Belt reduction installed, cutting metals - Big Lake, MN

[chopper]

here are a few pics of my machine,
I do not have the logos applied yet, since I am a sign guy I guess it mat take
awhile to get those made, these are right after I finished the machine
no new transmissions yet, Gerald if this is the wrong place for this sorry, please move...//chopper

[PEU]

Very Nice, please PLEASE more photos!

IE vacuum system, the machine, non standard details, work done, etc. Looks very clean!

[Gerald D]

Great attention to detail!

A bit worried about your use of panel/bulkhead connectors - they are vulnerable to being bumped and breaking off. For example, where your parallel cable enters the control box; that could be knocked off with a broom, or kicked.

[javeria]

chopper more or vacuum clamping please ....otherwise a very nice build!

[Alan_c]

It's a beaut, never mind that its not blue, great neat job on the wiring and that vacuum table demands further details (what material, vacuum pump etc...)

Your legs look a bit small, do you not get movement or vibration when it's working?

[Gerald D]

Alan, he has nice big braces on those legs (see very top, left) of top pic, dividing the end frames into "triangulated" trusses, so the weight of the leg itself is not so important. It all depends on an end view of the "truss".

Yeah, it is actually scary to see how much these things can shake and vibrate, in the face of a lot of people trying to cut weight! :)

[sailfl]

Chopper,

More details on your vacuum hold down system.

The machine looks great. Congratulations.

[Kobus_Joubert]

Did you cut the top of your table for the vacuum with the machine ?
Will you put a sacrifice board on top of that nice pattern, or how does it work ?

[sailfl]

Kobus,

The vacuum will suck through the MDF board. The pattern in the vacuum board helps with the holding. It looks like he has 5 zones?

[Greg J]

Wow, nice work !!

Look forward to some pic's of the vacuum system. :)

[jhiggins7]

Chopper,

Nice build, great pictures (they show the detail very nicely).

I too am interested in the vacuum hold-down. I've acquired a vacuum blower pump, but haven't constructed the hold-down yet. I too would appreciate more details on your hold-down design. What type and size vacuum are you using? Also, how well does it work?

[Gerald D]

I think that hold-down had its origins over here (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/show.cgi?tpc=28&post=2177#POST2177).

(Havn't seen a similar system that pre-dated my proposal then, might have made some money off a patent :confused::))

[Kobus_Joubert]

Thanks Nils, I heard that the vacuum can be sucked through low density MDF from Marius, but I did not believe him...now you have confirmed it. What I heard is that you trim the top and bottom layer off the mdf....then is sucks like an Electrolux..:D

[J.R. Hatcher]

Kobus I do cut away the surface of both sides first, but I saw a lifting system where the vacuum had to be turned down so it wouldn't pick up several sheets of 4' X 8' X 3/4" mdf at once.

[Doug_Ford]

Chopper,

Nice work. Show us your dust collection system too.

I'm wondering how many other guys have built MMs and haven't posted pics or even mentioned them on this forum.

[domino11]

Chopper,
Looks like a top notch build. You should be very proud. :)

[servant74]

Chopper,
What blower/vacuum system do you use for your hold down? I went to a ShopBot conference, and there were folks doing everything from 10HP regenerative blowers to 'whole house' vacuum units, to little shopvac's. All have their place, and are at different places on the the price/performance/volume scales.

[chopper]

there seems to be a lot of interest in the vacuum system,
that is a work in progress, I have it working but would like to improve it....
I really don't like to give away all my secrets, but the blower I am using was given to me from a friend who had one laying around, the problem I have is I need to upgrade the electric motor that powers the unit the duty cycle on it is short and will trip the thermal protection if run for awhile and quite frankly it has too much power it will pull 10 inches of vacuum on the table, the draw back is it is very noisy system,
it will actually hold the parts that I machine through 1 sheet of trupan and 1 sheet of mdf,stacked on one another... I machined or skinned the sheet of trupan, to allow better air flow
but in hind sight I don't think is was necessary, the mdf was not skinned
most of the time I use the T rails to hold the parts down and use the vacuum when I have to
ok, if you have to know it is a roots blower
//chopper

[chopper]

Doug,
I do not have a dust collection system as of yet,
I have thought about it but really haven't had a need for it yet....
most of the stuff that I do is plastic or aluminum,
so at this point dust is not a problem, we are in the process of building a plasma cutter, and when that is finished I think we will start on the dust collection, probably a unit that will work for both machines, I am also interested in seeing if the two machines will work side by side with out having interference from one another, I think the plasma may give off a lot of electrical noise and interfere with the router...
//chopper

[chopper]

Kobus,
you would be correct, the machine was used to cut the patterns and the T slots into the table, also the holes to run the pipes in from the bottom also were done with the machine, I kinda got the idea from the cnc zone I seen a few done like this there,
I have 4 zones on the machine two towards the front of the machine covering aprox 2 foot square each the third covering 2X4 feet and the fourth covering 4x4 area, the fifth pipe goes to the blower under the table....the problem with the roots blower is it pulls so hard you really can't shut the zones you are not using off, I am working on a way to control this better, (I am thinking about a vacuum valve that bleeds off when it reaches a certain level of vacuum) but it is not on the front burner right now, I have a few other improvements ahead of that...
//chopper

[Doug_Ford]

Chopper,

Are you using the MM design as the basis for your plasma cutter? If Gerald doesn't mind, could you document it on this website? I think there are other guys that are interested in having a plasma cutter too. I know I am.

[chopper]

Doug,
the plasma cutter is loosely based on the mechmate,
we will be using the rail system for the gantry and some other similar features,
the plasma cutter is my brothers project, I will take a few pics when it gets a little further along, but it isn't on the front burner right now either so it may be awhile
//chopper

[Greg J]

I think that hold-down had its origins over here (http://www.talkshopbot.com/forum/show.cgi?tpc=28&post=2177#POST2177).




Maybe it's me, but that link is good reading. There is a major weather system in my area (SE NM), so I've printed the link and headed to bed with a flashlight. :)

[chopper]

here are some pics of my machine as requested...//chopper

[chopper]

here are a few more pictures of the rails and the router..//chopper

[jhiggins7]

Looking good, Chopper. Nice work!

[Richards]

Chopper,

Thanks for posting those photos!

[smreish]

Chopper,
Nice work - as always. I even noticed the nice grade 5 and above fasteners on the machine.
Sean

[buibui]

Great looking machine, Chopper. I like how you mounted the eccentrics on the z-plate...I take it that's to keep one side vertical and only require adjustment on the other?

I hacked my spider plate up due to mistakes during my build (had to reweld and redrill my holes), so alignment is difficult. I may need to incorporate your idea if I re-do my z-assembly.

[bradyaero]

very nice looking MM!

[chopper]

[QUOTE=buibui;31945]Great looking machine, Chopper. I like how you mounted the eccentrics on the z-plate...I take it that's to keep one side vertical and only require adjustment on the other?

good eyes, you are exactly correct, I thought it to be to much screwing around to adjust it square and made the top left and bottom left solid and every thing else adjusts to them makes setting up the Z simple, you just have to make sure that you can shim the spider to square it up if necessary...
//chopper

[javeria]

And that's a lot of washers (shims)- even I have it on mine!

[chopper]

my, bro has a metal fab shop and he needs some 304 stainless cut, and he wanted to know if I could do that for him on the MM, My reply was that a friend of mine just told me about these stainless bits for high speed machining
so we made a trip to the machine shop supply store and found the bits we were looking for, took them back to the shop and tried to cut stainless steel
and much to my surprise it worked this is 304 stainless 1/16 of an inch thick
it was cut as a test to see if it would work, so far so good.... if this works out it will save a lot of work and time shipping them out to get cut.
//chopper

[lunaj76]

Chopper,

What's next steel? Great job!

[Robert M]

Tell us more about this bit ?
Robert ;)

[chopper]

Justin,
been there done that.............1/8 mild steel with very little machine marks, better than I could get off of my bro's mill
these bits are amazing, I just turned my MM into a 4 foot by 8 foot cnc mill

[chopper]

Tell us more about this bit ?
Robert ;)
these bits are for the cnc machine world like a haas or equivalent,
also onsrud makes some look up there 83-300 series www.onsrud.com
feeds and speed are listed there, I want to throw out a disclaimer here I have done quite a few things to make sure my machine is tight... and backlash free,
without getting into a pissin' match I just want you to know that these cuts may not be accomplished with out the proper modifications to your machine excessive backlash may cause adverse effects like bit breakage etc.
//chopper

[Robert M]

Thanks for this part #
Amicalement, Robert ;)

[chopper]

here are some more pictures. these are MM motor plates, kinda funny a MM making a MM,
these are .250 thick and are really smooth these pics are blown up a bit, you can reference to the quarter, I do not know how you can not believe that the 4 to 1 belt drives do not make a difference after seeing these cuts. I am getting better cuts in steel than most of you can get in wood,
//chopper

[Claudiu]

Chopper,

excellent cut quality!
Really amazing.

It`s good to know, that with the right tooltip we can even work alu and steel!
Great machine.

Good day

[J.R. Hatcher]

Chopper could you show a picture with the entire part? How long did it take to cut? What did you use for coolant? Very cool stuff, thanks.

[chopper]

Chopper could you show a picture with the entire part? How long did it take to cut? What did you use for coolant? Very cool stuff, thanks.

J.R.,
here is a picture of the complete part, as far as coolant I used a stream of air,
and a little silicone lube once in a while, the air seamed to make the biggest difference, I didn't time it but as I recall it took around an hour to cut each piece, but some of that was wasted screwing down the parts and cutting air because I wrote the program a little deeper than the part, so it could have been done faster, but I wasn't in a hurry just wanted to see if it could be done.
//chopper

[J.R. Hatcher]

I'm amazed!! Good job.

[domino11]

Wow, those look really good. :)

[KenC]

Chopper,
Great stuff! Love you work. I'll be using your 4:1 Belt reduction for my build.
A few stupid questions, hope you can help clear my misery
1) You are using MDF as spoil board while cutting metal (AL & Steel)?
2) You use coolant for your cuts?
3) How to keep the MDF happy while applying coolant?

[Rad Racer]

Excellent Job! The MechMate is certainly versatile.

[chopper]

Chopper,
Great stuff! Love you work. I'll be using your 4:1 Belt reduction for my build.
A few stupid questions, hope you can help clear my misery
1) You are using MDF as spoil board while cutting metal (AL & Steel)?
2) You use coolant for your cuts?
3) How to keep the MDF happy while applying coolant?

Ken,
1) yes
2) on aluminum I do not use coolant, just a little air to keep the chips out of the cutting area, on the steel I used some silicone spray lube and air, mostly air, but if I were to cut it all the time I would set up some type of coolant system for the steel.
3) if you were to use coolant while cutting you would need to change out the table top to a substrate that would not be affected by the coolant like a plastic or aluminum, I am sure there are other types of material that could be used, my thought is to set up a tray to put on top of the table to catch the coolant when I need to use coolant, and remove when I do not ( so the MDF would be protected) ...
but I do not see myself using the MM to cut steel to often this was just a test to see if it could be done, so I haven't put a lot of thought into the coolant as of yet..no question is a stupid one.if you have more just ask..
//chopper

[chopper]

Excellent Job! The MechMate is certainly versatile.

thanks Wayne,
I was enjoying your posts on the 4th axes indexer you put on your machine very cool, what type of head are you using for the indexer?
//chopper

[Robert M]

Even if it was not the MechMate destiny nor original concept, I’m somehow certain it is a « velour » to Gerald seeing that his DIY, low-cost no frill simple yet robust work horse can “ballet” dance on those metal, alu, and other material than plain sheet goods !
Robert ;)

[Gerald D]

Chopper, can you confirm that you are still using a router, and not a spindle, for these cuts. There is often talk about a spindle giving a better finish than a router . . . . . I can't see that you can get much better than that! :)

Also, your z-axis is not very much modified, compared to the standard drawings . . . . this is another part where some believe that the basic MM design is weak. Would you think that z-axis mods are essential for basic wood board cutting?

[chopper]

Gerald,
yes I am using a router it is a Milwaukee 5625 the only thing I have done to the the router is put new bearings in it ( much higher quality)
the modifications on the Z are minimal, the only difference on the Z is I welded it instead of bolting it, however, the spider is also modified ( I guess I consider that part of the Z ) and most of the modification on the spider is to make the squaring easier, and the bars that space the V wheels out are welded to the spider ( this really stiffened it up ), I think for some reason the welding makes the parts stiffer since bolts can move and welds cannot, so basically all the parts become one so to speak..

as far as it being necessary for wood board cutting is a good question.
I think the machine is under more stress from wood cutting than metal cutting, with metal I am limited to what the bit can do the machine is way more capable than the bit, on wood the same is true but at much higher speeds and feeds and depth of cut which can cause some to over drive their machine, the mods on the spider were needed to space out the V wheels anyway, so why not do it. so I guess that was a long yes...

I have thought about modifying the spider and Z assembly and I may some day, but what I have works..

I also wanted to add the only reason that I want to go to a spindle is not for cut quality, what I really want is the flexibility of different collet sizes right now I am limited to 1/4 or 1/2 inch size tooling, which so far has not been a big issue, and the er collet system is much better than what Milwaukee uses,
I have designed a collet system for the router but I decided that by the time I finished the proto-type I could have bought a spindle..
//chopper

[liaoh75]

Hi Chopper,

That was the exact reason I finally went with a spindle - collet size. I do a lot of work with acrylic and flame polishing and I now have a lot more bit selection. I no longer have to use a 3mm 0-flute with a 6mm shank (very expensive). I can just use a 3mm collet with a 3mm bit (very cheap - so cheap, I use a new bit for almost every job.

May I ask about your vacuum hold down system. I'm looking into a 10HP roots blower. You mentioned that you felt your vacuum was too strong? Can you tell me a little more about why do think this is so? I'm in Taiwan and there is a lot of industry here and when people talk about vacuum hold down, they all point point to this particular product. It pulls a staggering 55mm of mercury at a frightening cfm. I'm new to vacuum hold down and you have a pretty good setup. Can you give me some advice as to the plenum material (I'm thinking about using 3/4" PVC, bleeder (MDF) , or whatever else you can advise.

I'm still a little confused about the bleeder board. Why not just put what you cut directly on the plenum grid?

Sorry about so many questions but, if I'm spending almost $2000 for a 10HP roots blower, I just want to make sure I'm making the right decisions and understand what I'm doing.

Also, I've looked into your belt drive design and I can actually make a set very cheaply in Taiwan. Good design, simple and effective.

Thank you and sorry to inundate you with so many questions.

David

[Richards]

David,

If you use a vacuum mask between the plenum and the part being cut, you don't need a bleeder board. There are times when I use that method, but it requires the time, effort and expense of making a mask. (The mask is cut so that any through-cuts on the specific part do not have a direct "hole" to the plenum, which would cause the vacuum seal to immediately fail. When I cut a vacuum mask, I usually add AllStar gasket tape around the holes in the mask to give a little extra insurance against vacuum leaks.)

By using a mask and a GAST vacuum pump, I've cut parts as small as 2-1/2 inches square. With a normal bleeder board and two FEIN vacuums, I hesitate to cut anything smaller that 24-inches square without leaving a "skin". Others have had better results than I have, but they are usually at a lower altitude. (The Salt Lake City, area is about 4,500 feet above sea-level.)

[dragonfinder1]

"I also wanted to add the only reason that I want to go to a spindle is not for cut quality, what I really want is the flexibility of different collet sizes right now I am limited to 1/4 or 1/2 inch size tooling, which so far has not been a big issue, and the er collet system is much better than what Milwaukee uses,
I have designed a collet system for the router but I decided that by the time I finished the proto-type I could have bought a spindle..
//chopper"

Chopper

Milwaukee makes a collet for 3/8" tooling. P# 48-66-1000. I use one in my 5625-20 router. It's not listed for that router but it looks identical, and as far as I can tell it measures the same. I use regular milling tooling in wood, that allows me more flexibility.

Dave

[dragonfinder1]

If you get that collet, you will need a collet nut as well. p# 44-40-0095.

You can get both from Milwaukee tools and Amazon.

M.T. collet $26.45, nut $3.60 total $30.05

Amazon collet $24.04, nut $16.26 total $40.30.

Amazon probably has free shipping on these items.

Unless you live close to a Milwaukee distribution center, you'll have to pay shipping. So it'll be close to the same.

Dave

[chopper]

If you get that collet, you will need a collet nut as well. p# 44-40-0095.

You can get both from Milwaukee tools and Amazon.

M.T. collet $26.45, nut $3.60 total $30.05

Amazon collet $24.04, nut $16.26 total $40.30.

Amazon probably has free shipping on these items.

Unless you live close to a Milwaukee distribution center, you'll have to pay shipping. So it'll be close to the same.

Dave
Thanks Dave, I will check into this it, do they have the same taper as the 5625 collets?
thanks//chopper

[chopper]

Hi Chopper,

That was the exact reason I finally went with a spindle - collet size. I do a lot of work with acrylic and flame polishing and I now have a lot more bit selection. I no longer have to use a 3mm 0-flute with a 6mm shank (very expensive). I can just use a 3mm collet with a 3mm bit (very cheap - so cheap, I use a new bit for almost every job.

May I ask about your vacuum hold down system. I'm looking into a 10HP roots blower. You mentioned that you felt your vacuum was too strong? Can you tell me a little more about why do think this is so? I'm in Taiwan and there is a lot of industry here and when people talk about vacuum hold down, they all point point to this particular product. It pulls a staggering 55mm of mercury at a frightening cfm. I'm new to vacuum hold down and you have a pretty good setup. Can you give me some advice as to the plenum material (I'm thinking about using 3/4" PVC, bleeder (MDF) , or whatever else you can advise.

I'm still a little confused about the bleeder board. Why not just put what you cut directly on the plenum grid?

Sorry about so many questions but, if I'm spending almost $2000 for a 10HP roots blower, I just want to make sure I'm making the right decisions and understand what I'm doing.

Also, I've looked into your belt drive design and I can actually make a set very cheaply in Taiwan. Good design, simple and effective.

Thank you and sorry to inundate you with so many questions.

David

David,
I am no expert with vacuum hold down, my reason for saying to much vacuum is more a limitation of my blower than there really being to much vacuum, my blower is an old army surplus air defense siren, and the duty cycle is really short about 15 minutes, and at that point it will blow the thermal protection on the motor, I need to upgrade it to a motor with a 100% duty cycle, also it depends on how I use my table if I have a small part to hold down and I only apply vacuum to one zone I will blow the thermal protection much faster since the blower has to work a lot harder, so when I do this I bleed off the vacuum through some of the non covered zones, so in reality I do not think there is to much vacuum..( I believe at the time I meant it sarcastically)

I use mdf for the plenum material on mine but in doing so you need to seal it to prevent vacuum loss, I have seen them made from pvc and aluminum,
the pvc I believe would be a great choice since it is impervious to moisture
and easy to machine, now my understanding of the purpose of the bleeder board (mine is trupan, light mdf ) is it acts as a spoil board so you do not cut up your expensive pvc plenum, but more importantly it spreads out the pull of the vacuum more evenly over the entire area of the zones being used, and if you cut all the way through your material down to the spoil board it slows down the leakage of vacuum so your parts are less likely to fly off, if you were directly on the plenum and you cut all the way through
it would be hard to produce enough vacuum to hold the parts in place since the vacuum loss would be great.(unless you did like Mike Richards suggested)

I also want you to know that the roots blowers are great for this application
but they are also very noisy so be prepared for the noise and the harder they pull the louder they get, so you can tell how good your vacuum is by the sound of your blower..
and thanks for the compliment on the belt drives, if this does not answer your questions, or raises new ones please ask I will answer to the best of my ability..
//chopper

[dragonfinder1]

Chopper

All three collets appear to be the same. They all fit the same collet nut, they are all the same height ( length ) and they are all the same diameter at the top end and they all hold the tool securely. For my money, they are the same.

On the CNC Zone others are using them as well with success.

Changing tools, sometimes three maybe four times during the job is a real pain, and once the MM starts to make an income, I'll try to justify an ATC set up.

I slid the MechMate through the funding officer, but to ask for $4000 to $9000 to make life easier on me won't be as easy until I have some real work.

Dave

[chopper]

Dave thanks for the info....
by chance do you know what model router the collets are for?
I am also looking for an 1/8 inch collet
//chopper

[dragonfinder1]

The 3/8" collet is for model # 5660 and 5680, I haven't looked for an 1/8" collet.

If you are going to drill, then you might consider a Jacobs drill chuck for a milling machine. You could find one with a 1/2" straight arbor and use your 1/2" collet. You would have to turn you router to it's slowest speed.

Dave

[dragonfinder1]

Here's another suggestion on the 1/8" collets. Here's a link to a shopbot guy that might have a solution for you if you are using engraving tooling. Scroll to the bottom, it's the last article.

http://www.shopbottools.com/BradysTricks.htm

Here's another option.

http://www.rlspellmanmfg.com/index_bushings.html

Dave

[chopper]

Dave, thanks again
//chopper