Cool Panel Cover Logo #107 - Dakovo, Croatia

[marko cro]

Hello people,

I have plans for couple of years and now is the time for start building one. I must admit that these are very excited times for me.
I have ordered step motors and drill.
Outer dimension will be 3000 x 2000 mm.
Only thing which I cant come to is the V wheels, which I need in correct dimensions.

drill: http://www.ebay.com/itm/220724876745?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_10547wt_1139
steppers: http://www.ebay.com/itm/200625722122?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_4758wt_1410

If anyone has any info about these V -Wheels, please , write here or you can sen me PP.
Also, any helpfull information, please dont be shy :D

Marko

[baseball43v3r]

I can help with this one! most of the builders are using v-wheels supplied by Rick from Superior Bearing. the thread is located here
http://mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=288#post288
Best of Luck to you in your build.

[MetalHead]

He does ship all over the world. You can also machine them yourself and press in standard bearing. OH Yeah - Welcome back and we are looking forward to your build !!

[marko cro]

Thank you :)
I hope it will be done this year, but if not, at january should be working.
I am very interested how to DIY. Will look into it today.
Thanks

[marko cro]

I was wondering what are the thoughts about the steppers and drill?
thanks

[danilom]

Spindle (not drill) is ok, but a bad combination with chinese low quality VFD.

Also choose stepper motors with smaller inductance , less then 5 is ok. You pointed to ones with 15mH, same as Casi (friend from Kosovo), you can wait and see what is his experience because he allready has them. Look here:
http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3437&highlight=casi

Look for what others used and threads about motors. All new members make that mistake everyone looks at torque rating, read more about inductance and voltage which gives you higher RPM needed on a router.

You can make wheels on a lathe, easier on a cnc lathe as I did.

[marko cro]

Hello my balkan friend.
I belive my drivers are much stronger than ones he has.
I have a power supply of 48 vdc. I think that our friend from kosovo had the unbalanced drivers/steppers/and power supply.
From the point of precision, I think i havent overkilled with the power/percision ratio, coz I dont want to have a powerfull, but unprecise machine cutting for me.
I was looking for a review of these engines, and it should satisfy but of my needs.
I am interested in DIY wheels, but I will send you PP for details.

[danilom]

Stepper motor speed has nothing to do with Amps or power, you can not get proper RPM out of undervoltage motor.

Maximum voltage is calculated with Mariss from Geckodrive , formula:

32 * sqrt (inductance)

in your case its 124V ... so 48 won't do it, better aim at 70V DC, the drives in that package can use up to 80V.
Also the unregulated PSU is far simpler and you can make it for a price that you sell the existing 8amp 48V psu in the package.

read some of it here
http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1114

7. If you want the motor to be compatible with a certain range of drives, the motor inductance must match. For Geckodrives, the inductance must typically be somewhere between 1.5 and 6mH. (The Gecko 250/540 wants around 3mH). Very low inductance motors cannot be driven properly by Gecko's, while very high inductance motors need very high voltage drives that are not easy to obtain.

[marko cro]

With a help from my friend, I started to desing the table and the rest of the machine.
It was designed in solidowks and its almost complete.
here are some pictures of table design.
Comments are welcome :D

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/1937/stolcina3.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/404/stolcina3.jpg/)
and a high ress photo :
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/832/stolcina3.jpg/

[revved_up]

The X beams are both facing with the opening in the channel to the right instead of having the open sides of the channel facing to the inside.

[smreish]

Craig,
I think he is using I beam (w shape) - thus open flange on both sides. Good eye! Those using a C channel like the plans dictate often get that orientation wrong.

Sean

[marko cro]

Yes, I am planning to use I shape, with flat I profile, not bended.
This table is 380 kg in weight, and still its very light.
Here are some additional pictures of the MM.
Z car : http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6830/1040014.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/59/1040014.jpg/)
X Car : http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/40/kran2r.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/405/kran2r.jpg/)
http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/1395/krantest.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/191/krantest.jpg/)
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2255/lezaj.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/338/lezaj.jpg/)
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/3449/m510150zmotor2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/502/m510150zmotor2.jpg/)

Most of these part were designed from blueprints from my friend Turpija(Rasp), who was a great help.

[smreish]

The only comment I have is you show in the Z-slide picture only 4 bearings. The spider assembly will work with only 4, but if you utilize the mamba series drawings, the extra 2 bearings will allow a longer retraction of the z-slide, which in turn is a more usable area under gantry for cutting deep parts.

[casi]

Yes I have the same stepper like you Biker with 15mh as Danilo said but I have buy these before notified with the builders here .
I've tested these but do not know how to function in machine .
If I was notified before purchasing , I had to choose like most of the boys here .
(I apologize for my english:))

[rischoof]

Biker,
your drawings are beautiful but I saw that you asked the possibility of machining v groove bearings yourself so here my experience and finall advise

I started to make the V wheels myself in Taiwan. The raison was that I could not buy them here, It was the only item that I not found. in local stores
I have an emco compact 8 lath so I decided to make them myself. so here my plan and the problems I run into.

First I bought slices of steel. 55mm outside whit a hole from 25 mm and 20 mm thick I bought 16 slices for approx 6 euro all
then I bought the bearings to measure the dimensions exactly so I could determine the final thickness of the slices and the diameter of the hole where the bearing has to fit. The first bearings I would install was the z 6001 inner hole 12 outer size 28 mm. brand Nachi, they are cheap here about 1 euro each.
the thickness of the bearings is 8 mm so the thickness of the slices has to become 16 mm.

First I machines the slices exactly 16 mm +/- 0.02 mm to be able to do this I installed measurement gauges with a magnet holder on he lath. the reason to do this accurate is that I was able to reverse the slices to make the v groove in them.

second I machined the side grooves back to a diameter of 35 mm

third I machined the inner diameter to 31.99 +/- 0.01
measure the outside from the bearings to be able to make a press fit fiting

4th I installed the bearings. Then I find out that it was a problem to get the two bearings in line. so I changed the two 6001 bearings by one 5201 bearing they are around 4 euro here from nachi. There outer diameter is 32 mm so I had to rework all the holes

5th I installed the bearings with locktide heavy strength install fluid, I forgot the locktide number, and yes it is very strength, I had to press out a bearing and I had to use heat and operate the press with 2 people to get the bearing out

6th I made a mandrill with a size of 12 mm to be able to place the pre machined slices back on the lath and machine the groove with the centre as the bearing The bearings are placed on the 12mm mandrill and clamped with a very large washer and nut to jaws of the lath head.

7th I tried to machine a small groove in the middle.
But If you read carefully I wrote tried.
The force to machine the grove was that big that the mandrill get out of position in the lath head, so I made the mandrill again to be sure the 12 mm axle is exactly centred.
My plan was to place the slide in a 45 degree position and machine half of the v groove, then my plan was to turn the slice and machine the other half of the v groove. That was the reason I machined the thickness from the slices precisely.

I spent a couple of evenings behind my lath but I was not capable to machine the v grooves.

Finally I bring them to a machine shop to ask if they could machine the V grooves

My conclusion: next time I need V groove bearings, Eric from superior bearings is my man. Than I also know that they are made from the correct material and hardness. time spent to get the materials and trying to machine them is not worth the price benefit in my case

Or I have to improve my lath skills.................http://www.mechmate.com/forums/images/icons/icon11.gif

[marko cro]

Hi Rik,

Thank you for your insight in the DY V wheels. With help of Danilo, I have managed to get it for a very good price and in good quality. I will put some pictures of the parts which Danilo send me from Serbia.
Thank you Danilo one more.

[Gerald D]

Rik, it is important to make both sides of the V-groove, and the bearing hole right through, with one "clamping" of the wheel on a 35mm step. Your big mistake was to use both 35mm steps and to try and work from 2 sides.

[marko cro]

As the plans goes on, I am trying to find out what should be the distance in the picture.
Thanks
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/6996/yrailrazmak.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/502/yrailrazmak.png/)

[smreish]

Closer to 19mm overhang
The rack is approx. 13mm wide, and you need a little clearance on the back side between the rack and the main member for variances in the main member straightness.

[marko cro]

Thanks,

Will change in design :D

[danilom]

metric rack Modul 1 is 15x15mm

[aniljangra]

Rik, it is important to make both sides of the V-groove, and the bearing hole right through, with one "clamping" of the wheel on a 35mm step. Your big mistake was to use both 35mm steps and to try and work from 2 sides.

Rik, I made the rollers on small lathe without much problem, the only difficult part was removing a lot of metal on this small lathe as I started with thicker slices than required. You can look for few hints in the picture here http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=31961&postcount=23

The tricky part is to get the V groves correct, for this I used 2 operations (without removing the wheel from mandrel of course). I used one bit to make the groove to approx size and then another BIT (carefully grounded to exact angle) to just finish the groove. As the angle on all of the wheels are correct the little difference in depth doesn't matter (Gerald provided enough opportunities for adjustments in the design)

The tool post was always at exact 90 deg and never disturbed in between two operations in the groove making process. Actually I made the quick change tool post just for the reason :) without this quick change tool post I can't imagine I would have got it correct.

Good luck and may be you should try once more

Anil

[marko cro]

Another question/opinion.
Rack and pinion ratio. I will put a pinion diameter of 26/24 mm, with 24 teeth.
With reduction 3.6:1 @ 900 RPM, will get around 30 cm per sec.
1st plan is to go to direct drive and DIY reduction. But I will see if I can get it right away to reduction.

[danilom]

18m/min is satisfactory, you wont be cutting anything at that speed :)

[KenC]

Before you start cutting anything at 18m/min. Do build a 5ton table for it & anchor your MM on the floor permanently.

[marko cro]

I know it wont be possible, but empty space could go that speed. I think it will be satisfactory even at 150 mm sec. That also could be 2 high ?!?

[KenC]

what are you cutting :eek: ? paper?

[marko cro]

Relax dude, I am still working the calculations. What is your machine working speed?

[KenC]

1000~4000mm/min depending on material, bits, depth of cut & required finishing.

[marko cro]

Another quick render of the machine
Still waiting for the metal pipes to start welding
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/5564/17122011x3.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/405/17122011x3.jpg/)

[Kobus_Joubert]

Check your table OFFSET. It needs to be a bit longer on one side to compensate for the rouer / spindle to reach each edge.

[marko cro]

Hello again,

I was wondering what thickness of the cable should I use for drivers? I have a several options, but dont want to overkill it.
What should be the profile of the cables.
About offset, did you mean the offset of the spindle? Here is the pic which could help.
I think I should move it more towards the end.
http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/5151/kranb.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/688/kranb.jpg/)

[baseball43v3r]

Marko, notice how the router does not sit in the center of the y-car. The table offset means that one end of the table needs more clearance than the other (ie the beams need to be longer) to be able to reach the end of your cutting area.

As to your answer on cable thickness I believe this thread holds the answers. http://mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2

but its usually around 18 AWG. (i think)

[aniljangra]

I made that mistake and later had to weld small pieces of beams to the ends :) thankfully I did not cut the rails to exact length of beams before I noticed the mistake.

[danilom]

You can use 4 core shielded, 1.0mm2 - 0.75mm2 per core for motors.
For the spindle 1.5-2.0mm2 should be sufficient

[marko cro]

Finally all the parts are here.
Just waiting to my shoulder to get better and welding will begin.

http://www.pohrani.com/t/1b/Ct/1JsCxl8D/1/fxcam1329568427791.jpg (http://www.pohrani.com/?1b/Ct/1JsCxl8D/1/fxcam1329568427791.jpg)
http://www.pohrani.com/t/O/pn/2f4mg0e4/1/fxcam1329569320626.jpg (http://www.pohrani.com/?O/pn/2f4mg0e4/1/fxcam1329569320626.jpg)
http://www.pohrani.com/t/43/AM/v2t5nYj/1/fxcam1329569352864.jpg (http://www.pohrani.com/?43/AM/v2t5nYj/1/fxcam1329569352864.jpg)

[Axel1966]

Very Nice 3D views ! I wish mine looks as good as yours.
Pre-mounting in 3D helps me a lot in the understanding of the MM pinciples.
I wish you the best for your build ! :)

[marko cro]

Thank you,

And it really does help a lot when you have something build in 3d, its much easier to understand where and how things go and connect.
With SW, i can determine the weight, very accurate measures so it can fit perfectly to the workshop.

[marko cro]

Drilling has started, and some new parts arrived.
design
http://www.pohrani.com/f/o/Up/3sYYuhW6/nosac.png
Cant beat the real look.
http://www.pohrani.com/f/9/Ub/1PTaNtfv/nosac-2.jpg
http://www.pohrani.com/f/1H/A7/48hbBKho/fxcam1332064970976.jpg

[Axel1966]

Is there any benefit to use anti-vibrations feets instead of 100% metal ones ?

[marko cro]

Dont know, but there is an option to add rubber bottom on these feets. If the vibrations turns out to be a problem.

[Gerald D]

Most people use them because they look sexy. Firm contact to the floor would be better in terms of cut quality. However, they reduce vibrations transmitted to the floor and reduce noise.

[Axel1966]

Good ! The cutting quality is the main goal, so I'll save money with simple feets,
which are 4 times cheaper. Thanks.

[marko cro]

Gerald, I have a question in private for you, but cant send you message.
Can we get in contact in any other way than this?

[marko cro]

This is planning side ladder and fixing it up.
Below is my 1st weld done on that ladder. My experience in welding has reached for about 3-4 days, 1-2 hours per day. So I am pretty proud on that weld.
Rest of the welding is in the same or similar quality :D
http://s17.postimage.org/cqgtix3un/image.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
image upload (http://postimage.org/)
http://s17.postimage.org/mcezcyke7/image_1.jpg (http://postimage.org/)
upload images (http://postimage.org/)

[TechGladiator]

Good Job there Marko. Starting to take shape.!!

[darren salyer]

Very nice work!!

[bolingerbe]

Good job.

[marko cro]

I was wondering where is my thread :)
Thank you all,
Today all the front and side ladder will be finished, then moving on to the assembly it with trestle.
Will post more pics at the end of the day.

[Axel1966]

Well(d) done !
You have some nice tools to clamp tubes squared.

[marko cro]

Thanks,

That tool made my life much easier. Regreted tho for not buying 8 of them :D
Here are some pics from today work done. I have put it together just to get perspective. And it looks massive.
http://www.pohrani.com/f/2t/qb/3MrpZo1U/camerazoom-2012032814230.jpg
http://www.pohrani.com/f/13/qE/aUQMRj/camerazoom-2012040121204.jpg
http://www.pohrani.com/f/3f/5T/4i4iSm5f/camerazoom-2012040121223.jpg
After working its important to clean the work area, coz my workshop is a bit small :(
http://www.pohrani.com/f/2R/e8/3gkHqAUK/camerazoom-2012040121285.jpg
Resting proudly at work being done
http://www.pohrani.com/f/2R/e8/3gkHqAUK/camerazoom-2012040121285.jpg

[marko cro]

DIY aluminium control box. To build it, I had to make a tin knocker/bender, which is made from MM parts. Proof of concept, and it works.
Control box needs back enforcement in the back panel with some 150x150x15 aluminum plates. Heating wont be an issue here :D .
Holes and ventilation will be drilled additionally. But so far, a decent box.
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/1.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/2.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/3.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/4.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/5.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/7.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/8.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/9.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/10.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/11.jpg

[WTI]

I think it would have been cool to put a piece of tempered glass in the face of your door.

[marko cro]

Yes, tempered glass for a spindle controller, and a hole for a digital thermometer.
Also, for buttons, and E switch.
Thanks for noticing :D

[Pajka]

Great work marko!

[KenC]

Nice box.
With the VFD in such close proximity to the motor drivers, I hope you have good grounding lay up later.

[IN-WondeR]

There's no problem in having a VFD that close to the drives.
My old machine was also mounted close to the drives, I had no noise what so ever from the VFD..

My new machine has 15cm more distance to the drives, and again, absolutely no problems with noise.

[marko cro]

Not sure will I have noise, but I was thinking of making additional box for spindle control, with air flow connected IN and OUT to outside of the workshop, due the dust accumulation.
In the calibration phase, I shall see if there will be noise.
Also, I am looking for a good plan for a spindle mount, which should be made of aluminum.
EDIT: I am looking for cutting aluminum, how does a MM act in engraving and cutting aluminium.
Does my spindle speed @ 24000 RPM is 2 much to cut it. Would be the Z-car too light for a aluminium, and should I fill it with sand :).

[smreish]

Marko,
Many have successfully cut aluminum on a regular basis. One machine, a 8' x 21' machine was built to cut primarily alum sheet for a boat manufacturing business here in the US.

[marko cro]

Hi Sean, Thank you for your post. The plan was to work with aluminium and wood, and some softer materials, and lately, i was starting to doubt the MM can work on aluminium.
I saw some videos and I think I will be fine in that area.

[danilom]

Cutting aluminium is not a problem, but cleanup of chips is, when you work with the machine every day.

[Kobus_Joubert]

I agree. Tried it once and decided wood chips smell better as well :D

[Axel1966]

I love your control box, congratulations for the bender, simple and efficient. :cool:

[marko cro]

Thanks guys :)
I am planning to make a cyclone to suck in the wood dust and chips(would be located in the attic), and make a tray inside the table with another cyclone to collect chips from aluminium.
On my checklist, along with a proper bender :).

[marko cro]

Another small update made today.
Grinder is ready and eager to work alone.
Here's a video
http://youtu.be/t210hoRXURs

[marko cro]

I have a small problem, have grinded the the X-rails to to total od more than 28 mm, I was meassuring form the inside of the rail to the desired top of the rail.
Is there some major changes I will have to make, or i can roll with it as it is?
here are the pictures:
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/image.png
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/image2.png

[Gerald D]

There can be some small problems that can be fixed later. I would leave the rails at 33mm.

(All the small problems together can be fixed in an hour)

[marko cro]

Ah thx Gerald,

If the problems are fixed in an hour, then its better to leave it like it is, coz to grind it back again, would take me whole day again.
Thanks again

[marko cro]

I must admit, that grinding rails a pain in the ars.
I am making adapters to grind it more easily. Just want to get one perfect line to level it, so i can start grinding 45 deg ones, but cant get it to work.
Will post some pictures tommorow.
A pain!!!

[Regnar]

Marko are you useing sandpaper or a grinding disk? 36 grit makes very short work of the grinding with no glazing.

[marko cro]

im using grinding disk, but it is wasted after od 20 mins of grinding so I am getting anoyed about it.
Will consider sandpaper disk, just to try it.

[KenC]

HAve a look at this (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=55984&postcount=24)

[Regnar]

Also have a look at this (http://mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=51047&postcount=143). Man are you in for a treat!

[marko cro]

Thanks guys,

Today I have made a sand paper grinding disc and in 40 mins, i have finished flat grinding to 0.1 mm accuracy.
Regular grinding discs are a very bad solution, and if not distracted too much, i belive sunday morning the rails will be finished.
So far I was looking for the flatest surface I could find, and after 10 adapters, I have seen in this links that I can use side of the "I" profile which is darn flat.
Tommorow will picture all the adapter I was making to get the rails as good as I want them.
This was a great help, coz I lost 8 days figuring out how to do it perfect, and now I got it. got drunked today to celebrate it. :D:D:D:D

[marko cro]

Another minor problem occurred,
The bending guy bed me this profile 10 20 451 to the wrong way/side.
So i guess the motor will be turned in opposite direction. But I dont see any problems there so far.
Can anyone confirm that its not a big deal?
Im trying to upload picture, but somehow i cant get it up.
It is the profile where the Y motor will be mounted.

[IN-WondeR]

It should make no difference what way it's bent, other than astethics.

[marko cro]

here are some pics of recent work.
Have a video of the manual mate somewhere, but will post it tommorow.
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05025_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05044_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05046_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05047_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05048_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05055_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05056_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05057_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05061_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05062_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05064_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05065_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05066_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05069_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05070_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05072_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05077_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05078_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05081_800x600.jpg

[Pajka]

NICE,(samo naprijed).

[marko cro]

Thank you Pajka
some motion captured
http://youtu.be/0dL5PgZIoG8

[marko cro]

I made a blog about the MM, while planning to acquire some missing parts.
http://lopataos.blogspot.com/

[marko cro]

Well, i need some help regarding the reduction belts and pulleys.
If anyone has any decent shop for these pulleys, and belts together, I would much appreciate.
The reduction casing and spindle holder will try to cut with friends wooden cnc, hope it will work.
was looking for something like this, http://www.ebay.com/itm/Flanged-15-Teeth-Synchronous-Drive-Belt-Timing-Pulley-/180942367669?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a21016bb5#ht_1474wt_1163
But there is no 45 teeth.
Also, I was planning to take 20 and 60 teeth, but Danilo told me that i need to make reduction casing bigger.
So if anyone has any plans about it, please share it.

[Surfcnc]

Hi Marko

You are very through, your numbered welds on the C Car show good attention to detail.

I also looked at your ebay source for pulleys but they did not have what my design called for.
Most people have used a 15 and 45 tooth pulley combination to get 3:1 reduction rather than your 20 and 60 tooth solution.

If designing your own belt reduction drives this link to a pulley belt length calculator will be very helpful http://www.sdp-si.com/cd/default.htm

The distance between the pulley centers will have an effect on the number of teeth that make contact on the smaller pulley.
There are limits to how far apart you might want to make the pulley centers as it can potentially interfere with clearances.
An example of this would be on the C Car motor extending below the bottom of the gantry tube.

There is a thread about belt reduction drives in Common Assemblies and Parts, Driving Mechanisms on this forum, you probably should read every word of it. http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=366

Regards
Ross

[marko cro]

Long time no see, but in the meantime i was working on my brain(finishing college), and lately working on my MM.
Thank you Ross, I decided not to go for now on reduction, but to build my own casing for reduction gears, maybe even pulleys.
Here is a short and stupid video done today with my MM.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afiYwoe2LnM

[Gerald D]

:):)

[Hardouin]

Hello Marko !


I am beginning building my MM (http://mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3930) and I am looking for a supplier for a laser parts kit. Could you tell me where did you find yours ?


Thank you !


Hardouin

[marko cro]

Hi Harduin,

I ordered it from Danilom from this forum. Maybe you can check it out, or there is someone closer then him.
Today's update:
Was working whole day, but it was worth it :). I hope tommorow to finish the grinding and getting ready for painting. Will be a fun day tommorow :D

http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/MM/DSC05181_450x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/MM/DSC05187_450x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/MM/DSC05192_450x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/MM/DSC05193_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/MM/DSC05195_450x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/MM/DSC05196_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/MM/DSC05198_450x600.jpg

[marko cro]

I encountered a problem while assembling spider plate wheels.
The distance center to center between holes for wheels is 131 instead of 132 like in plans. A benders error, its ok.
With eccentric bolts, i am still 4-5 mm short if the plate in the picture above is 100 mm.
I have the plans for a long time, were there any changes?
calculating the wheels, the spider plate and everything, there is no way that the wheels can fit to the plate.
Looking for a quick solution, but i think ill drill a new holes or grind the plate.

[danilom]

Holes are drilled after bending and should be drilled at distance you need.

Weld the holes and drill new ones.

[marko cro]

Ty Danilo, i guess the guy who bended it, saw the distance 132 and decided to drill it, which I overlooked.
This actually makes my work much easier.

[Zouave]

It looks like you may also need to countersink the holes a little more on the Z-slide. The heads standing proud of the steel plate may be an issue, depending on your attachment to the router...

[KenC]

That isn't a big issue, but sure look ugly.

[Gerald D]

A drill bit does not have a 90 degree angle on the nose (most are 118 degrees), and that is why it doesn't work as a countersink bit. I can see you tried to drill the "countersinks" a bit below the surface to get the screw head level, but the angles are not matching up.

[marko cro]

Thanks everybody

What happened is that I did the countersink the holes, and then went drilling the 50x30 squared pipe, but I reversed the sliding plate and when i finished drilling, I thought that holes could not match, and they didnt. Thats why the heads are not flat.
I grined the drill bit to be very close to 90 deg, but the alignment of the holes is the issue.
Checked if the sliding plate has any distortion but there are none. I am considering making the holes of 8 diameter and get new countersunk screws.
The only need for the 50x30 pipe is to flatten the sliding plate, and to get support for air shock, so I think there shouldnt be any major problems to redrill it for bigger screws?

[Gerald D]

I weld the pipe to the plate (two small welds) and then drill the thread size holes right through. Then break the welds and finish the drilling/countersinking/threading on the seperate pieces.

[marko cro]

How simple thing can be effective, didnt think about it.
Thank you

[marko cro]

Also 1 question regarding eccentric bolts.
I belive I have low quality bearings coz when i tighten the bolt trough eccentric bolt, the bearing starts to put some major resistance in turrning the V wheel.
When i loosen it up, the eccentric starts to turn and there is no way i can fix(stop from turning) it then.
Was thinking to weld eccentric and trough bolt together, and not to use tap holes on spider plate. Any ideas how to overcome that?

Thanks

[smreish]

Check the bearing race and thrust washer.

If the washer is too large of diameter, it will bind on the outer bearing and prevent it from moving. Or, you need to add a bearing that matches the thrust part of the bearing for movement.

[marko cro]

I have checked it, its ok.
My only concern is how to prevent eccentric bolts to lose their position when the machine is operating, beacuse i cant tighten them properly.
If i tighten 2 hard on the bearings, there will be no rotation from them. I think I should buy new bearing and press them into my V wheels. Will post pictures today.
I think there is some space between bearings in the V wheel, and when i press it from both sides, there is some distortion inside and therefore the resistance.

[marko cro]

Problem solved, had to put drilled spacer between bearings.
Some pictures
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05199_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05200_800x600.jpg
My loyal friend lying behind me always waiting for a hug
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05202_800x600.jpg

[marko cro]

Painting done
I was amazed by this color when I saw it. MM will gain a industrial feel.
1 Week in total of painting.
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/FxCam_1352478322305_450x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/FxCam_1352662583964_450x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/FxCam_1352662274111_450x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/FxCam_1352491270245_450x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/FxCam_1352914667377_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/FxCam_1352745773611_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/FxCam_1352662245611_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/FxCam_1352554119204_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/FxCam_1352554083744_800x600.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/FxCam_1352991198099_800x600.jpg

[slobato]

Good job Marko :)

[zumergido]

i almost paint it whit this hammered metal paint effect. that i turn to blue. now iam regret. that paint is harder and look better.

[marko cro]

Thank you
The paint is pretty and very easy to paint. I have used 1.5 of 0.75 litre buckes, so its very economic, al thou I have layered in thick layer.
Only regret is that I haven't used black hammerite on black parts, because the black parts now look unequal in paint quality.
I have a question for a cable hangers or cable holders. I would like to purchase this cable holders, but ebay doesent have the right sizes.
If anybody can point me in the right link, would much be obliged.

[marko cro]

Not sure why i cant edit my post, bit nvm.
Was thinking something like this, can anyone make a ruling?
http://www.alcomachinetools.com/Nosa%C4%8Di-kablova/Nosa%C4%8D-kablova-25-X-57-R75/tpflypage.tpl.html

[danilom]

Odlican je taj nosac kablova iz Alco-a , neces pogresiti u makedoniji je na masini bez problema visi slobodno 1.5m

that one would work without problems, we mounted it on a machine in Macedonia with dual spindle and z motors, spans 1.5m without problems

[marko cro]

Thank you Danilo, was waiting for confirmation, and im ordering it right now.
Hvala brate

[marko cro]

Happy New year to all MM community (with delay)
Some work has been done, and some needs to be done.
A fun 4 days with very good help.
Some latest pics
Had to adjust desing of the cable holders support, beacuse of the I instead od C profiles. looks decent
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/FxCam_1357323265671.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/FxCam_1357409584963.jpg
Friend's Robocob moment, end of long day with satisfying results
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/FxCam_1357332485326.jpg
Precision of the table on the total lenght
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/FxCam_1357332360996.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/FxCam_1357330254900.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/FxCam_1357330221301.jpg

[slobato]

Good job Marko. I await anxious to see this masterpiece working. :D

[marko cro]

Thank you, just remembered i will send you some SW design on your mail. Anybody else needs it, just say here.
If the admins aprove it.

[slobato]

Thanks. I stay waiting for, Do you have my e-mail?

[pblackburn]

Like the color.

[Claudiu]

Lookin' good!

[marko cro]

Thank you guyz for your kind words :)
As still in assembly phase, I was wondering do I really need proximity sensors.
Was having in mind this low price on ebay, but I cant be sure. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Inductive-Proximity-Sensor-Detection-Switch-3Wire-4mm-NPN-DC-6-36V-LJ12A3-4-Z-BX-/150927575520?pt=Home_Automation_Modules&hash=item2323fc09e0
How do they react, on proximity from metal of there has to be positive-negative sensor?

[slobato]

Thank you guyz for your kind words :)
As still in assembly phase, I was wondering do I really need proximity sensors.
Was having in mind this low price on ebay, but I cant be sure. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Inductive-Proximity-Sensor-Detection-Switch-3Wire-4mm-NPN-DC-6-36V-LJ12A3-4-Z-BX-/150927575520?pt=Home_Automation_Modules&hash=item2323fc09e0
How do they react, on proximity from metal of there has to be positive-negative sensor?

Marko, This sensor it´s composed by original MM project? What´s the function it?:confused: Thanks.

[xraydude]

Marko, those sensors are NPN, 4mm sensing range, 12mm size, normally open sensors. When used per the plans, these sensors will be in a 'closed' state normally as they are detecting the rails, and only open at the stops (when the sensor detects the opening shown on 10 10 246 for the X rail, similar for the Y) or if the gantry lifts off of the rails. If multiple sensors are placed in series, an open condition on any one of them will trigger the circuit. There are considerations, though, such as voltage drop / max current, etc. to think about as well as the particular BOB you are using and I have seen many discussions of this here. I was actually looking at those same sensors myself for my build. I have seen many builds here with no proximity sensors used, so I would not consider them essential. For me, it is more of a safety issue.

I am sure that one of the guys with more experience will chime in.

Ted

[smreish]

Chiming in....

Ted, you explanation was succinct and correct.
Nice feature, not required, but great when you have it for daily setup of machine.
One of the benefits of Mach 3 is it has a homing routine that allows all of the sensors to be wired in parallel and properly detect "home" for each axis while only using one input on the BOB. (I isolated each sensor via a relay for EMF isolation).

Again, great feature - but NOT necessary at all for the operation of the MM.

Note on operation without the homing sensors: The turn off....hold gantry against the adjusted hard stops...energize WORKS just fine and part of the MM design.

Sean

[marko cro]

Thank you Ted and Sean,

You have been very helpful, I understand how to apply it to the machine. As I am planning to prepositioned moulds which will be positioned around the table, I will use these proximity switches.
Now I remembered that I forgot cable end connectors, insulated or not? So can anybody help out with this one. End cables to connect the control box with MM without cable interference.

[smreish]

My cable was M12 termination, 4 core, no shield.

[marko cro]

Some movement, finally.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mFE9mMBHsQ&feature=youtu.be

[pblackburn]

It is alive. That's a great feeling is it not. Nice paint color. I would have liked to use something else but I had blue on hand.

[marko cro]

Man, im loving the way it moves.
its 666.66 mm per sec, with microsteping 1600. I am amazed with the power it has.
Still some fixes needs to be fixed, but that will come in a couple of days.
Maybe this week I can get serial number :D

[parrulho]

Easy move, very fast! Nice machine.
I like the way you put e-chain on Z.

[marko cro]

Thanks Paulo,

It looks very nice, but there are some problems. Making it square X to Y and when motor overdrives,it skips some teeth, and it needs to be pun in 90 deg again.
If not in 90 °, then the pinion is causing problems. Still looking to solve that problem.

[marko cro]

Some problems encountered today. As i have forgot to put screws to fix the motors as in picture:
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/slika_zps6414e4bc.png
I had some speed reduction, and a lots of vibrations. Made the some blank cutting and vibrations were major. Can this be the only reason for vibrations, or it can be the less strong tension springs?
Help needed.

[pblackburn]

You will need enough lbs of force to keep the pinion riding in the track and not wanting to ride out when resistance is met with your router/spindle. If the rails are smooth and the spacing is correct between the V rails your vibration will be minimal if not nonexistent. If you are seeing vibration then I would suspect something is binding and the vibration you are seeing is the breaking free moment. Make sure you are not clamping the shield or seal of your bearing with the spacer or nut you are using. Easy way to check this is to remove the springs and let the steppers hang. Then press with you hand on the gantry and Y car. It should not take much effort for it to free wheel to the end stops after you give it a light push. If the gantry of the Y car is riding up on the rails it will cause weird things also so check that. Make sure your pinion is tight and not loose or rubbing the side of the c channel or tubing. These are only some things to look at.

[marko cro]

Hi Pete, thanks for helping out.

When i remove the steppers from pinion, movement is very light and it slides with very little force. Nothing is rubbing on anything and the bearings in V wheels are ok.
I belive the force in the steppers moves slightly steppers itself as they are fixed on only 1 screw, and not on 2 like in the blueprints (the one circled red in the picture above is missing and I think there is the problem.
Also to point out, the V rails are the weakes links of the whole machine, and will look to repalce them as soon as possible.

[pblackburn]

You are using a plastic (delrin, teflon, nylon,etc) washers with the pivot bolt and slot bolt. The bolts in both places should be used for stability.

[Surfcnc]

Marko

1. two bolts are needed
2. a PTFE or other washer is required on both bolts (as per the plans)
3. lubrication and adjustment of both joints is also advisable
4. check the pinion is both square and fully engaged into the rack
5. check that the the opposite sides of the X axis and Y axis is also secured with a spring, bolts etc
6. check that the V rollers are free to turn and not binding on the central hub of the rollers.
7 check your motors are tuned correctly by disengaging the pinions from the racks and run them without moving the machine.
8. it is unlikely the pinions moving on the stepper shaft would cause the "vibrations" you are explaining.
If the pinions are moving, they could however cause problems with the cut quality later down the track.

You should not need to replace the rails unless they were made badly in the first place.

Regards
Ross

[smreish]

The vibrations you speak of I found were all rack/motor relationship on my machine.
- square to rack seated pinions
- lube the rack!
- tension on the springs NOT to tight, but not to loose - to tight caused my machine to shudder (like a really low rumble and vibration)

[marko cro]

Thanks Ross and Sean,

I have lots of nerves wasted on the tuning the rails tightening the screws, but now it seems stupid of me and lesson learned.
However, I want to put permanent solution into machine, and I was thinking something like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Set-SBR20-3000mm-20-MM-FULLY-SUPPORTED-LINEAR-RAIL-SHAFT-ROD-with-4-SBR20UU-/261058368617?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cc84a9469 on all 3 axis.
What would i get in precision and in the quality of the machine as whole.

I am very close to buy the whole package, but want your opinion before any final purchases.

Thanks,

Marko

[pblackburn]

All I can say is dust is the enemy of caterpillar type bearings.

[pblackburn]

This is another option (http://www.pbclinear.com/V-Guide-Rail-for-Linear-Roller-Bearings)

Many people have using the type you have shown. It can be done but mind the dust. It plays havoc on the bearings. Wood is a very destructive byproduct. Bellows are always an option for those systems. Also the wiper on the bearing will be a deciding factor. Not all manufacturers are equal in this. These will require some recalculation on the mounting plates if they lift the mating parts to high.

I am just saying....Do your homework and it will play off but don't rush to a hasty decision when yours may still be salvageable.

[marko cro]

Thanks a lot Pete,

Wasn't thinking about the dust much.

I believe that those linear bearing do have dust wipers installed on them. As i don't know those kind of bearings, I believe they could last for a year at least in conditions with dust collector and cleaning. I am just assuming out loud, with no valid ground.
I will work on the SW design and see if it checks out without and major workaround of the motor and rack and pinion setup.
Also, was thinking about doing the X and Y 1st, and DIY the Z slide.
I think my rails are ok, but the welding the gantry welding was a bit off, and the setting up the wheels is a PAIN. Some wheels have grooves a bit deeper and it makes it a son of a ..... to setup.
Any thought about precision and some vibrations advantages with these bearings?
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/One-SBR20UU-CNC-Open-Linear-Bearing-Slide-Linear-Motion-Pillow-Block-/00/s/NjAwWDYwMA==/$(KGrHqF,!qkFDkP4oc6hBQ89FtIT0g~~60_3.JPG

[pblackburn]

As far as alignment, they will need to be true. You have to be careful bolting them down that you do not create a bow. There are different options for the bearings, oilite bearing or caterpillar ball bearings. They run extremely true if mounted properly. I have used many of them in industry.

If your gantry is twisted you can twist it back with some large C clamps. Mine twisted while welding and I followed the instructions to a T and was clamped down everywhere. That is the nature of welding. It is a science to weld and know how the steel will react, not cause to much tension to break the weld after the part cools.

I am sure you can correct the problems with the gantry. This may require you to modify and shim the Y rails if it is out to far to compensate with the adjustment built into the Y car.

I had to adjust the Y car and gantry both on my build.

[pblackburn]

I forgot, the bearing in you picture need grease, grease collects dust, dust loves grease, vicious cycle. If you have great dust collection, it will not cause much of a problem. WD40 will clean the rails but will also thin the grease in the bearing so you will have to regrease. You have to be really careful when putting these bearing on and off the rails. A custom insertion tool will add in the transfer of the bearing onto the rail else they will fly everywhere. Trust me, I have done that on more that one of our robots.

[pblackburn]

Here is one that is already cutting and is currently being upgraded (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=61048&postcount=513)

[Surfcnc]

Marko the beauty of the Mechmate is you can do what ever you like.
I have a little experience with the recirculating ball linear bearings and lubrication, constant lubrication, is the only solution to the ingress of dust into the bearing.

While it might seem strange, ensuring the dust inside the bearing is wet with lubricant is probably equally effective as trying to have the bearing always perfectly clean.
The already wet dust keeps the dry dust out and maintains some degree of lubrication.
Either way constant lubrication of this type of bearing is a necessity. Periodically use air to flush out old lubricant and dust and start the process again.

The tolerances of the bearings to the rails can be highly variable depending upon quality.
The linear bearings in the Ebay advertisement are the short type.
A long version that has is two short bearings end to end in the one unit is also available and may help to reduce some of the long term wear on the rail and to further restrict any movement.
Bread loaf style rails and their linear bearings are more expensive but usually more accurate, best to do a cost/benefit on your options before purchasing anything.

As Pete suggests the bearing rail combos have alignment tolerances, any misalignment will need to be accounted for with some vertical and horizontal adjustments in your bearing to gantry mounting solution. Simply slotting or some over sized holes might suffice but you must make allowance for it.

Good luck.

Ross

[marko cro]

Thanks guys for your help so far.

To explain, my gantry is not bent in the normal way it bends. I have 2 mm of extra distance between wheel base from one side to other.
That gave me lots of problems, but that was my mistake, and i cant unweld it and redo the cutting.
Due the uneven distance of the wheels and some imperfection in depth of the wheels (also there is the different angle problem), there is the hard path to align it all straight and without any problems.
What I had in mind is this adapters made from aluminium (if bolted to gantry), or steel or iron if welded to gantry.
Not sure about these adapters from aluminium will hold and be rigid enough if I bolt them in 4 places.
What would you suggest in this situation?
Here are some pics
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/1-1_zpsdcb1d3db.png
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/2-1_zpsa3145e14.png

[pblackburn]

When you say " I have 2 mm of extra distance between wheel base from one side to other." Do you mean the tube lengths are a different? Most cutting discs are only 0.030" thick so you could cut it apart and re-assemble.

I prefer bolt to weld when it has any piece that is a wear part. I would weld 1/4" (6mm) steel around the areas I would like to bolt my adapter plate(plate that would receive the bearing) to. This way you could flat head bolts to secure the bearing to the adapter plate and then bolt the adapter to the 6mm plate that is on the tubing. This would give a secure but removable bearing. This will require accuracy and precision. I do not know the tools you have available. This means your adapter plate would have to look different than what is in your drawing. These type of bearings require precision and accuracy for mounting. Being off a little it will still assembly but causes premature wear.

I am not trying to scare you away from it, just trying to give you the information for you to plan for.

Like Ross said, "Marko the beauty of the Mechmate is you can do what ever you like."

This is a very true statement.

[marko cro]

You are Johnny on the spot.
I have measured tubes and they were perfectly the same, and now there is 2 mm difference. But never mind for that now, as with this new bearings, I think i will be on right track.
Thank you again for great help in this matter.
I was talking to guy from ebay and he agreed to cut to certain sizes which i require.
The only thing is what i need to do is this adapters, and they need to be done with precision, but I can trust nobody in my small crappy to do it for me.
I was thinking to weld 6 mm steel plate to connect both tubes of the gantry for more rigidity, and then screw the adapters with bearing blocks to it. What do you think about it?

[pblackburn]

The main thing is to ensure perfect alignment. There are many ways to do it. This is only one way I will discuss here. Maybe someone will chime in with other examples.

If I had no one to trust and not the means to use a mill. You may be able to do your rail assembly including the bearing on the rails. Cover the rails with a weld blanket to protect them from weld spalls. Place a non-conductive shim between the adapter plate and the plate it is to be bolted to, this is to stop the flow of electricity through the bearing. Secure it with clamps and wood between the clamps to stop the flow of electricity through the clamp and and through the bearing. And begin light tack welding until you can disassemble and to do the final welding of the plates. Take extreme care to ensure you do not let the flow of electricity go through the bearing to ground. This method would make sure your alignment was correct.

But don't let any off the bearings rest on the gantry without having an isolator between them. A little weld current will make little marks on the bearing. You may not feel it at first but it is the beginning of destruction.

I have welded many rails up this way, but check, check and triple check before striking the first arc. You can not take it back. Trust me, I have made that mistake.

Another option is a slot in the mounting plate welded to the gantry to give you some adjustment side to side. But you want to try to mount the plate so the bearing will run as true as possible on the rail. You do not want it 15° off to the side.

[marko cro]

Thanks Pete,

I will try to aling it best as I could. Was thinking to to adapter from aluminium, but maybe it will be easier to do it when I have some movement in the machine.
I have removed most of the vibrations from the machine and it was the rack and pinion not beeing squared made the vibrations.
This is my 1st drawing , just done.
What the community thinks about it.
Disregard the letter above, not sure what is wrong with my drawing there, but will resolve it right away.
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/prva_zps8012f092.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/druga_zps4920035f.jpg

[marko cro]

Happy Easter guyz,

Not an Pen plotter anymore :D

Some pictures.
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/FxCam_1364823082740_zpsf033731b.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/FxCam_1364824815100_zps16c1e560.jpg
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/FxCam_1364834725843_zps3b9447c6.jpg

Shorten video cutting
Feedrate is put to 76 mm per sec, but i reducet it at 50 %, due the DIY drill bit.
The wood is oak, and some radius were off by a 0.1 of mm
Comments welcome
http://youtu.be/-aHpcM6UJbQ

[pblackburn]

Makes dust, that is success.

Just a suggestion. Mount your spoilboard. You would be amazed how much it stiffens the machine

[marko cro]

Hi Pete,

It was Easter time and I didnt even planned to work on MM.
I would bought it already :)

[pblackburn]

Looks good though. The real question is for you, are you satisfied? Thanks for the video and pictures. It helps everyone.

[marko cro]

Thanks :)
I will have to check what are the diagonals after spoil board and another one on top of the base spoil board.
The Z level roughing is a good way to do after profiling some parts, removes the imperfections when drill bit enters material.
Still lots of learning to do, and lots of drill bits to acquire, and LOTS of fun!!!
Any suggestion about drill bits, what should i go for if I want to do aluminium profiles reliefs.

[Andrew_standen]

Congratulations, cutting wood !:D
Good luck
Andrew

[danilom]

Marko ....

drill = burgija

router bit = glodalo

[marko cro]

JUST MAKES NO SENSE !!!
To explain my statement.
My rack and pinion problems has reached its peak. After 1 week of setting it up to square, I found out, that only it has NO vibrations when pinion is fully engaged on rack, but with an angle.
When its perfectly squared, i have vibrations, but aligned on one side or the other, with teflon angled spacers, works perfectly.
My only reasonable idea is that rack and pinion are not match, but they are and I am stupid as a wheel.
Pictures will come shorty, along with video of machine working.
The more I know, i know how less I know, but now its as less I know, im happier.
Another thing in this setup will be wear or the rack and pinion, but without vibration it doesn't have to wear fast.
Like I said, I am DUMB! Its miracle that I can use toilet by myself.

[bradm]

A stab in the dark: Is it possible that the pinions are not round, or are not centered on the motor shafts, and thus are acting in a cam like fashion?

[danilom]

I have the same problem with one 2m piece of rack, when its a full mesh it makes terrible noise, but its precise as any other, so I am waiting for it to wear and replace it in a year or two.

[Gerald D]

Can the motor spring pull the teeth tight against each other? Two possible reasons why they do not go tight:
- there is a mechanical block at the slot for the stabilising screw (maybe the edge of the teflon washer has fallen into the slot)
- the gear teeth shapes are incorrect and the tip of a tooth touches the valley on the other side (only the sides of the teeth must make contact)

[marko cro]

Thank you all for chipping in.
@Brad: Pinions are round, and centered to motor shaft. I had to re drill the holes to fit the shaft.
@Gerald: I had that problem and there was some space from pinions to rack, but greasing the washers sorter that problem.
Also had the edge of the Teflon was not moving properly but that also is sorted.
Will post pictures today, just to see how wierd looks and how good it sounds now.
Have to test the precision, and will check the pinion and rack from suppliers.

[marko cro]

While waiting to camera to recharge, here is a low quality pic from mobile.
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/IMG_20130423_140150_zpsa87d16dd.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/IMG_20130423_140150_zpsa87d16dd.jpg.html)

[marko cro]

On 1st M, I broke a bit, thats why its not good as the others.
Also alignment is not perfect, but im very satisfied.

http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05677_450x600_zpsa1d06353.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC05677_450x600_zpsa1d06353.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05682_450x600_zps765bae58.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC05682_450x600_zps765bae58.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05680_800x600_zps888691db.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC05680_800x600_zps888691db.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05679_800x600_zpsd707438b.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC05679_800x600_zpsd707438b.jpg.html)

[swatkins]

I think it looks just fine :)

[marko cro]

Tanks Steve.
Now I am trying to figure out the breaout board to connect E stops and limit switches.
My questions is can i put them both on pin 10, or they have to be configured on different ports. I know limit switches will be connected in series, like E stops, so it looks like the could be connected on same pin.
Another thing, im looking to configure the E stops in Mach, and not sure how to connect E switches.
One side should go to pin 10, but other should go to 5V power pin?

[MetalHead]

Hey this looks like it needs a number too !! That looks like a logo to me :D !!!

Cool cover.

You get #107

[marko cro]

Thanks Mike. :)
Will do decals in a couple of days, to get proper look of MechMate.
This deserves manufacturing plate.
This is how it looks on machine.
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC05684_450x600_zps82336e4d.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC05684_450x600_zps82336e4d.jpg.html)

[jhiggins7]

Marko,

Here's the Updated Builder's Log (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AttqjIPMBEXKcExveGc4d3U0V25zQmMyX1U1eUVhU Xc&usp=sharing)with your log entry. Please provide the dimensions of your MechMate for the record.

[Andrew_standen]

Congratulations Marko on getting number 107 ! Great build

[marko cro]

Thank you John
Outer dimension are 2800x2100 mm. will measure dutting are today, coz i had some modifications.
Thank you Andrew, playing with it like a little boy finding his 1st bike.

[pblackburn]

Congrats

[parrulho]

Congratulations on #107, wishing good luck for you and machine.

[marko cro]

Thank you Pete and Paulo.
The process of getting to know each other is best described like starting a relationship with a girl you liked for a long time.
Cant get enough, and day is too short.

[marko cro]

Been working some toys for kids.
Vacuum table would be a major improvement. I had some close encounters with machine stumping to a piece of chips and all shit brakes loose. End bits are stronger than I imagined. Live and learn :o

http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06068_800x600_zps7f58dfee.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06068_800x600_zps7f58dfee.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06065_800x600_zps7eb6f9e1.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06065_800x600_zps7eb6f9e1.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06064_800x600_zps1a841ca6.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06064_800x600_zps1a841ca6.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06063_800x600_zpsb0a0cde1.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06063_800x600_zpsb0a0cde1.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06061_800x600_zps934ba904.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06061_800x600_zps934ba904.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06060_800x600_zps24a9e4de.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06060_800x600_zps24a9e4de.jpg.html)

[pblackburn]

Looks like fun.

How are you clamping down the work? Everyone clamps differently and planning out the release of corners, angles and scrap can be a pain but worth learning. You can leave a skim level of material between the stock and part and remove it later with a hand tool of your choice. Vacuum is great for some parts but few can design a vacuum layout that is assignable to accommodate every combination of parts you want to cut at an affordable level. A vacuum box is one solution if the parts are small. I have thought about those but I opted to layout a clamp down layout using the spoilboard with T nuts install in it.

You probably know most of this but here is some useful information.

Here is some useful information
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCCNCMillFeedsSpeeds.htm

Another
http://cucfablab.org/sites/cucfablab.org/files/onsrud_routing_guide.pdf

[Gerald D]

Marko, I like those games! The first game should be good for adults too, if the magnet sticks are a bit weak and it is played at an angle :D

[pblackburn]

Gerald, I am sure you remember the two sided ones that had multiple holes to switch sides to get to the end of the game. You don't see them much anymore here the US. It is nice to see someone making them still.

[Gerald D]

Pete, I had never seen something similar before!

[marko cro]

Hi Gerald and Pete,

These toys are for kids to help them learn writing moves, and coordination eye and hand.
It has been designed to help kids with disabilities in development, and general for development of the young ones.
Still looking to paint them properly, thinking of airbrush.
About vacuum table, not sure how will I do it, but will have to do something about it.
New end bits and some better planning, but now im thinking about cyclone and will that help out.
Thanks for link, very helpfull :)

[silverdog]

Hi Gerald and Pete,
Still looking to paint them properly, thinking of airbrush.


Marko, do you know Valchromat ?
you don't need to paint :-)
http://www.valchromatsa.com/

[marko cro]

Thanks Sergio,

I had no idea that this type of wood exist. Al thou I dont belive I can find it in Croatia, because here I cant find even springs for my MM.
Not sure if that wood is painted inside? When cut . That would be a blast.
I have been doing some carbon fiber cutting, and here are the results.
Diamond end bit way lowest quality ever, but with additional sanding I got decent results.
Some pictures:
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06088_800x600_zps601b3741.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06088_800x600_zps601b3741.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06087_800x600_zps68cbedaa.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06087_800x600_zps68cbedaa.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06111_800x600_zps050d6496.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06111_800x600_zps050d6496.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06110_450x600_zps587466d0.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06110_450x600_zps587466d0.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06106_800x600_zps7cc92482.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06106_800x600_zps7cc92482.jpg.html)

[silverdog]

http://www.valchromat.pt/distribuidores.aspx?menuid=88
:-)
and yes, it's "paitend inside" that's the good thing, no need to paint.

[marko cro]

Long time no see.
MM is not being in use lately, but in a week or two will go full throttle.
Here some pics of working aluminium. 4 flute 2.5 mm end bit.
I think I need a better chip rate. Will have to work out the spindle rpm's to the feed rate.
Next one will be 1 flute aluminium, maybe it will help out.
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06286_800x600_zpsfd442b82.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06286_800x600_zpsfd442b82.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06287_800x600_zpsf5f9dc7c.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06287_800x600_zpsf5f9dc7c.jpg.html)

[zumergido]

yes look like you are using a steel bit and your rpm and speed are to fast .. so the aliminum is like melting.
plus is allways a good idea to use some lubrication not because the heat just to avoid aluminum sticks to the bit.
is just my small experience.. there are many users that use succefully the machine on aluminum

[pblackburn]

Aluminum will gum if it does not have a lubricant. On a mill WD-40 does wonders for producing a clean shiny surface after a pass and keeps the chips from sticking to the end mill. But we are only spinning at 800 to 1000 rpm.

[marko cro]

Thank you guyz,

I was spinning around 12000 rpm's , and 4 flute is 2 much and 2 shallow.
Will try with one flute.
Not sure about my spindle, will it not hurt him for using it on 6000 rpm?
Max power is 1.5 Kwh, but the china guy told me not to run it at low RPMs. Not sure what is the load on the spindle while cutting aluminium at 3 mm sec.
Will try to use WD40 next time.
My concern while cutting this part, was the strip marks on the bends strip. Was that decent or it could go way better?

[Surfcnc]

The bottom of pockets will always have that mown grass look.
It is an artifact of the direction of the rotation of the square cutter tips being in opposite directions along its centerline for each single pass.
Expensive mills produce exactly the same markings.
It is possible to further polish out imperfections with a felt bob and cutting paste, to flap disk sand etc for a different finished look.
You should see the pattern but not feel the pattern.

Ross

[Fox]

The edges indicate that feed and speed is indeed not right, swarf sticking to work and tool (probably). You should be able to get a 'clean' edge finish off the table with a good chip load. For sure use some sort of readily available lubrication, wd40, lamp-oil (paraffin) works, etc etc. Watch some videos on youtube to get an idea....For try outs just brush the lubricant on, later maybe build a nice mister like Ross did. Use 2 flute or single flute.

Ps. i don't know your background; What a lot of 'newcomers' don't know is that you have different qualities/alloys of aluminum, and they are all called aluminum with different strengths, but more importantly.... that also cut very different, some are stronger and very difficult to cut on a router table with high RPM spindles.

[marcobc]

Almost every day I am cutting aluminium 2mm thickness. In first I experimented with a lot of kind of bits, and the best is one flute, shown on picture below
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h304/marcobc/dryaci/15007_2.jpg (http://s67.photobucket.com/user/marcobc/media/dryaci/15007_2.jpg.html)

This bit provides best chip, and good cutting edge, without cooling.
It is hard to find bit with this shape. I bought it from local dealer, ant bought all he had.
Recently I found site of German manufacturer, that have this type of bits. Try to find if they are available in your country.

I forget, rpm 9000, feed rate 1.2 m/min, plunge rate 1.2 m/min spiral
I'll record when i cut alu next time.

[marcobc]

site of German manufacturer
http://www.werkzeug-navigator.com/DE/HKnavigator.aspx
Item no. 15007060

[smreish]

If in USA - this is where I purchase my bits for everything. They have the single flute too.

http://www.hartlauer-bits.com/HartlauerBitsList.pdf

[Gerald D]

. . . . . you have different qualities/alloys of aluminum, and they are all called aluminum with different strengths, but more importantly.... that also cut very different . . . . . . .

Agree 100%

Most people think that all aluminums are similar. They are not. There are huge differences.

[marcobc]

I tried 2 kinds of aluminium. first Al99.5, which is softer, and it is harder to cut him (must be lower rpm and feed rate). Second one is better ALMg3 (approximately rpm 9000, feed rate 1.2 m/min, plunge rate 1.2 m/min spiral)

[marko cro]

Well, to say I am amazed for this kind of help, would be an understatement.
Thanks a lot for this.
The alulminium I was cutting was lying around the workshop before the MM came alive, so there is no way for me to figure out what type of aluminium type is it.
If you can record that video of cutting aluminium, that would be a blast.
I have some different types of aluminium, and will test it tommorow.
20 mm per sec is great speed for aluminium. Hope I can come near that soon.

[marcobc]

I forgot, pass depth 0,5 mm.

[Gerald D]

Aluminium is not only available in different grades, but each grade is available in different "tempers", due to heat treatment or "work-hardening". The tempers also have an influence on machining.

[Gerald D]

Any volunteers to summarise this article (http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs/13408/InTech-Machining_and_machinability_of_aluminum_alloys.pdf ) for us? :)

[pblackburn]

McMaster has a quick reference here.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/119/3626/

Where I work we primarily use only 6061

[marko cro]

After some reading and some trial and error i got this
12000 RPMs, feed rate 10 sec/s stepdown 1 mm. Little or no lubricant.
Trying to get some tutorials on high speed maching in mastercam.
Better?
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/IMG_1351_zps6ec29c33.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/IMG_1351_zps6ec29c33.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/IMG_1352_zps3a7a2726.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/IMG_1352_zps3a7a2726.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/IMG_1353_zps75d542ab.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/IMG_1353_zps75d542ab.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/IMG_1354_zps27075304.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/IMG_1354_zps27075304.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/IMG_1355_zps32ae82b4.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/IMG_1355_zps32ae82b4.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/IMG_1356_zps30373bca.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/IMG_1356_zps30373bca.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/IMG_1357_zpscbbff856.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/IMG_1357_zpscbbff856.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/IMG_1358_zps7f73ed61.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/IMG_1358_zps7f73ed61.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/IMG_1359_zpsab306f0f.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/IMG_1359_zpsab306f0f.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/IMG_1360_zpscbc695f6.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/IMG_1360_zpscbc695f6.jpg.html)

[danilom]

I think High Speed Machining is tough even on some VMC's or machining centers and would be too much stress and tool breakage on a Mechmate.
For that kind of machining you need lots of rigidity and power.

[marcobc]

I have uploaded video.
http://youtu.be/nbytoYSw76k
http://youtu.be/T8cZtZ20X-Q

Here are some pic of work:

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h304/marcobc/radovicnc/IMG_20130706_165845_resize.jpg (http://s67.photobucket.com/user/marcobc/media/radovicnc/IMG_20130706_165845_resize.jpg.html)
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h304/marcobc/radovicnc/IMG_20130706_165856_resize.jpg (http://s67.photobucket.com/user/marcobc/media/radovicnc/IMG_20130706_165856_resize.jpg.html)
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h304/marcobc/radovicnc/IMG_20130706_170547_resize.jpg (http://s67.photobucket.com/user/marcobc/media/radovicnc/IMG_20130706_170547_resize.jpg.html)
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h304/marcobc/radovicnc/IMG_20130706_171243_resize.jpg (http://s67.photobucket.com/user/marcobc/media/radovicnc/IMG_20130706_171243_resize.jpg.html)

When the bit is not sharp, cutting edge looks like this:
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h304/marcobc/radovicnc/IMG_20130706_165954_resize.jpg[/URL]

[marko cro]

Thanks Marco for very cool videos.
I wonder if anybody has a dfx of spindle mount to share.
I cant connect to my computer where I have it, and could use spare time to cut it.
I couldnt find any plans on the forum.
Here is what I have been doing for these last few weeks.
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/sova3_zps895735d4.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/sova3_zps895735d4.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/sova2_zpsfdad4442.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/sova2_zpsfdad4442.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/sova1_zpsca3b2441.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/sova1_zpsca3b2441.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06704_zps766594c8.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06704_zps766594c8.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06692_zps5df89f93.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06692_zps5df89f93.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06691_zps19f196d5.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06691_zps19f196d5.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06690_zps5f15bfc0.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06690_zps5f15bfc0.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/IMG_20131021_172926_zps47e630b2.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/IMG_20131021_172926_zps47e630b2.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/IMG_20131021_172736_zps504c1ba8.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/IMG_20131021_172736_zps504c1ba8.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/IMG_20131003_170721_zps43d00c54.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/IMG_20131003_170721_zps43d00c54.jpg.html)

[darren salyer]

Nice Work....

[pblackburn]

Everyone mounts their spindle a little differently. Thin back plate, thick back plate, steel design, aluminum, etc... If it is a 2.2kW then it is I believe an 80mm. Most use a clamp mount. Mine used the standard 2 dowel pins but 2 holding bolts and is all 25.4mm Aluminum. Five piece, all bolt together.

You have been busy I see. Good Work!

[marko cro]

Thanks guys.

I have been working, and soon I hope to get more and more work, but..
I have a problem.
2 times I have been cutting aluminium, and machine went full stop.
The problem is like this.
In the middle of cutting aluminium, machine suddenly stops at place, and wont move.
I am looking at mach 3 and I can see that coordinates are moving.
When I press escape, Mach stops, but i need to press 2 times reset button to gain control over machine.
It happened 2 times, and both times on aluminium. Not sure what is happening, suspecting for the computer to be faulty. Or the parallel cable is faulty.
I have been cutting longer times and had no problems like that, some other yes, but not like that.
Anybody had similar problems?
Can it be something with current in the machine?

Marko

[smreish]

Does the same exact cut file stop when your cutting a non-conductive material? Like wood or MDF?

[marko cro]

Nope,

Only on aluminium.
I tried wood and all other stuff, and only stopped on aluminium.
But it does not stop every time.

[smreish]

To be honest, I have had something similar happen - but I don't know what it really the answer.

1st question - does mach show any indication that it has stopped? Or is constantly running the code queue?
2nd question - does the drive or drives disable? Or go into thermal protect?
3rd question - do you have proximity limits on your z axis? ( I have had to isolate the 12mm body from the machine metal mounting because the ground issue has caused my machine to either stop, or caused the z axis to "tick up and down" without direction from Mach IF spindle was running.
4th question - does your spindle have ceramic or steel bearings? And can it ground itself thru the tool bit?

It sounds like an EMF / Grounding issue. Have you tried grounding the alum part your cutting?

[slobato]

Nice work Marko. A question, What´s tool do you use to draw these project?

[marko cro]

Thanks Sean,

1. Mach keeps on rolling with code like nothing has stopped.
2. Motors are cool and even below 37 C
3. I dont have proximity sensors yet.
4. Dont know about bearings, but i think its not ceramic.

I have felt some static charge when I was touching the control box, but I ignored that and that never happened again.
Can it be that my spindle is doing some static and stoppping the motors?
Or is it that my drivers and control board have connection with metal?

Thanks Leonardno,

I mostly use artcam, solidworks and aspire 4.

[lonestaral]

I had an intermittent fault with the machine stopping.

Check your parallel port connections.

Also take the cover off the computer and vacuum inside especially the printer output.

I also put in a new earth on the computer and machine.
It has worked very well since.

Hope it works for you.

[marko cro]

Thanks Al,

Was just doing some wood cutting, and msachine stopped again.
Well that was revealing, and also anoying, so i tried to move it, and after pressing, it came finaly back to life, withoot me touching anything else.
So I set it to move, and kick it with my leg the control box, and it stopped again.
That is good thing, coz i know now that my cable if messed up, or something in control box.
Will deal with it tommorow.
Keep you posted.
Some aluminium cuts pics:
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/IMG_20131121_200837_zps1845c9f8.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/IMG_20131121_200837_zps1845c9f8.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/IMG_20131121_202544_zps3c8bd63b.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/IMG_20131121_202544_zps3c8bd63b.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/IMG_20131121_211059_zps5ecbd90d.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/IMG_20131121_211059_zps5ecbd90d.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/IMG_20131121_211059_zps881448b5.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/IMG_20131121_211059_zps881448b5.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/IMG_20131121_215516_zps1bdf08cf.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/IMG_20131121_215516_zps1bdf08cf.jpg.html)

[marko cro]

Hello again. Im back with some news.
I discovered where was my problem.
I found my 5 V cable to my control board to be untrustworthy. So I tested it, and when i started to move it, the machine stopped.
Correct me if I am wrong, but if i physically stop my stepp motors, will the mach keep rolling the code? It happened 2 or 3 times when machine stuck in the melted aluminium, and lose almost no step, but was moving for few seconds.
Anyway. I redone the wiring, and machine worked in 2 times for 4 hours straight.
This where my new problem started.
I was cutting some reindeers from plywood and I set my artcam cut speed 100 mm/s.
As I loaded in mach, the machine did not go as fast as that. It moved only on straight lines with that speed. As mostly are curves, the job what was ment to do in 45 (artcam approximation) mins, stretched in 4 long hours.
Can you help me with that.
Not sure is the Mach 3 or artcam problem.
some pictures:
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06803_zps320722b0.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06803_zps320722b0.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06802_zpsb8aee42d.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06802_zpsb8aee42d.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06801_zps4f220fcd.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06801_zps4f220fcd.jpg.html)

[lonestaral]

Marko.

100mm/s is 6000mm/min F6000.

Check your nc program and see what the feed value is, it should read F6000.

When the machine is cutting look at the Mach screen feed value.
It will show the commanded feed and the actual feed.

Yes the programm will still run if the motors are jammed or removed.

Nice deer and workshop stove.

[marko cro]

HI Al,

Machine says its F6000 but it moves around 5 mm per sec at some areas, mostly around 20 mm/sec and only on straight lines it get to full speed at 100 mm per sec.
Thanks for the info about the program and parallel cable.
Was thinking is it CV problem, or the computer muscle problem, but now I cant tell.
The job should be done in 45 mins flat, and it took almost 4 hours.

Stove is a work of art, the only thing keeping it together is the sheet metal around the edges, coz the inner plating fell off.

[KenC]

Marko,
Yes, the machine will slow down when cornering or changing directions drastically.

Now its obvious that its software setting or tuning error with your units. It can be anywhere, might be u forgot to put in the drive ratio in Mach3 set up, even be in your G-code... Give it a round of check & you might just find it hidden in plain sight.

[Robert M]

Hi marco….

Sorry to read your trouble…and dble sorry, I’m not confident enough to assist you !!
BUT…may I ask where did you get this nice dear drawing ?
I’d like to produce some for this time of the yr !
Beat of luck with your….troubleshooting !
Robert ;)

[marko cro]

Hi Ken,

Not sure what you think about drive ratio? If you mean about reduction, and something mechanical, then my circles should differ from what I want.
The machine is calibrated and dimensions are in tolerances.
I have my susspison on artcam 2008, but how then the artcam itself says it takes 45 mins, 4 time shorted then then what really need.
Will test it tomorrow, i had no time to waste and the job needed to be done.
Not sure about my computer also, its a bit on slow.

@ Robert
I found it online as a free dfx.
Feel free to download it

[Robert M]

Tks for sharing ;)

[lonestaral]

If you work out the perimeter distance of the part or parts that you are cutting and divide that by feedrate, that will give you the cutting time in minutes.

For example. 5000mm distance. 2500mm/min feed, 1 pass.

5000/2500 x 1 = 2. 2 minutes.

As for what your CAM softwear says, take that with a pinch of salt.

[marko cro]

Thanks Al,

From that point on, I was comparing the CAM and real time, and its always different.
Sometimes shorter, sometimes longer.
In the meanwhile, here are some pictures.
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06813_1024x768_zps894e0880.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06813_1024x768_zps894e0880.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06812_1024x768_zps82ebd645.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06812_1024x768_zps82ebd645.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06811_1024x768_zpse406d95b.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06811_1024x768_zpse406d95b.jpg.html)
And creating a table for cnc, I call it chuck bolt table.
Got finished today with other plate. All the screw paths (or what its called) I did manually, all 96 times. Still planning to get a back plate with channels for coolant liquid.
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06840_1024x768_zpsc5e053e8.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06840_1024x768_zpsc5e053e8.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06839_1024x768_zps3f327768.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06839_1024x768_zps3f327768.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06836_1024x768_zpsc4c036c8.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06836_1024x768_zpsc4c036c8.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06835_576x768_zps8c653952.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06835_576x768_zps8c653952.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06834_1024x768_zps5fd9dafa.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06834_1024x768_zps5fd9dafa.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06832_1024x768_zps7217a176.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06832_1024x768_zps7217a176.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC06831_1024x768_zps5cdd25d3.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC06831_1024x768_zps5cdd25d3.jpg.html)

[Kornerking]

Great pics. Well at least the first 3.;)

[Tom Ayres]

Were those pics focused on the reindeer or Santa's Helpers? Ha Ha.;) I bet you hands are a bit sore from tapping.

[Tom Ayres]

Is the plate going to be use to mount materials you mill? Just curious, how is it going to be mounted itself, and onto what machine?

[marko cro]

I went there to take pictures of reindeers, but santa helpers looked much better.
Hands are killing me, and I have bladders of water all over my palms.
I have 2 plates finished, and it will be used to mount materials.
I play to put those plates on an aluminium plate, and fix it to the table of my MM.
Trying to get vibrations out, and some coolant pump and liquid into the fixture.
Also, I have to level it down.
Any sugestion about that coolant table?

[marko cro]

Long time no see.

Some recent photos.
Im switching to linear bearings coz the solution ov V groove rollers is bad.
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC07402_1024x768_zps82349ed2.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC07402_1024x768_zps82349ed2.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC07396_1024x768_zpsb27288c5.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC07396_1024x768_zpsb27288c5.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC07368_576x768_zpsfdc0b27c.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC07368_576x768_zpsfdc0b27c.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC07336_1024x768_zpscac56f13.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC07336_1024x768_zpscac56f13.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC07307_1024x768_zps5139600a.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC07307_1024x768_zps5139600a.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC07293_1024x768_zps362bde68.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC07293_1024x768_zps362bde68.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC07249_1024x768_zps8a3c7b77.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC07249_1024x768_zps8a3c7b77.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC07209_1024x768_zps0e9d6545.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC07209_1024x768_zps0e9d6545.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC07140_576x768_zpsf728309c.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC07140_576x768_zpsf728309c.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC07122_1024x768_zps6148a15d.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC07122_1024x768_zps6148a15d.jpg.html)
http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii528/lopataos/DSC07096_1024x768_zps54198c0d.jpg (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/lopataos/media/DSC07096_1024x768_zps54198c0d.jpg.html)

[Khalid]

The software time will always be different than the actual machining time. This is because your software do not incorporate acceleration/decelaration in the timing calculation. Increase the acceleration and velocity in the Mach3 for all axes and you will get improved time.

[marko cro]

Hi Khalid,

Actually I got it fixed.
The thing was that when I was creating *.TAP files, artcam has created in lines, insted in arcs.
When created in arcs TAP file, you get the speed you want, beacuse it creates circle with arcs, insted of godzillion little lines where machine cant get its speed up.
Machine was working awsome, untill the V groove wheel went berserk.
No I am putting linear bearings on all 3 axis.

[pblackburn]

Nice work

[Fox]

Switching to linear bearings on your z axis or the entire machine !? Xyz ?

[marko cro]

Switching all 3 axis on linear bearings.
I got 2 sets of this for a bargain.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Set-SBR20-2750mm-20-MM-FULLY-SUPPORTED-LINEAR-RAIL-SHAFT-ROD-with-4-SBR20UU-/251040068055?pt=BI_Heavy_Equipment_Parts&hash=item3a732771d7

[darren salyer]

great price. how do you plan to mount the gantry and y-car to them?

[Axel1966]

20mm sounds very light for the MechMate weight.

[marko cro]

It will need some modification to the Y-car, but I have started to design a modification on all axis.
@Axel:
I dont think is light, beacuse I think each linear bearing can widstand about 160 kg of force, and I plan to get 6 bearings on each axis, 3 of each side, even on the Z slide.
Majority of the weight of the MM is on the lower part of the machine, and I think its not more then 200kg of moving parts.
The biggest problem what I can think of is rack pinion and motor mounting, but this will have to be redone.

[Axel1966]

I understand. You may want to change for suported linear rails for some reasons I guess. The bearings can stand 160kgf, but what about the rails themselves ? Believe me, they can flex easily. Even in 30mm which are huge in front of the 20mm. I have both. My gantry is half the weight of the MechMate's. And I have changed my 20mm for some 30mm. The linear rail is hold every 175mm if I remember well. And with my gantry in motion, I could see the rails bend a bit between each screw. Otherhand, you need to have a dead flat surface to fix the rails, or they will bend on each irregularity of their base. Without loud pressure on one end whith the other one supported, you can bend a 3000x20mm rail of more than 50mm by hand. The 30mm is much more stiffer, and stays straight anytime. Just my experience to report if it can help. Instead of 6 by axis, you can order SBR LUU blocks, 4 will be better than 6 ;)

[marko cro]

The are actually fully supported rails.
I would not take even in consideration without support :)
I went to 20 mm coz 30 mm was way too expensive.
Package:

2 X SBR20-2750mm 20 MM FULLY SUPPORTED LINEAR RAIL

4 X SBR20UU Motion Router Solide Block

[Axel1966]

Fully supported indeed, but maintained by a screw each 175mm. No problem in vertical motion, but it bends horizontaly. Whatever, even in 20mm it will be an improvement. I hope you'll get what you needed. CYA

[marko cro]

Sorry Axel if i missunderstood.
Will investigate more of this matter.
Yes, I am thinking about the SBR20LUU, its much more stiffer.

Thanks

[Axel1966]

No problem marko. English is not my mother tongue too. The LUU are not that expensive, and they stays linear on 96mm long, it's a real improvement with this type of rails.

[marko cro]

My idea of throwing 1 SBR20UU in the middle to keep the rail linear, and whole axis stiffer.
I guess I could go with 2 SBRUU on the outside and middle one can be LUU, what do you think about that.
I want to build a rock solid machine for aluminium as my work goes mostly there.
Once it happened that my 6 mm end bit run 2 deep into wood and my Y car buckled out of the V grooved wheel.
End bit did not broke.

[Axel1966]

Hmmmm. Aluminium... The MechMate is not a metal milling machine. All the Metal CNCs have prismatic linear rails, pretty expensive. What grade of aluminum will you machine ? Some can be very hard, some can be pittyful to machine.

Most of metal spindles are running very low too. Was your feed and speed correctly adjusted ? It may be the cause of this reject from the material. Some aluminium are very sticky and fill quickly the bit's helix that cause a reject too.

Anyway don't plan on the SBR rails to maintain the caddy if aluminium is able to raise it ! They are weak on an up load. Appreciating the weight of the caddy, it gives an idea about the forces to manage. You could install the rails in oposition, fixed on the sides of the gantry, but it will be a lot of modification of the mechmate's plates.

I don't think using a complicated combination of bearing blocks can help. In mechanics : use the right part, at the right place. Through, to align correctly 2 blocs is a long and serious job, they need to be aligned at 2/100e mm, it's close to be inpossible with 3 blocs. In my opinion, 4 long blocks by axis will be the best.

I dunno if a SBR system will be ok for aluminium. I guess not, they will be able to stand the forces during a short period, then they will deteriorate quickly. Otherhand with verry small passes it can be possible, but it's unsuitable if you want a production machine : too slow. The right part to stand metal milling, is 25 or 30mm linear rails type Hiwin or kind of. But it's 4 times the cost of SBR30 rails.

If you want to stay with SBR20 rails, which in my opinion is not suitable, the best you can do is to install your rails in oposition, and using 4xSBR20LUU for the gantry, and 4 TBR20UU for the caddie.

Anyway, keep in mind that linear rails are not as permissive as the Vgroove system to install. If the geometry is not finely adjusted, the motion may stick, and the bearings will deteriorate quickly : the ball circulation's groove is plastic remember. Plan on an align system with screws to fine adjust the rails and the blocks. You will need machinist measuring tools to install them : dial gauge, 0.05mm level, etc. MechMate is easy to build and install, these are not. I spent a lot of time to get mine correcty adjusted. The first four das was wasted. Good luck M8 !

[marko cro]

Thanks for explaining this one, but I disagree about cutting aluminium.
The thing that pull up my Ycar was wood when 6mm end bit got stuck 2 deep with axle hitting the material.
To explain, I have cut small pieces more that a sq meter or aluminium 5000 series.
Strong aluminium to cut, and it was going pretty well with some lubricant.
I got my feed around 21 mm/s with stepdown 0.5mm but I belive I was shy about this one, and I did not have the proper end bit.
Lately I broke 2 bits and at the end I fugure out the that my rail and my wheel has lost its way.
I plan do modify the whole machine to cut mostly aluminium, and I will install a "screw" plate, to tighten material.
Also, I have installed bluemach probes, and with 5 min of your time, you can get Z anc hole circle probe with ease. (ping me if you need this one)
Here is a link my machine working on alu 2000 grade without lubricant.
http://vimeo.com/88204069
I am sure that alignment of the rail will be a pain, but not as much as my V groove wheels, because they were low quality, and they were not the same from each side, and were different each by each. So to align a machine with these kind of wheels was a pain.
This will be done with some carefull planning, but the stiffness of the machine will improve greatly.
I have also planned liquid nozzle and whole bunch stuff for the aluminium.
I will have some questions about this rail when they arrive, and hope it will be soon.
Here is the link of all of my aluminium work so far.
https://www.facebook.com/maister.cnc

Thanks again Axel,

Marko

[darren salyer]

Sounds like the quality of your wheels was more at fault than the design, but heck, half the fun is designing and building new stuff.
I applaud you for that, and will follow with interest.

[pblackburn]

I agree with Axel. The forces created with machining any metal are terrible on an unsuppported system let alone one that is designed for it. The profile rails offer better support for shock and load than the rails you are looking at. The option of preloaded guides ups the dynamic load rating as well. However there is a reason why a set of 1200mm rails and 4 guides cost $1700 USD for 30mm stock profile. But even with this, without a wear portion such as a brass gib to take the abuse they will deteriorate over time. I am only trying help you see that without a way to neutralize the uplift and harmonic shock on the gantry and y-car, you will still see premature failure. I wish you all the luck in your designing and endeavors but always look, listen to all people even those you don't agree with for knowledge can come from the least expected source and duly test and experiment for you will find a way if you truly desire it. Just don't break yourself or the bank in the process.

[dbinokc]

Another option, I am sure you have considered, would be to get a used bridgeport type mill and convert it to CNC. You could even reuse the control panel and switch it between the router and the mill.
Still it will be interesting to see how the modifications progress. Do post updates.

[marko cro]

Thank you all, and I think this has gone in different direction then I intended.
Let me just say that I am very thankfull of this comments, beacuse I can only learn on them, and I am not trying to be hardheaded about this.
Basically I think there is a misunderstood the alignment of the rails.
What I think Axel is saying that it will positioned like on this picture:
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachments/f48/224042d1392562056-verification-cnc-router-design-right-side-jpg

But I intend to align them on my I beam profiles to be something like this:
http://idea2reallife.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/id2cnc-xpf30w700-ypf40w520-zpf30w150_dualaxis-sbr16.jpg

With that said, could there more pressure on the rails which are fully supported then on my V rails?
Also wanted to ask Axel why did you recommend the TBR instead of SBR bearings? Must be the quality, but cant find any good review and comparison.

Another thing to mention is that my I beam are pretty flat, and bolting down the SBR rails onto I beams would not be as much trouble, and there shouldn't be much vertical and horizontal bending.
Please, correct me if I'm wrong.

@Darren: Quality of the wheels is very low. There are not 2 of the same wheels and there is million modifications I had to do to make them work.

@DB: I did not think about this conversion, due the large surface what I really need. MM is a pretty good base for upgrading, and getting a large quantities machining area.
I will have a design ready in a couple of days and will post some picture for your review.

Together we can review the design and do the best possible machine. Actually, I am very excited about this idea :)

Marko

[Fox]

If going to linear guide rails for better performance I would suggest go hunting for 'real' linear guides.
http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1148&highlight=linear+bearings

yes, they are more expensive, but can be had cheaper on Ebay as well.Yes, mounting will need to be more exact ( can be done with leveling resin or such see CNC zone ) but that is what all professional machines use (and for a reason).

I doubt the ones your are going after right now will be worth the effort compared to the standard V-rails. They are kind of an in between solution, that is not worth it imo. I have SKF linears to upgrade mine, but decided to first use the V-rails, and my machine is not even finished yet ;-)

[KenC]

A router design is just not there to replace big iron milling machine center.
However you do it it can't be perfect.
If you must do it, at least use real rectangle rail & carriage for best rigidity.
U did mentioned poor quality wheels, did you machine them yourself?

[Axel1966]

I own the 4 systems and I can compare SBR, TBR, Linear guideways, and I use also Hepco precision forged and machined Vgroove rails and bearings, which I belive represents the next level compared to the standard Mechmate's V rails, made with the skateboard. They are more expensive than an SBR20 system, but not as good as a SBR system. The lateral load is not as good, and you need a double V-rail in opposition to realy limit a movement on an axis. I mean, like the Z plate of the mechmate, some V-bearings on each side. The MechMate principle counts on the weight to manage the rising force. The SBR stands between the V-groove and the Linear guideway system. According you compare the best quality of each system.

Marko, the best machine possible means always an expensive machine. Quality and money are always linked. From linear guideways to servo motors. I talked about TBR, because their profile is lower than SBR, and the mounting surface is larger. Two reasons to choose TBR when it's possible.

[pblackburn]

Again here is the overall problem. V-rail, shaft linear and profile linear rails are all designed for compression load. When machining wood, the uplift is minimal compared to metal so most of the load is compression. The exception would be the capture of the Z axis. It does this fairly well even with only using radial bearings.

[marko cro]

@Ken
No I did not make them myself, as if I did, they would be much better done.
And I can go to rectangular linear guides, because that cost a lot more.

I dont understand this one thing.
Everybody says go to this solution, and all are fleeing from SRB20 linear guide.
If I use 10 mm round linear guide it would still be better then these V groove rails (like Axel said)
V groove is lowest possible rails, and if I'd compare this with cars, these V grooved rails are a carriage and SRB20 are VW passat CC.
I am not trying to build a perfect machine, and with all the money in the world, there are no such thing as perfect, but this will be MAJOR improvement, in stiffnes, in precision, in quality, in reliability.

[Fox]

It is all a subjective weighing scale decision process.
You balance the subjective/objective pros and the cons, and even than, when the result says left... you can still decide to go right.

I merely mean that for me personally round linear rails require all the prep you have to do for straight linears and already a large part of the costs. If I am not happy with the V-rails (to be decided) I will go straight for the SKF rectanugar linears which I bought for the same(!) money as you bought your round ones. Yes, they can be found used ( and mine are not worn I might add) for small money as well.

I am with Ken, that the MM is good at what it does, and does not incorporate the rigidity of a metal CNC, but when you adapt speeds and feeds, and spindle, can still be used to machine metal. But.... if you mostly cut 300x300 mm size objects to high accuracy in metal, your better/quicker/more economic solution would be to adapt a rigid manual milling machine to CNC.

Having said that tinkering is good and I follow your thread with great interest.

[Axel1966]

The MechMate was engineered to beat the expensive ShopBot One, at low cost, with ordinary tools, skils and knowledge. And that was a succes. The MechMate do pretty well it's job : cutting wood and/or pannels at a good speed, and much better than some can say. It can make an reasonable plasma cutter, even if it's not necessary to build that heavy for this job. In my opinion, the MechMate is not born to be a metalworking machine. Those are pretty different in many ways, it's not just a question of rails. Anyone can modify the guides and other stuff, to cure some problems, but it can't be a good production machine to make money on machining metal parts. Eventualy for grooving aluminium sheets, but not engineered or metal parts. You will cure a problem to discover a new one. You talked about cars, so can transform a city car to transport concrete bags, but it will never do it as well as a truck, and certainly not for the same life time. I know it's not what you wanted to hear Marko.

[pblackburn]

We are not beating on you. We are trying to normalize your expectations. I work on mills, lathes, CNC mills and lathes. There has to be a consumable part to wear and the bearings are not meant to be that part. They are precision placement. You will require gibs for a long lasting machine for cutting metal. Replacing with profile linears (what you are calling rectangle) or round linears I fear will not give you what you are hoping for. Only a higher repair cost.

[akelemen]

Marko, I am planning to build a MM in Hungary. May I ask you where did you order the laser cut and bent parts?

many thanks,
Andras

[pblackburn]

Marko,
Did you make the upgrades you were planning on doing?

[servant74]

Looking at images on the first page, all I see is advertisements from image shack. ... Bummer.