[Pajka]

more:)

[Pajka]

& more;)

[Pajka]

finally arrived and shipping from DEITECH CHINA

[Pajka]

back problems, 200/75mm DIN standard deformed to maximum and I forced myself to dig up the snow and find some better.
(that's our kind sellers):mad::mad::mad:

[Pajka]

welding base table,
And who would have turned upside down now this monster,:D

[MetalHead]

Great progress pics !! Keep up the great work !!

[Pajka]

Thanks Mike.

[Pajka]

Bushings and V Bearings made and strengthened (tempered).

[Pajka]

No loctite.

[TechGladiator]

Nicely done !!

[Pajka]

Snow has less candle so we decided to get out to paint.I decided tell to you more through the pictures then through talking (due to my poor knowledge of English language):o

[Pajka]

Work are flowing

[Pajka]

If you are wondering why I do not have any photos of my V rails it is because the subject has eaten my nerves.
In the end I was happy with 0.3mm tolerance.

[Pajka]

Нека каже некој ве молам дека е 0.3мм како што треба.
Ќе ми значи многу.:)

[Pajka]

Opsss-translate
Let somebody please tell that the 0.3mm tolerance for V rails is OK.
I'll mean a lot

[timberlinemd]

If your saying you have a .3mm tolerance in height (.0118") then shim with soda can strips. If between rails loosen bolts and adjust with a mallet.

[JamesJ]

Pajka
The link below describes a straightforward way to align your rail height and straightness.

http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3440

[Pajka]

Thanks guys.

[Pajka]

Again working on the case

[Pajka]

double Z

[javeria]

2 Z is pretty cool

[smreish]

#58 is like that too. 2 z's, 2x the fun!

[obuhus]

How you the plan to operate 2 axes z under Mach3? It will be analog of ATC?

[Pajka]

Dear Dmitry,
my knowledge in this area are not great and that is one reason that my building goes so slow. I decided to finish all mechanical parts and then to devote to me unknown part of this adventure (electronics and Mach3).Making the machine primarily for cutting and grooving of aluminum composite panels(wall cladding).It is a process that is difficult to operate manually and due to high prices of CNC routers decided without much knowledge of this issue to try to do something that makes our job easier.Processing of aluminum composite panels are mainly used two cutters (cutting and grooving) and so I decided to be 2 Z axes.I am aware that Mach3 can control up to 2 Z axis (or I'm wrong).Thank you and all of you on the forum from which we(ignorant) can learn a lot.Rarely can there be such a good site as MECHMATE forum and also good people who are responsible for maintaining it.If I understand you, do you want to tell me that I have even the option of choosing a method of management of both Z axes.I hope you will help me in this part of the building to me unknown.Thanks in advance.

[Axel1966]

Hi Pajka.
Your two spindles won't be able to run at the same time, anyway.
Through, the G-code generation might be a real problem, IMO.
Just a think : what about a simple tool changer ?
It might be less expensive than a double Z, and very easy to manage with any software.
The time spent in tool changing is not that much.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyOeBSMyiAw

[Pajka]

Axel,
first spindle will cut and second one will V-groove.It is not possible to do that at the same time,I know that.My idea was to not waste time to change cutters for any sheet loaded on the machine.I hope that Im not wrong with construction(my idea was:first to groove and after that to cut parts with second spindle.)Can you confirm whether this is possible?

[Axel1966]

Well, i'm far to be a specialist.
Some machines have two toolheads, but mounted on the same Z axis.
(A spindle and a Plasma, for example).
Some other machines have duplicate Z axis (to cut several boards at the same time),
it's just duplicating an axis with an offset.

With two Z axis, i guess the problem might be to generate comprehensible g-code
with conventional software.
You're exploring something undone yet.
That does not mean it's impossible to do.
Just you will have no source to refer on, and you'll walk alone in the dark.

With an automatic tool changer, changing a tool will take maybe 10-15 seconds waisted.
It is not an important factor in a production environment.
You can spend much more time in loading and unloading your table.

Most of the best production machines have a tool changer.
I can't remember any example with a two Z axis technology.
Any software can manage the tool changing abilities in two clics.
And your needs may change from two tools to 3 or more in future applications.

I appreciate you have already bought and mount two Z axis. :(
But i'm affraid you'll face more problems than solutions this way.
(Don't forget the second Z is valuable and can be sold...)

Maybe I'm wrong, if anyone have a fast solution to your problem, he will talk.
If you have no awnser in this way, you'll have to solve the problem by yourself.

[baseball43v3r]

I think it would be pretty easy to cut a profile and then v-groove with a dual head. first cut out with your profile head, raise that head, center in and lower your v-groove head, 0 out your axis's and cut the same pattern with a v-groove? I'm sure you'll have to do some tinkering to get the precise location of the first head, but if you measure the distance between the two heads to a precise amount, you can move the router that amount and get a pretty accurate location.

[Guillermo]

Hi Paika

I am farther to be specialist but if your MM is going exclusively to cut and grove

aluminum composite panels. Configure the two Z axis motors as the X axis motors.

While one runs CW the other runs CCW so when one spidle goes up the other goes down.

[danilom]

I personally advised Pajka to go with dual Z, dual spindle setup.
As it can be operated by a simple button and offset in Mach3. And I kindly ask some of the members not to give advises like this so fast without previous knowledge , oooh what a mistake, sell the second spindle etc...

If you ever get a chance to see work with alubond, you will soon see what a pain it is to constantly change bits! It cuts relatively fast, first all the V groves for bending are cut, then cut out with 4mm endmill. So think of a daily routine of cutting 15-20 boards 1.25x4m. That equals to 30-40 toolchanges, each one can't be done lets say under a minute as you have to unscrew the nut, put the new one, tighten and zero the Z. So what are you doing is wasting around 40mins everyday (maybe even count in collets and nut wear a bit).
Alubond cutting usualy equals to minimum of 15eur a board (3eur per sq.meter) and around 30eur per hour in Serbia. So you lose at least 20eur every production day on toolchanges.

After a month that equates to minimum of 400 eur, so it nearly PAYS off a spindle and vfd in a month. Not everyone here is for the hobby, I learned in last two years a lot and try to give a best possible advice to my friends and other. For alubond processing, dual Z setup is a best and cheapest toolchanger as you only need two bits.

In the end, here is one cnc machine made specially for alubond panels:
http://www.kontakt.co.rs/alu.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZGgB8HVnVzQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=l6YGp5PXCg8

p.s. when the machine gets operational I will post about usage of dual Z here in forum and a video.

[Axel1966]

I will be interested to read about dual Z management. Realy.

I feel confident Paika have you by his side to help him.
There's all the chances to succeed now.
No need to any other advice. It's OK. ;)

It's true I have no experience on small shops business.
And I will probably never have any.
I just work for the third european POS manufacturer,
We transform 15 tons of steel and various materials each year, glass, plastic, wood...
All our robots have tool changers (except the laser cutters and the tube benders), and the tool changing is realy fast.
DIY changers can be fast too. There's many examples. It's just what I wana say.

Well, i'm far to be a specialist.
(...)
That does not mean it's impossible to do.
(...)
With an automatic tool changer, changing a tool will take maybe 10-15 seconds waisted. It is not an important factor in a production environment.
In our business, with tool changers, a single operator is able to manage alone several machines, just to load/unload and run program. It's the most economic way we've found. Only savings and performance.
(...)
(Don't forget the second Z is valuable and can be sold...)
Maybe my english is bad, I'm sorry if I was missunderstood. I just wana say it's possible to change up his mind someday, if needed.P.S. My MechMate will not be for hobby. Just for prototyping. That can bring money too. ;)

[domino11]

From what I have read, tool changers can be costly to the DIY guy. Spindles that have tool change capability are expensive. I think that the dual Z setup will be less costly in the long run.

[KenC]

If accuracy of below 0.05mm is what you are after, a ATC is the way to go.
Not only an tool changing capable spindle is expensive to buy, it is also expensive to maintain. for one, you need to purchase a battery of chuck heads.... & $$$ keep clicking...
Dual spindle set up is one economical way to have 2 bit changing capability in a hurry. The only draw back is accuracy. but than again, do you seriously need 0.1mm precision for you jobs??? Even metal machine center is happy with +/- .1mm tolerance in mass production condition.

[Regnar]

Ok I will bite. For the dual Z axis management would it be as simple as modding one post proccessor. Turn the Z axis commands in to A axis commands and add an offset like g55 at the beginning? Only thing you would have to worry about in my mind is picking the right Post Processor for the tool size.

I have no experience but my intrest is peaked.

[smreish]

I am certain that the CAM software has a way to do this (Lazy Cam at the time did not), personally, when I used my second axis it was dedicated for a single tool purpose. What this means is I edited the GCode directly in the Mach 3 window to use the alternate A or B axis for the Z post processing. IT was really easy to find in the code, because I would allow for the code window in Mach to prompt for manual tool change - and edit on the fly if small parts, or change the whole program and save in the text file. Truly, a really large file, that cut out an entire cabinet set, took about 15 minutes to edit in the text window.

OR - later in the double z evolution, I changed out the z-slide gas strut for a small bore air cylinder with hard stops and triggered via the BOB relay for up/down cycle only for drilling. This made the cycle rate very fast for drilling. This was used as a drilling fixture (like a 5mm drill pins for shelving with a real drill bit in the second spindle/router/drill motor)

[Pajka]

Finished belt reductions,painted y car,some work on stop blocks

[Pajka]

Many thanks to danilo for reduction plates files!

[Pajka]

Preparing for painting

[Pajka]

Y car painted

[Pajka]

Reached and the machine for drilling but after all the operations that I needed for.

[danilom]

Just to say that I am having great time in Macedonia helping Angelko (Pajka) in wiring and Mechmate assembly. This is what we have done in past few days.

Tomorrow we expect to get some movement and fine tune the machine.

Here are some pictures, more to come when we are finished !

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/makedonija/IMG_1917%20(Medium).JPG

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/makedonija/IMG_1922%20(Medium).JPG

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/makedonija/IMG_1923%20(Medium).JPG

[danilom]

Here is the video of the machine in action !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epHduC92NlY

Camera ... Sound ... Chips fly !



http://cnc.rs/mechmate/makedonija/IMG_1929%20(Medium).JPG


http://cnc.rs/mechmate/makedonija/IMG_1930%20(Medium).JPG

[Kalmfist]

:D :o

Честитки !!!!

Well done boys!
That is some a__ kicking!
Great news after hot, hell hot vacation!

Поздрав Данило, со среќа Пајка.

[Guillermo]

Hi Pajka.

Nice to see your machine in action

How did yow finally solve the twin Z axis management.

[Surfcnc]

Congratulations Pajka and Danilo.

Your build logic for the 2 spindle Z axis is faultless for the specialised alubond processing.
It also provides a degree of double redundancy if a spindle or VFD was to fail.

The control box is perfect with plenty of space.
If I had my time over I would use something just like it. Thanks for the video too.

Regards
Ross

[KenC]

Congrats!
That is a beautiful machine you built.
Any thoughts on duct collection?

[danilom]

Twin Z is managed by Mach3 directly from software. Also the Aspire post-processor had to be altered to some degree to call certain Mach macros on start and end to revert from one or another Z.

When tool 2 is called it swaps Z and B axis apply the XY offsets and goes to work.

Ken, dust collection will be solved very soon as I gave some advice to Pajka how to mount it.
Ross, the control box is 800x800 but far from plenty of space. Drives had to be stacked pretty close (but we have a 120mm 220V AC fan directly on them so no problems)
And the two VFDs are right next to each other. Its all packed so a little more room would be nice.
Pajka wanted real industrial look of the inside so we used big channels and some nice big relays :) , switches and contactors for all and lights outside the box.

[KenC]

~the control box is 800x800 but far from plenty of space.~

Another proof that control panel is never big enough... even with a 800x800 box is not big enough! LOL!!!:cool:

[darren salyer]

THAT is very cool.
Thanks for the video.
I happen to have all the necessary components for a dual Z laying around....
An air drill for shelf pin holes would be the bomb.
I'm curious about dust collection as well.

[silverdog]

A very clever solution, with 2 bits you can do most of the complicated things simulating an auto tool change but without the cost which is far higher and maybe also less fast.
Are you using Mach3 with two break out boards ? ( I see you are not using Gecko's drives)
ciao
Sergio

[danilom]

Yes Mach3 and two bob's so we can have more IO pins.

The drives are digital Leadshine drives DM856, work flawless, motors spin smooth and very silent.

[marko cro]

Just to say that I am having great time in Macedonia helping Angelko (Pajka) in wiring and Mechmate assembly. This is what we have done in past few days.

Tomorrow we expect to get some movement and fine tune the machine.

Here are some pictures, more to come when we are finished !

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/makedonija/IMG_1923%20(Medium).JPG

Could not avoid to see the R2D2 in the picture. Now I know why it is build so fast and so precise!!!

[danilom]

C3P0 was just around the corner :)

It's a shop vac they used but will be replaced with a cyclone. Pajka needs all the help he can get so we are daily in contact.

I hope to travel to Macedonia once again this year to speed up their learning curve.

[Pajka]

works like a clock

[Alan_c]

Very nice! - looks very professional.

[KenC]

SOOOOO spacious!!!

[Noobstomper]

What was the total cost overall?

[zumergido]

wow,, you even have room for a toilet con that cabinet. nice work.

[Kalmfist]

well Pajka,

there months since you build the two mouthed monster

Please show us some of your work, and share some experience.

[sensei]

Hi Pajka.....can you tell me how is Deitech 2.2kw spindel performinging

[Pajka]

I am very pleased with their work.I think they are great for the money I paid for them.

[sensei]

I amon the way to buy one of these from driver-motor.com for 238$ and Vfd for 160$.....how much is your ABB VFd

[Pajka]

2 pieces 700EUR (Made in Germany).

[sensei]

Did you test the spindel on plywood?

[Pajka]

Not yet.

[danilom]

But I have, you can see my work in my thread

http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2617

[sensei]

Импресиониран сам , Данило....:))))

[Pajka]

done these days after a long break

[Pajka]

ММ is a good machine

[Pajka]

perspex

[MetalHead]

Cool - Do you have a logo on your machine !! Congrats on getting it cutting !!!

[javeria]

Hello - What vacuum pump are you using for hold down.

[Pajka]

Pump with water ring,5.5 kw will arrive on Monday.Will inform how it works after installation.

[Pajka]

Thanks Mike,still not but soon will have.

[gorantec]

Wow this is excelent machine !!!

Прекрасна машина со среќа !!!

[Pajka]

Thanks my friend.

[pblackburn]

Looks like you are having fun with the projects from the Vectric newsletters. Great job by the way.

[danilom]

there is more than fun happening at their workshop when I am around :)

like this:

http://cnc.rs/images/img_2301%20medium.jpg


and this:
http://youtu.be/MYkiH0CjJS4

7 meters long , 500mm high acrylic led light letters, with custom controller from me.
After being mounted expect more pictures of letters and ACM facade.

[pblackburn]

But if it was not fun, you would not be doing it. Right?

[pblackburn]

How did you go about the lighting? Individually controlled through a controller but is there a letter cutout and the letter inserted in it and the wiring from the back? Great video

[Hardouin]

Hello !

Thank you for sharing your great work !

Could you tell us dimensions of your MechMate ?

[Pajka]

1500/3200mm working area

[danilom]

Its led strip with sticky tape behind so its just cut to segments placed on the back of the letter and then soldered individual segments inside the letter.

[pblackburn]

Danilo,
Sorry for the late reply. Thanks so much for the info. It is always nice to see how people do things.

[Hardouin]

Hello !

Could you tell us which breakout boards did you choose ?
Are you satisfied with them ?

Hardouin

[pblackburn]

PMDX-126 breakout board with the PDMX-134 motherboard. I have two parallel ports to the board to utilized the full features of the board. It gave me the option of using the PMDX-108 and PMDX-109 later if I wished to. The 126 also allows me to add a 5th drive for my 4th axis. The board has not caused me any problems and I am pleased with it's performance.

[HomeMadeCnc]

Very nice job!

[danilom]

After one more visit to my friends in Macedonia, these are the new additions

Massive chinese two spindle router (yaskawa servos , 6hp HSD spindles)

http://www.cnc.rs/mechmate/Weihong.jpg


Trusty MechMate is still right beside this beast

http://www.cnc.rs/mechmate/Weihong%20and%20mm.jpg


But improved with CS-Labs ethernet CSMIO IP/S 6 axis motion control and redesigned control cabinet

http://www.cnc.rs/mechmate/Mechmate%20CSMIO.jpg