Construction has started - Melbourne, AU

[Besser]

OK, I'm a Newbie! Yes I want a MechMate, if I know whats best fro me I better start the call for help NOW!

Mech Eng background

Currently building a mini MM 600mmX900mm to get my eye in.

If you like advising people and/or live in Melbourne then drop me a line.

[Doug_Ford]

Wecome aboard Besser.

[domino11]

Welcome Besser!

[Besser]

Hi all, I have been amazed by the support from the MM community so far. In Oz I was thinking I'd be scratching for info and supply lines, not so!

Within 2-3days I have been directed to the local suppliers that have and correctly price many MM parts.

Today I was talking to a local Chris who is looking at 4m lengths of rack.

I may have to apologise to Gerald for not having to weld the stuff (quiet sigh of relief) when my time comes.

[Gerald D]

I may have to apologise to Gerald for not having to weld the stuff (quiet sigh of relief) when my time comes.

Psst, I will let you into a little secret . . . . .
On our latest tables we havn't welded the racks together - we just just left a gap! And of course the pinion doesn't know the difference.

[domino11]

Gerald,
I thought you steel guys just welded everything? :) Although getting the racks in the exact lengths you need would be great too. :)

[Besser]

For some reason I've had it in my mind to build a larger Y axis then X. Probably as future plans could include a boat design so I can just build another table. Well I just figured this also means you need less rack and rail also your X motors will do more work (stop/starts). Yes the gantry will be heavy but with a 4:1 reduction 2x610oz motors will eat it!

My biggest problem is my garage! It's full of junk I love (The wife wants me to toss it all)

OH, Gerald I felt like the cat that got the cream with the rack till you :
Psst, I will let you into a little secret . . . . .
On our latest tables we havn't welded the racks together - we just just left a gap! And of course the pinion doesn't know the difference.

[Besser]

Chasing down parts can be hard. We have a lot of retailers who think they hold a monopoly on the market. One company here sells er20 collets for $25ea. I'm trying to get a local drive supplier to come to the party and he's resisting...why? I dont know.. check this out:

Hello Rob
I think it is more like a big retailer saying if you see a price lower than ours then shows us the advertisement and we will match or better the price Regards XXXX

XXXX,
>
> Thank you for the response (time is money), I was guessing I was going
> to encounter that question. I do recognise supplying this information
> to you, is like you asking a consultant to investigate the market, for free.

Rest assured I will supply that information when you confirm your rate on my request.
Warm Regards,
Robert
The information in this email may apear in the public domain.

To: Rob
Subject: Re: Supply and Availability

Hello
Can you refer us to the websites that you say are cheaper than us
Regards XXXXXX

Hello Sales,
>> On the following catalogue listing:
>> CNC-020
>> CNC-120
>> I have looked at your catalogue and these prices seem to be similar (8% higher) then other market offerings of the same product. Please supply current price and availability.

Still waiting for the reply for pricing! I'm going to try once more then look to our forum for friends who get a good word.

[Besser]

Further to the last listing...... the locaL SUPPLIER seems to not want to supply me. They dont respond to my emails. I pointed them to the MM forum as a suggestion for unfound sales and still getting a blank wall!

Still pushing and getting nothing.... I dont understand why some OZI's are bent on running a business and trying not to sell!

Had the same issue with the Cable Chain! Finally bought it from a guy who had his head screwed on and is making significant volumes of sales (makes up for the lower earn per unit but is going to be the best advertising ever)

[shaper]

Besser

I have had similar issues, don't get why these people can't see the benefit in providing their product with reasonable service at a reasonable price, the motors are a classic example locally the best i could do for the OM motors was ~$3000 :eek: but the singapore suppliers are much better than that but can't supply us (I wonder how rick and the guys in Queensland went getting theirs out of Canada). I gave up and ordered chinese motors from motionking.

Drives are similar I went with gecko, even with the shipping from the US was reasonably priced and arrived within the week :D, I couldn't get this locally.

Sometimes I guess it's best just to let people like this be and go to someone who wants your business.

[jehayes]

Sometimes I guess it's best just to let people like this be and go to someone who wants your business.

As an economist I can tell you that is always the best thing to do.

However, the good news is that those who have preceded us on this path to MechMate glory have already found good suppliers from around the world who do want to do business with us. Enjoy the build!:)

[Besser]

jehayes...I agree but I also want the benefit of after sales service. I supose thats the balance I have to pick!

An update on the mini MM I'm also building: The frame is built and now onto the Y Axis. I do need someone local good at electronics though as I bought a 4 axis controller but the instructions and board markings are in Chinese? Cantonese? not english anyway. It's funny as when I started building this mini cnc I had a different design and as my knowledge of MM grew more and more components started to become MM till now it's full MM principles. The Stepper belt reduction drive is the hardest as I'm using a 4mm 0.5 module belt, it's all getting tiny.

[Besser]

OK still Lurking and Shopping. So my next purchase is steel, this BOM is fun just wondering how much leftovers will be in the corner. Fortunatly my mentor in the MM build Chris is guiding me along.

Made a jig the other day for the Z plate to grind the wheel tracks. A slanted box to sit over the bench grinder with the abrasive wheel jutting through the box. Then I realised how high the bench grinder was:confused: Well some jacking blocks will fix that.

[Besser]

Just an update on the local supplier of motors, they lost my business and with our dollar rocketing, I guess many others. I really am sorry they were so stubborn, I supose their inventory and overdraft will keep growing.
I am now on the cable hunt. Again locals seem to thing copper means gold! I had one lady offer me $9/m, when I asked if she sold much, her response was NO! I can get the same brand out of Singapore for closer to $2/m. All help welcome

[Greolt]

Check these blokes in Melbourne,

http://www.cablesplus.com.au/

Greg

[Besser]

Thanks, already had them on my list, I've asked for a price for the cable on pg 24 of the catalog! Waiting to see the response, I'm hoping it's different to 99% of local guys. Will let you know

[Besser]

Well cable pricing is looking reasonable. Just sorting the dialog on the urethane and PVC sheath.

[Besser]

OK I have a tech question.
DRG M2 10 110 has the X rack at Board+ 200mm
A 6 foot board is 1830mm
Rack normally comes in 2000mm lengths (Australia)
(Can you see it coming?)
Where does the pinion finish on the rack when the stops are hit, is it the last tooth?

[Gerald D]

If your X = 1830, the total movement (between hitting end-stops) is 1930. But, the plans show a screw through the end of the rack, with the screw head being "hittable" by the pinion.

That screw is actually not required if you use half-decent double-sided tape. Or, you could counterbore/countersink that screw. Or, you could cut a step on the end of the rack so that the screw head sits on the lower step and the pinion could roll over if it had to. Personally, we don't use a screw - but a lot of people have doubts on the tape so I added a screw to the plans for comfort. :) (We will talk again if someone's rack comes loose)

[Greolt]

Thanks, already had them on my list, I've asked for a price for the cable on pg 24 of the catalog! Waiting to see the response,
I'm hoping it's different to 99% of local guys. Will let you know
I called in there the other day and found their prices reasonable.

Greg

[Besser]

Greg, I had a large commercial guy get a price from them and I compared it to my own price from them. I was paying 40% more.

Lets just say I will be getting my friend to buy it for me.

[Besser]

Gerald,
Thanks, now I can have a 6' X axis using a 2000mm rack and delete the mechanical end fastening (maybe a little tack weld). I have been reading posts on the rack fastening subject and will go down the path of using "Gorilla Glue" as the underside of the angle iron is mill finish, once cleaned it will offer a good keying for the hydroscopic foaming glue.

[jehayes]

Besser: Please let us know how the Gorilla Glue/Steel works for you. I have been tempted to try that too but am concerned about the possible failure under stress, (also about the inability to keep the rack in place during the curing/foaming stage.

[domino11]

Joe,
How about using a whole bunch of clamps along the edge? I know myself from being into woodworking, I have quite a few laying around. :)

[Gerald D]

Gorilla glue sounds like a lot of effort compared to tape?

[ffej]

Hello Besser. Thanks for the advice. It looks like the costs mount up quickly enough as it is without being ripped off.
Like most people I'd love to do this as a commercial project, if only to cover costs. But at the moment I haven't got any firm ideas of what that would be.
I'm going to start off with an absolute minimum machine (small steppers, threaded rod & nut, wire wrapped around motor shafts, teflon block sliding on rails etc). Then once I know a bit more about the strengths and weaknesses of the various options I'll build a full size unit. I suspect there's a lot involved in the software that I don't know about.
I'm guessing that (to make a business) the machine needs to fit a niche that isn't filled at the moment.
Best of luck. ffej
PS I've tried sending this message a few times over the "private" but it doesn't seem to be going through.

[Besser]

Jeff, your machine spec will have worse accuracy then a MM and lower efficiency. It will be a great opportunity to get your hand in but not a commercial outcome.

Yes I received the message loud and clear (4 times)

[Besser]

Gerald, I was going to vac bag them down. 14.7lbs/in2 clamping is heaps. the glue up is simple. Wipe down both surfaces with a damp cloth run a bead down the middle of either surface, marry together, then suck them together. Walk away and come back in 2 hours to unwrap your finished product. The secret is to use less glue then more glue. It foams microscopically and bonds to the mating surfaces better then it's self.

Well the proof will be in the pudding as they say. I will hope to post pics when I get there.

[Besser]

Hey Guys, some great news. I just secured supply on 4 core cable. After running an estimation spreadsheet and working out cable run requirements I went to a local supplier through a client I know. Prices are within my budget and I was more then happy with supply time and quality. Greg was on the money for supplier, I did find them very flexible (pun intended) on price.

Now a question to all: Does all cable runs need to be shielded?
If I shield the source (VFD, Steppers) and their cable runs, do I need to run shielded on the sensor, estop and computer circuits?

[bradm]

Besser, try a forum search on "shielding", and dig through the threads. The answer is in the "it depends" or the "do as I say, not as I do" kind of category. The belt and suspenders approach is to shield everything, and if it's not significantly expensive for you, it's insurance.

[Richards]

If all cables have a foil shield with a bare drain wire outside the shield, and if all drain wires have ONE end connected to a common ground lug, then you will have the least amount of electrical interference without adding extra parts and pieces.

[Gerald D]

There is a cheap alternative for shielding - - - - create distance between the cables. If you have wide cable carriers, you can get away with running unshielded motor & router cables along one side and then running signal cables about 3" away along the other side. But I don't like the look of wide cable carriers with nearly nothing in them. :)

[Besser]

OK, cable is sorted and filtering will be sufficient I think. Will have all motor drives shielded and the control box mounted to the machine to reduce cable length.

My next big problem is locating the MM. I need space, my garage allows for a 1 foot clearance around the outside of the proposed machine! So to all you MM's in Melbourne, If you have any spare warehouse room, let me know!

[Besser]

Brad, if it's something I know it's insurance! When I was a practicing engineer I would always wonder at the balance in "Factors of Safety" and economical design. I then moves industry and found the true meaning of "Factors of Safety" when I had to confront on a daily basis when the situation has surpassed the FOS.

[Besser]

Yet again I have been confronted with the madness of retail sales in Australia. I have been looking for a steel supplier and sort 3 quotes from companies who had assured me they were the companies to purchase from. One said they had a history in the industry, one specialised in supplying to retail and one was very local ( I could almost hit them with a thrown stone). When the quotes came in, the price from the retail specialist was twice the cost of the others. I called him and suggested they have another look at it as I could source it at half the price. They told me to go away. Well I be placing my ordered from the cheapest supplier who is furthest and does not charge for delivery (amortised in material cost). Funny that the closest one was competitive on steel pricing but charged almost 10% of the total cost for delivery. Looking at my supplier chart for my MM build reveals a tale of make or break. If I had been quoted $14K to build a MM then it would never happen. Yet with a firm resolve to work hard to save the costs of construction I have it at $7K without any degrading of design. I have to thank the MM community for much of the saving and look forward to getting started on the build soon.

[KenC]

We have a joke among my friends,
Double the price and you have a very "special" offer, specially for you :)

Specialist are not always good business person, so, when doing business, its best to stick with business man.

There are companies whom offer no frill services, hence, low selling price, delivery is an additional service in the world of "no-frill" business. They actually expect you to arrange for collection if you really mean to reduce cost... Another rational business strategy to keep the business afloat...

[Besser]

SPIDER PLATE WARNING!!! Just found out some critical build news. The spider plate has etch marks for potential mounting points for the Z plate bearings. The drawing suggests 132mm but in fact it's more like 140mm. I would suggest grinding your Z plate first then marry up the bearings and measure the required hole centres. While this has been noted in other builds it's not on the drawings, so many seem to have had to weld up the holes and redrill that it's an issue.

[Gerald D]

Drawing 10 40 432 D says:

(132[5.2"]) approx - TO SUIT SLIDE & V-ROLLERS

And then there is a thread: Spider Plate Oh-Oh!! (which # mark to drill on?) (http://mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1611)

[ffej]

Hello Besser
I'm in the industry (I build electrical stuff) and have noticed that most businesses (and tradies) are opportunistic, they charge a lot more if they think you're desperate, in a hurry or have nowhere else to go.
Most see retail customers as sheep, ready for shearing.
The only way to get the lower prices and better delivery is to become a long term income stream, then they'll bend over backwards to keep you.
Perhaps a business name and requests for quotations via email would get a better response.

I know this doesn't help. But it may be a consolation that you're not the only one getting this treatment.
Ffej

[KenC]

I agree, it is too easy to advertise yourself as "the sheep" when you use terms written on textbooks or catalog. Invest some time to learn up a few local trade jargon before approaching potential supplier for quotation. portrait as a "player", once they believe you are potential "mainstream" customer, you will get good treatment.
Anyway this is another side of any project undertaking which I enjoy immensely.

[Claudiu]

I can only agree with that.
I also do requests for quotations, not only through the business but I also use a socalled purchase department. After several emails, and requesting certificates of quality, tech. data or security sheets for the products, the vendor has to qualify and that he is eligible for doing business with my company. Then we talk about money with big discounts weather we do procurement as a reseller or producer...

What Ken said about the special price made to friends is absolutely true...

Greetings
Claus
Of course this is not valid if you buy one geckodrive or 10 screws...

[KenC]

My route is slightly different, I'll put on my "small-time-one-man-show-contractor" attire, or wear a collared T-shirt or jump-suit with some company logo printed, with a pair of worn safety boots. Walk into some crowded hardware store & throw a few jargon around and ask for a quote inclusive of delivery, term-cash. the price difference would be within 5% & if it exceeds, that means the jargon were wrongly applied...
Same applies to machine shops, laser cut... etc etc... I don't even need to ask for quantity discount. ;)

[Besser]

Guys you are all showing me I have to haggle my way through for which I have done. What gets my goat up is the short sightedness of over charging. In an era of marketing by referal, there are plenty of companies who dont have favour with me and the dissapointing thing is many are Australian companies.

[Besser]

Have to tell you this one.

Big company selling ply and MDF has show room with "Trade" Price list on counter. I look at list and see their pricing is higher then a chain retail outlet. I ask him to confirm A: they commonly sell to public B: what their best discount price is for 4 sheets. They tell me they always sell to public and I'm lucky to get Trade price even on 4 sheets. I let him know (nicely) his pricing is to high. He doesnt budge, I walk and will always peg them as a "ripoff merchant" I call on another supplier I was referred to 6 years ago and guess what! Their pricing policy still stands. They sell as if they want every customer who walks in to buy from them. The end of story is I saved 32.5%, I wish my bank savings grew at 32.5%

I seem to grumble in this tread some so here is a shout out. Melbourne Australia----- "Tile Importers" -------- bloody sharp pricing every day.

[Besser]

Well Guys I'm now moving to the construction started Phase!

HERE WE GO

[Besser]

OK, Over recent times I have looked, listened, lurked and purchased, Now is the time to build. I will officially cut steel today and start the process. I have had great fun being a virtual MM participant and now I'll get my hands dirty (and bloody)

[ffej]

The trade price is a scam for the retail mugs, for example, I've seen plumbing supplies charged to the tradie, at 90% off the trade price.
Other scams are the free gift at the end of the month, the weekly prize, the 2 for 1 offer, the manufacturers rebate. Go to a trade show and see how often the big door prize is awarded to a favorite customer.
(Yes, I know I'm bitter and cynical it's just that I never win these prizes)

Still it must work in the suppliers favour or they wouldn't do it.

[Besser]

OK a quick update:

BIG thanks to Rick for the lend of his metal circular saw. Sliced the rails to size in 20min. also the base plate edge is 29.7mm from the kerf so it all worked easy!

Big thanks to Chris who turned up the next day will all the rail grinding gear setup ready to go!

Dont Laugh Yet! My control box is a suitcase!

[Claudiu]

Please post some pics of your evolution. :)

[aniljangra]

OK a quick update:
Dont Laugh Yet! My control box is a suitcase!

I am also not able to decide if I post pics of my control box or not, as the maker made the box too big by mistake :)

[KenC]

Besser, Anil,
Like real estate, over sized control box is an asset! You will have cooler temperature, less layout restrictions & luxury of organizing your wiring however you fancy. Last but not the least, you will be smiling when you decided to upgrade your electronics & control.
Merry x'mas

[Sherman McCoy]

In the USA, we always say, "bigger is better". My box is 20"x20"x10". Its big enough, I may strip the MOBO & HDD out of my PC and mount it in the box, strap a screen on top, and just hang the keyboard off the side!

[sailfl]

Krasch,

That is a nice size box but mine (if you are bragging) is 30"x20"x8". I like having a large enough space to work. It is a bit big but there is plenty room and it stays cool with the fan setup like the plans.

I know others put their computer inside the box but I don't like the extra heat in there. My box is at the rear of the table while my computer is at the front, 0,0 of the table.

[Besser]

Ok here are some Photos.

Like I said it's a Breifcase, it is to be moved between several machines pending which will be doing the work. It's half way there.
http://i994.photobucket.com/albums/af63/mrrberger/MMControl001.jpg

This is the plug outs for drives, usb, 1x220VAC I have another 15 pins in this plugset free.
http://i994.photobucket.com/albums/af63/mrrberger/MMControl002.jpg

Other side is the Power in, 3x220VAC out from VFD, USB
http://i994.photobucket.com/albums/af63/mrrberger/MMControl004.jpg

Front Panel, need more buttons and custom filter sys
http://i994.photobucket.com/albums/af63/mrrberger/MMControl003.jpg

THE GUTS! Still needs SS+BOB, wiring, Baffeling for air flow and shielding
http://i994.photobucket.com/albums/af63/mrrberger/MMControl006.jpg
http://i994.photobucket.com/albums/af63/mrrberger/MMControl005.jpg

Now you can Laugh!

[KenC]

Love it!

[jessyjames]

Pretty neat indeed. I have only one suggestion.... "Do not bring that with you on an airplane".. :eek:

It could get a little hairy for you buddy. :)

GJ

[Claudiu]

Great design, recycling is everything...:)

[Besser]

Yeah a plane trip may be trouble....the flux capacitor.... may interfere with the avionics.

Claus: I am recycling as much as possible and using common parts as well.

Coolant pump and radiator, air filter will be automotive "just something I had lying around"
Table Legs:"just something I had lying around"
Table Feet: "just something I had lying around"
Control Boxes:"just something I had lying around"
Sensors: "just something I had lying around" reversing sensors (will be fun configuring them)
Springs:"just something I had lying around" old mattress base springs
Turnbuckles for springs: "just something I had lying around"

The list goes on...
Sometimes I get more enjoyment thinking laterally then spending cash (sometimes)

[sailfl]

Besser,

You make you MM so it will fit in a large suite case????

Interesting idea.

[Besser]

Don't know if I have a 15foot by 7foot case hanging around! I'd have to put the handles on the bottom.

[gmcclure]

Hi Besser,

How is it going. If you havent obtained ER collets yet, I get them shipped in from Hong Long, great supplier and cheap quality product.

Statrt on 2 MMs yesterday, construction taking place in Mates fctory in Bayswater.

regards

Graeme

[Besser]

Been to long between drinks! well had my head down in the business. Well started again on the MM. My Two head aches:
1: Deviating from design (there is a reason)
2: Working with thicker frame material (it weighs so much)

Well the intention is to have the MM multi purpose and I have organised a custom 100mm deep waterbath for the table. This will facilitate the plasma cutter but also necessitates a solid frame. I now have to move the table around with the forklift! grrr

As the working area is 12'x6' (please dont call it 3600x1800 to many MDF experts have already tried that one out on me) with the gantry bridging the 12', every thing is BIG.

I'm looking forward to getting this finished!

[giz]

wow! I'd love to see some photos of that beast

[gmcclure]

Quick heelo to see how you are getting on with the MM

Graeme