Making Skins #74 - Brisbane Australia

[Surfcnc]

Hi All

A start has been made. Got my Motion King 34HS9801 motors turning under the Mach3 demo using some Leadshine DM856 digital drivers and an Antek Power supply, so it was time to do something a little more safe and substantial in a control box. The forum has proven to be a gold mine of resources and good advice. I have already thanked Gerald personally for sharing his well thought out plans with the internet community but would now like to extend that sentiment into the public internet forum.

The value of a good clear photo by other contributors was great as it made the transition from a concept to understanding so much smoother. The detailed plan numbering system made purchasing so much easier than it might have been. A good example of this was when making my bulk order of bolts for the build, each bolt went back to a plan number and if any changes needed to be made it was just a quick reference back to the plans to see if the change was permissible. The plans quickly became my friend.

Attached are a few pics of the testing and then some of the "general" layout as it will be wired up. Consulted with a electrician on this and we tried to maintain as much separation of the high voltage and lower voltages where ever possible. Eventually the box will switch the machine, the spindle and the dust extractor but for now it will only switch the machine.

Had a chat to a few of the helpful Aussies on the forum already and feel that I'm in some good company. MattyZee ultimately inspired me to have a go at making a machine with his super clear pics and rapid build.

[Robert M]

Hi Ross and welcome aboard !
Wishing you a smooth & self motivating build.
Amicalement, Robert ;)

[Surfcnc]

Hi Robert, it has already been such an interesting time. I'm learning the new skills needed to make the build happen. It has been fun practicing stick and TIG welding, taping holes in steel and getting to know the Mach3 controller software.
Regards
Ross

[MattyZee]

Hey Ross,

Good to see you making progress. Thats a nice size control box and good layout.

Not sure if you're active on the CNCZone forum, but have a look at this thread (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92536). For the last few years there has been a get-together of aussie CNCzone members, usually in Melbourne, but this year Rod (rocket67) is hosting it at his factory in Adelaide. I will be bringing my Mechmate to have on display. People will be coming from all over, Melbourne, Perth, Sydney and i think even a couple from Brisbane. Might be worth checking to see if you can score some cheap flights.

Good luck with the rest of the build and keep the pics coming!

[Surfcnc]

Hi All

Got my camera out and tried to take some half reasonable shots of the various bits I have collected. The stuff has come from all around the globe as well as from my own city, so it is indeed a multinational effort to bring my mechmate project together. Here is a USA machined spindle mount and a Chinese water cooled spindle, they fit together nicely. for reference, the spindle mount was supplied by forum member "dacostad" and the spindle and VFD unit was from Lovehappyshopping on Ebay. The VFD and spindle bounced around in Chinese customs a bit but the vendor made every effort to make sure it arrived.

[Surfcnc]

Strange how when you buy things sometimes they just don't turn out the size you mentally had pictured. The VFD turned out much smaller than I expected but this is a good thing as it can be tucked away so much easier somewhere in the shed once it is in use. I have included a can of ginger beer as a reference. Skippy note how I have cunning avoided using an empty wine bottle as my reference, haha.

[Surfcnc]

Here are some pics of the stepper motors for my build - MotionKing 34HS9801's.
These were purchased from MotionKing in China direct, here is the link http://motionking.com/Products/Hybrid_Stepper_Motors/34HS_Stepper_Motor_86mm_1.8degree.htm.

V Wheels and bushes were supplied by Rick at Superior Bearings in the USA. Locally these were worth serious money so I followed many other forum members leads to Rick as a reliable well priced source of components.

[Jayson]

Hi Ross,

Parts look good so far. I'll watch with interest.
Only one thing to note at the moment is make sure you program the VFD before testing it with the spindle. I have the settings that I used in my thread and I'm sure others have theirs listed also. The main setting that usually needs to be changed is PD004 Base Frequency set it to 400.0 not 50.

If you already knew all this please disregard my post and I'll return to the shadows.

Regards,

Jayson.

[Surfcnc]

I live in Brisbane Australia, so armed with Geralds dxf files, my own take off of the numbers of parts, their thickness and bends on an excel sheet and photos from the forum, it was off to the laser cutters to try to get a quote. Easier said than done, it seems. Some of the more established businesses were just not able to get off the ground on this request, but persistence pays off and "Lasercentral" got the job done. Very impressed by the operation they run, it is totally professional and even the little guy gets a look in it seems - thanks. One tiny crack on a bend on the spider plate and the spider itself is not perfectly flat is all that appears to require some small correction in the future (a this point anyhow). They immediately picked up that the smaller of the tabs would not bend well on the spider plate and called me with the suggestion it be lengthened to 18 mm. I said no, but in retrospect the longer tab could have been bent and then cut off quite easily later, a suggestion for future builders anyway.

The bolts and washers were an exercise in plan reading that took a fair bit longer than I expected. Eventually I made a list of all fixings by drawing number and when the inevitable call from the bolt supplier came regarding substitutions. I looked really professional being able to quickly refer back to the drawing and make the call on the change. The bolt guy just could not hold back when I arrived to pick up the order and blurted out "What on earth are you building?" (cleaned up a little for the more sensitive souls in the forum!!). My table base is similar in general approach to the "buibui" build but I am never going to pull off such a pretty welding or fabrication job. I am telling myself I have set the benchmark unreasonably high and will defer to lesser quality as and when I need to. The inevitable requests for a Bill of Materials for the mechmate bolts etc will fall on deaf ears I'm afraid as the plan reading is really the way to go to get a good understanding of the build AND my table is not exactly to Gerald's plans so the hard way is probably the best way on this score.

Some steel is one the way from a local supplier. It must be heavy as I ordered it before Christmas and it is well after New Year now and no sign of it yet !

That's all for now.

Ross

[Surfcnc]

Jayson - all comments and information are gratefully accepted. It will be some some time until the power gets to that component but rest assured your settings will be well read before any testing commences.
Thanks Ross

[AuS MaDDoG]

Hi Ross,

Making some great progress!! we will all need to catch up and have a beer or two one day!!

Good Luck with the build.

Cheers
Tony.

[Claudiu]

Good luck with your build.
The new parts look great. Now just make a beast out of them...:)

[Surfcnc]

Cheers Tony and Claus.

[Surfcnc]

Given that nothing is level where the machine will be placed some adjustable feet were always in the design. Found some quite reasonable feet at http://fallshaw.com.au here in Australia. They have a 60mm diameter foot with a grip pad, a 12 mm shaft, a swiveling ball joint and will take 800 kg load each.

[Surfcnc]

Lesson learnt for this exercise, keep trying and keep buying.

Started out with a set of 3 cheap countersinks with four cutting faces each as a test, the packet said suitable for wood and mild steel. Maybe, but not the steel I had!
My bin is now coincidently heavier by exactly the same weight as my test countersink.

Second attempt was a 12.5 mm Frost one flute counter sink. It cut like butter but was not wide enough to allow the bolt to sit flush. Took a few measurements of the bolt head and it was 16mm wide by 5mm deep, so my 12.5 mm cutter was never going to do the job, but proved nicely that the one flute steel cutter was the go.

Next step was to get totally robbed (Joke) buying a 28mm one flute Sutton countersink. There was an intermediate 20mm size but it worked out at nearly the same price, so proceeded with the bigger is better strategy. The guys down at Trade Tools Direct (our local tool gurus) had a good laugh with me as I cringed handing over the 94 AUD for the cutter. Pleased to report the expensive countersink worked perfectly and produced a result that was spot on. The bolt heads sat perfectly flush and the original hole was still the same nice tight fit. The last photo shows me test fitting a bolt, just a touch more was needed to finish up flush.

The one flute counter sink moved the plates a lot when cutting, so two clamps were required to stay on center. The technique that gave the best result was dropping the counter sink into the hole, clamping one side then the other while the countersink remained in the hole with some pressure to ensure it was centrally located.

[AuS MaDDoG]

Very nice!!!!

You might be able to hire that $94 countersink bit out to Paul and I and recoupe some back!! haha!!

Looks like Paul and I are going to have to get a move on, your moving ahead at blinding speed:D

Cheers
Tony.

[Sherman McCoy]

Well done. The first countersink I used produce an embarassing amount of chatter marks. I subsequently bought a 4 flute 1/4" bit that seemed to work better, but still not as nice as yours.

[Gerald D]

A lot of people just use a bigger drill bit as a countersink.

[Surfcnc]

Thanks Gerald - I got hung up on the angle of the cutter fitting the head of the countersunk bolt exactly and was not game to deviate. I have no experience with metal working, so any suggestions are always welcome.
Regards
Ross

[Gerald D]

A new drill will cut about 120 degrees instead of 90 degrees. DIY guys who hand-sharpen drills, tend to grind them nearer to 90 degrees. An exact match of the angles does not make the joint any stronger. . . . . in our case we are only lightly tightening the screws against plastic washers.

Those wood/steel cutters you first tried . . . . . did you lubricate them? With lubrication, they will last many times better in steel.

Sometimes the laser leaves a hard crust in the hole. It often helps to enlarge the lasered hole with a standard drill and then do the countersink.

Maybe we need a thread just on countersinking? :)

[Surfcnc]

Yes it was lubricated with a drilling/tapping lubricant, it appears to be just a wood tool passed off as a ferrous metal bit. I do some woodwork from time to time so the other countersinks are now in my kit for that type of thing.

[Surfcnc]

Steel arrived today, a single table leg was short by about 15mm. Back tomorrow for a replacement and then I have the bulk of the steel excepting a few bits of flat that I will get locally. Everything else was either pretty much spot on or a little long and will be OK once trimmed. The 200mm main X beams are 80 kg each, not light !

Teflon washers have eluded me, so I got to cutting some plastic ones of my own. A mechmate inspired cutting mat gave up it's cushy job in the kitchen for the cause. It was 1mm thick and only had one smooth face so two washers are required to make the 2mm specification and to present a smooth face to each of the working surfaces. The plastic will do but is a little brittle, so shout out any Aussies if you can point me to a source of 20mm and 40 mm x2 mm PTFE washers.

[jehayes]

Ross: Your progress is phenomenal! Keep the photos coming to inspire us. Joe

[Surfcnc]

Hi Joe - Thanks. Your build thread is a fine example of where I would like to be. Really liked the tapping set up for the x rails you used.
Regards Ross

[Claudiu]

Hi Ross, congrats for your progress,
For the teflon washers I cut out mine from an indoor paint bucket. They work great and do their job. Don`t spend too much time and money looking for teflon if its not available.

[Gerald D]

Agree, the material can be any "slippery feeling" plastic and it can be thinner than 2mm.

[Surfcnc]

Thanks for the clarification Claudio and Gerald - I have made quite a few washers from the plastic mat but still need to do some 20mm ones. An Aussie has come up with a source for "Teflon" sheet, so I'm now flush with options.

A bolt together table design appeals to me, certainly lots more work but I like the idea of breaking the machine down into more manageable units for transport or long term storage. Time to drill some holes and test how the drill press cuts through metal far thicker than I have ever attempted to machine.

Sharpened a 5mm bit for the pilot and it just sailed through, applying cutting oil liberally all the while the bit spun in the work. Then got out my very blunt, previously abused 12mm bit and found it was just not going to happen without a big sharpen. Got it sharp but not overly symmetrical so it seemed to cut on one face only. Worked nicely none the less and took very little time to move thorough the steel.

Seemed to using lots of cutting oil, so I attempted to make some of my own. Ingredients were 88 ml of 3 in 1 oil (one can), 100 ml of full synthetic motor oil and 800 ml of kerosene. It looks and smells like a product I bought at 15 AUD for 250ml, so here is hoping it works. The 10% oil to 90% kerosene mix Gerald gave the details for on the forum gave me reasonable confidence the the home-brew mix was on the right track, I will report back on that one in time. In the shop bought product I could definitely detect the blue colour of the kerosene we have here in Australia, the smell of citronella and a slight surface foaming when shaken. My "product" replicates all these characteristics.

Here are some photos of drilling and marking the plates for the table legs. Lots more to go.

[Besser]

Just back from Holidays and am impressed to see your progress! I better get stuck in to mine.

For the washers I also used cutting board., ALDI did/do cutting boards... they are thicker but not MM Blue.

[Surfcnc]

Besser, perfect weather for a holiday, shame it had to end. Hope you enjoy your time on your mechmate project as much as I am.

Apologies to Claus for my incorrect spelling of your user name.

Ross

[Surfcnc]

Worked away on attaching some more plates to the table legs. Finished up the eight plates on the outside of the PFC and have four of the plates that sit inside the channel attached.

The inside plates were marked and drilled from the top (or outside of the C section) so I could work off nice square edges for the measurements. Once drilled they were then transfered to their spot inside the C section. I used a scribing pencil to mark the position of plates on the steel - worked like a beauty leaving a nice visible line to work off.

[Besser]

Legs good enough for the beach! The spray tan on the inside is a little orange.

Those Fluro's in the back of pic, you going to mount them to the MM?

[Surfcnc]

Hi Besser, very keen eye you have there.

I make surfboards as a hobby and the fluros provide side light for shaping and throw plenty of light on the subject when glassing boards.

The type of lighting I will use is on the mechmate will be High Power LED's as they are so small and robust. Still a little expensive for the amount of light you get but the technology is rapidly improving. Attached is a photo of a task light in my shed made from 5 x 3 watt HPLED's. When it comes time to install some lights the 5 watt and 10 watt HPLED's should be more reasonably priced and will fit perfectly in the moving monocoque car providing intense white task lighting around the cutting tool.

[KenC]

Another well lit dance floor?

[Surfcnc]

Ken - I gave up dancing when I quit drinking, or was that, I gave up drinking when I quit dancing. Well lit none the less Ken.

[Besser]

I have been struggling with the lighting issue, do you light just the cutting tool or the whole work table?

With a dust foot on a tool light is useless.

my current config is for a IR USB camera inside the dust foot and strip led along the underside of the gantry.

Look forward to seeing your config.

[Claudiu]

Hey Ken, I heard that...:D:D:D Another well lit dance floor?

[sailfl]

Ross,

Can you show some pictures of the lights you are talking about? I would like to add some kind of lighting. I played around with LEDs but I didn't get around to adding any thing as of yet. It would be great to see what some one else has come up with.

Thanks

[Surfcnc]

Hi Nils

The photo attached is of a High Power LED (HPLED) and an LED driver that is used to limit the current running to the LED. The driver can be located well away from the LED so only room for the star/s itself needs to be found. The part that makes the light is the yellow dome in the center. These LED's produce lots of light per watt of power but are still not 100 percent efficient so produce some waste heat. The light can be focused with a lens called a collimator.

HPLED's are usually heat sinked to alloy with some thermal epoxy glue. I make mine from computer CPU ceramic thermal paste and two part epoxy. The light in the previous post has five LED's literally stuck to the alloy plate and wired up to a 12 volt battery though some LED drivers. The LED's actually produce a specific wavelength of light some are white light but others are blue, green or red wavelengths. New multichip LED's actually mix light to a specific color, so whatever you do don't let any wanna be decorators read this and have you pay to wash a wall with a specific color of light !!!

It seems inevitable that these LEDs will replace existing lighting as the incandescent is nearly gone here in Australia, fluoros contain mercury and are currently looking like a bad boy in the disposal stakes because of that heavy metal (there I go again about heavy metals).

I am nowhere near making a dust foot but the design I liked the best was the bush bristle types sucking from the back and most importantly open at the front so you can see what is going on. Even the big dust extractors hate restriction so it made sense to me to have a path from the clear air to the extractor intake. I was hoping to peak in the front to see what was going on too!

Finished fixing the last of my 16 plates to the table legs, better find something else to drill.

[Robert M]

Great Idea….. Thanks for sharing & showing the « light » on this :D

[AuS MaDDoG]

Hi Ross,

Looking forward to catching up with you on Saturday, I'm sure we will have plenty of MechMate discussions going on!!

Great work so far Ross keep them photos and updates coming!!

Cheers
Tony.

[Surfcnc]

Same here Tony, an exchange of ideas... I'll have have the plans at the ready.

[Surfcnc]

Lots more holes made in the Y cross bearers. My technique to get all the holes lining up nicely was to use a drilling template made out of 20 x 3 mm flat steel clamped to the cross bearer - worked very nicely.

The size of my Y axis is 1300mm but just in case only a 1200mm support board was available (or much more reasonably priced), I made two sets of holes on the outside edge for both support board sizes. Although none of the photos show it, the holes are also drilled on the underside of the cross bearer's flange so the support board can be easily fitted from underneath. Thanks to the originator of that idea, it was on the forum somewhere but not in the plans.

The x beam holes for the bolt together design are still to be done.

Cutting fluid formula at post #27 works really well, the drills cut nicely and stay sharp.

[Surfcnc]

Over the last day or so I have completed the CAD drawing for my bolt together lower table. A little bit of juggling was required to get the Y cross bearers nicely spaced given that my bolt together design puts a plate up between the bearers. Now have the exact hole spacings and am proceeding to drill the bottoms of my X rails to take my bolt on Y bearers and the bolt on leg plates.

I used a piece of 25 x 6mm flat as a template, center punched the exact positions then drilled some 4mm pilot holes to make sure everything lined up as best it could. After drilling one 12mm hole by hand, thought it was a bit slow, so up it went on my trusty painters trestles and plank.

Rather than move the beam to be machined - the drill press was moved along underneath the beam - worked nicely.

[Robert M]

I’m no metal knowledge guy, but would like to learn more on your main beams ?
How come there not taped as most other C-channels ?
What are those ?
Thanks, Robert ;)

[Surfcnc]

Hi Robert

They could well be tapped as you suggest. My strategy is to use a high tensile bolt fully tightened in a slightly oversized hole to allow for adjustment to get the base perfectly square. I am quite sure that the clamping force of the 16 12mm HT bolts will lock the beams into position and in the end it is a quicker method than tapping all the holes (for me a least).

[Surfcnc]

To clarify - these are the bottoms of the X Beams Robert.

[Gerald D]

How come there not taped as most other C-channels ?

I think he meant "tapered" . . . . .

[Surfcnc]

Gerald thanks.

We are lucky to have access to this type of channel here in Australia. We can also get the tapered channel you used for your build. Your work around for the tapper was very well done - you are more than "just" a woodworker I say.

[jehayes]

How come there not tap(er)ed as most other C-channels ?
What are those ?
Thanks, Robert ;)

I believe that kind of untapered structural steel is called "Ship Channel" around here. It costs about twice as much as the normal tapered stock.

Joe

[AuS MaDDoG]

Called PFC here in Aus = Parallel Flange Channel :)

Cheers
Tony.

[Surfcnc]

Cut one of my Y cross bearers short and needed to pick up another length during the week. They seemed to routinely stock both the Tapered Flange Channel TFC and Parallel Flange Channel PFC as Tony has correctly named.

Obviously the PFC channel we are using makes the job easier. Don't know about the price difference of the two products but twice the price for PFC seems quite unreasonable.

Tony - your cold cut saw appears to be not only a good saw, it's an ultra saw.
You will be flat out keeping up with it. Nothing wrong with collecting more tools, you are in good company in this forum I'd bet.

Ross

[Surfcnc]

The big X beams have enough holes in the bottom now for all the Y cross bearers to be bolted on. A few extra holes for the attachment plate for the table base as well.
8334

Got the welder out and have started making the ladder frame sections for my table base. Tried various methods to get it square, not sure I have found a perfect solution but it generally works ok. Welded a little too aggressively and got one bar to twist a little so will cut it open again, hammer, clamp and re-weld it the way it should be.
8335
8337

Here are two of the four ladder sections I will need for my table.
8336

The heat and humidity here in Queensland have been quite repressive over the past week. I was wet through after just minutes working as it was around 47 degrees C in the garage where I was welding. When it gets this hot in Queensland it can only mean one thing - it's cyclone season and right on cue Tropical Cyclone Olga (A Hurricane in the Northern Hemisphere) is on the way. The pulse of swell is due to hit the east coast on Sunday afternoon, so if I go quiet for a while, no one will need to guess where I have gone !!
8338

[KenC]

More pic!!
Sure is hot in your garage, I working in 31C indoor, but outdoor temp is 35C when its not raining,...

[AuS MaDDoG]

Love your work Ross!!

Soldiering on very well considering the heat of late, storms the last couple of days too and a King on King tide expected this weekend. How are the magnetic corners working for you? I also have a few of them for when I start our table builds, I thought they might be a handy asset. Looks like I might need a few of those longer sash clamps too!!
Good to see it all coming together, and at a reasonable pace, keep the pics coming Ross.

Cheers
Tony.

[Surfcnc]

Hi Tony

The magnetic corners head you in the general direction quite well and make up for a little variation in the cuts of the steel. The sash clamps are perfect if you are working with a precision cut and do a no compromise lock up of the bars. Hot - you bet !!

[Sergio-k]

Hi Ross

Nice work !!

Seeing your spindle and your spindle mount, which by the way is the same
that i got too, i have to inform you that the mount does not fit in the gauge plate cause it hits the rollers and you have to possibly trim the back plate or add some washers in the back.

Sergio

[Surfcnc]

Thank you for the warning Sergio. I have measured the bracket width at 124 - 125mm so it is indeed too wide without modification. The Z plate is no more than 100mm wide and each V roller will project at least another 4mm inwards on each side. Realistically we are looking to reduce the backplate of the spindle mount width to 90mm to get clearance.

If you look at the back of the mount, the horizontal distance between the 2 sets of screws that hold it together is around 90mm.

See my proposed fix below, it should cut easily in a miter saw. In its disassembled state it is just two straight cuts on the backplate and a couple of little miters on the top and bottom plates. Round off the sharp bits and it should look fine. Before making any modifications I would like to see how it fouls with the V rollers. It might not even need the miter cuts if the v rollers clear the top and bottom plates.

8339

Regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

Slowly doing some more welding - even doing some unwelding !? then rewelding as my clamping techniques improve.

Built up a new controller PC out of new but inexpensive parts last week.

I have used the concept of virtualisation to get a really good result this time.

The "Host" machine runs only the Mach3 machine controller software and one Virtual Network Computing (VNC) application.
The "Guest" Machine runs all my design applications, CAM applications, AV, Email etc, etc.

The end result is a single machine that can run anything and everything when needed or instantly drop back to a stripped down controller by simply turning off the "Guest" machine.

An AMD 2.9Gig Phenom dual core CPU and 4 Gig of RAM allows for 2 gig of RAM for each the Host and Guest Machines and gives perfect realtime performance of the Guest even when using applications that require 3D hardware accelerated graphics. Both machines are visible on a network as separate machines and can both be remotely monitored and operated from any where on the LAN.

The virtualisation allowed me to get a strong and easily managed delineation between the controller and design functions of the machine. It also allows for the quick transfer of the guest machine (the design environment) to any other machine regardless of its hardware configuration.

Choose your own virtualisation application and the host/guest operating systems depending on your own tastes, it is just the system architecture that I wanted to give the forum users a chance to consider.

The Mach3 driver test easily pulsed to 100k. My earlier experiments with an Intel Atom 330 Dual core CPU and Intel motherboard failed to reliably pulse past 16.5 k so the new hardware is a keeper.

[KenC]

I'm not computer savy, I learn by picked up bits & pieces here & there & what I know is normally outdated...:p but I just couldn't resist to learn more by asking stupid questions.

AKAIK Mech3/EMC2 don't like working in dual core machine, don't know why though. What is your take?

Another stupid question, what is the reason for a 100k pulse? I need to know if I have to ditch my Atom mobo too...

[Surfcnc]

It sounded big doing all those different things but really it's only a little guy.

The controller PC also uses a Logitech wireless rumblepad to jog and a wireless laptop mouse to cut down on cords. Just using USB and network access for file transfers, so left out the CD/DVD as thats just more thing to get full of dust and stop working.

8492

regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

Hi Ken

No stupid questions exist (the first time anyway). I do not believe there is any issue running mach on dual and quad core CPU's, many people on the Mach support forum are currently successfully doing so at the moment. I believe this is to do with a wider problem of people not understanding the technology.

The operating system is the traffic cop that controls the cores at the lowest level. A patched up SP2 or SP3 windows XP install is most certainly multicore enabled. The software then sits above this and the software itself may or may not be multi core aware and able to multithread, as us nerds call it !!. The worst case scenario is that one core may lay idle.

What is important is the core clock speed to obtain a system that can step quickly. When choosing a CPU for a machine controller it is best to select the highest clock speed per core rather than a greater number of cores and a lesser clock speed. As a practical example a dual core 3 gig per core CPU can theoretically pulse faster than a 2.4 gig quad core CPU and probably cost less. In some applications core clock speed is everything, Mach and EMC are just these applications.

The pulse speed of your set up can be tested using the trial of the Mach3 software. Install as suggested and then in the Mach3 install directory run the drivertest.exe, it will let you know how fast your controller can pulse. It will also indicate how much variation between pulses in micro seconds (10 -6s) as the test runs. Running mach itself the diagnostics will also indicate the pulse rate and show the pulse rate changing in real time. The steadier the better but due to the way the operating system itself services it own requests some small change is inevitable.

The higher pulsing rates that Mach offers are used when the stepper drivers (Gecko Drives are often used in the Mechmate) are set to finer resolutions of microstepping. The machine can be ran at the same pulsing frequency but at the cost of speed. By pulsing at at higher rate the machines cutting speed and rapid rate will once again return. There are practical limits to both the speed and pulse rate that vary from machine to machine. Some of these elements could be the memory bus speed of the host PC or the control wiring's resistance to electrical interference.

regards
Ross

[Besser]

Like the rumble pad

There is concern the "noise" created by routers, drives, PWR supplies and VFD's in combination cause interference for wireless devices and could create errant inputs. Last thing you want is jogging mid cut sequence!
I'll be watching with interest!

[Surfcnc]

Hi Besser

I am using a solid metal control box that contains both the power supply and the stepper drivers. A grounded solid metal box is the most effective Faraday cage there is. It was on this basis and the reports that others have also used this means of control successfully that I decided to try it

My "portable electrocution kit" on my first post to the thread also appeared to work OK with the pad and it provided no RF shielding from the PSU, two drivers and two steppers. No router was in the mix but it was successful enough to proceed with the experiment to full scale.

Could I ask you about your camera monitoring. I have had great issues with long cable runs on USB web cams and when they say 5M max on the USB standard they mean it. I have found that cameras such as the Logitech Pro 9000 are very sensitive to the cable quality and cable length. Could you let me know what model IR cam you are using, how it connects back to the controller machine and the cable length you are able to run. If you have a screen capture or video of the web cam output I would greatly appreciate the chance to "see what you are seeing".

The reason I ask is that is that my controller can be remotely monitored and a web cam would be very easy and cheap to add, so you got my interest !!

kind regards
Ross

[Greolt]

For what it is worth, I have been running my 4 axis router from a Foxconn 45CSX MoBo with on board 330 Atom CPU, 2gigs ram at 35khz via LPT, for some time now, with no problems.

Greg

[Surfcnc]

Hi Greg

Can you please run the driver test in mach, record your score and get back to us with the pulse rate, as that was the figure I was referring with respect to the Atom 330 Intel board. That way we can compare apples with apples. My test was also conducted with the max 2 gig Ram these boards allow.

cheers
Ross

[Surfcnc]

Ken

Could you also run the test and report back. Your machine will help give a larger sample of performance figures for the Atom 330's even if the motherboards they are on may not be the same.

Don't get me wrong here fellas, there is a lot to like about these little form factor boards (after all I did buy one). It is a very simple experiment to do, so over to you now so we can find out what is the typical pulsing rate.

Thanks Ross

[Surfcnc]

Clamped up some PFC over the square section and it held everything really straight while it was welded. Besides the fairly brutish over welding, it is straight and has great penetration of the weld. The last one I did was the best - a familiar story played out as any one learns a new skill.
8501

[Greolt]

Ross

Pulse speed that the driver settles on will vary with which driver version you are using. Art has been playing around with the driver and it's ability to settle at close to the called for rate, in the last couple of revisions.

The pulse speed so long as it is near the setting is not important. What is is important is how stable it is.

The Atom 330 that I am using is rock solid. As I said I am running 35khz kernel speed.

Where the little Mini ITX all in one MoBO shows it's limits is with the on-board graphics. When running very large 3D files with around a million very small segment moves, then I turn off the toolpath view. All other cutting I leave it on.

Greg

[KenC]

Ken

Could you also run the test and report back. Your machine will help give a larger sample of performance figures for the Atom 330's even if the motherboards they are on may not be the same.

Don't get me wrong here fellas, there is a lot to like about these little form factor boards (after all I did buy one). It is a very simple experiment to do, so over to you now so we can find out what is the typical pulsing rate.

Thanks Ross

Ross, I wouldn't mind running the test but I'm not apple, but orange, Ubuntu OS & EMC2... My latency result is 16500us (worst result over at least 5 test over 15min ~90min),

Greg, I recon the atom is intentionally design to do poorly in the graphics department... imagine the impact it will do to the computer industry if everyone is running multimedia games, media center... etc on the Atom... the industry will collapse :)

[KenC]

Clamped up some PFC over the square section and it held everything really straight while it was welded. Besides the fairly brutish over welding, it is straight and has great penetration of the weld. The last one I did was the best - a familiar story played out as any one learns a new skill.
8501

Ross, you don't have to clamp them that way. What I will do is to fit the frame up nice & square, spot the corners of the tube ends, i.e. 4 spots per joint, spot weld on one side 1st then flip over for the other cpots.

then weld by joining spot, joint 2 spot welds on one corner, then weld on the diagonal joint... do the zig zag sequence.

I never bother to fight thermal expension, just go along with what they like & you will end up with a really nice job.

Hope this helps

[Surfcnc]

"Latency" of 16500 milliseconds not sure what this is in your Linux EMC environment but my Atom 330 gave 16500 pulses per second on the driver test in Mach and refused to shift above that. I think you might have confirmed what I said all along.

Ken - Nvidia have produced a new chipset for the Atom 330 called the Ion. It is everything you explained a multimedia beastie that will give the little Atom enough help to do full HD. there goes the industry, haha.

[Surfcnc]

Thanks Ken - I did do the spot and diagonal thing but my skills with welding are no where near as good as my IT skills. I am also welding on the uneven garage floor not ideal at all.
Ross

[KenC]

I weld under the same condition as your & my welding skill is worst then my english...:D

Don't weld too much in on spot, I keep my welds around 1.5in or about 4cm each time & move to weld other spot that are at least 2 feet away or the furthers from it... The idea is to warm up the whole steel assembly as evenly as possible & don't quence in water to cool... rest in between helps too, give time for the steel to warm/cold more evenly & good for the weldinng machine tooe...

[KenC]

Not really, Ion is another product to "upgrade" the Atom... so more product for sale, industry saved...

[MetalHead]

I find that since I don't weld every day, I like to take a piece of scrap and run beads on it to setup the welder (Who knows what I was doing with it last time) and get my hands back into the groove.

Also I see your welding on primered surface. Hit those joints with a rough wire brush on your angle grinder and clean the steel where it has no contaminants. Also do this where the ground is attached.

http://i14.ebayimg.com/04/i/001/5f/5a/15f7_1_sbol.JPG

You will be amazed at how clean surface and good grounds help your weld.

Also make sure your rods are for mild steel. Also if your rods are some just lying about the shop - go buy new ones.

http://articles.directorym.com/How_to_Arc_Weld_Stanton_CA-r1000731-Stanton_CA.html

Below came from the site above.

◦Electrodes. There are many specialized welding electrodes, used for specific alloys and types of metals, such as cast or malleable iron, stainless or chromolly steel, aluminum, and tempered or high carbon steels. A typical electrode consists of the wire rod in the center covered with a special coating (flux)which burns as the arc is maintained, consuming oxygen and producing carbon dioxide in the weld area to prevent the base metal from oxidizing or burning away in the arc flame during the welding process. Here are some common electrodes and their uses:
■E6011 electrodes are a mild steel electrode with a cellulose fiber coating. The first two numbers in the electrode identification is the tensile strength, measured in pounds per square inch times 1,000. Here, the yield of the electrode would be 60,000 PSI.
■E6010 electrodes are a reverse polarity electrode, commonly used for welding steam and water pipes, and are particularly useful for overhead welding, since the metal holds its position while in a liquid state, being drawn into the molten weld pool by the flow of the direct current from the electrode to the workpiece.
■Other specific purpose E60XX electrodes are available, but since E6011s are considered a standard, general purpose rod, and E6010s are considered the standard for reverse polarity DC welding, they will not be covered in detail in this article.
■E7018 electrodes are low hydrogenflux coated steel rods, with a high yield tensile strength of 70,000 PSI. These are often used in assembling structural steel used in the construction industry, and in other applications where a strong filler material and higher strength weld is required. Note that, although these rods provide greater strength, they are less forgiving in respect to achieving a clean, high-grade weld at incorrect amperages and with dirty (rusted, painted, or galvanized) steels. These electrodes are called low hydrogen due to every attempt to lower the hydrogen content. These electrodes must be stored in an oven with a temperature between 250ºF and 300ºF. This temperature is above the water boiling point of 212ºF at sea level. This temperature keeps the moisture (dew)(H2O) in the air from collecting in the flux.

You can also reverse the polarity on your welder. Make sure it is setup for your welding.

[MetalHead]

Oh yeah - Your build is looking awesome !!!

[Surfcnc]

Thanks all good advice, I was moving the earth closer to where I was welding but did not think to take the paint off on the earth. That's a keeper AND I will remove the paint. I asked an old hand about it and he just grinned when I asked about paint and cutting oil deposits - oh well looks like your my new weld master.

Regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

Greg we are talking around on subject not on the subject. I have asked about the driver test result and that is what the original post and my comments were about. If you are running Mach it would only take a few minutes to run the test and it is already loaded in the root directoy of the Mach install (drivertest.exe).

Last go on this one as the rest of the posts are a nice conversation about the Atom but not a test I'm afraid. Maybe we just think a little differently but I am trying to be as clear as possible on this one.

[Greolt]

Ross

I can tell you that the Atom 330 settles at 35005 when on 35khz kernel speed.

However this tells me nothing much at all, and will vary according to what driver is being used. That is with version 517.

The driver tests main purpose is to test stability and variation of the time in interupt. This is what is important to Mach's ability to produce clean and consistent pulsing.

Greg

[Surfcnc]

Hi Greg and Ken

I have built up an Atom 330 D945GCLF2 controller with a clean install of XP SP2, the latest Mach3 release and ran the drivertest.exe again.

This latest build pulses right through all the kernel speeds to 100k reliably making my previous test a dud and my statement that the Atom could only pulse to 16500 pulses per second, quite wrong. The original test machine was running a variant of Windows Server 2003 at the time, I believe this was the source of my error.

The pulses per second on the driver test are stable. The variation in the frequency it reports against the mach kernel frequency are just an artifact of using the windows clock to measure the pulses. It also very reliably repeated the reported frequencies in subsequent tests. Where we skidded off the rails was that I just could not tell if Greg was actually running the test or getting the pulse frequency from somewhere else.

So the Atom 330 has been unfairly accused, Greg takes the high ground and the test machine is now a nice little compact box that hums away on only 40 watts of power. Before anyone rushes out and buys an Atom 330 motherboard on the strength of the test, remember that the Nvidia Ion graphics chip is now also available in combination with this processor and it will address the slow video response that Greg reported on large 3D files and it should be greatly improved.

Clarity through confusion is a path but probably not the preferred path !!!

Humbly Ross

[KenC]

AFAIK, the ION mobo is priced at about US300, at this price, IMHO, defeats my cost effective criteria. I'll still op for the D945GCLF (the old atom single core mobo ~USD75 w/o ram). Low cost, small form factor, very low power demand (4W, but if you install an hard disk, the HDD will draw a lot more power then this typically 20~30W) & the graphic is already more then enough as a dedicated machine to run MM.

Ross, take the frame welding as learning opportunity, have a better feel of how thermal distortion works , this will go a long way when you put up your gantry & Y-car.

[Surfcnc]

Hi Ken

Life and the choices within it can be complex and rarely straightforward. One tip I can give you is, if you can develop a appreciation for brownish paint you can mix together other peoples leftovers for nothing. The real question of course is, do you actually like brown paint? I'm not seeing a lot of brownish Mechmates so I'm thinking to a degree everyone has indulged themselves in some vanity spending over and above pure function.

Regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

Welded up some more of the table base and now have two for my efforts.
Metal Head Mike - see the paint missing on the new welds. The removal of the primer paint was done by hand with a stainless wire bush but it worked OK.

8524
8525

Regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

The next step of the base was to test fit the ladder sections together. I definitely was concerned about the accuracy of the build, especially watching that metal move around under some heat.

Anyway bolted it up rough and the diagonal came in at less than 1mm out of square - YES !!

[Surfcnc]

Despite getting the table square on the diagonal, other factors needed to be considered. In order to eliminate any twist across the base, the X beams were placed on the garage floor. Each was leveled then further leveled relative to each other. This created a nice flat plane that I could do the final welding of the table base upon. The datum I am using is the top of the table base, so it is being welded upside down to achieve this.

I am so looking forward to having a big, relatively flat work surface to work on. As you might have seen in some of the other photos someone has put stuff all over the the table saw !!

Ross

[MetalHead]

You can't beat that for level and plumb.

That wire hand brush is fine. I keep one by my machines and use it all the time.

You should go ahead and weld you up some work benches now since the MM will be busy cutting up wood in the future :)

[riesvantwisk]

Question about the angle gauge,
given the size of them... aren't they small to measure accurate, spirit levels are much larger? I have no experience in this area.. just wondering.

Ries

[Surfcnc]

Hi Ries

Yes the narrow base means that they are only highly accurate on a machined surface. I use it for setting saw blades and the drill press table and those applications it are very accurate, equal if not superior to an engineers square I use. You can actually see the deflection in say a drop saw as the weight of your hand goes onto the handle to make the cut and allow for it.

The device is just great for a quick run around to check things out. If you look back in my posts you will see me leveling the X beams and in that shot I am using a 1200mm level on a alloy section to get them right. So this is exactly what you are getting at, the gauge was used as a check in this circumstance. I find myself using the little Wixi gauge all the time and would be most unhappy if it ever got broken.

Hey I liked your T slot base on the table. I have been looking at how I might doing something the same and along comes your photo. Did you use a T slot cutter with the boards in place or some other technique? Also congratulations on your machine, a great effort.

Regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

Here is the link to the product if you would like to investigate further.
http://www.wixey.com/anglegauge/index.html

Ross

[Surfcnc]

Finished welding up the table base but no pics at least until I have had some more time to "groom" my distinctive style of welds a little !

Also put on the four foot plates for the adjustable feet on the 100x50 PFC legs. They turned out very well and at some later stage I will sit these feet in a vibration absorbing surround.

Ross

[KenC]

Nice foot, do remember to remove them before you turn the table over.

[Surfcnc]

I never cease to surprise myself what I can forget. Searched for 30 mins today for my car keys as a recent example.

Working by myself, it is a case of nutting out all the moves. It takes a lot more work but I typically disassemble the base to move it even at this early stage.

Regards
Ross

[riesvantwisk]

Ross,

thanks for the info on the gauge, I have seen them here aswell for sale and I might get my hands on one of these one day. Anything I should look out for while buying?

Hey I liked your T slot base on the table. I have been looking at how I might doing something the same and along comes your photo. Did you use a T slot cutter with the boards in place or some other technique?

I will tell you my little secret :)
First what I did was surfacing the base board, needed to be careful because I had some screws in there so I used cheap bit to do the work (bit is still alive). I only was off 1mm on the right so it wasn't a biggy.
Second I did lay my spoilboard on my base board and wrote G-Code to cut the 20mm channels with a 6mm endmil, they are 8x20mm.
Then I would put glue on my spoilboard and glued it on my base board and let that set overnight. Next day we simply made the 6mm top channel so now I have a T-Slot :)

If you want I can send the g-code to make the 8x20 channels, I forgot to save the top channel, but that is just a single line :)

Ries

[Surfcnc]

Hi Ries

I looked very closely for marks to discover your technique. What can I say other than you now have a CNC machine so your solution involves a CNC machine, haha. An elegant solution and thanks for letting me (and the rest of the web) in on your secret.

The only caution about the little angle gauge is don't press the buttons accidentally while putting it away into it little pouch that it comes in. I have used up three batteries but they only cost about $2 each. By now I'm sure that you see it shares the precision innards of a vernier and boy don't those magnets cling on.

Cheers
Ross

[KenC]

Working by myself, it is a case of nutting out all the moves. It takes a lot more work .....
Regards
Ross

The experience (frustration) is mutual ;)
At times, moving a simple object seems like a mega project... :mad:
BUT the reward is even greater when all went well.

[Surfcnc]

I mixed up my ladder panels a bit and had to re-establish their correct orientation - the lesson here is you just can't mark things well enough.

Although not much looks like it has been done, the x beams were rolled over in readiness for the final fit up and squared / leveled up again. I re-assembled the ladder frame and then checked my CAD drawings to see if it was going to land on the attachment plates. Placed the frame on the X beams and the attachment plates and was just 2mm out on the width on one end.

After a bit more measuring I realised that the 2mm was because the x beams were 2mm out of parallel. Fixed that error and the pics below tell the story of the "Perfect Landing", haha.

The moment the attachment plates were welded (and still some more to do there) the whole structure locked up solidly.

We have had some wet weather here so I washed down the Y beams with degreaser and a nylon scouring pad in the rain. I hand painted the Y beams in the shed and regret not spraying them on a nice fine day as the hundreds of holes in the beams needed constant vigilance to stop the paint running. Slow and steady won the race in the end and the job turned out well.

My next job - disassemble the base and then cut the angles on the end of the X Beams - Hope all that stuff about thin cutting disks on the forum is the go because I'm planning a freehand attack on them.

Regards
Ross

[Besser]

Just to let you know about the USB extensions and getting a hub near the y-car. http://www.data-alliance.net/-strse-74/USB-2.0-Active-Repeater/Detail.bok
An active repeater cable is probably the go as a cat 5 solution is to costly. Running a double extension gives 10m plus the length of any hub lead.

Like the progress!

[Surfcnc]

Cheers - Ebay has a 5m cable out of Singapore for $8.99 incl postage (cheaper than a quality shielded cable here in Australia). I have some 3G wireless modem installations and a camera installation I can test it on to establish how they go.
Ross

[Surfcnc]

Rule number one is apparently - Stop and Think.

Pluged in my welder to fix the newly made plates onto the X beams and heard a tiny tick... then nothing. Checked the circuit breakers on the machine and the house fuse box and gave them a flick on and off ...still nothing.

Dropped the welder off for repair a few suburbs away only to be told I needed to bring the leads etc. Unperturbed I turned around and repeated the journey this time with all the leads.

Got out my "toy" welder to just tack it up then realised that either both my welders and now even my grinder had all failed or something else may ibe the cause of all is inactivity !!
In fact the newly installed 15Amp circuit had given up the ghost. Called the sparky to fix up his work and gave up for the day.

Note to self - Check EVERYTHING before doing ANYTHING, hehe.

Attached is a photo of the plates and one of the X Beams with a nice 45 degree angle cut on it.

[Claudiu]

Ross, what are these plates for?

[Surfcnc]

Hi Claus

The plates cover the four cut ends of the two X beams. Mentally slide one of the plates forward in the photo and that is where it fits.

Regards
Ross

[Claudiu]

Ok, I was just too blind to make the connection and see it from the photos.
Good luck with your build...:)

[AuS MaDDoG]

Looking good Ross!! I guess the thin cutting discs done the job then ;)
Did you bend the plates up, or did you have someone bend them for you?

Cheers
Tony

[Surfcnc]

To bend the plates I clamped a guide across the width of the plate and then cut most of the way through with a normal thickness cutting disk. The cut is then V'd out a bit more on the edges so it can close cleanly to the 45 degrees. The plates were then put in a bench vice and "gently" hit with a lump hammer.

After the plates were welded into place, I ran a filler bead along the inside of the cut to close it up. Photos show my first effort then I had a second go at it with a much tidier result

Yes Tony those thin disks work really well, the best hint I can give you is to start from the middle of the cut then work outward from both directions. Used that technique on my second through to fourth cuts and it went very well. I clamped a guide and cut along it for all the cuts.

Dodgy First Go
8688 8689

Final Result
8690 8691

Regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

This rainy weekend, myself and my electrician took to the control box to see what we could achieve. We segmented our knowledge into our allotted voltages, me the low voltage and him the 240 voltage and together we came up with a great result. Definitely not finished at this point as the Estop, the run button and the pause button are not wired up yet.

My sparky takes credit for the box layout and acute attention to the voltage separation. He is also a dab hand with the side cutters and the boot lace crimper. I work in slow motion by comparison with my wire strippers and the crimper. An issue for further research by the sparky is the possibility of fitting an electrical safety switch.

The end result - I connected up a little Atom 330 PC (the one I built up to prove my self wrong in a previous post), the parallel port external cable, one stepper on the X axis and ran the Mach3 trial cutting the road runner.... it moved. In case your thinking this is just to good to be true, the next test was to jog the stepper and it just pulsed back and forth. Re-tuning the motor to a slower speed helped and away it went, spinning smoothly in response to a jog command.

Regards
Ross

[javeria]

Ross have you mentioned anywhere the size of the box you have used to house the electronics.

[Surfcnc]

Hi Irfan

The box is 600 x 600 x 200 mm. It is all steel including the backplate that I'm using to heatsink the stepper drivers.

Regards
Ross

[Regnar]

The wire ducting does make it look nice! I could be wrong but by using a metalic plate around your printer port that comes out the side I believe this now grounds your breakout board with the rest of the system ( no longer opto isolated ). Again I could be wrong but I thought I read it somewhere around here.

[Surfcnc]

Thanks Russell - I had all the gear to insulate around the expansion socket but ended up doing it this way. My reasoning at the time (*note I welcome any factual input to the contrary) was...

1. the tang is normally touching all the metal on the PC case where it would usually go.

2. looked at how the plug connected and could not see how any connection / short to the pins could be made to the box due to the plastic in the middle of the external connector and the plastic shield at the back of the cable end were the pins run into the inside of the box as a flat cable. In summary, the modified tang literally holds the connection in place and has no electrical connection to the PC or the break out board other than the earth in the box itself.

Over to those that know about these things for their comment.

Regards
Ross

[riesvantwisk]

Ross,

Russel is right here. You don't want the printer port be 'grounded' on your case.

The reasoning is to prevent ground loops, if you ground your printer cable like this you get the following ground loop (in it's simple form).

220V Socket => computer case > printercable => controlbox => 220V Socket

You need to break that loop by not letting the shield of the printer cable to touch the control box. The tricky thing is that this setup might work for you, but it's a potential source of problems.

You could also not ground your computer ;) But the control box is called a dirty ground, a dirty ground can have potentially lot's of 'signals' in there from router, Gecko's etc... You don't want to have these signals around your printer cable. So the best is to have the printer cable, computer and bob be electrically separated from the controlbox.

Obvious you do need to use a plug for your computer with ground for safety, So the control box and computer are grounded/connected to each other outside the control box only avoiding ground loops.


Ries

[Surfcnc]

Thanks Ries

I can always make the hole a little bigger and use a plastic insulator.

Cheers
Ross

[Surfcnc]

I have put a multimeter on the across the two cable shields at each end of the parallel cable that I am using to connect the control box to the PC.
No continuity is evident, that is, there is no connection across the two cable shields on the control box and on the PC to make the earth loop.

Checking the pin outs for the DB25 connector shows lots of signal grounds as per the image attached. I assume these grounds will always be made from the control box to the PC and contained within the DB25 connector itself.
8814

I can't seem to understand the difference isolating the control box shield end makes to the ground loop, can anyone assist me to understand?

Thanks
Ross

[riesvantwisk]

Ross,

if you don't measure a connection between the two ends of your parallel port connectors measuring on the metal part of the connectors then your cable might not be shielded in the first place. So essentially you will not create odd ground loops with THIS cable.

Just be aware if you change parallel port cables that does have this shield, then you might introduce odditiy to the system just be aware of that.

As a side note and tip, is your cable fully wired?

Ries

[Surfcnc]

Thanks again Ries, a good explanation so it is nice and clear now. Different cables are made in different ways.

Is my cable fully wired? good question. I think it is, but thinking so is not enough evidence to actually know it is. Tomorrow I will check the pins for continuity and get back to you.

Regards
Ross

[Gerald D]

Irfan also had problems with a cable that had too high a resistance.

[javeria]

yes I had problems with high resistance cables and a 0.1 to 0.3 ohm resistance is what you should look for.

[riesvantwisk]

Irfan,

although I trust your findings I find 0.1 to 0.3 ohm resistance really low (measured). My multimeter (not one of these fancy yearly calibrated meters) does measure 0.5Ohm just by shorting out the wires from the multimeter itself I know you can correct this in your measurements but read on...

Looking at this table : http://www.epanorama.net/documents/wiring/wire_resistance.html (see Copper wire resistance table)

For a AWG 28 it states 43.4Ohm/100Meter = 4Ohm per 10 meter, my cable I just tested measures around 5.5Ohm for a 10 meter printer cable (again I have a cheap multi-meter) . Unless you had a really short really short cable, in the order of 50cm then you would measure these low values (may be a AWG 26 cable??)

But, the input resistance of PC->BoB PMDX122 is in the order of 10KOhm pull-up if I remember correctly, so I highly doubt that even 10Ohm or 100Ohm cable resistance will make the system fail on just cable.

If I would needed to trouble shoot this problem, I wouldn't think of a resistance problem of the printer cable when measured < 10Ohm.

Ries

[Surfcnc]

Ries

Tested the cable and it is fully wired on all the pins, so hopefully that means I can set Mach3 to do what ever it wants down the pins. Also checked the resistance of the cable, it is 6.2 ohms for a 3m cable.

My cheap and cheerful multimeter also records around the same value of .4 - .5 ohms on the 200 ohm scale when the probes are shorted. As it has no infinity icon it reports 1 and a few spaces back to the decimal point when open circuit.

Spot on with the info there Ries.

Regards
Ross

[javeria]

Ries - my multimeter is a fluke 87v, which was calibrated 2 years back, now if that matters or not I don't know-

this is where I have documented it http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1180

In my case I did not find find any difference in cuts when I did smaller 2 d works - but on a detailed cut sheet the missed steps was noticeable.

[riesvantwisk]

Irfan,

I am still surprised that your cable is 0.03Ohm, I re-checked the specs here : http://www.mwswire.com/barecu6.htm and 1000feet of awg26 is 40Ohm, one meter would result in 40Ohm/(1000feet/30)=0.833Ohm/meter, that's not even close to 0.03Ohm!

I fail to see the difference between 3Ohm and 0.03Ohm while a breakout board with a good input impedance would be around 10KOhm, I wounder what teh Specs of your BoB say about this...

Anyways, your systems works, that's what counts.. and Ross knows hat to lookout for!

Ries

[Gerald D]

Ries & Irfan, it could simply have been a case of a dirty connector pin on a particular cable and that could be why replacing the cable fixed it. I tend to agree that measuring "resistance" is going to be a tricky subject if we are just going to hold probes against pins.

[Surfcnc]

Hi Guys

I agree that measurement error coupled with instrument error and a typical lack of calibration means we are likely to see some vastly different readings. The discussion did make me think more fully about the subject though and I now have some gotchas to watch out for.

Regards
Ross

[javeria]

All, when I was perplexed why my machine was missing steps,, I found out that a friend of mine had the same problem on his plasma machine, and in both case - it was the ready made parallel port cable problem.

may be we should put this matter to rest now here.

[riesvantwisk]

@Mike, may be you can move the couple of posts over to a suitable place?
I feel we hijacked Ross this thread now, that wasn't our intention..

[Surfcnc]

Post 97 and 98 discussed USB repeater cables. I have now done a few tests and can confirm that they pass a signal very well over long runs of USB cable/s.

Anyone who is passing data over longish runs on USB be it control to a smoothstepper or images back from a webcam might consider this as a very cheap insurance policy to protect the quality of the signal.

Acknowledgement to Besser for his suggestion.

Regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

A further note - I have found that USB over Cat5/6 adapters are now selling out of China for around 12 AUD. These will give a 150m max cable run over Ethernet cable and do not require external power. These adapters are now on a price par with a 5m USB extender cable but allow the freely available, cheap and pre-wired Ethernet cables to be used.

Looks like ethernet cable might find it's way into the Mechmate cable chains after all.

8843

Regards
Ross

[jehayes]

Ross: Wish I had found these earlier!:) Thanks for doing the research. I may just go back and rewire!

Joe

[Besser]

Thanks for the updated into, where do we get the adapter or are we looking at a bulk order?

[Surfcnc]

Hi Besser

An Ebay search "USB Cat5" will lead to a few different international sellers.

Regards
Ross

[AuS MaDDoG]

How about an update Ross???

Cheers
Tony.

[Surfcnc]

Hi Tony and Others

That would require some work being done !!

I have progressively knocked over other commitments both social and work since my recent return from holidays and hope to have another go at the machine after Easter.
As I wander past the components they are just calling out to be assembled.

Regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

Hi All

I have been procrastinating about paint and when to paint.
Decided to paint the lower table first but snagged on finding what I considered to be a good colour in the hammer tone finish paints.

As usual tried mixing some paint of my own using a metalic blue and a black epoxy paint.
It did not work well as the silicone in the hammer finish seems to prevent proper mixing of the black epoxy.

After much searching I found a refinish supplier paint shop who made up a paint I liked from a silver hammer finish base and a blue - red tinter.
Tuned out a nice colour and was very easy to spray with a HVLP gun at 50 PSI thinned with 10-20 percent automotive thinners.

Attached is a pic of the table legs in their new paint. Everything had a full coast of grey primer before the top coat of hammer finish.
The X beams and the Y Cross Bearers are still outside waiting for a second coat but are the same shiny colour.

9219

Finally tidied up my welding on the ladder frames for the table base by grinding, priming, filling with acrylic filler and then priming them again.
They are now presentable enough to get their own coat of paint.

9220

Regards
Ross

[AuS MaDDoG]

Hey!!

I wondered how long it was going to be before we had an update :D Looking very good Ross, and the hammertone colour sounds very interesting.

[Surfcnc]

Tony - Finally !

For reference I used two liters of paint to do one topcoat on the legs, the X beams and the Y cross bearers.
That leaves the ladder frames to do in two coats and another coat for the other components.

Looks like 5-6 liters of topcoat will do the whole job incl. the gantry and Y car and a few touch ups - way more than I originally guessed.

Ross

[KenC]

Ross, That is nice paint job. Also a lot of paint, I only bought 2 liters of top coat & still have enough balance for a 3rd coat... no solvent too...

[Surfcnc]

Hi Ken

Yes it is a lot of paint but the hammer finish effect changes with the volume of paint wet out.
When spray applied, you spray for your desired level of hammer toning and that is how much paint you use.

It is a pretty thick coat and needs to harden up before it is worked with.
I leave it to "cook" in the sun for a day or so but it is still soft eniough to mark for a while so a touchup will be required here and there.

I have followed your build as you know, and as we both have selected this finish it just has to be the the best one, haha.

Regards
Ross

[KenC]

I mentioned the volume so that other builder won't have to stock up excessive paint ;)

Careful with cooking the paint, contrary to common believes, paint don't really like heated up under the sun too much. Here, metal can heat up to easily 85C & as high as 100C, which is demaging to the paint. Years ago when I was a lot younger, I left one of my paint job under the sun for a day & I got bubblle effect on it, then I found out the paint actually boiled...

For my build, I gave at least 16 hours to cure before the next coat. Over 3 day after the final coat before I did any work on it. but I recon you need more then that.

[Surfcnc]

Hi Ken

I found a hole in the tin maybe that's where the paint went !!
Only kidding again there Ken - used 4 liters so far and I'm pretty sure it all went on to the steel excepting for a little over spray.

As I am thinning with automotive thinners it dries a fair bit quicker than the same product thinned with turps.
Part of the explanation for the paint use is I have to spray it thickly to get it to wet out and hence form the hammer finish.
The benefit here is it dries more quickly and it is easier to get a run free finish than thinning with turps.
If you thin with turps you will get a better gloss but a slower drying time.

I got a bargain on the paint and for 2 liters paid less than 3/4 of the normal shelf price for 1 liter, so using a bit more paint has not added any significant extra expense.

Thanks for the tip on the sun, I will move it into the garage once it is cured enough to not mark the paint.
My progress so far ... lots of blue as per the Mechmate manifesto.

9222

Regards
Ross

[domino11]

Looking good Ross!

[Surfcnc]

Thanks Heath

Now to leave it for a few days to cure before assembling it.

Regards
Ross

[AuS MaDDoG]

Hi Ross,

Looks impressive!! all that painted steel. What did you use to prep all your steel and what was the process? going to be looking to prime ours up sometime fairly soon, we have a fair amount of prep to do with regards to surface rust mainly on the main X beams and Y support channels, so interested to hear what your process was.

We might need to have another little get togetherat some stage once you have yours all together again, would be nice too see it nearing completion. Plus I have your countersink bit too return too.:)

Cheers
Tony

[Surfcnc]

Hi Tony

Just finished stacking the stuff inside my garage.

The steel was degreased and vigorously wet scrubbed with a plastic scouring pad. Destroyed quite a few in the process.
Any thing else that needed attention was just given a (very) rough sand, blown off with some air and then cleaned down with thinners.
After that, it is was spray undercoated with a grey rust guard primer (White Knight) then topcoated with the hammer finish.

I tried tapping some M6 holes on the motor plates and all was going well by hand.
Got greedy and then broke a bottom tap off just running one hole through with the battery drill !!
A crash, bash and hammer later had the broken bit out and managed to still put a new thread down the hole. Today was my lucky day it seems.

Cheers on the countersink Tony, it's nearly time to catch up again.

Regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

Finished tapping the M6 threads in the motor plates this evening.
After finishing the motor plate taps I was thinking about how to keep the tap at 90 degrees and the number of taps in the X beams and gantry.
Made two M6 and M8 guides out of 20x20mm stock to keep me straight to start off with.
The pic is a little hard to see but it is a hole in the stock that "just" fits the tap.

9241

Also made up the 20x6mm clamp strips for the gantry.
A question for the knowledgeable, one gantry tube is 2mm longer than the other one.
Can I get away with this variation or should I attempt to cut the extra 2mm off the long tube?

Thanks in advance
Ross

9242

[Surfcnc]

I have continued to test a webcam over the USB baluns mentioned in post 126 over a range of cable runs and they reliably run it over 10 - 15m.
The baluns will make the connection to the webcam initially at 20 and 30 meters but will not maintain it.
Not great, but better than the 5m standard cable run for a USB cable on its own.

Ross

[AuS MaDDoG]

Hi Ross,

I would think that the Gantry beams would have to be exactly the same size otherwise your gantry will end up out of square before you even start.

Cheers
Tony.

[Robert M]

Ross,
Your question on gantry tube length is a ligit concern, but not a reasonable one.
They are part of an assembly that you must assemble (weld) square.
One simple method is to cut both of those tube together at the same time, held be some sort of clamping, assuring an exactly same length without measuring anything.
BUT YES, they MUST be the same length. Read some more about how to weld & assemble the gantry here (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230)and here (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2174&postcount=1).

Best of luck. Amicalement, Robert ;)

[Surfcnc]

Hi Robert

I should know to never even think about cutting a corner, so I hear both you and Tony loud and clear on this one.

Thanks for the advice.

Regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

A milestone for my project today as I assembled the table base this evening.
Time to also acknowledge the many others on the forum who have contributed their photos and ideas for me to use in my own build. Thank you.

Here are the photos of my table base going together.
9244 9245
9247 9246

Regards
Ross

[KenC]

Very nice!

[Travish]

Looks good Ross! The color has some sparkle to it?

What size table are you building? 4'x4'?

[Surfcnc]

Hi Travis

Yes the paint has a metalic in it.
The table size is 2500 x 1300.

Ross

[Surfcnc]

Popped together the Y Car for a test fit this evening and was very impressed with both the quality of the laser cutters work and Gerald's DXF files.
It literally snapped into place excepting the the last corner that took a little hammer to convince the tab to go into place.
As per other reports it holds itself together even before it has seen a weld to it.
9252 9253
9254

Springs - searched high and low for a spring that was near the plan spec and came up blank.
In the end found a specialist spring manufacturer in one of our industrial estates who could make myself, Skippy and Aus MadDog a set each.
The proprietor was happy to see the Mechmate plan M3 10 100 K B as his guide.
He said he could get the 12 kg force at 128mm as per the spec from his computer controlled spring making machine.

Regards
Ross

[Kobus_Joubert]

Hi Ross what are you doing with my tablesaw. I think we have the exact same model. Does yours also have the sliding table on the left side ?

[Surfcnc]

Hi Kobus

Have you checked in your shed to see if it is still there !!
It is quite old now and still perfectly functional, but I remember when I bought it the sliding table was an option (unfortunately I did not buy it at the time).
The thing that drew me to it was the very good quality fence it had for the price.

I have worn out the original motor and replaced it with a more powerful one the second time around.
It is pretty much a one owner dog if you know what I mean.
I have seen very tough men step back when it starts and cabinet makers shudder in horror at the lack of guarding.
The original riving knife setup was an accident waiting to happen so it came off and never went back on.

Hope yours has also been a faithful servant.

Regards
Ross

[Kobus_Joubert]

I had no problems so far...have changed the v-belt a while ago, but still on the same 2.2 kW motor.

I have not connected my sliding table at the moment due to space constraint, but I am planning to extend my w/shop in November / December adding another 2 meters in the width....then I will have 12 x 5 meter space. At the same time put in proper windows and a ceiling.

[Surfcnc]

Today welded the Y car first with the TIG then later with the stick welder.
The outcome was not what you would call overly pretty but it was straight.

Once I put the two central welds on the plates that hold the Z slide it they kicked out of square.
In order to remedy that I cut 4 short pieces of M10 threaded rod and set them to were they should have been top and bottom with some nuts and washers (210 mm to the outside of each plate from memory).
It worked well and when I undid the rods, the plates remained square.... thankfully !

I ground off what was some horrible looking mounds of TIG welding and the pics below are the outcome.

Regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

Set the table level with a water level to a mm or so and then clamped the gantry tubes to the tables as per the Aus Maddog and Skippy setup.

Pleased to report the distortion was absolutely nothing and the gantry sits on the table with no twist at all.
The welding is strong and has good penetration but is going to need a tidy up with the grinder to make it look presentable.

Been doing my homework on the rail cutting and grinding options - no clear winner at this stage on my method.

Regards
Ross

[AuS MaDDoG]

Well Done Ross!!

Your gantry looks just like ours :D
three gantrys now done using this same method and worked a treat for all, certainly a nice easy setup and way to do it, and the end result ends up working out spot on with no distortion what so ever, certainly helps having everything bolted and clamped.

Let us know when you are ready to do your rail cutting and we can arrange the use of our skate parts if required. Just not sure what your thinking yet :eek: should be getting onto cutting and grinding ours soon, I think I have put it off for long enough now!!

Cheers
Tony.

[J.R. Hatcher]

Ross in the US we call it Bondo. I used it to smooth out some of my welds. Use a flexible rubber hose to spread it out in corners. This is much faster than grinding and leaves the weld as strong as it can be. :D This should make Gerald happy ............ he hates to see welds ground. :p

[domino11]

So you should never grind welds? I was told long ago that the only thing different from a bad welder to a good welder is a good grinder. :)

[J.R. Hatcher]

Sorry if I didn't make my last post clear. I was trying to say ... don,t grind the welds ......... cover and smooth them out with bondo. Just the weld not the seam.

[domino11]

Jr, yeah that is what I was saying, the old rule I heard was if your welds look crappy, then just grind em till they look good. :) Were we not supposed to use the filler (bondo or painters caulk) to fill the seams, so they would not corrode. I thought I remember Gerald saying something about sharp edges and seams being the first place for corrosion to start? Could be my memory though. :)

[melissa]

Were we not supposed to use the filler (bondo or painters caulk) to fill the seams, so they would not corrode. I thought I remember Gerald saying something about sharp edges and seams being the first place for corrosion to start? Could be my memory though. :)

You've got it correct, Heath.

I think Gerald's bigger point was: weld enough to make it strong, and then fill the remaining gaps (between the welds) with caulking to prevent corrosion.

You could seam-weld the whole thing, but then you get distortion issues from the heat.

Michel

[Gerald D]

There is only one thing worse than a weld that has been ground, and that is a weld covered with Bondo! :)

My logic with my production workers at my factory is that the welds must pass inspection without grinding. But, if you are the inspector, then you can do whatever you want with your welds :)

[Surfcnc]

A reasonable match for the Mechmate motor springs were hard to come by here in Australia, so a local spring maker did a custom for myself, Aus Maddog and Skippy.
They were made as per M3 19 100 KB and came in to within 5% of the 12 Kg force at 128mm extension specification.

Not important to be that exact I know but as they were making them ...
For those of you not wishing to go blind counting the coils their are indeed 35 as per the drawing.

9351

For reference you Aussies, the details are...
Gibbens Pty Ltd
37B Manton St
Morningside Queensland

If you refer to Job order 43028 they can reproduce the same spring for you.
Call them re pricing.

Regards
Ross

[AuS MaDDoG]

:D Looking good Ross!!
Need to catch up soon!! all we need now is the machined parts to turn up for the Z and we are almost their!!

Good work

Cheers
Tony.

[Surfcnc]

Got my support board today for the mechmate.
As previously stated REALLLLY looking forward to having a flat work surface.

It is a 32 mm humidity resistant MDF sheet.
To protect it, the underside and sides are coated with a super tough undercoat and then a coat of gloss black enamel has been rolled over that.

9378

Regards
Ross

[skippy]

Looking really good Ross

Just one quick Question do you think that will rust or are they of no rusting metal or do we need to coat them with something that stop them from rusting?
Can't wait to fit them the our Mechmates.

Regards

Paul

[Surfcnc]

Hi Paul

Thought the same thing myself. It is a an alloy steel but it would rust in a corrosive environment.
They can be painted or powder coated but to do a good job they would need to be painted extended as the coils are very tight.
Personally mine won't get any paint at least until they show some sign of corrosion as I don't think it is a major issue judging by the number of unpainted springs used on the machines displayed in the forum.

Regards
Ross

[Gerald D]

Do you have any "electroplaters" around? Common procedure is to send springs to an electroplater to have them zinc-plated (electro-zinc). The spring maker could have offered you this option.

[Surfcnc]

Thanks Gerald - I will ask the spring maker.

Regards
Ross

[KenC]

drip a few drops of oil (any oil) on the spring.

[Gerald D]

From the Gibbens website: "Plating springs causes some distortion in the spring, so when possible choose a pre-plated material, this will once again save both time and money"

The pre-plated wire option is not known around here, and we regularly have that size/class of spring sent to electro-platers without problems.

But, back to basics, you can spraypaint those springs as well......just extend them while painting.

[Surfcnc]

Checked in with the manufacturer and he confirmed over the phone what Gerald has quoted from the website.
He also gave me his source for electroplating but mine will get a coat of paint at best.
In the end they are cheap to replace if one should break, rust or meet some other fate.

Skippy, a few bolts anchored in a piece of steel with the springs stretched between them will do fine as a painting jig.
Put your eye protection on, or with your remaining eye, it will be much harder to stretch them over the jig when the spring flies off !!!

Regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

The cable chains for the X and Y axis' arrived today.
I used a combination of the forum guide and the manufacturers brochure to get the length figured out.

Bit of a mystery this cable chain thing to me, but once you see them they are like a plastic blocks, just clicking together with the blue pivot pins
The system "CPS" uses is quite simple with each component clearly marked.
The side on shot here shows a 55 mm wide chain with a bend radius of 70mm, all very clearly marked out by the manufacturer on every component.
9382

The other shots below show how the various plugs and bits clip together.
Also wrestled my painted support board up on the table ready to be drilled and bolted into place.

Regards
Ross

[AuS MaDDoG]

Noicccceeeee!!

They will look great on the finished MM, had confirmation today ours are also on the way. Cheers for the info Ross.
With regards to the springs, some regular maintainance and some lanolin spray should take care of them for quite some time :D

Cheers
Tony.

[Surfcnc]

Today was a bit of a tidy up on the machine.

After checking my base board, it came to light that the upper table was about 10mm out of square.
I borrowed my neighbours porta power, backed off the bolts on the X beams and gently pushed on the Y cross bearers.

The table was squared using the support board as a guide.
Of course the support board was meticulously checked for square before using it as a guide. It all come together within a millimeter.

9434 9435

My Z slide support bases came in the mail today from a unnamed source. That unnamed bloke did a really good job, so thanks.

Ross

[Surfcnc]

Today I mounted the support base after one more "final" adjustment.

I used a long 8mm drill bit to drill from underneath the table.
In order to get an accurate counter bore for the cuphead bolts I made a jig and used a pattern following router to route a nice flat recess for the cup head to land on.
That took a fair bit longer and made a pretty decent mess a my dust extractor is still on loan for the time being.
Here is a pic of the bolt grid, note I put two in on the edges to take either a 1300 or 1200 wide base board.

9439 9440

regards
Ross

[AuS MaDDoG]

Ross,

Sorry to hear about the hassles you have had with the squarness of your table, but good to see you have it all under control:D
I like your support board good and solid and well protected on the underside.

Did you manage to get your replacement ends for your E-Chain yet?? if so have you got any photos?? of the ends.

Cheers
Tony.

[Surfcnc]

Hi Tony

No problems really with the squaring issue as I just had to unbolt the beams then re tighten them in the correct position - if it was welded then THAT would be a different story.
It was just fun to use the porta power, you know the sledgehammer walnut analogy.

The ends came and I fitted them up, so now they all point to the right places on the machine. Images show the details.

X Chain
9441

Y Chain
9442

Regards
Ross

[AuS MaDDoG]

Cool!!
Thanks Ross :)

Cheers
Tony.

[Gerald D]

. . Sorry to hear about the hassles you have had with the squarness of your table . . .

We screw the support board to the cross-beams before welding them to the sides. The board becomes a huge welding jig. :)

[Surfcnc]

Hi Gerald

After using my support board as the squaring jig I see exactly what you mean there.

Regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

Seems I got some white spot on the table overnight. Must be a spray for that !

I used some of my crystal clear two part surfboard epoxy with some white pigment mixed in to make it very obvious the cup head bolts where below - hence the white spot.

9452 9453

Regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

Rails were cut today - all went well.
I will do one more pass over the cut surface with a thick grinding disk before the V gets ground.

Used the 1mm Pfred disks I had and it took one each for the Y rails and one and a half for each X rails.
9466 9467

Regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

My "quick tidy up" did not turn out that way today.

As I passed the grinding disk over the rail to take off the last little bit, I realised that the disk was wearing and causing some variation in the rail height.
After rotating through three grinding disks then adjusting for wear and starting again, I thought there must be a better way - and there was, much better.

Somewhere on the forum I read that instead of grinding the V on the rails, the poster used a sanding disk and a grinding disk as a backing pad.
My goodness did that work !!! With a relatively coarse 36 grit sanding disk, the cutting jig effortlessly produced a perfectly flat and smooth finish, Eureka.
As I sanded the rail again I could actually tell where the previous grinding disks were wearing judging by the way the rail threw off the sparks.
The second photo shows the before rail on the right and the after rails on the left.

As I put my jig together, it became clear that the grinding disk was not going to be able to be replaced without slacking off the jig bolts to slip it out.
Went out and got some more sanding disks of various grits from 36 to 120.
I am planning to use the 36 grit for the majority of the removal and then a pass with the finer grits to finish.
The benefit of using the sanding disks is they do not wear down anything like the grinding disks AND the replacement sanding disk just slips out of the jig without undoing any bolts.

Although I have not tested the sanding on the V yet, I suspect the removal rate will be far quicker judging by the removal rate of the rails cut edge.
There was no evidence of blueing (heating) of the steel even at quite high removal rates but it might happen if it was pushed to excess.

A few more pics for you all.

Regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

Firstly I found the poster who demonstated the sanding disk method, so thank you to Artifeh (Nader)

Finished the two long X rails before life called me from the garage.
Also sanded my thumb but thats another story.

Started with 36 grit then went to 60 grit and the finish was great.
As I had some 120 grit disks I used them for a quick pass but it was probably not required.
It was fast and easy to do and the sanding disks lasted very well at one per rail.
Only really changed them because I had them there to use.

My something special to add to the lubricant on the rails issue was that I used candle wax rubbed on when needed.
It proved to be clean and provided a really smooth run up and down the rails.

The photos attached are in macro and in the flesh the rails look perfect.

Regards
Ross

[KenC]

Well done!
Its good that you didn't grind the angle any further, keeping a 3~5mm flat makes the slide work can prevent the height setting bolt from digging into the angle iron.

[Surfcnc]

Hi Ken - Thanks for the encouragement.

That 3 - 5 mm flat you are looking at in the photo is actually 1.25mm wide !!
The macro is really close up and kind of makes it hard to see the 45 degree bevels and you loose perspective somewhat.
Drawing M1 10 110 MC states the rails are to be ground at 45 degrees leaving a 1mm flat at the top, so I stopped just short of that.
The candle wax worked very well in letting the jig slide but I did also polish of the ends of the adjustment bolts so they ran along the rail easily.

Regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

Picked up the X slide from Paul (Skippy) this weekend and it seems good.
I have yet to actually measure anything but the quality and the tool steel itself looks just fine. Paul has included a link on his thread to the engineer who made them for us.

I also made some car stoppers and just now need to weld them up.

Have a look at how the bolts wore on my grinding skate height adjustment, about half way though I noticed the wear and swapped them out for a high tensile bolt.
The HT bolt showed much less wear but I presume it wore the rail down instead.

Lastly my trusty dust collector is back from it extended vacation on a building site. After a BIG clean up and it looks like new.
I have started a bit of a "two stage filter" modification using the Thien baffle concept and up sizing the collection pipe to six inches.
The basic specs are it is a 2hp 1500 CFM machine.
The exact same model is still sold here in Queensland, but I got mine about 5 years ago now according to the serial number plate.

Regards
Ross

[purpura]

beautifull job Roos¡¡¡¡ thaks for the pictures

[Surfcnc]

I made the upper and lower parts of my rubbish bin (75L) Thien dust seperator today.
Hoping for a massive improvement in dust management over some of my previous setups.
Really enjoyed the router work to make the separator as I promised myself I would have a good extraction system in place before anything was cut on the new machine.

Attached are two pics of the Thien assembly and another of a pleated filter cartridge installed in place of the old 30 micron bag.

Regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

Hi All

I have still to build a new trolley and a steel frame to hold the motor but ran a test today of the Thien Separator.
It really does work well with a strong vortex spinning all the stuff to the outside and then dropping down the slot.
It does not need the polycarbonate but I really wanted to be able to see what was happening inside the separator to judge its effectiveness.
Boy is it effective !!

Regards
Ross

[purpura]

Hi Roos, i like a loot the seoparator¡¡¡, and i like mor becaus dont use more espace than a normas bacum, ¿coud you drow a little esquematic plam of the separator?
Thanks enyway for the idea.

PD: sorri for my bad englis.

[Surfcnc]

Hi Gonzalo

A plan and a video can found at http://www.cgallery.com/smf/index.php?topic=262.0.
The Pipe Joint Template web application at http://www.harderwoods.com/pipedocs.html is very helpful.

Regards
Ross

[purpura]

Thanks Ross, this will be my nex prollect, i will so you wen is finis, thanks:)


and the program is fantastic¡¡¡¡¡

[Surfcnc]

A few more flexible hoses and it is a going concern.
Some concessions have been made to make it compact but it should still work well.

Regards
Ross

[AuS MaDDoG]

Very!! Very!! Niceeeeee Ross!! I love it!! might need to get me one of them ;)

Cheers
Tony.

[Kobus_Joubert]

More important is that white thing on the RHS. Keep them cool :)

[Surfcnc]

Thanks Tony - Hopefully dust will now be a minor issue (wishful thinking I know).
Kobus - the fridge does form part of the overall MM experience but it just is not directly connected !!

Regards
Ross

[Gerald D]

The fridge keeps the shims fresh.

[Surfcnc]

Hi All

I have been doing more on my build but just nothing really worth taking a photo of, so for the moment that side of things is slumbering.

I have a question re the suitability of a cable Skippy has bought for us.
It is a Belden 6+E .5 mm multi stand conductor cable that has a 10.7 mm diameter and 85% tinned copper shielding. See the PDF Spec Sheet attached for more detail.
The cable chain this cable will be routed through has a 70mm bend radius, the closest we could get to the 75mm plan specification for the bend radius.

What I would like to ask is, if this cable is suitable, as using the rules of thumb it exceeds the bend radius by a good measure.
The availability of the "perfect single cable" that has lots of cores AND a tight bend radius is basically zero here in Australia.

So what have others done about this issue or what experiences have others had putting a similar thickness cable into a working mechmate.

Thanks in Advance

Ross

[rotorzoomer]

I am using the LAPP Olflex Classic 115CY 4G1 Part No. 1136204 (4 Core + Shield)

This cable will be used for everything both internal and external to the control box and will even be used to run my Makita Router @ 2200W running 240V through it by paralleling the 4x strands @ 1.0mm each to make 2x 2.00mm for both Active / Neutral.

My theory when choosing this cable was that i was less focused on getting heaps of strands into a single cable and used the theory that if i needed more strands i just ran another cable from the control box.

[Surfcnc]

Thanks for your input Mark, some good sense there.

Regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

My Spider came back from the laser cutters less the all important alignment marks for the six V bearing bolts.
Marking it up was proving difficult then I came across someone on the forum who had used a permanent marker refill to create a paint surface that can then be scratched to give a highly visible line.
Looked for the post again but could not find it, none the less thanks as it helps us not so familiar with the tricks of the metalworking trade.

Here is a pic of the result.
9832

While I'm at it -

Go Kobus with your new UIRobot controllers - I have read all the specs and now even wishing that Mach was CAN aware !!

Regards
Ross

[Kobus_Joubert]

Hi Ross, being cutting all afternoon as we have a holiday today. Those drivers are working like it should....no problems so far. Still waiting for some cable to put the driver ON the stepper to test.

[Surfcnc]

Ebay Australia has some touch screen monitors (only the monitor panel not the whole internet kiosk) the same as Aus Maddog and Skippy up for auction.
They are set at pretty good price for a used 15 inch touch panel, but you will need to make your own judgement on that side of things.

Check out http://cgi.ebay.com.au/15-Touchscreen-Monitor-/280521455940?cmd=ViewItem&pt=AU_comp_monitor&hash=item415061b944#ht_500wt_1154 if you think you might be able to use one in your build.

Regards
Ross

[southernduckie]

Hello Ross,

As an industrial electrician i can offer the following advice for your cable,

yes you have exceeded the bend radius by enough to cause problems.
the first issues you will experience is broken cores in the cable this could cause problems if u use this for stepper morors depending on driver selection (open circuits blow the output stages).
at best i might guess this cable might last 1-2 years tops. you would be mutch better off using 2 or 4 core cables.

A more expensve option is using rubber insulated cables (may need to made to order)$$$
Regards Andrew




Hi All

I have a question re the suitability of a cable Skippy has bought for us.
It is a Belden 6+E .5 mm multi stand conductor cable that has a 10.7 mm diameter and 85% tinned copper shielding. See the PDF Spec Sheet attached for more detail.
The cable chain this cable will be routed through has a 70mm bend radius, the closest we could get to the 75mm plan specification for the bend radius.

What I would like to ask is, if this cable is suitable, as using the rules of thumb it exceeds the bend radius by a good measure.
The availability of the "perfect single cable" that has lots of cores AND a tight bend radius is basically zero here in Australia.

Ross

[Surfcnc]

Thanks Duckie

The cable was to be used for signaling and as such the individual cores are only .5 mm2, far too small for a stepper.
I take your advice on the bend radius and a picture of what is the way to go is now forming solidly in front of me as a result of inputs from a wide range of sources.

I have had a significant rethink on cabling and to be honest even my own fall back position on cable for my steppers is underdone.
I might add this is the second time I have bought 50m drums of cable I probably won't use, so it starting to hurt a little.

The real issue here was a supplier of high quality cable was slow to rise to the top of a somewhat limited pool of automation cable resellers.
A combination of rigorous attention to the specifications of the cables, a different wiring topology and a recognition of the compromises I am prepared to accept all form part of the way forward on the cabling issue.

Once again thanks for your free professional advice, hard to get these days !!

Regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

Today I had some proximity sensors arrive from China.

The specifications are ... NPN NO type - three wire - 4mm sensing distance - 12mm diameter sensor.

Attached are 4 images showing the two states of the sensor in operation and the Mach3 screens.

Sensing Mmetal - the "Normally Open" sensor is closed and the LED in the sensor glows red to indicate it is closed.
9841
9842

Not Sensing Metal - the "Normally Open" sensor is now open, the LED is not lit and the Mach3 screen indicates a limit has been reached and an Estop condition is triggered.
9843
9844

I have followed Gerald's advice on the type and configuration of the sensors as it allows you to tell immediately if a sensor is working by just checking if the LED is lit.
Further any departure from metal, like a lift off the rails, also triggers a stop.

Regards

Ross

[Gerald D]

Ross, while you have a bench test going, would you mind seeing what they do with aluminium as the target?

[Surfcnc]

Hi Gerard

Always keen for an experiment, haha

Sensing distance for steel (20 x 20 square stock) was 4.5 mm.
Sensing distance for Alu (6mm plate) was 2.0mm max.
Voltage to the sensor was 12V DC.

The result suggests that one would need to roughly double the spec of the sensing distance for an Alu target.

Regards
Ross

[Gerald D]

So, if one rides the switches at 1mm above a set of alu rails, it will work. Thanks for testing. (ride at about 2mm for steel)

[smreish]

Ross,
That is exactly what Nils found out while building his machine. He had to use the extended sensing for the aluminum rails. The standard sense worked, but from memory was a little trigger happy!

[Surfcnc]

I am happy now that the proximity sensors are working well when wired in series.
The fine detail is still somewhat cloudy for me though.

The proximity sensors have a power source of 12V DC. After checking the third wire to ground I see it returns 12V DC to the jumper 5, pin 11, on the PMDX-122 board.

I have seen various circuit diagrams some with a relay(s) and a resistor.
I was wanting to ask firstly if a relay is necessary and secondly if a resistor should be used to limit the voltage back to the PMDX-122 to 5 Volts.

If any one can help out with a diagram of their solution or an explanation of what is required , it would be appreciated.

Regards
Ross

[Sergio-k]

Ross

This is how i wired my proximity sensors and is all working fine for me.
http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac106/sergiohelen/Prox.jpg

And these are my relays
http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac106/sergiohelen/RelayS.jpg

In the Mach3 Ports & Pins -----> Input Signals you have to set the X++,X--,X Home.....etc your port and pin and leave the Active Low option UNCHECKED in order your proxys to work with this wiring.
That is because your sensors will be ON while travelling along the rail and OFF when above a hole or a distance over 4mm from the rail.

In the Homing Limits section in Mach3 set up your Soft Min values to zero, your Slow Zone values to 3, check the Auto Zero and set up your Speed % to what suits you (mine is at 50%).
Checking the Home Neg option will move the axis on the negative position for homing, so according to your setup you must check this (or not) for your A axis.

Sergio

[Surfcnc]

Hi Sergio

Thanks, nice and clear, so that's 4 relays and no resistors.

One more question though, I assume you have not run 12 separate wires out from the control box to the proxies, rather series connected three wires in the machine.

Appreciate the quick response - I'm still hunting for those flat DIN mount relays both yourself and Gerald are using. For the moment all I can find is a DIN base and plug in type relays here in Australia.

cheers
Ross

[Surfcnc]

Looking at the wiring again - you probably have run 12 wires.

Ross

[Sergio-k]

Ross

What's coming out of my Control Box is the 2 wires (+ , -) from my 12VDC power supply and the 2 wires from the BOB (pin11 & GND) for the proxies to work.

The whole wiring, instalation of the Relays takes place in the junction box on the Y-Car.

http://i802.photobucket.com/albums/yy309/sergio-k/Fin17.jpg

[Surfcnc]

Sergio

Ahh, the Jbox is where all the action is happening not the control box !
Thanks again for the information and photos.

Ross

[David Bryant]

Hi
Ross Farnell or radio spares for the flat relays in Aust.

What is the part number for the prox switch or a spec sheet link?
I expect we can eliminate the four relays altogether with a bit of logic.
I am not up to mine yet but if you give me a link to the specs of what proxy is being used I will test with a modified "wired or" to eliminate the relays.
Regards
David

[Surfcnc]

Hi David

The ebay link is http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310224910748&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_3499wt_1137 for the NPN NO LM12-33004NA proximity sensors.

Specs copied from the page...
9864
9865

Cheers for the tip on the Australian source for the relays (nearly figured out what they do now but still baby steps).
I will wait and see what you make of the specs and then see what transpires.
Thanks for the offer to design the circuit or at least have a look at it.

Regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

Progress is steady, so here are some pics.
I feel drawing up the hole centers in CAD and applying them to the tube was a mistake, I should have just used the Z slide as a drilling guide.

Mostly what it did was allow me to check the machining of the Z slide plate as I did not do that part myself.
I scratched though the holes with a scribe and then compared that with the drawn overlays - my conclusion - better than I probably could have achieved myself and certainly faster.

Regards
Ross

[Sergio-k]

Ross

If you're keen on a relay board solution then you might check out Dmitriy's
DIY relay board which is fantastic and easy to build.

Check it here : http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=33533&postcount=41

And here are the instructions : http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=42804&postcount=61

Since you're using the same proxies as me (NPN NO) and if you're going for the relay solution then i think there's no other way of wiring them and you cannot omit the relays.

[Surfcnc]

Sergio

Your solution seems less complex for me as a learner in electronics and easier to maintain when something goes wrong.
Those 6mm relay bases are over 20 euro each here now I have found them and that is not counting the cost of the relays.
For some products we really do live on the other side of the planet it seems.

Regards
Ross

[David Bryant]

Hi Ross
I took the couple of hours to search this site and sure enough:
http://mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=584&highlight=Prox

This has been suggested before.
In the above thread Mike Richards shows a better digital way to install the prox sensors without relays using optoisolators. ( An excellent elegant solution, I think) As he pointed out earlier ther is also a a way to do this with a single logic gate, which is what I was thinking of.
Using NPN NO sensors is a good choice for an emergency stop as all the sensors (and relays if used) need to have a current flowing through them in their normal operation.
I think this might be nasty when one wire is intermittant after five years of cutting every day ;) as the cause of a "random" stop is not tracable.
I think the relay solution goes from digital to mechanical (relay) back to digital in the BOB. The small "wetting current" through the relay contacts is not ideal and the mechanical relays moving IMHO is not ideal.


I like Mike richards solution with the optoisolators.

For a simpler STOP system rather than treating the limits as emergency stop is to select NPN NC sensors and parrallel them so if a hole is under a single sensor the limit input to BOB is then triggered. As this only has current flowing at the limit it is not "failsafe" and would require periodic testing. It would not stop the machine when a wire breaks.
This would require no relays and proxies would not be isolated from the board.

Anyway it is now late enough to go outside and weld my table together without waking the neighbours.
I will order my proxies next week and am happy to model/test a few sytems if their is enough interest on this site.
(I just dont like seeing the digital to mechanical to digital thing happening even though I know it is "easier to understand" when it is first made.)
Cheers
David

[Surfcnc]

Hi David

I have read all of Mike's stuff and frankly I just do not understand it as it is well outside of my abilities.
If the proximity thread was printed in ink it would be nearly worn though by now as I have read it that many times.
There is a significant assumption of knowledge wound throughout the proximity thread that has made it no so useful for someone of my limited electronics skills.

Sergio

I have modeled your circuit based upon the SM Reish circuit and it will not work for me.
Connecting a prox directly to 12V I get 10V (not sensing) and .8V (sensing) off the black wire.
Given this the relay coil is energised by two positive 12V sources and buzzing of the coil ensues in either state and voltage.

Connecting the coil to side of the relay to a battery charger + and - terminals gives a far less concerting click and all is well.
Also rechecked I am using NPN NO proximities.

Any ideas - last two days has been filled with wires and relays but outside of passing one prox signal though one relay on the secondary circuit I got nutin as they say.

Thanks in Advance

Ross

[David Bryant]

Hi Ross
I understand it can be confusing.
In the earlier post you showed the sensor working with mach3. What was your wiring?
Can you show a photo of the wiring and any relays you have please.

Do you have spare inputs available or must you use only pin 11?
Cheers

[Surfcnc]

Hi David

Power to prox only test.
+12V on Brown Wire
-12V on Blue Wire
Black Wire is the signal wire

Not Sensing Metal - 9.96V
9891

Sensing Metal - .83V
9892

Finder 12V Relay Test
+12V to A1 Brown Wire
Black Prox Wire (Signal Wire) Changing to White Wire to A2
Blue Wire to -12V
Coil buzzes due to both Inputs being Positive
9893

Proxy Checked to be the NPN NO type
9894

I have also used some 30Amp 5 pin ISO type automotive relays with a similar result.
Putting the coil side to +12V and -12V terminal of a battery charger or a 12 volt automotive battery gives a nice clear click.

Hope this is now a bit clearer.

Ross

[Surfcnc]

David - a bit extra for you.

Input 11 is the typical input and all proximity sensors use this one input on the PMDX-122 board. Each proximity switch does not have a discrete input otherwise this would be much simpler but use lots more wires.

The test where you saw Mach3 working was simply the proxy powered up with + and - 12 volt and the black wire going to pin 11 on the PMDX-122. Mach then triggered on the low voltage when sensing. A very simple setup indeed but it worked fine.

Ross

[David Bryant]

Hi Ross
I suggest that you think of the proxy as a switch (rather than a voltage device. )
The proxy usually gets connected to positive power (yours 12V and ground 0V)
The Black wire in Sergio's post #216 is the ouput of the proxy. as yours is a NO when no metal is near the black lead just floats (That is the Normally Open NO bit.) When metal is detected the "switch is on" and that black wire in #216 is "joined to ground".
If the relay coil is joined to +12V the otherside (-ve) of the coil goes to the black wire of the proxy. The relay should then click when metal is approached.
The proxy is "switching the earth to the relay coil.

(You cant use a large car spotlight relay if it draws too much current.)
Then four of these should be working first.

Switches and relays have a Common a normally closed NC and a Normally Open NO.

It is the common that gets joined to the NC when no power is applied.

When the relay has power (12v connected and the proxy "near metal") then the common is joined to the NO contact.

It is this connection between the COM and NO of each relay in turn (called a series circuit) that means that all the relays have to be "energised" or on for the pin 11 of BOB to be joined to GND of BOB to signal that it is ok to run (ie not at the limit).

When any prox "sees the hole" or moves from the metal it turns is output off shutting off the relay making the COM no longer joined to the NO so a inout is detected at Pin 11 of BOB showing a limit fault.

Hope this helps, you are right the thread on Proxies has a lot of assumed knowledge.
pm me for my phone number in WA if you want to talk through it.
A photo of your wiring, no matter how messy, and the relay will make it easier to talk about.
Cheers
David

[Sergio-k]

Hi Ross

Can you post your relay info and your connections to it ?

[Surfcnc]

David has very kindly waded into my electronics woes and has solved my issues very quickly.

In order to leave a remnant in this thread for others to follow, the issue was that I was using a battery charger (out of picture) to power my test mock ups.
David pointed out to me the power the charger puts out is not smooth DC power and it cycles many (50) times per second.
The chatter I was hearing in the relays was a artifact of this poor quality power source. On David's advice I swapped to a car battery and all the problems immediately were resolved.

Sergio - your circuit diagram at post 216 should now work fine with my dirty power source out of the picture.
I will mock up the complete circuit as soon as I can get a full set of the industrial relays and let everyone know how it went.

Currently building two pedestals, one for David and one for Demitriy to stand upon as I'm never going to touch these two blokes in the electronics stakes.
Of course I will hook them both up to a relay with a nice clean power source.

Regards
Ross

[Sergio-k]

Ross

You made the same mistake as i did :D:D

I had also wired my relays to 12VAC power and thus they were buzzing
when i switched to DC everything was fine.
You should have read my adventures first :D:D:D

Keep cranking you're close to dust :D

Sergio

[Gerald D]

Ross, that relay is also quite big, and its coil may need more current than what the proxy can supply.

[Surfcnc]

Sergio

Yep, should have made the "connection" but honesty I did not have a clue how a 12 volt charger worked, haha. Thanks for your on going monitoring at least now we both know exactly how it feels to look at a pile of relays buzzing when they shouldn't be !!!

Gerald

Thanks as well for the caution on the relay current draw. David mentioned how to check a relay when they had the power across the coil. The sensor I am using has a 200ma current draw so he suggested I limit the coil current draw to 150ma max to provide a bit of overhead for temp and vibration. So much to learn.

Regards
Ross

[Gerald D]

From post #222, the proxy can drive 200mA.

The Finder 55 series needs 1 Watt to drive its DC coil, and a 62 series could need 3 Watt. Those Wattages at 12V are equivalent to 83mA for 1 Watt and 250mA for 3 Watt.

You can find the Finder specs here: http://www.findernet.com/en/products/product_profile.php#ind

Ross, that was a cross-post with your last.

[Surfcnc]

Checked the value for the 56 series relay and it was 90ma so it's a keeper.
Thanks for the link as I was still searching for the specs.
regards
Ross

[PEU]

Did the seller provided an internals schematic of the sensor? I don't quite understand why double power supply rails are needed, as David pointed out it should work with a level that moves near GND and Vdc working like a switch. Thanks!

[Gerald D]

Pablo, some people say -12V when they mean the negative side of the 12V supply.

[Richards]

If you visit www.automationdirect.com and click on proximity sensors, you'll be able to download a data sheet that shows the internal workings of their sensors. The 12mm series (AM1-AN-2H model number) has a common data sheet. Compare the 3-wire sensors to a transistor and the two wire sensors to a diode.

I've used a nine-volt battery to test sensors, although a 12VDC to 24VDC power supply is better. All of the sensors that I've tested have worked fine with 9-volts (meaning that they've worked "fine" enough that I could check polarity and sensing distance - I would never use a 9-volt power supply to run an installed sensor.)

[Surfcnc]

Hi Pablo

The term I have used -12V is not the correct one. I believe it is referred to as 0V.
Far better to propagate the correct term than my own homespun understanding.

Ross

[Surfcnc]

Made a few more bits up for the machine.

The Cable Chain Supports
9950

The Car Stoppers
9951

The Z Spider Welding- used a magnetic clamp to hold the motor bracket straight but it still needed trueing once the heat got to it.
9952

Also bent it straight using this technique and cut and welded the small tab.
9953

Finally got the Dust Collector Pipes - Just in Time now Bill Pentz is on the Mechmate forum
9954

And a Ebay Bargain on Cable Glands from the UK
9955

Regards
Ross

[Alan_c]

Nice going Ross

I fear your X cable chan support may be wrong (unless you are using a reverse installation) usually the two supports look the same with the main bracket on the right - only the size differs.

[Surfcnc]

Hi Alan

It seems your careful attention to detail has picked up something my sometimes random approach to things has missed, hehe.

What has happened (on closer inspection) is that the bending has been done the wrong way! Attached is a pic that sheds light on the issue.
Hmm, probably going to need another one of those X cable chain shelf bracket sets bent the "right" way now.
Thanks for your post giving me a chance to get going on the fix that bit quicker.

9956

Regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

Hi All

David has given us the details on how to wire up three PNP NO and one NPN NO proximity sensors without relays at http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2857

I have made an inquiry with the eBay seller "auspicious.e" and while they do not list the PNP sensors for sale on Ebay they were able to obtain them.
Four sensors where around $50 USD delivered to Australia.

My relay to test the proxy wiring as per Sergio's schematic is speeding from literally over the hill at the speed of an aging turtle with a bung leg.
In the coming week I hope to finally see the part and get on with that test.

Regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

It was a clear sunny day, so time to start some of the bigger pieces through the painting process.

I have to say I lingered in the back yard as it was so nice in the sun.
The photos actually make the paint job look far better than it is in the flesh.
9983

9984

The missing/ not ordered / reordered/ forgot to ring you/ we are stocktaking, relay finally appeared after doggedly following up the supplier.
A photo for those who might be inclined to copy the part number or style of relay.
9985

This is the pic that Sergio sent me of his relay he used for his proximity sensor wiring.
The only real difference is that in Italy they have the good sense to put the printing on the relay the right way up or maybe I got the down under version.
All a matter of perspective I suppose !!

9986



I forgot to take a photo of some of the other parts I was painting black and hanging on the very Aussie Hills Hoist (rotary clothes line).
If I remember tomorrow I will include a photo of this alternative use for a domestic appliance.
All the parts are spending a day or so in the sun to set up as the paint is so easily damaged when not properly dried.

Regards
Ross

[Regnar]

Ross, be careful of setting the parts out in the sun. I cant remember it was here or on another forum but I do remember reading that the steel heats up to much in the sun and will boil/bubble the paint off the steel before it can cure.

Wait until you have to read that relay when its mounted on a din rail. You will be happy for that down under version:D

[Surfcnc]

Thanks Russell

KenC offer this advice on the MM forum but I have not found this to be an issue.
As a check though, the current temp in full sun of the metal is 28 deg C, this temp is not high enough to boil the paint.
On a summer day 60+ degrees C would be possible and that may indeed damage the paint film.

The printing on the relay as you rightly point out is for the "peering in to the enclousure from the top" sceanerio.
That is exactly what I will be doing but hopefully not for toooo long, hehe.

Regards
Ross

[Surfcnc]

As promised the parts out to dry ... and a sheet too.

9994

regards
Ross