Kitchen Fronts, Door Carving and Bus Parts #64 - Novi Sad, Serbia

[danilom]

My name is Danilo Macanovic from Novi Sad, Serbia.

Last year I have built a small cnc (50x70cm) with linear bearings, ballscrews and learned a lot, made my own drivers for unipolar steppers (Mardus Kreutz) and they worked flawless (it helps to have an expert Mardus in the neighborhood) .

From start I wanted a bigger more massive machine but did not have the funds for it at the time. Now with help of some friends the build may be successful. I printed the plans and read most of the forum so I did my homework.
I decided for the Geckos this time because I really want to see them in action :)

I have available rack module 1 and pinion with 20 and 30 teeth. Steel for the frame is relatively cheap here so it wont be problem. Also there is a laser cutting service near me so that too wont be a big problem...

As everything looks in a month or two there will be one mechmate more from this part of Europe :)

p.s. I plan on using mechmate for cutting mdf boards and all sorts of other wood, forex, plexiglass etc.
And not to forget, I am basically an electronics engineer but in love with cnc machines.

I have tons of questions so be prepared :)

[jehayes]

Danilo: Welcome to the project. Sounds like you are ready for a fast build. We are looking forward to the pictures. Joe

[MetalHead]

Welcome !!!

[Johannescnc]

Willkommen! :)

[domino11]

Welcome Danilo!

[digger]

Dobrodosao Danilo.

[danilom]

MM has to wait a little becouse my colegues and me are building a bot for EUROBOT 2010 named Lily2, previous model Lily won in our national competion and made it till the quarter finals in Heilderberg Germany.
We made this one out of polypropilene and cut the parts on cnc.

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/6549/lily2.jpg


Notice the beard! no time to shave when you start building a mechmate :)

[danilom]

After a very slow recovery here is the update!

I got my racks and 30 tooth pinions
http://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/rackpinion1.jpg

Here are the laser cut and bent parts from my friend Milan!
http://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/parts1.jpghttp://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/parts2.jpg

I still have not cut the steel but had to paint it becouse of constant rain last 2 weeks.
http://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/steel1.jpg

I made a BOB with all the features I need for a MM, here is the PCB being made on my smaller cnc
http://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/bob1.jpg

and some foam letters for my friend which is helping me during the build
http://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/freedom1.jpg

[Codered741]

Is it just me, or is the spider way small. Seems like a Big gap between the spider and the side plate.

Also missed the bend for the gas strut mount.

You are movin quick! Good luck!

-Cody

[Kobus_Joubert]

They are all like that I think. Some washers as spacers on both sides, then it fits perfectly.

[Gerald D]

Cody, his y-car is not welded up yet....the parts are just loosely placed.

[Codered741]

Duh... I should have caught that... Never mind!


-Cody

[smreish]

Cody,
Summer vacation already catching up with you? ! LOL

[danilom]

Yes I placed it only too have a feel how it looks.

I was missing 100x50mm tube, got it today, so now I just need to take it all to friends machine shop :)

Milan's and mine motors 86HS9802 and a spindle from Deitech arrived too, will be getting them in next couple of days.

Will post some pictures as work continues!

[Codered741]

Geez i hope not. I posted that from my phone in the airport, the dangers of surfing on a small screen. P

My bad! I'll look closer next time.

-Cody

[danilom]

Well these 3 days were busy!

Done the cutting and drilling all the rails and tubes

http://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/photo1.jpg

cutting is so easy with this :)

http://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/photo2.jpg

and this is me learning to work on this old mill, one day practice and all those levers make sense now!

http://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/photo3.jpg

Next week, rail grinding and welding!

[danilom]

Done the rails cutting today!

tommorow we'll do angles on them

http://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/railscut1.jpghttp://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/railscut2.jpg

[danilom]

And transformation of the mill :)

now its rail sharpener!
http://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/45deg1.jpghttp://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/45deg2.jpg

got my spindle (2.2kW) and motors 9802 from Deitech, great service thank you !

http://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/parts11.jpghttp://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/parts12.jpg

and bought gears and belts for reduction, really cheap from greece company Koumakis representative here in Serbia, set of 4 was 32 eur.

http://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/parts13.jpg

[MetalHead]

Man this is great!!! You have to love how the MechMate teaches us stuff as we go. Pushing us to learn the "trades". Machining,Welding,Electrical and Electronic ... CNC .... CAD ...CAM .... I can go on and on !!!!

Great to see all those old machines making a MechMate!!!!

[danilom]

Finished painting now to fit the motors and get the cable chain

http://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/black1.jpghttp://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/black2.jpg
http://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/black3.jpg

[danilom]

Wired the spindle and prepared the spider wheels, they are bit larger and I made 20 of them on cnc lathe so used 6 instead of 4.

I assembled the belt reductions that I made earlyer and they worked out pretty nice!

Pump for my 2.2kW spindle is Atman 105, its a bit larger than Milan's Atman 104 which is working fine for him but I got this one at a good price so went with larger.
http://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/black5.jpghttp://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/black6.jpg
http://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/black7.jpghttp://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/black.8jpg
http://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/black9.jpghttp://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/black10.jpg

[danilom]

Well I am near the finish line.

Mounted control buttons, and did some 3D tests. Other 2 pictures are from making of my own drivers Mardus-Kreutz unipolar. They work well but will be changed sometime in the future if i have to.

http://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/black11.jpghttp://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/black12.jpg
http://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/black13.jpghttp://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/black14.jpg

[domino11]

Nice work on the drivers! :)

[Gerald D]

Well done Danilo!

[MetalHead]

Congrats !!!

[riesvantwisk]

well done! Very fast build and good job on the electronics!

[danilom]

I posted my first job in showroom. I made the MechMate sticker but had no time to stick it to machine, first thing tommorow i will put some pictures of it completed.

here is the link to showroom:

http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3026

[sailfl]

This MM needs a Serial Number!!!!!!

[danilom]

Wait :) I need stickers first

[sailfl]

Minor problem. You have them.

[danilom]

http://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/logo1.jpghttp://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/logo2.jpg
http://www.md-tim.com/mechmate/logo3.jpg

Cutting area 2050 x 2800 mm ,
Mardus-Kreutz drives
Deitech Spindle and 86HS9802
42V PSU

Its been a long way!

[sailfl]

Congratulations! Your machine looks great.

[smreish]

Nicely done. Looks like you used every bit of space in your workshop!
Happy cutting...it's worth the time spent building your machine.

Congratulations.

[domino11]

Congrats, looks nice. :)

[fanefane]

Your MM looks very beautiful!

[MetalHead]

Cool Color Scheme !!! Congrats on your Build and #64 !!!

[jhiggins7]

Danilom,

Congratulations on a fine looking MechMate and on Serial #64.

The Updated Builder's Log is here (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AttqjIPMBEXKcExveGc4d3U0V25zQmMyX1U1eUVhU Xc&hl=en).


Thanks for providing the dimensions.

Please review your entry and let me know any changes you wish to make.

[danilom]

Everything is fine!

Will wear the #64 proudly.

Using a Mechmate is now my priority, I already routed couple of sample cabinet doors, now I need to find some woodworkers to cooperate with.

Thanks everyone for compliments, I look forward to helping the community as you all guys helped by putting so much information on the forum!

[danilom]

As the business with the mechmate expands, using some sort of pendant is a must. After using gamepad, and some joystick emulator I made with custom housing I decided to try with pokeys55. Will post some pictures and progres I have made using it.

Also besides regular daily production of plywood toys recently I had couple of interesting jobs on kitchen doors and other.

[danilom]

Here is the kitchen door set I did, it consisted of 18 different doors.

http://www.cnc.rs/mechmate/kitchen_small.jpg


Next one are pictures of my pendant in progress, the box is a temporary solution to find best fit for buttons and switches, no room for MPG. It will be in next one. MPG is made from old floppy drive stepper motor with use of some op-amp, schematic that worked best for me is here to download:

SCH : floppy encoder schematic (http://www.cnc.rs/mechmate/floppy_encodersch.sch)

BRD : floppy encoder board (http://www.cnc.rs/mechmate/floppy_encodersch.brd)

You will need Eagle 5.10 to open it

And here are the images. MPG is working perfectly on recent tests. Velocity mode is great so as the multistep.

http://www.cnc.rs/mechmate/floppy_encodersch.jpghttp://www.cnc.rs/mechmate/floppy_encodersch_bottom.jpg
http://www.cnc.rs/mechmate/pendant1.jpghttp://www.cnc.rs/mechmate/pendant2.jpg
http://www.cnc.rs/mechmate/pendant3.jpg

The knob on motor shaft will be made more massive as it helps improve "feel" of detents.

[danilom]

new pendant case

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/newpendant.jpg

still have to mount the MPG and joystick as well as 20x4 lcd

[Kobus_Joubert]

Looking great...will they be on sale soon ?;)

[danilom]

I have not thought about manufacturing them yet. But if I get to make a mold for the back case nothing is impossible. For now its 50mm foam with acrylic 3mm faceplate but very rigid and immune to falls and hits.

Anyone interested in dwg, dxf and aspire file can send me his email.

[Kobus_Joubert]

Get it working, and I might be in line to buy one.

[mikefoged]

Sweet.... Write me up for one to.:)

[isladelobos]

Hey the new pink is nicee :)

this new have screen? is wireless?

[danilom]

Its using Pokeys55 with mach plugin. Nice device but it really helps to have knowledge in mach3 brains. So its a USB device, some days ago they released Ethernet version.
It will have a 4 lines with 20 characters LCD ( 4x20 hd44780 ), basically it has all the functions as ModIO board.

this is the image of 4x20 lcd that modio and pokeys can use, you can display two informations per line so its 8 data positions as I understood.
http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=184.0;attach=86;im age

[danilom]

Some more work today, 3 guitars cut (telecaster), two of the body's are oak and one is dark walnut. guitar necks are from swamp ash. will post a video of machining later.
Oak was darn hard to cut, but the winner is china spindle and mechmate.

Also made some clamps from 19mm MDF, they are absolutely FANTASTIC and work great, I will be making some fixture to host them permanently in T-track. clamps are from here
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:776

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/walnutbody.jpg
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/walnutoakbodys.jpg
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/swampash.jpg

[domino11]

Danilo,
That looks awesome! Can you tell us what program you did the modeling in? Cant wait to see the finished product!

[tnarch]

rock'n roll man!

[danilom]

Friend of mine used Rhinoceros to model the neck and guitar body.

[Kobus_Joubert]

Nice work, we should get together...can make some music...or noise together..:D

[danilom]

Got my 4x20 LCD yesterday, some mach macropump programming and here it is :)

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/pokeys_lcd1.jpg

[HomeMadeCnc]

Nice job on the display, thats something else on my list to do yet.
Tim

[danilom]

Dog shaped piggybank :) , 50mm pine.

http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/kasica/kasica1.jpghttp://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/kasica/kasica2.jpg
http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/kasica/kasica3.jpghttp://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/kasica/kasica4.jpg

clamps are proving to be invaluable.

[Surfcnc]

Hi Danilo

A Pointer (or maybe a retriever) and a Scotty, how very creative.
I assume you are going to put an acrylic side on them to test the young savers patience. :)

Regards
Ross

[danilom]

yes sides are acrylic, its prototype for organisation which is raising funds for abandoned dogs shelter.

[danilom]

These are some items for theater decor elements. I was also asked to cut shapes out of tarp but easy way was to use mechmate as large ploter with pen and mark the shapes to cut with scalpel, it worked very well.

Here are some pictures

Tarp:

http://cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/aladin/cerada.jpg


Acrylic 3mm

http://cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/aladin/aladin_dekor1.jpghttp://cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/aladin/aladin_dekor2.jpg


12mm plywood (1220 x 2400 mm)

http://cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/zojkin_stan/zojkin_stan_dekor1.jpghttp://cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/zojkin_stan/zojkin_stan_dekor2.jpg
http://cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/zojkin_stan/zojkin_stan_dekor3.jpghttp://cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/zojkin_stan/zojkin_stan_dekor4.jpg

[isladelobos]

Hey Danilo

I not see your old images.

One question about your drivers.
I see This Image (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_w8HVzgZ5p8E/SRzb5O5P3uI/AAAAAAAAAAs/J4kgEGkEtqo/s1600-h/M-K-BLOCK-DIAGRAM-.jpg) about your drivers connections, and my question is:

where is the diference between PC Gruwnd, Logic Ground and Motor Ground.

Im thinking, the PC cable, 25 pins is shielded and connect between the pc and the Breakout board, this Ground is PC and connected to the ¿PC chasis?.

The Logic Ground is between Driver and Breakout Board or between Driver and Motor.
Im thinking the Motor Ground is between motor and General Ground.

Regards and good work.

[danilom]

old images were on my old site which is not online anymore, I can not edit older posts but will ask mike to see how can I edit links to them.

I have my BOB 12V power supply, drives logic 12V and PC's gnd together, motor power is from another source but motor gnd and drives logic gnd is connected on the drives board, so everything is tied together and share same gnd. It serves me well that way.
There are optocouplers on the drives and proper way should be to put separate power for pc & bob on one side and drives on other.

I have bought new drives guerd87 they are 2M982 7.8AMP drivers and will rewire the whole cabinet and separate everything. Problem is that mardus kreutz are unipolar and they do work perfect but give 40% less torque for same amount of current. I am sometimes pushing the machine very hard and my current is at maximum of 5 Amps for these motors, and that causes heating. As I want it to run for 8-10 hours that became problem and that is the reason for replacing the drives. They will find their place on a smaller machine which I previously built.

[danilom]

Got some free time so I added this little helper :)
Light is ok but the crosshair is essential.

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/spindle_light/Photo0443_640x480.jpg
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/spindle_light/Photo0444_640x480.jpg
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/spindle_light/Photo0445_640x480.jpg
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/spindle_light/Photo0447_640x480.jpg
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/spindle_light/Photo0448_640x480.jpg
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/spindle_light/Photo0449_640x480.jpg
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/spindle_light/Photo0450_640x480.jpg
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/spindle_light/Photo0451_640x480.jpg

[javeria]

Danilo - thats a great idea!

[Quadro]

Danilo - where did you purchase the laser cross hairs, that looks like a great time saver!

[javeria]

Anthony here (http://www.dealextreme.com/p/red-laser-module-focused-cross-3-5v-4-5v-16mm-5mw-5942)

[danilom]

yes DealExtreme is great source of that :) for 3.95 you cant beat it.

Laser is connected to the 12V with a 560 Ohm 1W resistor, it draws something about 20mA

[hennie]

Good idea!

[skillalot]

Nice,

ordered myself one aswell, with a 80mm led ring and 4 plastic 3D glasses (like the carton ones with red and blue glass, but now plastic like sunglasses).
Had to pay 11 euro for it.
I really can't figure out how they do that? If I want to send a package to somewhere in my country, i need to pay 6.75. How can they send a package by plane from China to Holland, with some goods, for 11 euro and still make profit???:eek:
But nice though :D

[danilom]

I changed my Mardus-Kreutz (unipolar) drives with Deitech 2M982, this was a solution to prevent heating the motors if they run 6+ hours as I get more and more jobs these days. They served me well for 2 years on two machines for hobby use.
2M982 with 86HS9802 motor and setting on 5.0 Amps RMS (7.0Peak) works great and no noticable heating is noticeable while running test for few days. Power supply is still 17A 43VDC.
Also motors work much much smoother and quieter now no high pitch sounds anymore.

[KenC]

Hi Danilo, I understand the M982 are equip with DSP technology, they tout it as the answer to resonance. I was torn between my current driver & these DSP drivers when I build my MM, but because it is too new at the time & hence lack of feedback from users & USD 15 difference each I went with the conventional drivers. What I really interested to know is does it also reduce chatter marks?

[danilom]

I don't know how they work but I opened them :) and there are a lot of optocoupler's and LM339 and 393 opamps, one main chip I presume the mikro-controller has its name removed by sanding :) . If you want picture from inside, it can be arranged :D

I am very happy with drives performance, and there are almost no noticeable chatter marks. Here are pictures from cutting 42mm Ash wood. These are not so good photos I only had my phone with me. You guess it right its some more guitars, this time Stratocaster custom with SSL4 magnets.

http://www.cnc.rs/mechmate/chatter1.jpg
http://www.cnc.rs/mechmate/chatter2.jpg

[domino11]

Can you post some more pics of the strats? :) :)

[lumberjack_jeff]

I'm using Deitech 2M982 as well. So far so good.

[KenC]

No that my M860 has any problem till now.. Just couldn't resist on newer tech... :o

[danilom]

Here are the strats for you Heath
There are 3 bodies but two are identical, without front mask and with a cavity for pots from behind. Last one is for use with standard magnets and front mask. Job run time for one body using 8mm long endmill is 1hr including setup and flipping over after machining one side.

http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/custom_strat/DSC00419.jpg

http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/custom_strat/DSC00424.jpg

[KenC]

WoooooW..... What a beauty...
Is the top left of pix No2 compound curve?

[danilom]

I forgot to mark the line on previous 2 but I did it on the last one its the start of a slope for armrest. if thats what you asked :). The guitar makers I did this for prefer to sand it and its faster for me and for them.

http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/custom_strat/DSC00424edit.jpg

[domino11]

Nice! :)

[PEU]

Danilo, did you saw this guy guitars? they are really nice:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/musical_instrument_design_construction/126494-cnc_guitars.html

Also is interesting the way he makes them, some are not made from a single slab of wood, they are glued together and have internal cavities.

[danilom]

They should not be ever made of single wood piece, because it warps, but I do as customer wants an he likes it single piece :)

His guitars are interesting but you really got to have a name so that musicians say: "he knows what is he doing, his guitars are first class, lets but that fabulously looking guitar from him" . They are a tough crowd, everyone with different likings and to make something that could be manufactured requires lots of them around you to support.

[KenC]

but I do as customer wants an he likes it single piece :)


I don't argue with paying customer too :D It is their money going to waste, not mine :D

[danilom]

After installing new drives, I changed my plastic belt reduction plates with mechmate made aluminium ones, the results are more than satisfying. No more vibration at all from motors, and they seem to use the aluminium plate as heatsink :)

This is where the new setup fascinated me, I cut rib pieces for a toboggan mold. Curved section was split in three pieces 2.7m long divided by 16 rib sections, and straight part is some 4.2m long divided into 21 ribs. They were cut in half for less waste. The curves are fantastic with very litter chatter here and there mainly because I did not optimize starting point to be somewhere else and not on the curve. Model was made using Rhinoceros.

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/tobogan_mdf1.jpg
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/tobogan_mdf2.jpg
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/tobogan_mdf3.jpg
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/tobogan_mdf4.jpg
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/tobogan_mdf5.jpg

After finishing this I am off to vacation, Greece is the destination.
When I come back first thing to do is to install dedicated dust management, inspired by some others I am finishing my Bill Pentz cyclone.

[Johannescnc]

will be interesting to see end result. Take care in Greece... Viel spass!:D

[danilom]

New additions, will be making some sort of vacuum hold down. Bought this pump

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/ROTACIONA-VAKUM-PUMPA_slika_O_1195238.jpg

Its 8.3 cfm 235.1 l/min and 26.0 in.Hg -881 mbar rotary vane, looks fairly in good condition, when it arrives tomorrow I will try to machine some small pods for test.

Anyone has a suggestion for pod pattern or construction? Purpose for now would be to hold 800x200mm 30mm thick beech? how about porosity of beech?

I had something like this in my mind

http://www.cncsupport.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/vac-pod-bed.jpg
http://www.cabinetmakerfdm.com/uploadedImages/CabinetmakerFDM/Products/PD8508.jpg
http://www.cabinetmakerfdm.com/uploadedImages/CabinetmakerFDM/Products/PD7723.jpg



Also I think that making a reservoir is a good idea, this one is the same pump as mine and its mounted to a reservoir
http://www.westauction.com/user_images2/7159238.jpg

[MetalHead]

I would like to get into a detailed build out of a vacuum hold down like this so we can have a good list of parts that can be used to move our MechMate folks to a standard typ hold down system like this one.

[danilom]

Will post all about it when its finished

[sailfl]

Danilo,

You might look at this site for you vacuum interests.

http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/welcome.htm

[MAC2009]

Lets see more of your pendent

Pics and functions

you are doing some fine work here



MAC

[danilom]

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/newpendant.jpg

this is the photo at assembly. It has not changed much from there,

I got , start, stop, feedhold, rewind, Z up, Z down, XY zero, Z zero,
MPG/joystick switch (MPG for Z and joystick for XY) RESET,
feedrate pot, and spindle speed pot, as well as LCD with all the info.

Its a bit large, but it was only way to make it a custom look.
Pokeys now has a new device with faster processor so it should get
bit better response from commands, this one is ok but has a bit of lag.

[garycdba]

Hi Danilom
nice work' I downloaded the MDF clamp file but is having trouble converting the DXF file to g-code. Would appreciate any advice on how to import DXF file to make g-code
Gary

[danilom]

It depends on what software are you using?
For start I could make you some gcode, if you give me the cutter diameter and feeds.

If you need some free CAM to use and generate gcode yourself, and try you can look at these
http://www.gsimple.eu/index.html
http://www.cambam.info/ (go at download you have a free version at the bottom)

[garycdba]

The software i am using is g-simple and the tool bit is a 1/4 inch straight router bit. I have just started cutting and has not paid attention to the feeds. I just received serial #87 yesterday and is a newbe. Thanks for the help i downloaded the DXF file but was unable to get g-simple to generate g-code keep getting ID connection error. Anything to help is greatly appreciated.
Gary

[Kobus_Joubert]

Hi Gary, When I got my machine up and running I also could not get going. I downloaded all the free CAM evaluation programs. Only when I tried the VECTRIC products that I really took off. It will cost you some money, but worth it in my opinion.
I got going within 5 minutes with CUT2D from Vectric.com.
Just my 2c worth.
I upgraded every now and then until I got to Aspire..The more you do the more you want out of the software...keep this in mind.
I thought Cut2D will be fine. It was for 2 months. Then I upgraded to V-Carve Pro...that was fine for a while...Now I am happy with Aspire and the Free upgrades helps...can't wait for Aspire V3.5 releasing soon.

[danilom]

CUT2D is just too basic, its like evaluation version of some bigger software.
For any serious work it won't be enough. Start with VCarve atleast

If I get time today will look at using gsimple so I can help you

[garycdba]

Hi Kobus that's exactly what i did downloaded every free cam evaluation software and settled on g-simple just because i had the best results with g-simple. thanks for the advice if it was not for this forum i would really be lost.

Today i plan on learning more about g-code and importing DXF files once i learn more about what i am doing i will settle on what software to purchase.

Thanks for the good suggestions and the help.
Gary

[danilom]

Some recent work, I'll post some pictures once the numbers are assembled and finished.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC2zUE5nXNM

[danilom]

Bits arrived, will test them soon, its heaviest bit I held and its only 1/2" or 12.7mm

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/compression.jpg

Minimum recommended feedrate 650 IPM or 16m/min at 18k RPM :) GULP!

[smreish]

yep...that looks aggressive. Show us some chips! Really, I'm interested in the chip load?

[danilom]

0.018 - 0.021 per tooth
for 1xD cutting, for 2xD 25% lower
I think that 12m/min will be possible

[KenC]

That is a mean looking bit! It will be cool to see the MM going about its business at at just "mare" 12m/min! That is like F1 racing car!

[Travish]

Danilo,

I like this style of cutters. I have gone through about 40 sheets using these cutters, and they do really well for keeping burrs to a minimum. The cutters are strong and like a healthy chip load. If the sppeds scare you at 1st try running the cutter at the 12,500-13,500 range but keep the chipload @F.036 per rev to minimize burning the tool. Get your CS Setting right and go for it. Then as you get dialed in, up the rpm to 18,000. I can cut full depth of cut right through 3/4 marine hardwood plywood like nothing with these cutters, trully amazing to watch it go. your dust collecter will fill up in a hurry. Have fun with you new cutter!

[digger]

But he doesn't have dust collector. :D

[KenC]

He can collect the dust manually :D

[danilom]

Hahaha I knew you would say that digger! :rolleyes:

[danilom]

Anyone has some idea on calculating Horsepower needed for cutting?
I seen somewhere some formulas but it requires the amount of power needed to remove cubic inch of material.
What would be that for MDF or particle board?
Last thing I want is to stall the spindle. Its 2.2kW or 3HP, if someone has some info on power req.
I have pocketed hardwood, beech with 5mm DOC and 18mm endmill, with no problem.

[ger21]

Bits arrived, will test them soon, its heaviest bit I held and its only 1/2" or 12.7mm

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/compression.jpg

Minimum recommended feedrate 650 IPM or 16m/min at 18k RPM :) GULP!

The bit in the picture is left handed. Or is the image mirrored?

On our Morbidelli router at work we cut 3/4" particle board at 950ipm at 16,000rpm with similar bits. It also has a 15HP spindle, and two 25HP vacuum pumps. :)

[Gerald D]

Ger, remember this thread?: Compression spiral LEFT hand bits (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3517&highlight=collet)

[ger21]

:o Had a feeling it was the same person.

[KenC]

Danilo,
Regarding spindle power for cutting, There are no fix rules for it, it is a compounded result of how deep, how hard you feed the bit into the work & size of the bit. Also, how sharp or how blunt your bit is.

To monitor stalling, The only reliable monitoring I found is the current the spindle draws, Power= Voltage x Current & since Voltage is sort of constant, Current will give a direct indication of the power. I don't know how accurate the Chinese VFD display is but that isn't critical, I only need an indication.
For the 2.2Kw, Working around 4A is very safe as it is about 50% capacity.
Adjust your cutting combo to suit or change a sharp bit when the current start to climb gradually over 5A. you don't want to go over 6A as there will be too little head room for to load variation due to blunt bit, uneven wood/MDF density & other unforeseeable load.
For the 2.2Kw Chinese spindle 8A is THE death zone, I know :(

Monitor by listening is one way but it won't give repeatable result & it is always too late for me to respond to stalling especially with 3D works...

[danilom]

Just finished cutting 40 boards of 18mm plywood and 6 boards 10mm. Its was for a local theater. The astonishing decor is breath taking as some pieces are 17 x 7.2m when assembled. Will post some pictures later when they finish the assembly and final setup.

Mechmate held good and I got more tired from loading boards and unloading pieces then machine from cutting. Only damage... Z axis reduction belt, it was damaged some weeks earlier when I during tramming over tightened the Z axis wheels and jammed the axis. As the motor was stronger then the belt it stretched it a little, which I did not notice until it gave up couple of days ago after the 40 boards :) .
Total bits spent.... 2 spiral upcut bits :) they hold up quite nice, for a price of 6$ , I recommend carbidechiu! The truth is the plywood was poplar and very soft, I cut it in 9mm per pass at 2.8m/min and 16k rpm.

[Gerald D]

46 boards sounded like some money coming in, but then you said it is for a theater and they don't pay much money :)

Well done!

[danilom]

I forgot to post the pics of the scenery. Here they are! Stage is 17 x 7.5m and scenographer filled it up till the last millimeter.

http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/krcko_orascic/a1scena.jpg
http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/krcko_orascic/a2scena.jpg
http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/krcko_orascic/IMG_0603%20(Medium).JPGhttp://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/krcko_orascic/Photo0518%20(Medium).jpg
http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/krcko_orascic/IMG_0687_resize.JPGhttp://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/krcko_orascic/IMG_0688_resize.JPG
http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/krcko_orascic/IMG_0699_resize.JPGhttp://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/krcko_orascic/IMG_0698_resize.JPG
http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/krcko_orascic/IMG_0700_resize.JPGhttp://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/krcko_orascic/IMG_0702_resize.JPG
http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/krcko_orascic/IMG_0709_resize.JPGhttp://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/krcko_orascic/IMG_0715_resize.JPG
http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/krcko_orascic/IMG_0712_resize.JPG

[TechGladiator]

Danilo. VERY NICE!!.. I want to be like you when I grow up :). I am impressed.!!!

[danilom]

Whole scene produced in 19 days, with help of their woodworkers and others

[TechGladiator]

Very nice. Check PM

[Gerald D]

Very impressive!

[domino11]

Wow, very nice!

[Kobus_Joubert]

That looks like a lot of dust.... Well done

[KenC]

Finger leaking good!!!

[sailfl]

Nice job.

[Johannescnc]

What do you have in the space normally give for the MechMate logo?
I recognize the 'kreutz' but the first part is covered...
http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/krcko_orascic/IMG_0603%20(Medium).JPG

[PEU]

mardus kreutz are open source stepper drives

[danilom]

On the left it says Mardus (Marić Dušan) - Kreutz
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/logo4.jpg
Looking for some drives to start off, I found those and discovered that I met Mardus some years ago. A phone call and I was at his house to discover his adventure about learning how to build a powerful stepper drive. Along with Kreutz on cnczone they planned and released schematics for these drives.
These drives were used on my first smaller machine and also on my MechMate for 6 months. when they got replaced with bipolar drives, for cool running and more torque. Recently my friend developed a bipolar MardusKreutz using L6203 chips, its still in testing but will run his mechmate when its finished.

In honor to my friend Mardus I put that on the left side of my MechMate. Of course regular Mechmate decal is on the right :)

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/logo1.jpg

[Johannescnc]

Thanks... I found the thread on cnczone. I've done some research on drives, but never heard of this.

[danilom]

I also made these huge numbers and a small house for a play "Mileva Maric Einstein"

layers were assembled with pegs and LED lights installed inside, foam/plywood so they are light and can be carried around with ease in the show.
http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/mileva_maric_3d_slova/3d_slova.jpghttp://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/mileva_maric_3d_slova/3d_slova2.jpg
http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/mileva_maric_3d_slova/3d_slova3.jpghttp://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/mileva_maric_3d_slova/3d_slova4.jpg
http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/mileva_maric_3d_slova/3d_slova51.jpg
http://www.cnc.rs/mechmate/0211111.jpg
http://www.cnc.rs/mechmate/DSC_8949.jpg

Mechmate cutting these numbers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC2zUE5nXNM&context=C30ed322ADOEgsToPDskL1FiZhZBpgEy30nFjU2IE9 )

These two years making and working with Mechmate were great, and I hope that with gaining experience I could return a favor to community!

[danilom]

Aaaand a bunch of these "I don't know what it is" parts. Cut from 30mm thick PE sheet 1x1m , around 163 parts from that sheet.

http://cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/polietilen_uvodnica/IMG_0422_resize.JPG
http://cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/polietilen_uvodnica/uvodnica_kabla_polietilen2.jpg
http://cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/polietilen_uvodnica/uvodnica_kabla_polietilen7.jpg

[jehayes]

Danilo:

Thanks for the update. You have inspired me to get cracking on a number of my own projects.

[PEU]

I would make a very nice marbles labyrinth with them :)

[danilom]

Well they were all gone the next day when I delivered them, next time I will surely make a marble game out of them :)

[danilom]

Some nice Vcarving, for me this is the easiest technique of creating artwork. For these I used parts of vector drawings and some of mine elements. As always anyone wanting the artwork, just needs to ask :)

http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/crkva_vcarve/IMG_1262%20(Small).JPG
http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/crkva_vcarve/IMG_1225%20(Small).JPG
http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/crkva_vcarve/IMG_1226%20(Small).JPG
http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/crkva_vcarve/IMG_1228%20(Small).JPG
http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/crkva_vcarve/IMG_1229%20(Small).JPG
http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/crkva_vcarve/IMG_1231%20(Small).JPG
http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/crkva_vcarve/IMG_1232%20(Small).JPG
http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/crkva_vcarve/IMG_1233%20(Small).JPG
http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/crkva_vcarve/IMG_1261%20(Small).JPG
http://www.cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/crkva_vcarve/IMG_1262%20(Small).JPG

[Alan_c]

Nice ideas and nice work Danilo, have you still got my e-mail address? :D

[Kobus_Joubert]

Very nice and I think you should have my e-mail handy...thank's

[hennie]

I will get it from you oak`s:D

[Gerald D]

Hennie, you mean okes, not oaks. It is a shortened version of blokes. :)

[jehayes]

Danilo:

Thanks for the photos. Great work. Inspiring.

Joe

[danilom]

For all of you interested in files here they are. Aspire 3.5 files and EPS vector export

www.cnc.rs/mechmate/carving.zip

[Axel1966]

Very nice carving, I love the leafs :)

[danilom]

1200mm central logo , 10mm birch plywood , done with 2mm endmill, some parts of letters are not on the picture. It will be backlit trough 3mm opal acrylic oval 2800 x 2000mm
with a back structure like rays. Will post pictures of it when finished

http://cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/snp_logo/logo_snp.jpg

[Axel1966]

Looks very nice.
Always with Aspire, I guess ?

[danilom]

Yes I use Aspire, but as I mainly do 2D any cam would be sufficient, just got used to aspire. Must say that sometimes with large number of vectors, curves and points its slow on trimming even with a newer computer.

[Axel1966]

Do you use a vector graphic program to create prior to import files into Aspire ?

[danilom]

Autocad always, for any geometry and designing construction parts from simple "how should it look" drawings. Then import in aspire and join, trim as necessary.
This logo was imported from AI, Adobe Illustrator, very nice feature in aspire to import AI directly.

Also I always use the aspire feature, curve fit vectors, to convert all the curves to Bezier curves

[Axel1966]

I only get an evaluation version of Aspire two days ago, I don't know all the features.
Aspire looks like a very complete program, production ready with it's excellent "automatic profiles" feature.
Does Asprire replaces(include) all the other Vectric programs (Cut2D/3D, VCarve, PhotoVcarve...)?
I agree importation features on Asprire are great, I'll be able to import 3DSMax or Rhino files too.
I use those programs Since a long time, as Illustrator as well. Great because I'm not as good with Autocad...

[danilom]

Look here for comparison, only Cut3D and PhotoVcarve have features that Aspire has not.
http://www.vectric.com/WebSite/Vectric/software_comparision.htm

[Surfcnc]

Hi Danilo

Your carving backlit with rays coming out of it, we have to see that !

Ross

[Robert M]

Hy Danilo !
May I ask you, when time permit, share some of cut settings for this nice work with your 2mm cutter ?
I have not yet tried nor practice some cut with such detail work nor with a 2mm cutter !
I’m quite curious to see what consideration are made !!??
Thks in advance.
Amicalement, Robert ;)

[danilom]

2mm DOC and about 1.8m/min feedrate , nothing special. I had some pretty durable cutters, they refused to break even when some pieces that fell apart hit them.

[danilom]

doing some kitchen fronts, and doors carving... I had to make some sort of a hold down.
This removable table worked like a charm.

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/mdf/IMG_1772%20(Small).jpg

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/mdf/IMG_1773%20(Small).jpg

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/mdf/IMG_1775%20(Small).jpg

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/mdf/IMG_1776%20(Small).jpg

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/mdf/IMG_1777%20(Small).jpg

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/mdf/IMG_1778%20(Small).jpg

[danilom]

I had a couple of issues, Y axis constantly was 1-2mm off after the gcode ends. So I repeatedly zeroed it again, checked for mechanical slop but there was none. Only to find what I have found in the past.
While testing some other motors couple of weeks ago, I set Mach3 kernel speed to 45khz. Last time I forgot to put it back to 25khz I had the same situation with X.
So smack on the head and revert to 25khz, problem solved!

[smreish]

Danilo. I too rarely set a machine in the 45K kernel speed.
For whatever reason - bugs pop up at that speed on some motherboards.

[danilom]

Some more Vcarving, it amazes me how fast it is produced and how nice is the effect.

http://cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/kikinda_crkva/stubovi_vcarve.jpg

http://cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/kikinda_crkva/kikinda_vcarve_portal.jpg

[Surfcnc]

Beautiful stuff Danilo.

Regards
Ross

[darren salyer]

Very nice work, Danilo.
I've just purchased aspire 3.5 and spent the weekend watching tutorials.
How long did that huge arch top piece take to carve?

[danilom]

51min , its 1000x500mm

[Pajka]

Danilo car si,the best.

[Johannescnc]

Nice work! Inspiring.
Looks like poplar but I know in Europe they use a different name for it.
Pappel in Germany...

[danilom]

Tilia is a genus of about 30 species of trees native throughout most of the temperate Northern Hemisphere. They are generally called lime in Britain and linden or basswood in North America.

Thats the wood. Its very nice for carving but lacks texture like ash or maple.

[javeria]

Danilo - outstanding - can you post the pic from where you have derived the vectors.

would like to practice some beautiful work myself.

[danilom]

And here is the final piece, crown for the top, and a batten which goes below it and on top of the arch piece.
More pics to come when it gets assembled.

http://cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/kikinda_crkva/IMG_1858%20(Medium).JPG


http://cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/kikinda_crkva/IMG_1860%20(Medium).JPG


http://cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/kikinda_crkva/IMG_1864%20(Medium).JPG


http://cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/kikinda_crkva/IMG_1866%20(Medium).JPG


http://cnc.rs/images/stories/poslovi/kikinda_crkva/IMG_1867%20(Medium).JPG

[javeria]

Looks Great!

[domino11]

Nice! :)

[silverdog]

Bits arrived, will test them soon, its heaviest bit I held and its only 1/2" or 12.7mm

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/compression.jpg
GULP!

Ciao Danilo, I've looket at carbidechiu but can't find any compression bit like the one in the photo, did I misunderstood who is your supplier ?
thanks
Sergio

[danilom]

These are not from him, I got these from Leitz tooling USA outlet store on ebay. 5 for 55$, original price was 105$ each. I can't find the store any more it looks like they closed their acc, you can look at here for onsrud outlet they also have nice prices and always something new, just be sure to look every now and then and you will get the superb price on compression spirals
http://stores.ebay.com/LMT-Onsrud-Router-Bits-and-Blades

All other bits I use are from carbidechiu and I order them directly from him. Ball and ordinary endmills all work great and are quality stuff.

Forgot to add, I found a local source for nice compression bits 8mm, great for plywood cut at once. They are about 30eur a piece.

[silverdog]

Thank you Danilo

[HomeMadeCnc]

Nice Job! I like you hold down system too.
Cheers!
Tim #79

[danilom]

And now for something completely different !

Vlada and I made molds for our local bus manufacturer, the chassis is from Mercedes and all plastic parts were made by two of us.

Dashboard, led display arch above entrance and fender edge (I think) by Vlada, drivers cabin and all back seat surrounding by me.

Enjoy! Here is a video of routing Necuron and MDF molds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ0nCgBZRZ8


The bus was shown at the fair and we got some pictures from there too

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/bus/IMG_2910%20(Medium).JPG
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/bus/IMG_2911%20(Medium).JPG
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/bus/IMG_2912%20(Medium).JPG
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/bus/IMG_2915%20(Medium).JPG
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/bus/IMG_2921%20(Medium).JPG
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/bus/IMG_2922%20(Medium).JPG

[danilom]

And here are some images while the stuff was still on the Mechmate

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/bus/IMG_2902%20(Medium).JPG
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/bus/IMG_2900%20(Medium).JPG
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/bus/IMG_2889%20(Medium).JPG
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/bus/IMG_2855%20(Medium).JPG
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/bus/IMG_2852%20(Medium).JPG
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/bus/IMG_2893%20(Medium).JPG
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/bus/IMG_2895%20(Medium).JPG

[dbinokc]

Very cool. Is this for a prototype of the bus or is it in actual use?

[Fox]

Cool job, did you seal the mdf before you cut it !? I heard you can get great mold surface quality, when you impregnate the rough mould with resin, before the final cut is done. The resin will soak into the mdf quite deep, so your final surface quality is great...

[danilom]

We just cut it and then the molding guys did the rest of magic :)
the cabin mold you see was made of necuron, polyurethane board pretty nice stuff, machines like a dream but static electricity get's it everywhere

Its an actual bus meant for production run (250pcs /year)

[silverdog]

I propose Danilo Mechmater of the year !!! :-)

[danilom]

:) Vlada was in worst position we made him the gcode and he was running machine blind not even knowing how the parts look like, except on mach preview screen :)

Programming was all done in RhinoCAM, for this type of work its irreplaceable.

[Tom Ayres]

Excellent work, congrats to you guys!

[lonestaral]

Very impressive.

[darren salyer]

Wow. Incredible stuff.

[domino11]

Very Nice! :)

[pblackburn]

I do enjoy your posts. Thank you.

[Jason Marsha]

Congratulations guys. Excellent work.

Do you have to make more moulds for the company?

[racedirector]

That IS pretty cool, congrats on the job. Did they come to you or did you go out selling your services?

[danilom]

Jason : it will be difficult to sell this model, but if they design a new one well get more moulds :)


Bruce: Primary customers come trough our website, one thing I learned is that if you don't like to walk a lot put up a nice website (use wordpress), optimize the keywords and voila !
Each year I double the number of visitors, first year 10, next 20 and now on an average day 30 unique visitors. (google analytics)

[Andrew_standen]

Nice work.

[akelemen]

Danilo, I am planning to build a MechMate in Hungary. May I ask you where did you order the laser cut and bent parts?

Many thanks!

[danilom]

Being from Hungary you will be better finding a laser or waterjet cutter near you to do the job then shipping heavy parcel.

And if you have a question about lasercut parts there is a thread just for that, no need to post in all european threads :)

[akelemen]

Thanks for the quick reply! Actually, I posted first in a more general thread, where I received the advice to post on the threads of European builders. :-)

Can you perhaps send me the DXF files for the laser cut and bent parts so that I can contact a local company with them?

[danilom]

I think they come with the plans you buy to build the mechmate, ask Mike he is the owner (metalhead username on the forum)

[akelemen]

I did buy the plans two days ago, but these are only the PDF files. I also asked Mike for the dxf file but haven't received an answer yet. So that I wasn't sure how others ordered their laser cut parts and started to ask around.

[Fox]

From the download section:
If you are looking for the Laser Cut and Bent files please PM MetalHead.
So he should be able to help you with those. Hope he answers you soon.

[darren salyer]

Sometimes Mike is away for a few days with his Day Job.
I'm sure he'll pop in and take care of you.

[danilom]

Just a teaser

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/zaxis%20(Small).jpg

1610 ballscrew
20mm round rails
spindle mount

With Am882 drives I get more than 1600 RPM on the shaft so 16.000mm/min rapid on Z axis , up or down makes no difference. The aluminium block, bearings and spindle seem too light to back drive and drop, so the Z axis stays in place without any help.

[pblackburn]

Looks well made. I am curious of the position of the spindle in the mount and how you get the 200mm of travel and still have clearances.

[danilom]

I got full 200mm clearance with the longest endmill (100mm or more) and still able to touch the spoilboard with the tip of the spindle.

[pblackburn]

I don't doubt it. Just the teaser pic have me thinking.

[Alan_c]

Looks very good Danilo, enough teasing, lets see it installed!

[pblackburn]

Heck, just a video of it running on the bench would be awesome.

[Fox]

I would mount your spindle on the other side ( the long slide).

[IN-WondeR]

I'm just wondering. What stepper motor brand are you using?? 1600rpm on the shaft sounds like a lot.

[Surfcnc]

The stepper driver he is using is a good one.
Lots of digital tricks inside.

Ross

[IN-WondeR]

I know, I'm running the same drives on my CNC. But I'm having trouble getting much more than 600rpm from my motors without sensorless stall detection kicking in on my drives.

[pblackburn]

I have run an AMCI stepper with a Gecko drive controlled by an Oriental Motor controller at 50 rev/sec. It all depends on the hardware and that is within the spec of the particular stepper.

[Surfcnc]

Statements like that are meaningless as whatever you have set your microstepping to significantly impacts that performance.

Ross

[Surfcnc]

Also weight and friction of your set up impacts on performance.
There is just not enough to go on to make any comparison.

Ross

[pblackburn]

Fair enough. I can only tell you that we were testing the limits of the drive to see if it was robust enough to be put into production. We only require a lower rev of 20 but needed to run tests on an unproven component in our setting per our engineers. We were trying to reach the stall point of the motor as our approved driver would not go above 20. I did not want to run above the spec sheet. I was only stating that they can be run faster is everything is correct. I do stand corrected Ross, sorry for the misleading post.

[IN-WondeR]

My entire machine is running on square type rails, and they run very nicely.
But if I try to get greater speed from the motors than 600rpm, then the motors stall. I'm affraid that it might be those rather cheap chinese motors that I've got. I might save some money and get some better quality motors, perhaps even the ones from Leadshine which is pre programmed into the drives.

[Surfcnc]

Hi Pete

I was referring to Kim's statement so your in the clear :)
Kim's post was just one of these "well mine's not working" statements that leaves a little too much to guesswork.

Ross

[Surfcnc]

Hi Kim

Your supply voltage has an impact on this.

Ross

[IN-WondeR]

My setup is this.

70vdc PSU
1600oz-in motors on all axis (Longsmotor)
8x microstepping.

2010 ballscrews on x and y, 1610 ballscrew on z.

[danilom]

I am running same motor as before Deitech 9802 on 48 volts.
I was able to run X and Y axis to around 42m/min, but I am still using 18m/min to lower the tear and wear on pinions and rack (the rack is not perfect and I get a lot of noise on higher speeds)

Fox, mounting the spindle to the longer plate is not adequate, no manufacturer in the world does it, it was the main reason to make a new Z.
First reason is that for the same clearance you need higher gantry.
Considering that the spindle body is stiff you use its strength to stretch the Z down.
Second is that plate, spindle and bearings have smaller weight to pull up than large plate, guides and spindle.
Stiffness is the same as the bearings have constant load rating.

Here are some pictures to illustrate above statements.

MULTICAM Z AXIS
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/2011-09-27_10-29-15_163.jpg


Moving bearings VS moving rails, spindle position is a bit different as I experimented a bit but found that spindle in the middle of mount is satisfactory

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/Screenshot%202014-07-18%2019.22.11.png

[danilom]

Also, the 90% of cutting happens while the Z i lowered all the way down.

Moving bearings has the same stiffness all the way but moving rails has lowest stiffness while lowered to do the finish cut.

[IN-WondeR]

I just checked the specs on the motors you are running.

I can see the phase resistance and inductance is way different than on my longsmotors.

The Deitec 9802 has a phase inductance of only 2.4mH, where mine has 22mH, and a phase resistance of only 0.65 Ohm And mine is 1.9 Ohm. I have heard before that to high a phase inductance can cause low stall speeds.

So I'm guessing that might be the trouble with my motors.

[Surfcnc]

Hi Kim

Your motor wiring also impacts on keeping torque up at higher revs.
We have a habit here of wiring only one half of the coils but bipolar parallel gives the most "power" if you have 8 wires available but demands the most from your PSU. You are already high on voltage at 70V so probably little to be gained there.

I also see that you are using 1600oz-in motors.
I have been solidly whipped trying to tune large NEMA 34 size motors in the past to run at high speed. Even to the point of assuming the motor was faulty, bought another to have the weak performance of the "big" motor continue.

My only solution to stop missed steps was to use a belt reduction, this returned the power and the motor still was able to achieve the traverse speed required all be it at a higher RPM.
On my Mechmate installing a 4:1 reduction did produce a reduction in top speed over the ungeared motor so there is no free lunch.

If you are thinking about new motors probably lots of spec reading and a reread of the motors section here on the forum might be the solution.
As you are a Leadshine fan, the next level up on drivers that has the encoder feedback, the 'Easy Servo" range has the additional ability to play catch up like a servo does.

I have tested these drives and they are a very different animal even to the setup you currently have.
The heating is very low to the point of near ambient temps unless worked hard. They also manage torque differently.
In my tests a smaller 1000 oz-in motor provided far more power the larger NEMA 34 std stepper.
This is of course expensive but as I have already confessed to replacing motors randomly to fix a problem, there is nothing worse than spending more money to have the same issue remain unsolved.

Ross

[Fox]

I think it could be friction, weight of your machine and the motors in your case Kim. I thought you could disable the stall detection somewhere in the leadshine software.

At 1600 rpm you must be loosing torque danilo ? And for a z I see not much use at those crazy speeds ?

[danilom]

Kim for the motors you have, right drives would be some like Leadshine ND2282 AC80-220V 0.45-8.2A where you could use very high voltage to get some RPM from those motors.

22mH is way too much of inductance and detent torque.

[danilom]

Fox, I said that it was tested up to 16m/min , I use 12m/min

When you get a job to cut 100s of parts of 1000 of holes to drill having a fast Z retract counts in. Same way as XY rapids. Jogging around 2x3 meters machine is no fun at 5m/min.

For a 160 eur investment in parts and some drilling this proved to be a good investment. Detailed pictures later :)

[IN-WondeR]

Kim for the motors you have, right drives would be some like Leadshine ND2282 AC80-220V 0.45-8.2A where you could use very high voltage to get some RPM from those motors.

22mH is way too much of inductance and detent torque.

I had the phase inductanse suspected to be the trouble...

I might save up, and get my self some servo drives from DMM-tech instead when time and money is for it. :)

[Fox]

Danilo I do not totally agree on your assumptions. It depends on the travel you want. I want large travel, the rails stiffen the larger plate. Yes, you move more weight, in my case less relevant with the spindle being most of it. I do not see why you would need a higher gantry ? I have 650 mm reach on my z. Standard 200 mm to spoilboard. I bet mine or yours make no difference at that distance, mine might even be stiffer, as I have rect rails, plate and spindle stiffening at that point, compared to your round rail wagon, plate spindle. But its no pissing contest, your happy with yours and I am with mine.

[Surfcnc]

Thanks Danilo for the specifics on the motors.

My limited understanding is to avoid high inductance motors if you want high RPM as the back EMF becomes huge with increasing RPM.
That is how your sensor less stall detection works, it detects the rise in the back EMF and trips out on a stall.

Ross

[IN-WondeR]

Yes, thank you for the informations. Even though I'm not running a Mechmate anymore, and haven't been for some years now, I can still get some good info on this site.

I will think about getting some better motors some time in the future, for now I'll run at slower speeds, my machine is only 1.2x1.4m cutting area, so at 6m/min it gets to the end at an ok speed for now, But I would love to get 10m/min from it, just because I could. :)

Otherwise I'll wait until I get the $2500 for a compete set from DMM-Tech or something like that. :)

[danilom]

Its no contest, just raw facts.

My axis has 500mm of rails and 300mm of travel.
Moving bearings works for sheet cutting machines (160-200mm Z clearance) if you want 650mm of travel for doing foam then moving rails wins as its stiffer while all the way up and same all the way down.
Removing spoilboards or lowering it for one off jobs, I don't see it justifiable to make or use. Large clearance can be good for foam only and that then asks for a dedicated machine.
In my case I had one evening of my free time to mount and tram the new Z until new job next morning.

Can you mount a 120mm long endmill 10mm ball nose and clear a 200mm material from spoilboard without removing it?

Assuming 15 or 20mm rails are to stiffen something is just not something you can hear from any machinist or engineer. I know that debate on this was on mycncuk forum and I am not willing to participate. I tend to look at the industrial machines and use solutions that they found to work in last 30 years or so. Fact is that I have not seen a sheet router with moving plate and rails of any large manufacturer.

[pblackburn]

Danilo are you going to use bellows of some type to minimize contaminate infiltration?

[danilom]

Well I thought about bellows, and found a shop that custom makes them. they will limit some travel but there is a plenty of it.

Bearing pillows are easy to replace or clean and cheap and only thing to replace is a bearing, I might try felt wipers first.
The ballscrew is a bit different it needs some lubrication and should definitely be protected somehow. On the other side with a good dust collection very little dust is going to get to it.

After first couple of cuts this type of Z seems more sturdy less vibration and more clearance for everyone on a budget and for the same money as old Z.

[Fox]

Its no contest, just raw facts.
I respectfully do not agree, but I am just trying to be a devils advocate here. I am not trying to get you up the closet, as I respect your contributions, and your experience on this forum and machine. See your quote below for instance, those are opinions.. well thought out, or motivated they may be, but subjective reasoning nevertheless.

Removing spoilboards or lowering it for one off jobs, I don't see it justifiable to make or use. Large clearance can be good for foam only and that then asks for a dedicated machine.
In my case I had one evening of my free time to mount and tram the new Z until new job next morning.

I do for one do not think I need to built a dedicated foam cutter for my business, but I do like that I can do it with my machine when the needs comes around so often. My extended Z was not intended for milling steel at 600 mm, but wood, plastic and foam, all at relative speeds. I have all sort of weird jobs coming along, for which the extended Z gives me options, instead of restrictions.

Fact is that I have not seen a sheet router with moving plate and rails of any large manufacturer.
I think I have, but I have not researched that properly I admit, fact is that none of the big manufacturers use round linears, use rack an pinion, use v-guide rails, use mdf spoilboards, use round tubular frames etc. MM has. are you using rectangular linear guides on this new machine on all your axis ? and helical rack and pinion or ballscrews ? Probably not. That's the point I was trying to make originally when things are posed as facts, it's makes everybody with an MM a bit silly.

When you get a job to cut 100s of parts of 1000 of holes to drill having a fast Z retract counts in.
Cause you say you live by the book of the big manufacturers : why do you not use an air drill and mount it with an offset, no need for toolchange and equal pricing and fast ?

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTc2WDEwMjQ=/z/MP0AAOSwVFlT~0X5/$_20.JPG

Your spindle ( I imagine chinese) is not intended for drilling hundred thousands of holes (speeds, torque, bearings). Or are you actually adding this Z as your second Z and sacrifice the drill spindle ( they do not cost the world)?

Can you mount a 120mm long endmill 10mm ball nose and clear a 200mm material from spoilboard without removing it?

In fact I can, gantry height foremost determines clearance in my book/situ, not your Z. although you can move your cutter higher up then me I will agree. I can even mill 45 degrees or 90 degrees with my Z ( not with the same clearance though :) ) also somthing I will not do daily, but does come handy at weird jobs. I do not have an MM- Z by the way.

Assuming 15 or 20mm rails are to stiffen something is just not something you can hear from any machinist or engineer It depends on how you look at things, fact: they do stiffen things, especially with bolt holes every 50 mm... compared to a plain sheet without. But they do not offer as much as my 15 mm thick alu sides I have forming an U of my Z. I have also left room/option for putting on a front slab as well, but I think it's more then stiff enough right now.

[danilom]

this sentence should be with OR. My mistake.

cut 100s of parts OR 1000 of holes to drill. Someone who drills 1000 of holes everyday for sure needs an air drill or some dedicated drill.

And I would like to see a solution to fit the dust collector hose, spindle and an air drill in the mechmate car.

For a same gantry height or mount position of Z axis I can't see how it would clear the same height with position of lower bearings being the limiting factor. Do a comparison drawing like I did with spindle in up and down position and post it here I would like to see your solution.

What I say is always based not on theoretical assumptions but drawn from my personal experience on working with the machine. Maybe I just like to leave large foam work to someone with a machine more capable of doing it and earn more while cutting sheets (this is subjective). This same applies to the thread about metal routing.

[pblackburn]

I still just admire you guys that make use this for a living. It is a real expensive hobby for me. But I like to make things. I like to improve things. I think I see what both of you are saying. I will say there is never a perfect design but one that is most feasible for the individual application. Sometimes if we get out of our own way of thinking we can learn more.

As far as the adding a drill, I have looked at making a lower speed 80mm spindle for drilling and milling that could be easily swapped out when the high speed spindle is not feasible. Have not got much beyond the thinking stage but with the constraints of the Y car, this looked more appealing.

[danilom]

I think I have, but I have not researched that properly I admit, fact is that none of the big manufacturers use round linears, use rack an pinion, use v-guide rails, use mdf spoilboards, use round tubular frames etc. MM has. are you using rectangular linear guides on this new machine on all your axis ? and helical rack and pinion or ballscrews ? Probably not. That's the point I was trying to make originally when things are posed as facts, it's makes everybody with an MM a bit silly.

I missed this one. 5 years ago when I started to think of building a MechMate I had zero cnc real life experience. Mechmate for me was a big piece of iron, biggest machine I have ever seen and not SILLY at all.
From that time I saw and learned a lot. A MechMate is a very good startup machine for someone meaning business or a hobbyist. There are couple of proofs on forum that guys advanced to some heavier machines.

About big manufacturers... I said use "solutions", the design decisions. Not use same components, if we all had that kind of money we would not be on this forum. Every machine is a next step up in quality and value, Mechmate design for me takes the perfect all around good machine for the money. And a great experience as you will hopefully find out.

MechMate did came from improving the previous design I think... Shopbot. These days some components are more available and cheaper so we can use them to improve or build new machines for us. Not that everyone has to.


Please report back after couple of years using a MechMate and inform us if you have accomplished the "Good quality edges" on acrylic that you asked about. Thanks :)

[pblackburn]

Ok, now that all that is out of the way. Is the 1610 ballscrew preloaded?

[danilom]

Its standard order rolled ballscrew 50$ delivered from Aliexpress. I think it has around 0.05mm (0.002 inch) of backlash or bit more just like the other ballscrews I ordered from china. For a router perfectly acceptable.

On a mill I have two ballnuts working together to lower the backlash, loaded with a strong spring. Putting oversized balls is a simpler solution but for sure increases wear.

[Fox]

Please report back after couple of years using a MechMate and inform us if you have accomplished the "Good quality edges" on acrylic that you asked about. Thanks

Good memory. Will do. My machine is supposed to make first cuts this week somewhere, reason I was looking on the forum for some answers on issues. When everything is running I will update my thread with pics (made a lot during the process-but skipped the thread updating in favor of building lately).
As I wrote I already have modified the Z as it seemed a weaker point to me, and I use a beefed up frame. But if cut quality/speed is not what I hope, I will upgrade after a year or so an make the gantry to a single beam 200 mm steel beam and use linear guides ( already have 2x3meter THK for my Y ) then it will look a lot like those major manufacturers ;) but then my frame becomes the weakspot...so yes you are never really done....soo... first things first.... :-)


I have a question for you: Is it normal that steppers make a irregular hissing sound when they are idle ( machine stands still - no movement ? ) It dissapears when moving jogging all sound fine then. I have it on all axis. Deitech 9801 motors leadshine AM882 drives. Auto tuned drives by flipping the miniswitch.

[ger21]

I will think about getting some better motors some time in the future, for now I'll run at slower speeds, my machine is only 1.2x1.4m cutting area, so at 6m/min it gets to the end at an ok speed for now, But I would love to get 10m/min from it, just because I could. :)


Get yourself some low inductance 600oz motors, and you should double or triple your speeds.
I've seen someone switch from 1600oz motors to 400oz motors (Nema34), and get a 5x increase in speed.

Those 1600oz motors inductance is way too high. They are far bigger motors than anyone needs on a router, and really a poor choice for a router. But since they're cheap and easily found on Ebay, I've seen many people buy them thinking bigger is better, and then find out they don't work well at all.

[pblackburn]

Is the teaser installed yet?

[danilom]

Installed and working, no vibrations at all on the cutter (sounds different, tone is deeper)
I also upped the feedrates a fair bit around 30% , with same motors and AM882 I managed up to 2000 RPM on the 10mm pithc ballscrew so around 20m/min rapid feedrate.

Maybe my case is not that comparable to others using BWC or similar V wheels as mine were made out two deep grove bearings, but these cheap linear bearings made a whole lot of difference for me. As four cost around 28$ thats cheaper than wheels, my gauge plate was around 40$ and the 1m of rail already mounted to aluminium carrier was around 50$.

Dust is no problem the wipers do the job I just did not oil the rails. if it wears in couple of years for 68$ I'll replace them :)

Got the vertical Z lined up in seconds.

[pblackburn]

How did you set the adjustment to tram the spindle?

[danilom]

Replaced the MM with this :)

http://www.cnc.rs/mechmate/Leadwell%20MCV.jpg

Preparing couple of parts for new machines.

[domino11]

Oh no did you sell the MM? :)

[danilom]

Unfortunately had no space for it any more.

But I am building a smaller one :)

[silverdog]

looks like you don't use plywood anymore :-)

[digger]

looks like you don't use plywood anymore :-)

plywoon no more, but wood - under the machine. :)

[danilom]

Can't live without some piece of wood being the part of the machine :)

for my next transition .... from Mach3 to Linuxcnc.... Blame is on "digger' as he supplied me with one excellent piece of hardware .... Mesa 7i76E

[racedirector]

Oh you'll like Linuxcnc, give PathPilot a go while you're at it. Nice simple interface that looks Mach3-ish

[danilom]

These two builds of mine might be interesting to some so here they are

2070 x 3000mm 3kw spindle
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/3kw_2070x3000.jpg


1500 x 3200mm 5.5kw spindle
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/5.5kw_1500x3200.jpg


belt drive
http://cnc.rs/mechmate/belt_drive2.jpg

[danilom]

Forgot one, this spindle is the real deal it just barely fit inside the Y-car

http://cnc.rs/mechmate/5.5kw_spindle_cnc_router.jpg

[Fox]

Nice, are you building MM's now for a living or are you seriously expanding the hobbyshed ?

[danilom]

If only you could make a living out of these :)

I mostly do electronics and parts like belt drive and Z axis

[Alan_c]

Nice! Neat looking belt drive.