Upgrading the spindle already! - Myerstown PA USA

[SumBum]

Hello Everyone,

I'm a violin maker who recently had back surgery. I've been looking for something to help me with the rough carving to enable me to continue making violins. I thought of building a duplicarver but saw a cnc mill and got excited about the idea.

I thought of building one of the 8020 extruded machines but like the idea of this all steel machine. It may be a bit overkill but my wife already has a million projects for me to make with this machine once done.

I am new to cnc so bear with my questions.

[domino11]

Welcome to the forum. Are you sure you do not want to pick a better name to be called by? :)

[sailfl]

Bum,

It will be great to see a fine musical instrument made with a MechMate. Good luck with your build.

How large of a machine are you thinking of making?

[SumBum]

Bum,

It will be great to see a fine musical instrument made with a MechMate. Good luck with your build.

How large of a machine are you thinking of making?

I'm thinking of a cutting area of 96" x 48" I sometimes make toys and such for kids out of maple plywood. Carriages, Rocking chairs etc. Just cut on my bandsaw and then routed. The cnc would make em in bulk.. :D.

Welcome to the forum. Are you sure you do not want to pick a better name to be called by? :)

Trust me.. The name Fits.;)

[domino11]

Ok, no disrespect intended, note the :) after the comment.

[SumBum]

Ok, no disrespect intended, note the :) after the comment.

None Taken.:)

Can anyone tell me how much room I'm going to need to have a 8'x4' cutting surface and have enough room around it to be able to load a sheet of ply into it.? I'm just trying to decide if I can cram it into my shop or if I'll need to put it in the garage.

[sailfl]

You load from the ends so you only need enough room on the sides for the size of your tummy! Kidding aside, you need room to be able to walk around the sides. I have just more space at the back where I have some boards stored but the front is how I load large sheets.

[bradm]

Floor footprint of machine will be 10 to 11 feet by 6 to 7 feet. You'll want a 2-3 foot aisle off one end of the machine to facilitate bit changes. Then you have to decide if you're loading from the end (easy, but needs 8+ feet of clearance), or over the rail.

Mine is against a wall the long way, with a 30" aisle at the 0,0 short end, restricted access to the 98",50" end. I have to move the gantry out to 98", load a sheet over the rail, and slide it under the gantry, which is a pain, but it's the only space I have, at least until I use the MM to build a shed for itself. There is another 30" aisle along the long side, and then my cabinet saw, so the two share the aisle as material movement space. Overall, I'm in a 20' x 20' double garage.

I occasionally have to climb onto the table to clamp or access items at the far side. In a perfect world, I'd want 2'+ aisles on both long edges, and an 8' space off one short edge, so total footprint would be 9 feet by 11 feet, with an additional 9 by 9 foot loading area (that could be shared with low height stuff), for a total working envelope of 9 x 20.

[SumBum]

Maybe if I design the MM height the same as my cabinet saw outfeed table I can get rid of it and use the MM as my outfeed when using the saw.. Then I'd have a ton of room around it with exception to one short end which would have the saw up against it. But lower the blade on the saw and move the fence off to the side and I would be able to load the MM from that end.

[sailfl]

Bum,

Most cabinet saws are higher than what you need for you MM. Do you want to lift a full sheet of MDF or Plywood that high? But that is your choice.

[SumBum]

Bum,

Most cabinet saws are higher than what you need for you MM. Do you want to lift a full sheet of MDF or Plywood that high? But that is your choice.

Seems negligible to me as I already rip full sheets on my saw now. So I'm already lifting it that high.

[swatkins]

Maybe if I design the MM height the same as my cabinet saw outfeed table I can get rid of it and use the MM as my outfeed when using the saw.. Then I'd have a ton of room around it with exception to one short end which would have the saw up against it. But lower the blade on the saw and move the fence off to the side and I would be able to load the MM from that end.

This is exactly what I did... My table surface is 34 inches high... When finished the X rails of my MM will be 33.25". This will allow me to place a 3/4" "table top" across the x rails and form the out feed table for my saw.

[SumBum]

Well I have been re-aranging my shop the past couple of weeks and have a spot for the Mechmate now that will allow it to have room around it to work.
I printed out the plans and have been reading as much as I can on this site.
I think I have the mechanical stuff understood and feel confident I can put together a strong reliable machine.
The electronics are going to be my demise though. The more I read, the less sure I am about making the right choices. I'm a hands on learner. I just need to order everything for the kitchen table project and dive in before I even start on anything related to steel.

[jhiggins7]

Bum,

Welcome. Looking forward to your build.

You should do fine. If you get stuck, just post pictures and questions and folks on the Forum will give you a hand.

[KenC]

Bum,
You had chose wisely :)
Start with the kitchen table project go a long way.
Wish you a wonderful building experience.

[SumBum]

I opened the flood gates and started ordering parts.. I'm on a tight budget because of being out of work after my back surgery, So I have been racking my brain to find the best "less" expensive solution and reading this forum has become my new job.
I considered building a Wood table but found surplus steel at a good price locally. I went away from the norm on drives and motors which will probably haunt me, but at least I'll learn something from it.
I haven't received any packages yet but I suspect my Parts From Mike will get here first.

Right now I'm staring at the inductance on the motor ratings wondering if the inductance listed is correct.
Wired Bipolar parallel: (600 oz/in)they are rated 7amps,1.82 volts, Resistance .26 and inductance of 1.2..
Series: (600 oz/in) 3.5 amps, 3.7 volts, 1.06 resistance and inductance 4.8
Unipolar (450 oz/in) 5 amps, 2.6 volts, .53 resistance and inductance 1.2

I want to use them Unipolar so I calculated needing 35.05 volts from the inductance rating but read that motors want up to 20 times the rated voltage. 20 x 2.6v 52 volts
I sent an email to the manufacturer asking the power supply requirements of these motors wired unipolar.

[jhiggins7]

Hey Bum,

Is there a reason you aren't sharing the model and manufacturer of these steppers? I'm interested in what you find out.

If you are a bit handy with electronics and can stay below 50 volts (I saw the 56 volts in your post) and 3 amps, you might check-out Anil's DIY Drivers and BOB. He used an Open Circuit design. He seems to have been successful with them. It would also require using Belt Reduction Drives or something like the OM 7.2 Geared drives.

[SumBum]

I saw the motors on Ebay for a decent price and Emailed the seller for more information. He doesn't list a model number just a picture of specs. I'm waiting to hear back from him with more info before I order.

[jhiggins7]

I figured it was something like that. Good luck. Hope it works out for you. Let us know.

Have you decided what driver you are going to use? I know that as soon as I got my used motors from Ebay, the first thing I wanted to do was test them with a driver. I happened to have a low tech driver and power supply so I could see them turn. Then I purchase the Gecko's and the PMDX-122 and built my toroidal based power supply before I was sure the used motors were working correctly.

[SumBum]

I have Leadshine M880a Drivers, I'm hoping they will work well combined with the pmdx-122 and those motors with 4:1 belt reduction.
I just found a Hoffman enclosure 24"x18"x8" for $35. :)

I'm stressing over the power supply. I want to build one but I'm going to need someone to help me with getting the right transformer. Not to save money but rather the experience of it.

[bradm]

Bum, no worries. Just let us know the voltage and amperage you want - Or let us know your final call on the motors and driver specs - and we'll help you get the parts for the power supply. You'll be surprised how easy it turns out to be.

[Richards]

With Geckodrive stepper drivers, I would use a MAXIMUM of 35VDC for a motor with 1.2mH inductance. Usually I use anywhere from 50% to 85% of the maximum voltage, depending on the top speed that I need. Lower voltage allows the motors to run cooler. Higher voltage allows the motors to run faster.

All of the Oriental Motor stepper motors that I normally use can easily hit 2,500 RPM when run at the maximum voltage, i.e. 32 X SQRT( Inductance); however I can't see the need to run a motor faster than 1,000 RPM on a CNC machine.

If the motor is geared 7.2:1 and uses a 1.5" pinion gear, 1,000 RPM would allow a jog speed of about 10 inches per second. A 1.25" pinion gear would allow a jog speed of about 9" per second. Cut speeds will depend on the material, the cutter and the depth of cut, but on my Shopbot PRT-Alpha machine, I very rarely cut faster than 5 inches per second. Each type of material and each type of cutter seems to have a 'sweet spot' where the quality of cut dictates the speed. Because I don't like to sand, I let the machine show me the best speed.

If you can borrow a Variac transformer, you can easily find the suitable DC voltage for your stepper motors. A Variac is inserted into the AC BEFORE the output transformer. It is used to adjust the AC voltage going TO the transformer. (NEVER use a variac in place of a transformer and NEVER place the variac after the transformer - you'll get smoke.) When I'm checking for optimum settings, I use a 50VAC transformer, which puts out about 70VDC, but with the Variac, I can easily adjust the AC voltage to get any DC voltage that the Gecko can handle. (A Variac goes from 0% to 140% of line voltage.)

The goal is to use the lowest DC voltage that gives you adequate speed. That will give you the coolest motor temperature. Stepper motors quickly lose torque as speed increases, so trying to get excessive speed will require long acceleration ramps which would also lead to problems. Most stepper motors have a low speed range where they run rougher than normal (harmonic jitter). If the acceleration ramp is too long, the motor will stay in that rough area longer than desired.

Telling someone to use 35V when they have PK296A2A-SG7.2 motors and Gecko G203v stepper drivers will assure that they have a tried and tested combination. But, when you use other components, you'll get to go through the process of testing to find what works best for you. Start conservatively (lower voltage) and work towards higher voltages until the motors run too hot. Most motors have insulation that allows them to run at 80C, so they'll be too hot to touch. Personally, I limit my motors to 65C, which is still too hot to handle comfortably, but I don't like the smell of scorched finger tips.

[SumBum]

I got an email back from the seller of those Motors I mentioned earlier (modelshopcnc). He recommends a 48v 800 watt supply for 4 of those motors wired Bipolar Parallel with my drives.

I am planning on wiring them Unipolar and before hearing back from him and before hearing From Mike here, I had worked out getting a 36 volt 400va Transformer from Antek model # AN-4218.

Now after hearing from Mike I think I should probably go down to a 24v 300va transformer? If my math is correct this would give me 34vdc. #AN-3212:confused:

[MetalHead]

Go back and read through the motors threads. We need to talk about the power supply for sure at this point.

Here is a good link. http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7283&postcount=1

What parts have you ordered to date if any? If you have not , lets talk about the motors and drives a little bit before you go forward with purchases.

[bradm]

Bum, a minor terminology point: Are you sure you're planning to run Unipolar (6 wire)? Both the Geckos, and the M880A drivers you mentioned (http://www.americanmotiontech.com/Products/SteppingDrives/MSeries/M880A.htm) are Bipolar (4 wire) drivers, so I think what you mean to be saying is half-coil (which is bipolar, but which uses the same calculations as unipolar, thus the confusion).

[SumBum]

I can read these posts a million times but until I get my hands dirty and am forced to find a solution to a problem, None of it is going to sink in. It's just how I learn..

I think you are correct Brad

[Richards]

One of the questions that can't be answered is how your stepper drivers differ from the Geckodrive G203v that many of us use. If you visit the Geckodrive site (http://www.geckodrive.com), you'll find a lot of good basic information about stepper motors. Mariss has published several formulas that will get you started; but, remember that his formulas are tailored to his products. You may find that your stepper driver has slightly different requirements than the Gecko products.

The MechMate community always helps each other as much as possible, but when you have parts that nobody else has used, you become the tester. Some people don't realize that testing new or different products can cost more than buying a tested and proven product. (I have been known to 'blow up' electronics from time to time. Accidents happen and miscalculations can cause instant grief, but that's the price we all pay for doing it ourselves.)

[SumBum]

This isn't MM related but was fun to put in. I spent the afternoon making my wife happy by putting a new water heater. So far I'm pretty impressed with this tankless unit.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b95/Glenguitars/MechMate/003.jpg

[Regnar]

SumBum, I installed a tankless electric in my house and wished we installed it earlier. Never running out of hot water and not having to heat water you are not using is great.

It looks like you have a Natural Gas Tankless. If you do you might want to check with your local codes on having a copper fuel line. Natural Gas is not corrosive but the sulfur that give the gas its rotten egg smell is. I know steel is a pain to install but if anything was to happen later on and the insurace company finds out you might end up eating the loss.

Either way these things are great and the prices for the units are coming down to almost the cost of a regular water heater. I know it has saved us a lot on electricity.

[SumBum]

Hi Russell, Were going from a failing solar hot water system to this. The solar system was very old and corroded and is causing our electric consumption to go up more and more.

I wish I could get natural gas where I live. That soft copper line runs outside to a propane tank.

[sailfl]

Yep, propane uses Kiing Copper!

[revved_up]

If your out in the country far enough to have propane you probably are on well water, when I checked into those units a couple of years ago they told me that I shouldnt get one cause our water was too hard, and I run through 2 big filters and a softner before it gets to the water heater.

[SumBum]

Parts have started to arrive so I decided to work on the Y-car while I wait for the rest of my control parts to get here. I'm a little worried about where #10 30 422 welds to 10 30 455. 10 30 422 is under-bent leaving a gap of about 10 mm (7/16")on one side and 6 mm on the other. I'm trying to decide if I should just force it down, tack it and then take a torch to the bend to relieve the stress or should I just try to get someone to re-bend it.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b95/Glenguitars/MechMate/022.jpg

[riesvantwisk]

Bum,
10mm for that part doesn't sound like a issue at all, we had the same...
It's metal it can bend..., so I would tack weld it in place and then make final welds according to scheme.

Ries

[Gerald D]

Just "force" (push) it down and weld. Don't worry about heat treatment afterwards.

[SumBum]

Thank you for the quick replies. Back to work...:D

[SumBum]

Well I got my Y-car welded up and primed waiting to go pick up my steel for the table tomorrow. I got my motors,drives,power wired up to test. I get green lights on the drives and the motors lock up when powered up but the computer I ordered hasn't arrived, so no movement yet.:(

Ive been searching around for wire and I'm wondering if there is a reason (other than the work of added connections) for not using high flex cables in the cable chains only. I was thinking maybe it would be possible for plug connections at each end of the cable chain and eliminate the need for so much high dollar wire.

[KenC]

Bum,
It is not mandatory to use high flex cable. You can have any screened cable as long as you conform to the minimum allowable bending radius stated by the manufacturer. There are no real space restrain in MM design.

[SumBum]

Thanks Ken

My motors Are Turning. I'm so relieved.:D:D:D:D

[Gerald D]

Turning motors! Well done!

[riesvantwisk]

Congrats with the kitchen table project :)

We need to see some pictures though ;)

Ries

[SumBum]

I'll get some pictures taken as soon as I figure out where my kids hid (lost)the camera.:mad:

[riesvantwisk]

Great, looking forward to it !

[SumBum]

I finally got out to the Steel salvage yard to dig around for what I need. I managed to find suitable steel for everything but the rails and the gantry. It'll take some clean up before paint but a good deal at $ .45 a lb. My son was nice enough to haul it all home in his Jeep there.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b95/Glenguitars/MechMate/010.jpg
820 lbs there. Plus some tubing I already had.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b95/Glenguitars/MechMate/012.jpg
Figuring out how to cram all this stuff into this box.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b95/Glenguitars/MechMate/013.jpg


http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b95/Glenguitars/MechMate/014.jpg

Future home of my MM

[Robert M]

Hey « Bum » !!?
Good luck on this build.
Envy you as your sun sure look to be quite helpful….
These jeeps can really haul…. :p
Amicalement, Robert ;)

[Kobus_Joubert]

You need a bigger radio on the wall once the MM starts cutting :D

[SumBum]

I learned a couple things today.
#1 Working on steel is sloooooow going.
#2 I'm not very good at steel work.
I did manage to make some progress though.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b95/Glenguitars/MechMate/007.jpg

Rails are cut and laid out.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b95/Glenguitars/MechMate/005.jpg


I got the legs cut and drilled and the weld plates cut and drilled.(which are being used as spacers at the moment) I got one set of legs squared up and started to tack them in place when I ran out of Argon.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b95/Glenguitars/MechMate/006.jpg

I'm not a very good welder but I should be able to get this together.
Tomorrow I'll drill the bottoms of the channels and get the legs finished up.

[jehayes]

Bum: Looking good. Keep it up and thanks for the pics.

Joe

[KenC]

Your welding looks fine to my eye. keep up the work.

One tip, welding WILL deform the steel, don't weld more then 40mm or 1.5in in a go, helps taming serious metal deformation.

[SumBum]

Made a little progress today. Got the holes drilled and tapped for cross supports and started welding everything together.

I spent most of the day chasing that little guy away from my work area. He loves tools but is too young to understand the dangers and grabs anything in sight, So I have to flip the breaker for the Welder when I want to use it, then if I'm going to set down the torch, turn the breaker back off. Plug in Grinder to use, then unplug. etc.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b95/Glenguitars/day2003.jpg

[MetalHead]

Alway good to be safe!!

[SumBum]

Spindle arrived today. I was wondering why it took 2 weeks for them to ship this out. After seeing all the tape on the packaging they clearly needed all 2 weeks to get it wrapped up.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b95/Glenguitars/MechMate/spindle001.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b95/Glenguitars/MechMate/spindle002.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b95/Glenguitars/MechMate/spindle003.jpg

I wonder why these holes are drilled on the collet nut? balance?

[SumBum]

My Doctor gave me the OK to go back to work yesterday http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b95/Glenguitars/Applause.gif so the progress on my MM will be slowed to weekend work. But now I'll be able to afford the bigger radio for the wall.http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b95/Glenguitars/Drinky.gif I should be able to finish up my table this weekend depending on rain. Maybe I'll get enough done on it to get my thread moved to construction started ;)

[Surfcnc]

Hi Bum

Just a quick suggestion about your planned placement of the stepper drivers while you are still in the design phase. The slotted face of the driver is also a heat sink. If you were to put that against the plastic backplate of the control box it would limit the heat transfer from the driver. A (slightly) raised alloy plate heat sink similar to the one Gerald uses for the Gecko drives might also work for you if there is enough depth to the control box.

Regards
Ross

[SumBum]

I mounted them that way so 2 fans will blow air along the fins of the heat-sinks. It may not be ideal but Space is limited in this box.

[Surfcnc]

H Bum

That is a good practice as you suggest, please refer to my build thread and you will see that I have used a similar driver configured as you have with two fans blowing along the face of the driver.

The bracket for the fans is made of a simple piece of alloy angle with a few pieces taken out with a hole saw. One issue with my design is that the fans blow the rising hot air back down, but this was a case of what fitted best and stayed clear of the wires.

The slotted alloy base of the driver will retain heat unless it is given a path to escape (the plastic back plate is acting as an insulator). Mounting the drivers on an alloy plate raised say 20mm above the plastic backplate will significantly increase heat dissipation. Your fans can blow between the plate as well as over the drivers to get the best of both cooling scenarios.

Regards
Ross

[SumBum]

I see what your saying. The backplate is steel in my box and raised about a 1/2" from the box, so I thought the dissipation through the steel plate would be adequate when combined with the fans.

[Surfcnc]

Apologies Bum, the photo looked like the plate was white plastic, so the steel backplate you have chosen is of course very suitable. Well I'm off to the optometrist for a new pair of specs !!

Regards
Ross

[SumBum]

I have a fan controller from an old gaming rig that has 4 temp displays on it. I think I may throw it in this computer and put a sensor on each driver, so I can monitor each one individually from the computer.

[SumBum]

Apologies Bum, the photo looked like the plate was white plastic, so the steel backplate you have chosen is of course very suitable. Well I'm off to the optometrist for a new pair of specs !!

Regards
Ross

No, It does look like plastic now that I look back at the photo. You think I should grind the white paint off under the drivers and maybe add some thermal compound?

[Surfcnc]

Great idea on the thermal compound, I have seen others use it on the Gecko's.
So the back plate was painted, there is an explanation for most things, so yes remove it and provide a more direct pathway for the heat.

With respect to the temp sensors, I am a big fan of monitoring esp when you are uncertain of outcomes. That's the thing once you have measured you "know" then you can dismiss the issue as not important or needing further attention.

And - your build is going very well, enjoy the process.

Regards
Ross

[SumBum]

Rain Rain Rain and more Rain. I spent most of the weekend messing around with cad/cam software (trying to learn).
I did however manage to shove everything in my garage to one corner to make some room and get the MM out of the rain. I have some welding and a lot of drilling to do yet but it's getting there.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b95/Glenguitars/MechMate/day5003.jpg

[KenC]

Looking good! Keep em coming!

[lumberjack_jeff]

Good progress Jay!

I have comparable drivers, and they rarely get very warm.

http://www.driver-motor.com/ProductContent.aspx?ID=59

Be careful of your back when you move that beast to its permanent home. :eek:

[liaoh75]

Jeff, if you don't mind me asking, how much were these drivers a piece?

[SumBum]

I ran into a good deal on a air cooled spindle here locally so I am going to sell off the 2.2kw with the vfd that I got on ebay. If anyone is going to be buying one of these (http://cgi.ebay.com/WATER-COOLE-MOTOR-SPINDLE-2-2KW-AND-MATCHING-INVERTER_W0QQitemZ370346263713QQcmdZViewItemQQptZL H_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item563a5b84a1#ht_12082wt_1 165) PM me and well work out a deal on this one.

[cvriv.charles]

Wow your practically a neighbor considering how far away some other memebers are:) I live in Belvidere NJ. About 2 hours from you.

Good job on the build so far:)

[SumBum]

Thanks you the comments guys.
My back is killing me the past week, so I'm taking it easy and just put-sing with small stuff this weekend. I need to take my table apart and flip it over so I can template the rails but it's going to have to wait until I feel a bit stronger. :(