MotionKing motors and controllers [Archive]

Kim Mortensen

Tue 30 January 2007, 23:44

To Gerald...

I have just recieved my second email from motionking. The price for that version of their stepper is a meer $42 a pc... This is just getting better and better... For a price of $366 I can have 4 steppers delivered right to my doorstep.

This is extremely cheap.

And to Bob, I can see you live in the states, I live in little old Denmark in Europe so this would be of little help to you if I buy some home of these... The shipping costs from Denmark is not that much smaller than the one you would get when you order them yourself... Sorry

Ohhh, by the way guys, have you noticed that the price for the machine just went down $434 for me by buying these steppers instead of the Oriental ones... :-)

Kim

Mike Richards

Wed 31 January 2007, 07:04

I'm not trying to speak against Motionking, since I have no experience with their motors. However, I have found a great deal of difference between other brands of motors. In my experience, Oriental Motors makes an excellent, high quality motor that works very well with Gecko stepper drivers. Some other brands work, but not nearly as smoothly.

Has anyone done a side-by-side comparison?

Kim Mortensen

Wed 31 January 2007, 08:20

I don't think anyone has tested them side by side. but I'll let you all know how they look, feel and most importantly drives when I have them installed later this year...

Has anyone consulted with geckodrive if they have tested the motors from motionking.???

Gerald_D

Wed 31 January 2007, 08:51

Yes, 5 minutes ago :-)

Here is a previous report on a Chinese motor by Geckodrives: http://s120220635.onlinehome.us/stepper-motors.asp

Kim Mortensen

Wed 31 January 2007, 08:57

Gerald. I have also asked Geckodrive that very same question.. hehe

So We will se what Mariss comes up with of answers....

But the report there shows good quality already from china.. Looking forward to getting hiw answer soon...

Kim Mortensen

Wed 31 January 2007, 20:21

Ok, it seems like the Chinese people can't use a calculator... The Final price for 4 steppers and P&P is $408 to Denmark. But stille way cheaper than 4 Orientals... Actualle more than $400 +P&P Cheaper..... So it's cuite a saving on these.

I have gotten an E-mail from Mariss though, he seems to think it would be the wrong one for the gecko..
He would rather use the 34HS9801 or the 34HS9802 instead...

I don't think this would have any impact on the Mechmate as the Holding torque is the same. But what do you think Gerald..???

Gerald_D

Wed 31 January 2007, 21:45

Hey, I really don't know anything about stepper motors - go with what Mariss is advising you.

John Fredriksen

Thu 01 February 2007, 06:43

FYI on prices to the USA.

FOB Shanghai prices of 34HS5803 are as below:
$57.00/pcs, if qty is less than 10pcs/lot.
$55.00/pcs, if qty is 11-50pcs/lot.
$53.50/pcs, if qty is 51-100pcs/lot.

If you want to order 4pcs, then the cost is listed as below:
34HS5803, $57.00/pcs, 4pcs -------------- $228.00
TNT Express Cost ----------------------------- $380.00
Total ------------------------------------------------- $608.00

Bob Cole

Thu 01 February 2007, 12:51

I got a similar responce from MotionKing regarding the shipping cost and prices on motors. Is anyone aware of a LESS EXPENSIVE way to get motors to the US? I am ready and willing to be a redistibution point if we could get a decent order for motors together. I would be willing to purchase 8 motors of the 34HS9803 variety myself to kick this off. Similar to the way the laser cut parts where set up. If anyone is interested let's get going.

Regards, Bob C

Bob Cole

Thu 01 February 2007, 13:34

Just another thought on the motor purchase options. What if we placed ONE large order {all motors prepaid through myself or someone who would be willing} and had MotorKing make arrangements for drop shipping each order to the respective U.S.A. location? I am sure with a respectable order they might be inclined to help work out the shipping details. Another option, rather than air shipping, perhaps they could send by ship freight to a West coast secondary shipping location. Like UPS, or DHL and if MotorKing had smaller parcels pre labled inside of a larger container, then the secondary shipper could open the container, and distribute the pre labeled packages?
Would that work?

Bob C.

fabrica

Thu 01 February 2007, 20:24

Have you people checked the Air Freight charges from China to U.S.A. It cannot amount to more than US 3.00 per Kg. The shipment time cannot be more than 3 days. Also check the EMS rates (US Postal).

Below given is the link to China EMS service. Get Motionking to follow details in this link.

http://220.194.34.2/ems/English/fw15.jsp

Gerald_D

Thu 01 February 2007, 22:00

A discussion specific to Motionking is overwhelming the general motor selection thread - here is thread just for Motionking.....

John Fredriksen

Fri 02 February 2007, 08:13

I got a quote for low priority air from UPS for $280 for 20Kg

For my application I am leaning strongly towards the OM 3.6 When I am ready to order motors, if the Motionkings have passed Mechmate testing, I would be tempted

Hugo Carradini

Mon 05 February 2007, 18:15

In case I decide to go for the Motionking 34HS9801 then ¿Wat would it be the more affordable option for my power supply? ¿3 separate transformer? Any comment will be appreciate.
By the way, Motionking people respond very quick to questions.

Gerald_D

Mon 05 February 2007, 18:29

Hugo the power supply does not drive the motor directly. You need a "drive" or "driver" between the power supply and the motor. I have been recommending Gecko 202 drivers, but others are also possible. Somebody thought of MotionKing drivers which need a different power supply to Geckos.

So, to answer your question correctly, you need to tell me which drivers you plan to use for your MotionKing motors.

Yes, I understand that the MotionKing sales people are very quick - how fast are the support people? http://www.mechmate.com/Forum/clipart/wink.gif

Hugo Carradini

Mon 05 February 2007, 18:41

Gerald I want to use the Vampire from Geckos .
And you are right. Selling is ease but suporting......another story

Gerald_D

Mon 05 February 2007, 22:23

Then the answer to your question is easy, only 1 (one) power supply (http://www.mechmate.com/Forum/messages/17/670.html) to drive all four "Vampires" (Geckodrives G203V).

The 34HS9801 motor current (and therefore heating) is higher than what I am used to. You need to calculate (http://www.mechmate.com/Forum/messages/17/685.html) the power supply size (I guess 500VA)

Gerald_D

Mon 05 February 2007, 22:24

Part of data sheet (http://www.motionking.com/show_products_detail.asp?ID=12&fenlei_ID=2):

http://www.mechmate.com/Forum/messages/15/3331.gif

Gerald_D

Mon 05 February 2007, 23:56

To find the rated Voltage rating of these motors, multiply the Resistance by the rated Current...

The 34HS9801 has a rated voltage of 4.0 X 0.98 = 3.9V

The 34HS9802 has a rated voltage of 5.0 X 0.55 = 2.75V

But, those are the UNIpolar ratings. These are 8-wire motors, so you can wire them:
- UNIpolar (use half the motor)
- BIpolar series (UNIvoltage X 1.4 and UNIcurrent ÷ 1.4)
- BIpolar parallel(UNIvoltage ÷ 1.4 and UNIcurrent X 1.4)

Makes you go crazy! Nobody agrees on the best way to connect them for a CNC router - it depends on how fast the motor has to work. But for a router, the motors have to work fast and slow, so I end up with the middle choice, UNIpolar. That means you only connect 4 of the 8 wires. The wiring is easier, and you know you have a second chance if you burn half the motor! http://www.mechmate.com/Forum/clipart/happy.gif

Hugo Carradini

Tue 06 February 2007, 15:08

Gerald I hate to sound like a fool ,but for me the electronics is like French , just know few words, does not mean I wont learn but know I need to know what to buy. I will go just like your design goes except for the motors. I will use the 34HS9801 unipolar mode. ¿Can you please tell me what transformer, capacitor and rectifier I need to get this going properly? I will have a French teacher (technician) taking care i don't blow up in the process.
Thanks for yor invaluable time.

Hugo Carradini

Tue 06 February 2007, 16:21

Sorry I was to exited I guess and didn't read carefully your answer before.
Regards

Hugo Carradini

Tue 06 February 2007, 19:37

KL- 3815 $129
Unregulated Power Supply, 500 W, 38VDC/15A, 120VAC or 230VAC
This unit includes 500VA toroidal transformer, 2 of 10000uF 40V capacitors,
25A 600V bridge rectify, and chassis
Note: The transformer is CE certified
I think I am going for this option. Is sell by http://www.kelinginc.net/SwitchingPowerSupply.html

Gerald_D

Tue 06 February 2007, 22:13

Hi Hugo, you are not sounding like a fool at all! You are thinking about this very carefully, until late into the night. I am impressed!

The 500VA sounds okay, but I am a bit worried about the 38V. Most people seem to go for 50V or more.

However, you must understand that my experience on this is very low. Please ask some more people and get more opinions. (I will agree that you have selected the best option from Keling, but maybe there are other suppliers - your French technician should be able to build one from basics, but be careful of the French flair for "Viva la difference!" http://www.mechmate.com/Forum/clipart/happy.gif)

Gerald_D

Wed 07 February 2007, 00:24

I am starting to wonder why the 34HS980* motors are produced with 3 current ratings all producing the same holding torque....? My experience is with a motor of the similar size (millimeters) and holding torque, but only needing 2 Amp. That is why I can use a 300VA power supply at 75V. Mariss has suggested the higher current versions and I guess the only reason for this is that such motors can produce higher torque at higher speeds. Higher current means bigger power supplies and more heat. Somewhere we have to find a balance...... (It will be useful to see graphs of speed vs. torque for the MotionKing motors)

I think my "small" 2 Amp motors were selected in the year 2000 when 2 Amp drivers were available at good prices. At that time there were no economical drivers above 2 Amp. Mariss (and others) have changed that situation to make bigger drivers available and they promote to use higher current motors, which will give benefits (torque at high speed) and negatives (bigger power supply, more heat).

Hugo Carradini

Wed 07 February 2007, 13:28

Gerald I am going to something bigger because a had and Engineer analyze my motors and he suggested transformer 970 VA 43 VAC so I decide to go for
KL- 6515 Specification: $199/pcs
Unregulated Power Supply 1000W, 65VDC/15A , Input: 120VAC or 230VAC,
Open Flame Construction
there are 2 regulated outputs 5Vdc and 12Vdc at 1A.
1pcs 1000VA toroid transformer, 2 of 10000uF 80V capacitors, 25A 600V
bridge rectify, 5V and 12V at 1A regulator board
Note: The transformer is CE certified http://www.kelinginc.net/SwitchingPowerSupply.html
It is already ensambled and with the money I am going to earn......no problem.
And you are right, I spend a lot off time, this is a real addiction jaja.
Regards

Gerald_D

Wed 07 February 2007, 22:30

Hugo, that is a much safer choice for the high-amperage motors. I am really hoping that when you cut wood you won't need all that much power. In fact, you should not need so much power unless you are driving a very big cutter at very high speed through very thick wood!

Most of the ShopBot guys have 1 to 2 Amp motors and 300VA power supplies. The danger of installing too much power is heat. We have to remove heat in a place where we have lots of dirt in the air. On my MechMate I have been very successful with a completely sealed control box that does not need to breathe air from the outside - that concept (and box size) will probably be okay up to 500VA. But for 1000VA you will neither either a bigger box or start breathing air through the box (filters + maintenance).

When you have everything running, you will have the luxury of being able to set lower currents and tell us if you are still cutting wood okay. We will all learn from this and possibly select smaller power supplies.

(The Keling guys have a small spelling mistake: open-flame should be open-frame. We don't want open-flames! http://www.mechmate.com/Forum/clipart/happy.gif)

Hugo Carradini

Thu 08 February 2007, 17:09

Gerald I am glad for your advise. I have being thinking that will be a mistake doing something different with my first machine. I am planing in having success in this first project sow I guess I will make the experiments in the second machine. What I really want to begin with is a machine to work properly making cabinets and basic furniture using MDF and similar materials at a decent speed with a decent finish, sow I will keep the basics just as they are . I will be in the list waiting for some one else tell us his experience with bigger motors.
Saludos

Gerald_D

Thu 08 February 2007, 21:48

Hugo, what type of "cutter" are you planning to put in your first machine?
-1. Router (Milwaukee, Makita, Bosch, etc.), or
-2. Spindle (Colombo, Perske, Fimec, HSD, etc.)?

Hugo Carradini

Fri 09 February 2007, 11:21

I been reading you seem to have a preference for Milwukee when people talk about routers so I migth go for that one unless you have a diferent sugestion. I would like to use a spindle but semms to be more complicate to put toguether¿What do you think about that?

Gerald_D

Fri 09 February 2007, 12:01

The reason I mention routers or spindles in this thread is because there is no sense in using massive motors for the axes when the cutting motor is small. Also, the most popular cutter for cutting shapes out of boards is about 10mm in diameter - if you push that too hard/fast it breaks.

Would suggest you start with a router, but that is a subject for another thread (http://www.mechmate.com/Forum/messages/47/2560.html) http://www.mechmate.com/Forum/clipart/happy.gif.

reza forushani

Fri 09 February 2007, 21:16

Gerald
Are you now recommending these motors - MotionKing?

Gerald_D

Fri 09 February 2007, 21:23

No, I am neutral about MotionKing motors and not recommending them yet. They need to be tested and proved first.

Hugo Carradini

Sat 10 February 2007, 19:13

Because I don't want to to take chances with my first baby I have been looking for a Kit and I thinks this will work with the Oriental Motors ¿Right?
KL- 3815 $129
Unregulated Power Supply, 500 W, 38VDC/15A, 120VAC or 230VAC
This unit includes 500VA toroidal transformer, 2 of 10000uF 40V capacitors,
25A 600V bridge rectify, and chassis

javeria

Fri 07 September 2007, 05:54

cbboatworks

Wed 19 September 2007, 05:28

Here is a quote I got from Motion King.price is for shipping to Wilmington NC,I think I will make an order this week so if anyone is interested in placing an order I will pay for the hole order and ship them to you as soon as I receive them.please let me know. Thanks

cbboatworks@aol.com
Gene

As per your request, the costs are as below:
34HS9802, $45.00/pcs, 4pcs ------------- $180.00
TNT Express Cost ----------------------------- $192.00
SUM ------------------------------------------------ $372.00

Best Regards

cbboatworks

Wed 19 September 2007, 06:00

Hello

I did not ask in my last post regarding the Motion King motors. If anyone is reading this and see I should order a different motor from Motion King please chime in and correct me. I spend at least 1 to 2 hours a day of reading and post very little here.I have not found enough info on the motors to make the correct decision .Please help I will be ordering this week.Thanks

Motion King Item #34HS9802

Gene
cbboatworks@aol.com

Gerald D

Wed 19 September 2007, 06:57

In my ignorance of motors, and having considered Mariss's feedback, I would personally go for the the 34HS9801 which is the middle of the range in that motor size. The ...02 is a high current low inductance version while the 03 is the low current high inductance version?

cbboatworks

Wed 19 September 2007, 08:54

I would like to thank you Gerald for responding to my questions, I have contacted Motion King on there gear head steppers as well. I have emailed tech support to ask them to recommend a compatible motor to the Oriental Motor PK296A1A-SG7.2. If they do not have what i am looking for in the gear head stepper I will order the one you think is best.(34HS9801) I will post again after hearing back from them.Thanks

Gene
cbboatworks

In my ignorance of motors, and having considered Mariss's feedback, I would personally go for the the 34HS9801 which is the middle of the range in that motor size. The ...02 is a high current low inductance version while the 03 is the low current high inductance version?

Gerald D

Wed 19 September 2007, 12:17

Gene, maybe you should check if you have to pay an import tax on those motors? TNT Express will probably call you to say they have a parcel for you and they they would like to know what "Stepper Motors" are. They would be trying to figure out the "Customs Tariff Code" from this document: http://hotdocs.usitc.gov/docs/tata/hts/bychapter/0702c85.pdf and there you will see that import duties on motors can range from zero(free) to 6.7%. The best thing to do is to get your supplier (MotionKing) to state the tariff code number on their invoice. (My guess is for tariff code 8501.20.20)

Then you might also have a Sales Tax or Value Added Tax?

TNT Express will only hand the parcel to you if you pay them all the taxes and duties.

cbboatworks

Wed 19 September 2007, 13:13

Hello Gerald

In the past I have ordered Radio Controlled Helicopters 20 at a time from China with no import tax added. the shipping was through EMS as well.I have never run into a problem it may be different with the motors. I will check into it before sending money.Thanks for the Heads up

Gene

Gene, maybe you should check if you have to pay an import tax on those motors? TNT Express will probably call you to say they have a parcel for you and they they would like to know what "Stepper Motors" are. They would be trying to figure out the "Customs Tariff Code" from this document: http://hotdocs.usitc.gov/docs/tata/hts/bychapter/0702c85.pdf and there you will see that import duties on motors can range from zero(free) to 6.7%. The best thing to do is to get your supplier (MotionKing) to state the tariff code number on their invoice. (My guess is for tariff code 8501.20.20)

Then you might also have a Sales Tax or Value Added Tax?

TNT Express will only hand the parcel to you if you pay them all the taxes and duties.

Gerald D

Wed 19 September 2007, 13:28

If you are an experienced importer, you shouldn't have a problem with the paperwork.

I am just doing all I can to minimise your surprises with these motors, seeing that you will be the first person to actually use MotionKing for this project. Thanks in advance for being the guineau pig. :)

cbboatworks

Wed 19 September 2007, 14:50

Gerald I am very grateful for your help and all that you have done by making it possible to build a wonderful machine like the MechMate. I am not only speaking for myself I think others will agree that the MechMate is the Best design on the web. I have not had a chance to start building yet but have had a chance to see the MechMate being built in person by JR Hatcher.He has a awesome machine.I will have to say he is a top notch builder. Keep the MechMates coming. Thanks to all of you

If you are an experienced importer, you shouldn't have a problem with the paperwork.

I am just doing all I can to minimise your surprises with these motors, seeing that you will be the first person to actually use MotionKing for this project. Thanks in advance for being the guineau pig. :)

Abernathy

Fri 02 November 2007, 13:59

I've been lurking, following this thread on the imported motors, and was wondering if you've recieved them yet, and If so, what was your conclusion?

Thanks--Very informative..

Abernathy

sailfl

Sun 04 November 2007, 03:58

Yes, I would also like to know what happened. Did Motionking respond to a compatable geared motor.

pksharma

Sun 04 November 2007, 06:08

cbboatworks,
Did you get your M.K. moters ? What's the result ?

Uthman

Mon 05 November 2007, 00:31

Hi all, I'm new to this forum, can anyone please tell me the ac power for 34hs9802 and 23hs8603 Motionking motors? I'm using them in Engraving machine and want to calculate their power.

Gerald D

Mon 05 November 2007, 00:56

Do you already have the motors and are they already connected and running? What is the voltage of your power supply?

Uthman

Mon 05 November 2007, 01:17

Yea, they're running. The input voltage of the motors' drivers is 220V ac, and the output voltages are 17 and 60 V ac

Gerald D

Mon 05 November 2007, 01:55

Then you can measure the ac power by measuring the amps at the 220V side. Volts x Amps = Power (Watts)

Uthman

Mon 05 November 2007, 02:11

You mean Volts*Amps*power factor, ac not dc power Gerald D, my problem is how to calculate the power factor. Can you help please???

Gerald D

Mon 05 November 2007, 02:26

Can't actually help. If it all works and you can measure everything, why do you need to calculate anything? You don't have to lay thicker wires to your house or build a new power station, or anything like that do you? :)

Uthman

Mon 05 November 2007, 02:34

Thank you anyway!

Kobus_Joubert

Tue 15 April 2008, 23:35

Any FRESH news on MotionKing 34HS9801 steppers ? Anybody using them yet?

Robert M

Mon 12 May 2008, 18:31

Hi Gene
Where are you in your built ?
Have you had a chance to do the “kitchen project” with those Motionkings?
Can any others with MotionKing motors chime-in and give some feed back, it be interesting to have some updates !
Thanks for considering, Robert

Lex

Wed 02 July 2008, 04:34

I am also thinking serousily about importing some motors from Motionking. Are there any MMs in production with this motors fitted?
I know they are on Kobus's BBB.
Who else?

Robert M

Thu 07 August 2008, 05:14

Hi all
As stated before, I’m planning on making my MM with an indexer.
I’ve pretty much finished my blue prints and the “to buy” list but still hesitant on this key selection... THE MOTORS :eek:
With all the info on motors I read and can absorb, I’m still no quite confident about what I came to pre-select.
Been looking at the MotionKing 34HS (http://www.motionking.com/Products/Hybrid_Stepper_Motors/34HS_Stepper_Motor_86mm_1.8degree.htm?ID=12&fenlei_id=2&products=34HS%20Stepper%20Motor%20-86mm(1.8%20degree)%20)rang.
Say I would want to select two type of motors, one type for the MM design and the other one for the indexer but out of the same controller ( power supply), do I see in the right direction by assuming if I’m to mixed motors size they should be the same (or close to each other) Inductance & rated current ?
As an example, I’m considering the 34HS 4802 for the MM and the 34HS 2802 for the indexer since it may be more suited for indexing with its higher holing torque.
All those will be eventually fitted with a belt reduction transmission. ( only after the BB will be able to cut aluminum). A 4:1 for the MM and a +/- 30:1 multi-stage version for the indexer.

Is selecting two different types for my future set up a correct reasonable way to go or all 5 motors should be the same specification / size ?
Does my pre-selection seems reasonable ?
What m'I not seeing clear ??
Thanks in advance, Robert :confused:

J.R. Hatcher

Thu 07 August 2008, 05:44

Robert why are you going to use different motors. I think with a 30:1 tranny on the indexer you could pull your house off the foundation :D. Also holding torque will be increased many times, in fact with a 30:1 if the motor had no torque you would not be able to move it because of just friction.;) Another thing to consider with a 30:1 will be rpm. Will you be able to get the speed you want. It will be very slow maybe too slow.

Robert M

Thu 07 August 2008, 06:57

JR, I’m not going with different motors, just questioning / considering if it is the way I should go ?
Questioning this is where I’m at this stage. That’s why I need some advice.
I fully realize your torque concern, but you never have to much on an indexer as I read !
In my quest, I cam across those :
See Mike’s post #14 (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7382&postcount=14)
See Mike’s post #33 (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5025&postcount=33)
See Gerald’s post #7 (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12754&postcount=7)
They sell a 30:1 drive (http://www.doughtydrive.com/products.html)system for as an A-drive indexer -> See this video (http://www.doughtydrive.com/A%20Axia.html)

Obviously some detail & information I did not include in my post below was in order to keeping it as simple as I could :confused:
On my future indexer ( not lathe ! = no speed needed) I intend to turn pieces of various diameter, up to +/- 16”.
I’m not concern with small stock of say, 4inch diameter by 36” long or less ( just as an objective size). I’m more concern is when stock of +/- 8” + in diam by over 60” length will be needed !!?
Thanks for your concern /advice !
Amicalement, Robert ;)

Gerald D

Thu 07 August 2008, 07:16

Say I would want to select two type of motors, one type for the MM design and the other one for the indexer but out of the same controller ( power supply), do I see in the right direction by assuming if I’m to mixed motors size they should be the same (or close to each other) Inductance & rated current ?

If you want to run off one power supply (you can have more than one supply), that will give you a fixed voltage which will closely match one inductance value.

Rated currents can be completely different, that is not an issue.

Robert M

Fri 08 August 2008, 05:06

Thanks Gerald.
What do you think about my motor selection ?
Any suggestion & comments ??

Gerald D

Fri 08 August 2008, 06:11

It makes much more sense to use the same motor for everything. For example, next year you have one motor that becomes suspicious . . . . what will you use to exchange it with so that you can diagnose the problem?

Yes, you can have too much torque for an indexer.....you can have too much torque for anything......

When you have a 30:1 ratio for 16" diam work, you have no need for a bigger motor than the "linear" axis direct drive motors.

Robert M

Sun 10 August 2008, 07:43

Gerald, Aside of « suspicious » motor malfunction, what would you say that makes selecting all the same motor in a set up a more sensible choice??
In my purchase forecast, I figured it be wise to buy an extra MotionKing motor at the same time since it’s only an extra +/- 40euros and the bulk of the total cost is more in the courier charges ( +/- 250 to 300 euros per order!).

Maybe I’m having one of those translating moments or I’m just not understanding but what do you mean by “ When you have a 30:1 ratio for 16" diam work, you have no need for a bigger motor than the "linear" axis direct drive motors “ it's been keeping my mind busy this last couple days !!!

Would you consider the 34HS 2802 (a 680N.cm motor) with a 30:1 trans to big for an indexer with the ambition to turn / index small light pieces up to hallow but still heavy wood stock of +/- 40cm x 230cm ( 16” x 90”) ??
If so, what should I look at ?
Thanks for your attention to my quest in understanding more on motors and proper motor selection :o
Robert ;)

Gerald D

Sun 10 August 2008, 09:27

Take your x-axis; there your direct-drive MotionKing will have a 20 tooth pinion. One turn of the motor will move the cutter 3.14" The motor torque will give you enough force to move the cutter, or, to hold the x-position while the y-axis is doing a move.

Now, convert to the rotary "indexer" equivalent, by wrapping your table around a cylinder. Let's take an x-axis of 96", that means a table and rack length of 96". If that is wrapped around a cylinder, the table diameter is 30" and the rack becomes a 30" diameter gear with 600 teeth. This gives you an "indexer" of 30:1 ratio, capable of handling 30" diameter work at the same cutting speeds, cutting forces, holding forces. That is why I say that 30:1 ratio will hold/cut 16" diameter work, without needing a bigger motor that you use to drive the x-axis, or y-axis.

Why not get very complicated?; the x-axis can have smaller motors than the y-axis, because there are two motors on the x sharing the load. The z can also be smaller than the y. Or, maybe you can make the x and z the same size and get a big y? You can make yourself mad asking all the questions all the time.

Would a motor be too big? Well, there is a whole thread about that. Would a certain MotionKing be too big? I have no idea - I have never seen any MotionKing motor.

Richards

Sun 10 August 2008, 09:55

Robert,

Gerald has given some good advice. I had to read the indexer part several times before I "got" it, but his reasoning makes perfect sense.

Like him, I have never used a MotionKing motor, so I would only be guessing if I suggested any of their motors. The specifications look good, but over the years, I've bought a lot of motors from a lot of companies that didn't work as advertised. When I found Oriental Motor, I stopped testing other brands of motors. The Oriental Motor did everything that it was supposed to do and did it day after day after day.

If I were going to specify motors for your machine, I would use the Oritiental Motor PK296A2A-SG7.2 motors for the X, Y and Z axes. That particular motor seems to be working well for those who have already built their machines. For the indexer, I would have to do the math to see which gear ratio would work best. A 16" diameter is about 50", so 50 inches / 2000 steps = 0.025" per step. If you wanted a resolution of 0.001" per step, you would divide 0.025" by 0.001", which would give you a 25:1 gear ratio, so your specification about using a 30:1 gear ratio seems to be valid.

Because the Oriental Motor PK296A2A-SGxx motors are relatively inexpensive, I would use them until I needed something else. Granted, their gear boxes have a little backlash and granted that their gearboxes cannot handle all the torque that the geared motor can produce. However, the gearboxes seem to be more than adequate for the speeds and feeds required.

I would use a 25VDC to 35VDC power supply (I've used both with excellent results).

EDITED: I would wire the motors half-coil for use with a power supply in the 25-35VDC range. If you wire the motors full-coil (bipolar series), you'll need a power supply closer to 70VDC.

One note about building belt-driven transmissions: Although a single-stage transmission is easy enough to build and fairly inexpensive, just bolting a geared motor onto the motor-mount is sooo much easier. I've built several versions of 3:1 belted transmissions for my shopbot; however, I've replaced those motors and transmissions with the 7.2:1 geared motors that Shopbot offered. As far as I can see, the 3:1 and the 7.2:1 produce cuts of equal quality. Both the 3:1 and the 7.2:1 produced cuts that are far superior to the non-geared 1:1 motors that came with my machine. The 1:1 produced significant "chatter". The geared motors still show some "chatter", but nothing that can't be sanded out with a few strokes of 100 grit sandpaper.

Robert M

Sun 10 August 2008, 10:23

Gerald, Allow me to say this old proverb / joke : “Ahhhh, now I can see much better, says the blind man ”.
Thanks for this “rotary indexer equivalent” info, much appreciated :)

I have this Excel sheet (witch I can’t really remember where I got it, excuse my lack of knowing the original writer! ) about proper motor holding torque size calculation ( see the attachment), but not certain what are the weight of the individuals axis of the MM for using it ??
Well on the other hand, fine about having this excel figuring out the proper motor torque size, but what’s the real draw back of getting a motor a little bigger than prescribe by this sheet ?

What I mean by little bigger, say going 20 – 25% stronger holding torque then what it calculates with out exceeding this 1000oz-in barrier !? ( again, today my brain is getting buzzed with me getting in this motor thing, so sorry if I can’t really remember where & why I read this but I think it was a quote from Mike Richard and/or Marris recommending no one should exceed this 1000ioz-in ???).

Making yourself mad you say… My family is seriously considering calling the guys who gladly come and pull people out of their home with a “white vest” :eek:
All this because I keep on saying I’m having a blast with all this !!
Improving my knowledge has never been so fun & rewarding….
Thanks MechMaters, thank you so much Gerald ;)
( for the attachement change the extention from .txt ->to -> .xls )

Gerald D

Sun 10 August 2008, 11:14

Do you think that the 1000 oz-in is suddenly bad, while the 999 oz-in is still good? What is the shape of the good/bad graph before we get to 1000 oz-in?

Richards

Sun 10 August 2008, 13:55

The "ideal" motor, when used with a gearbox or belt-transmission would probably be the PK296-03AA (which is probably the motor used in the PK296A2A-SGxx geared motor - when you compare the specifications).

With a 30-tooth pinion gear (inch measurements), you get a pitch diameter of 1.5-inches, or 4.71 linear inches of motion per pinion gear rotation. That means that with a 7.2:1 gear drive, the stepper motor is going to be spinning between about 200RPM and 650RPM when the feed rate is between 2-ips and 7-ips - which is where I personally cut almost 100% of my work. Those speeds fall on a very strong portion of the trorque curve, and with the 7.2:1 gearbox, the gearbox is the limiting factor for torque, not the motor.

At 7-ips and a 7.2:1 gearbox, that motor requires about 21,000 steps per second, meaning that even a modest computer can drive Mach3 at those speeds.

Power requirements are fairly modest. Voltage requirements are modest. Heat generation is modest. Power is sufficient. What more could you ask from a "universal" motor?

Robert M

Sun 10 August 2008, 14:50

Hi Mike, Thanks for your input and these math. :):)

It’s no secret that I’m seduced by the approach of making my own belt-drive transmission for quite a wile and that make me look at other option / alternatives than those PK geared motor set-up.
I’ve drawn a trany with a 4:1 ratio for the X, Y & Z and another with 30:1 for the indexer.
Beauty of those as you know is I can eventually change their ration as I please / need or testing , with-in a reasonable range !

Reasons why I’m looking / thinking at the MotionKing motors is to add info on this brand for others & future MechMate builds, and also they seem to have a wider range. Although, I’m totally lost in this range selection thing, once I understand this better and make more sense I too will share & help… hopefully ?
Don’t read me wrong, I have nothing against Oriental Motors, their track record is not to question. But knowing about other brands may help !!
Never read anything wrong about MotionKing… YET!
If at the end of the “funnel” there is only Oriental Motor to be, than that’s that !

Robert M

Sun 10 August 2008, 14:56

Gerald, I’m sorry if I got there (1000 oz-in) but I don’t have the know-how, knowledge or pretension of knowing how to determine what oz-in torque is crucial or bad, it’s only a “figured value” I remember reading somewhere and I can’t remember where, but if my memory isn’t playing to much with me, it was a good credible source !!

What are the weight of individual axis on a spec regular MechMate, so I can juggle and learn with this Excel sheet ??
Also, what are the drawbacks (if any) for selecting a motor with a little more holding torque, say +/- 20-30% than prescribe ?
In a typical MechMate set-up / case, why 450 N.cm is OK and why not 580N.cm ?
I read you clear when you say “you can have too much torque for anything......”, but timid to ask… why :o :confused:
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not suffering of the Tim Allen syndrome “ BIGGER IS BETTER” au contraire, I too am a preacher of selecting the proper part needed”. It’s just that I’m questioning it to improve & understand more on this.

Say a motor manufacturer offers virus motor specs for the same given motor torque ( In this case see MotionKing 450 N.cm series (http://www.motionking.com/show_products_detail.asp?ID=12&fenlei_ID=2), there are three different ones)
How and what would make one select a specific type vs the other ones offerd ?
Question is in relevance on a MechMate set up / application, OBVIOUSLY :D

The way I see it is it’s always seem more fun & rewarding making a “more” calculated compromise, if I’m allowed to say compromise, when selecting a motor set for a CNC that will perform various but similar task : eek:

Again, many thanks for your patience and sharing some info.
It’s not because I’m French, it’s only because I need more info before I “gabish” :)
Amicalement, Robert ;)

Gerald D

Sun 10 August 2008, 21:04

Robert, you have tried to get me to answer these questions many times, and you should have figured out by now that I am not going to answer them. I do not have the experience to give a correct answer. Maybe you should try another forum?

Robert M

Mon 11 August 2008, 04:13

Sorry if I’ve worked on your patience Gerald, didn’t realize I’ve gone that far. Got blinded in this questioning after spending soooo many hrs this past week-end reading & searching for motor answers, Thanks ;)

Richards

Mon 11 August 2008, 07:54

When three motors have the same torque figures but different inductance figures, use the inductance data to compare the motors. The higher the inductance, the shorter the torque curve. In other words, if the application called for high torque at slow speeds, you would choose a motor that had higher inductance. On the other hand, if you needed the highest possible torque at faster speeds, you would choose a motor that had lower inductance.

Of course, you would have to do some testing. You would have to build several power supplies, or use an expensive Variac to alter the voltage.

Most companies spend a lot of time and development money testing various components in their search for the 'right' parts. Since it can easily cost thousands of dollars to thoroughly test electronics for a CNC router, I would strongly suggest that, if at all possible, buy the Oriental Motor stepper motors that everyone else is using. The cost of testing other motors will be much higher than paying for the Oriental Motor steppers.

Robert M

Mon 11 August 2008, 12:45

Mike, I’m Very grateful of your time in helping clarify this.
Amicalement, Robert ;)

dragonfinder1

Sat 27 September 2008, 20:15

cbboatworks,
Did you get your M.K. moters ? What's the result ?

Has anyone installed these M.K. motors on any router yet? I can't see that anyone is talking about them anymore. Was this a good idea that just didn't work?

Dave

domino11

Sat 27 September 2008, 21:32

Kobus used the motion king motors. Here is the post where he tells you which model number. Check out his build logs. :)

http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12289&postcount=70

Robert M

Sun 28 September 2008, 06:22

Hi Dave,

I haven’t tested or installed nine as of yet, my work & other priorities has thrown some ice on my indented schedule.
One thing I can testified is they have an excellent service & shipment was within the promised window ( less than 3wks from payment ). When kitchen table will be completed & running, I will report on those.
Amicalement, Robert ;)

Kobus_Joubert

Sun 28 September 2008, 08:02

I am still happy with mine...no problem to report.

domino11

Sun 28 September 2008, 17:54

Robert,
Did you go with the same model as Kobus?

Robert M

Sun 28 September 2008, 19:59

I decided to go with the 34H9802 !
Robert ;)

dragonfinder1

Sun 28 September 2008, 21:48

Robert

Are you going to go direct drive, or some kind of reduction?

Dave

Robert M

Mon 29 September 2008, 05:25

Dave, for starters I’ll be direct drive to iron out the first steps of the machine. Then, I’m planning to make my own 4:1 belt reduction drive ;)

dragonfinder1

Mon 29 September 2008, 17:15

Well three of us are about to bite the bullet and start building. They will be triplets. Startup should be sometime in February, since we're building them side by side the only difference in start up will be because of fine tuning. I'm going to go direct drive, Dennis is going 3:1 belt and Scott hasn't decided yet. this is going to be fum.

Dave

Robert M

Mon 29 September 2008, 18:50

I wanted to share a PM to me from Heath
Robert,
Where did you order the motionking motors from? Can you share the price and shipping etc?

thanks :)

Heath.

Heath, since it is policy on this forum I will not disclose here what I paid unless Gerald allow it !
On the other hand, it is no big secret, just plainly email to MotionKing direct and you’ll receive promptly an answer to your question w/ quote.
I ordered directly from MotionKing.
One thing I know I can tell, TNT charged 248Euros + 25$can brakeage fee.
Again, I’m very pleased with their boxing, service & delivery promises.
Hope this help.
Amicalement, Robert ;)

domino11

Tue 30 September 2008, 07:01

Robert,
Yes I know you can order directly from Motion King, but I was hoping that there was a North American distributor that handled their products. Dankie for the reply. :)

Nikonauts

Mon 22 December 2008, 16:30

The 34HS9802 is a multi specs motor with Bi-polar or Uni-polar. If you need 4pcs, the costs are as below:
34HS9802, $45.00/pcs, 4pcs ------------ $180.00
TNT Express Cost --------------------------- $98.00
SUM ---------------------------------------------- $278.00

Thats the costs to India.

RGD
Irfan

Darn, shipping cost they charge from China to India is cheaper than what they quote me for China-Malaysia..... like they charge me 50% more. We also have TNT here.

Kobus_Joubert

Mon 22 December 2008, 21:44

This was my quote in April 2008...

Thanks for your inquiry for our stepper motors.
As per your request, the costs are as below:
34HS9801, EUR48.00/pcs, 4pcs ------------- EUR192.00
TNT Express Charge ------------------------------ EUR304.00
SUM ----------------------------------------------------- EUR496.00

Be glad you do not live in South Africa :(

Robert M

Tue 23 December 2008, 06:13

Last august MotionKing charged me Eur250.00 for TNT Express from China to Canada.
But also, TNT charge me a extra 35$can to handle the paperwork & brokerage !!

Jama

Tue 23 December 2008, 06:54

Gerald D

Tue 23 December 2008, 07:47

That is a very good bit of info Jama, thanks! Hmm . . under US$200 for a nicely geared motor . . . .

riesvantwisk

Tue 23 December 2008, 19:07

FYI,

This is the quote I got:

34HS9801, $50.00/pcs, 5pcs ---------- $250.00
China Post Parcel -------------------------- $174.00
SUM --------------------------------------------- $424.00
USD & 20 days available.

Ries

Nikonauts

Wed 24 December 2008, 04:34

Hello Nikonauts,
You may be interested to know that Oriental motors in Singapore will charge you SG$288 each for PK296A2 SG7.2 just across the bridge from Johor. This is a metric version of the motor sold in the USA PK296A2A -SG7.2. (The only difference is the the metric option has a shaft with a keyway and the dimensions are in mm). I suggest you give them a buzz on 1800 80 6161. That is a toll free Malaysian number. It may be better than chasing suppliers who are very far.

Regards,

Hey thanks...
But for me, it's still way out of my budget constrain. Hmm... US$200, with gears and it's OM. MK one is $80 (including S&H averaged per unit) without gears. Very nice deal but can't afford it this time, i'll definitely consider it for next build.

martin77pl

Fri 06 February 2009, 15:05

Can anyone tell me if g203v and motionking stepper motor 34hs9801 is possible? Are they both compatible and can I use this driver for that motor?

Richards

Fri 06 February 2009, 19:01

I've never used a Motion King motor, but the data sheet looks good for the 34HS9801. It is an eight-lead motor, so it can be wired Parallel, Series, or Half-Coil.

The data sheet shows that for Unipolar (half-coil), you would use a power supply of 50 to 65V (maximum). When wired half-coil, the motor would pull up to 4A, so you would use a 62K resistor between terminals 11 and 12 of the stepper driver. The motor is rated at about 780 oz*in.

If you wired the motor parallel, it would pull up to 8A, which is too much for the Gecko G203v stepper driver (7A max.) Wiring parallel would also produce a lot of heat.

If you wired the motor series, it would pull up to 2.8A. The inductance would be 16mH, so the motor would work better at slow speeds if you wired it series. You would use a 31K resistor between terminals 11 and 12. Because of the high inductance, you would not be able to use the proper power supply of 100 to 125V. The G203v is limited to 80V. That also means that you would not get the 1,100 oz*in that you would expect from a series wired motor.

So, if I were considering that motor, I would only consider using it wired half-coil.

Of course, all of those figures assume that the data sheet is accurate.

Gerald D

Fri 06 February 2009, 21:50

Hi Martin. Kobus is using that combination of motor and drive on his machine: BBB is cutting #6 - Brakpan, Gauteng, S.Africa (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=686)

Kobus_Joubert

Sat 07 February 2009, 23:02

Correction. I have 202's

martin77pl

Sun 08 February 2009, 06:08

Hi guys, I have spent some time reading the forum and decided i will go for oriental motors. I will place my order tomorrow, it appears that there is one distributor of these motors in Poland. As far as the price is concerned I can get PK296AE-SG7.2 for 212 euros plus VAT per piece. I bought PMDX-122 and four G203V yesterday. I cant wait till they arrive, it is gonna take some time before I receive them. The shipment from the USA. I have started looking around for a supplier of them parts to be laser cut and bend. I am not sure if it would be enough to print the plans and then scan them, email them to the company so that they can produce them. Or do all these parts have to be in DXF format?

Gerald D

Sun 08 February 2009, 07:23

Martin, I started a new thread for you over here: Starting out, placing orders - Wroclaw, Poland (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1393). There is the reply to your laser cut question.

mrloeng

Thu 19 February 2009, 10:52

Here are some questions from someone who can not be something electrical.... : )
A Motion King connected with 4 cable, it will say that I have half the effect of the engine?
And if I burn engine, I can connect the other 4 cables, and I have a new engine?
And some more newbie questions .... :)
When each engine is connected to each driver, howe do I select / run the 2 motors on the X axis!
This is done in Mash3 if I have understood it correctly?

Richards

Thu 19 February 2009, 11:19

The answer to your question depends on the Motion King motor that you select. The 34HS9801 motor has four coils inside, A, B, C, and D. Normally you would use Coil A OR coil C with either coil B OR coil D. In other words, coil A OR C = one phase of the motor and coil C OR D = the other phase of the motor.

The 34HS9801 has eight wires exiting the motor. A=Red, /A=Yellow, C=Blue, /C=Black, B=White, /B=Orange, D=Brown, and /D=Green.

If I used that motor with a Gecko G203v stepper driver, I would connect the Red wire to Phase A, the Yellow wire to Phase /A, the White wire to Phase B and the Orange wire to Phase /B on the G203v. Each of the other wires would be individually taped off and isolated from each other.

If somehow you destroyed one coil inside the motor, you MIGHT be able to use another coil as a substitute; however, if the motor got hot enough to melt the insulation on one coil, there would be a very good possibility that the heat would have damaged other coils - so be careful.

In Mach 3, you have the option to slave an axis to another axis. So, I often set Mach 3 to slave the A-axis to the X-axis. By doing that, whenever a step command is given to the X-axis, the same step command is given to the A-axis. Be sure to set the direction signals properly in Mach 3. Normally a slaved axis turns in the opposite direction of the master axis (because the shafts of the motors face each other). If you set one motor to turn CW (active high direction signal), set the other motor to run CCW (active low direction signal).

mrloeng

Thu 19 February 2009, 13:22

Thanks!
That was good information.
One more questions... eight wires motor, with 4 cable connection/half coil,
Do I have only half power of the motor?

Richards

Thu 19 February 2009, 17:57

When you wire a motor half-coil, you will have 70% of the torque that you would get if you wired the motor either bipolar series or bipolar parallel; however, you will get the same speed as if you wired the motor bipolar parallel (all eight wires connected). If you wired the motor bipolar series, you would get much lower speed than if you wired it either half-coil or bipolar parallel.

To get full power and full speed, you would need to wire the motor bipolar parallel, but then you would have MUCH higher temperatures.

Unless I have some special need, I wire my motors half-coil. I get good speed, good torque and moderate temperatures.

Gerald D

Thu 19 February 2009, 22:08

MrNorway, (do your friends call you MrNorway?)

Have a look at these graphs to get an idea of the differences:

http://www.mechmate.com/Forum/messages/15/3339.gif

(From Oriental Motor reference (http://www.orientalmotor.com/support/Unipolar_connection.htm))

Richards

Fri 20 February 2009, 02:53

There are some "magic" numbers that are often used in electronics. One of those "magic" numbers is the SQRT(2).

The torque differences between unipolar and bipolar are based on the SQRT(2). Bipolar torque (either series or parallel) = Unipolar torque X SQRT(2). The reverse is also true, i.e. Unipolar torque = Bipolar torque X SQRT(2) / 2.

Current is based on the same "magic" numbers: Unipolar Current = Bipolar series current X SQRT(2). Bipolar Parallel Current = Unipolar Current X SQRT(2). The reverse is also true: Unipolar Current = Bipolar Current X SQRT(2) / 2. Bipolar Series Current = Unipolar Current X SQRT(2) / 2.

Since the SQRT(2) = 1.414 and the SQRT(2) / 2 = 0.707, you can see where the 140% and 70% figures that I often quote come from.

Those "magic" numbers are also used in computing the size of transformer that you need to get a specific DC voltage. DC voltage = AC voltage X SQRT(2). AC voltage = DC voltage X SQRT(2) / 2. In other words, if you're going to build your own power supply and you know that you want 39VDC output from the DC power supply, you just use the formula to see what transformer to use: 39VDC X SQRT(2) / 2 = 27.58VAC.

The chart that Gerald furnished shows that relationship. Even without numbers on the X and Y axes, if you know what to expect, you'll see the relationship between the motors based on the SQRT(2) theory.

mrloeng

Fri 20 February 2009, 05:35

Thanks!
I have been given price on engines and drivers from MotionKing now.
They recommended these drivers for the motors.
I think this wil be good!

Motors 34HS4801, $58.00/pcs, 6pcs- $348.00
Drivers 2H090MK $88.00/pcs, 6pcs $528.00
Express Freight Charge------- $216.00 (sent to Norway) (32Kg)

This will be my first parts to my machine.
The mechanical is no problem for me, but the electric is my nightmare!!
So I start with it! :)

Thanks again for info.
I hope I can help someone in here to, with my experience as a CNC operator.
After some time..... because I'm new in here now.
Thanks.

Gerald D

Fri 20 February 2009, 06:56

Is 34HS4801 correct? You need to be very careful to order correctly.

None of us have used MotionKing Drivers yet, but I think they should be okay. Better check your numbers. ;)

mrloeng

Fri 20 February 2009, 08:10

Number is correct :)
Maybe I take big chance here but....
I will tray it.

domino11

Fri 20 February 2009, 08:22

If my memory serves, it was the 34HS9801 that most guys were using?

domino11

Fri 20 February 2009, 08:26

Sorry my mistake again,,,the steppers are 34 HS 9801

This was Kobus' response (in his build thread) to Mrnorway's part number. :confused:

mrloeng

Fri 20 February 2009, 08:44

I know which number he chose (9801), but I will have a larger engine, (4801).
I shall use the linear slides that are a little heavier to push, therefore I use the larger engines, and they will also keep the axes more stable during milling. :)

domino11

Fri 20 February 2009, 09:17

Ok, sorry for my confusion. :o

Gerald D

Fri 20 February 2009, 09:28

Here is a list of MotionKing's drives:
http://www.motionking.com/Products/Drivers/stepper_motor_drivers.htm

. . . . but I do not see the 2H090MK on that list today?

Gerald D

Fri 20 February 2009, 09:33

Here is a page from MotionKing's website:
http://www.motionking.com/support/unipolar_bipolar.htm

Which appears to be copied from this page of Oriental Motor:
http://www.orientalmotor.com/support/Unipolar_connection.htm

Make's one worry to what extent their data is their own, and how accurate it might be. :eek:

mrloeng

Fri 20 February 2009, 12:25

Here is drivers info.

Gerald D

Fri 20 February 2009, 12:37

That MotionKing drive is quite different to the Geckodrives that we know well. Unfortunately we will not be able to offer you much support on getting it wired and set up.

javeria

Sat 21 February 2009, 07:20

Svein - you may not find much support here - and I see so many iinputs to that drive - you should ask Motion king if they can support you and also ask if their drives can run with Mach.

alternatively try leadshine
http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1222

as leadshine is located in HK shipping is much cheaper

if u are looking much nearer but still chinese with good support - take a look at this website http://stappenmotor.nl/

hope this helps.

RGDS
Irfan

javeria

Sat 21 February 2009, 07:27

seems these drives dont have a common internal ground for the optos and need to be grounded for every inputs - that should not be difficult - there are so many using these drives -

we Mechmaters might just learn at your expense :) - whether these drives are worth or not.

I would suggest you go ahead - and give it a try if finances are not a concern.

IF NOT STICK WITH THE GECKO :D

mrloeng

Sat 21 February 2009, 09:29

I think I go for Motion King 34HS9801 and Geco 202 instead, so I get good support here.

Gerald D

Sat 21 February 2009, 10:55

Svein,

I think that we will be able to help you to get the MK drives to work, but we do not have the experience. The MK drives will be very cheap for you because they will be shipped for free with the motors. The shipping costs on the Gecko's could be 30% of the purchase cost.

mrloeng

Sat 21 February 2009, 11:21

Yes, MK drivers is a cheap solution. I can buy gecko if MK does not work....
I have been a little unsure of what to do ..
There are so many ways to do this..
I want very much MK 34HS4801 engines, but do not think there is any Gecko drivers that can support the engines.
Therefore, it is I think to also buy MK drivers..
But I dont noe, maybe I should just take the chance...

Gerald D

Sat 21 February 2009, 11:32

The Gecko 201, 202 & 203 drives will all drive the Motionking 34HS4801 motors, that is no problem.
If I was in your position, I think I would buy the MK drives that they recommend. I wonder why they do not list the 2H090MK? Why did you select the 2H090MK - did they recommend it to you?

mrloeng

Sat 21 February 2009, 12:17

They recommend 2H090MK.
I asked if it was the SM-90 or 2L110M I may have to this engine, then they said that the SM-90 been shut down instead of 2H090MK.
And 2L110M is too big for this engine.
Think I go for the MK pack. They have been quick to reply on the mail I sent, so I think there support is also ok.
So I think this will go well.
Thanks Gerald.
You made the decision easier :)

servant74

Sun 21 June 2009, 20:17

I emailed Motion King about their geared motors with controllers.
Their response was:
........
34HS9801, $55.00/pcs, 4pcs ----------------- $220.00
SM-80/82X, $85.00/pcs, 4pcs ---------------- $340.00
Express Freight Charge ------------------------- $207.00
PayPal Surcharge (5%) ------------------------- $38.35
SUM ---------------------------------------------------- $805.35

The gear motor P/N is 34HS9801-G5.
........
Their controllers I assume are roughly equivalent to Gecko's.
I was thinking of using their G5 (a 1:5 ) gear head.

Any suggestions on more information about the Gecko's?

FYI, they also quoted 5 units:

34HS9801, $55.00/pcs, 5pcs ----------------- $275.00
SM-80/82X, $85.00/pcs, 5pcs ---------------- $340.00
Express Freight Charge ------------------------- $230.00
PayPal Surcharge (5%) ------------------------- $42.25
SUM ---------------------------------------------------- $887.25

Why did I ask for this quote? Because I was thinking of having a spare or another axis for an indexer eventually.

...

Suggestions?

(If someone needs/wants to see them let me know, they sent me a copy of their controller manuals electronically. Some of it is more than I currently really understand.)

shaper

Wed 24 June 2009, 20:28

Jack

If you go with them I'd be interested to know how the gearboxes go, I have just received my motors (34HS9801) without the gearboxes, I was steering clear of them as I was not able to get any specs with regard to backlash etc. on them.

Kobus_Joubert

Wed 24 June 2009, 23:11

My MK 34HS9801 motors are still going strong. One day I will get to cut ALU and try my own gearbox....maybe one day, but so far I am happy with what I have and how it works.

domino11

Thu 25 June 2009, 07:32

Jack,
Do you know what the backlash on that gearhead is? I did not find a datasheet when I quickly looked at their site today. Maybe a link to the datasheet?

servant74

Thu 25 June 2009, 07:55

I will send them an email. ... They obviously don't put all their information on their web site.

servant74

Thu 25 June 2009, 18:33

I got back a message from MotionKing that indicated they do not have the information.

Quote:
from Media Lee(MtionKing) <sales@motionking.com>
date Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 6:56 PM
subject Re: Re: Re: Price information please?
mailed-by mx1.csg.iadfw.net

hide details 6:56 PM (35 minutes ago)

Reply

Follow up message
Dear Jack Coats,

No, we don't hear such "backlash" for a stepper gear motor.

Thanks & Best Regards!

Media Lee
2009-06-26

domino11

Thu 25 June 2009, 21:17

Or they dont want to tell you what it is.

shaper

Fri 26 June 2009, 06:42

I went for the straight 34HS9801 as they couldn't give me the information either, I'll go with a 3:1 belt reduction instead. They quoted me $50US for the motor alone so they are only charging you $5US and freight for the gearhead may be worth a look and in the worst case just unbolt gearhead and ditch it.

Gerald D

Fri 26 June 2009, 09:39

If that gearhead motor is built like the Oriental Motor ones, the gearhead cannot simply be removed to expose a nice motor shaft - the motor shaft has gear teeth cut directly into it. See What does a stepper motor look like inside? (geared Oriental Motor) (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=943)

KenC

Mon 29 June 2009, 01:12

Hi,

This is my first post. Glad that I'd join this wonderful community. Been loading myself with the treasure of knowledge in this forum for some time now.

Had tinkered with "toy" scale simple CNC carving router using recycle printer motor... Very keen on building "Man" size MM to show my manhood :-)

A quick question on Microstepping. MK driver SM-80/82x
http://www.motionking.com/download/SM-80(AB)_Instruction_Rev.E.pdf
have choice of microstepping selection. How should we go about this selection?

Why MK? Cost is a factor...

Appreciate the pointer.

Gerald D

Mon 29 June 2009, 04:25

About 10 usteps (2000 per revolution):

Less, the cut could be rough.
More, your PC cannot generate the pulses fast enough

KenC

Mon 29 June 2009, 05:08

Gerald,

Thanks, does it matter if we use 3:1 belt reduction or not?

Cheers

Gerald D

Mon 29 June 2009, 06:08

If you do not have belt reduction, then you can theoretically use a lot more (30) microsteps per revolution, but you can play with that later to see if it makes a real difference in the cutting quality.

KenC

Mon 29 June 2009, 09:17

I'll go with 3 or 4:1 belt reduction with the 34HS9801 and think it is fairly conclusive that the SM-80 will be suitable (multiple 1,2,5,10,20,40. or step/rev of 200, 400, 1000, 2000, 4000, 8000) rather then SM-80A (multiple 2,4,8,16,32) or SM-80B (multiple 1,2,4,8,16,32,64)

I am not trying to go too detail at this stage, but I need be sure anything I buy now has enough room for tuning & "upgrade"

Wonder when Marc & J.R are going to conclude their offer for the belt reduction. need to know the cost soonest to justify if the cost is worth the time saving.

Cheers

KenC

Mon 29 June 2009, 09:55

If I understand correctly, with the application of microstepping, he noise, smoothness and accuracy will also improve but only to an extend, emparically about 8x will see deminishing return in accuracy, but smoothness and noise improvement can still improve but do not know how far.
I also learnt that improving stepper movement was the original motive for the invention of microsrtepping. the others benifits just happened to came with the package...;)

Torque will reduce with higher stepping this has to do with megnetivc saturation of some sort... hence the belt reduction is really necessary. BUT since there are no complain of slipping here, then I can safely conclude the 34HS9801 has enough torque to go around their business in MM with a 3:1 belt reduction..

Please correct me if I made any error in judgment here.

Cheers

Robert M

Sun 04 April 2010, 20:21

To Kobus & others ( Kobus 1st as it appears to me you’re the one who is our senior MotionKing user ! )

As I’m gearing up and testing some 1st cuts, I’m getting some variable who is confusing my little beginners knowledge. This is after all my 1st experience with any cnc working….although managing considerably…ok !!

Anyway, may I ask some of you Motionking users your Mache motor tuning specs so I ( & some other too) may have some comparisons & basis to look at

Thanks in advance, Robert ;)

Kobus_Joubert

Sun 04 April 2010, 23:26

Hi Robert. I play around with the setup from time to time, but I think I have Mach3 setup for Velocity at 8000 and Acceleration around 800. Will go to the shop later to check.

Robert M

Mon 05 April 2010, 04:38

Kobus…..thanks to reply !
I think you may slipped on the “o” button !!!!
Wouldn’t it be more like, velocity at 800 and acceleration at 80 !? or is it a rocket you have ??? :D
ALSO, have you had to adjust the step &/or direction pulse ??
It seems I need to adjust those too for my set up, but cannot find proper description nor calculated values to refer to ??
Robert ;)

Gerald D

Mon 05 April 2010, 05:28

Robert, remember that Kobus would be set up in millimeters, not inches.

Kobus_Joubert

Mon 05 April 2010, 08:07

Did nothing to the Step Puls and Dir Pulse setting there. As Gerald said I work in the NORMAL dimentions..:)

PEU

Fri 09 April 2010, 15:36

Kobus, a couple of questions regarding MK motors:

1) do they came marked/engraved with their part number? I ask because I plan to purchase them locally and I dont want to receive something else "by mistake"

2) if you remember, what was your rationale for selecting the 9801 motor instead of the 9802? I prefer the 9802 due to it lower inductance.

Thanks!

Kobus_Joubert

Fri 09 April 2010, 23:16

Hi Pablo,

Each motor has a STICKER on it with the name MOTIONKING and the TYPE.

I think I asked the question on this forum or maybe I contacted Gecko directly....cannot remember exactly.... Gave the spec. of the 9801 and 9802 and got the answer back that the 9801 is more suited to the Gecko.

PEU

Sun 18 April 2010, 09:04

will ask again in their CNCZone forum, just to be sure :)

PEU

Sat 08 May 2010, 07:42

Mariss just replied my question:

I asked:

Im building my second router and I'm still undecided on what motor to select, narrowed down the selection to 2 units from Motionking, both are Nema34 and 8 wires:

Electrical Specifications (UNI-POLAR):

34HS9801
Rated Current: 4.0
Phase Resistance: 0.98 ohm
Phase Inductance: 4.1 mH
Holding Torque: 490 N.cm Min

and

34HS9802
Rated Current: 5.0
Phase Resistance: 0.65 ohm
Phase Inductance: 2.4 mH
Holding Torque: 490 N.cm Min

Here is his reply:

Motor #1 inductance is 4.1 mH. Motor #2 inductance is 2.4 mH. Both motors have the same holding torque which means both will have the same performance when driven with what they need. So, what do they need?:

Motor #1 has a maximum power supply voltage of V = 32*SQRT(4.1) or 65VDC
Motor #2 has a maximum power supply voltage of V = 32*SQRT(2.4) or 49VDC

Both motors will be identical in performance when driven with their respective maximum power supply voltages. Both voltages are within the specifications of the G203V drive. So how do you choose which one to use?

Model the G203V as a 0.25 Ohm resistor for thermal considerations. This will determine how big of a heatsink you will need.

Motor #1 is rated at 4A. I^2 * R is 4^2 * 0.25 or 4W of drive dissipation.
Motor #2 is rated at 5A. I^2 * R is 5^2 * 0.25 or 6.25W of drive dissipation.

Motor #2 will make the G203V drive dissipate 1.56 times more heat than Motor#1. At this point it seems Motor #2 is better; less drive heat, same performance.

But wait, there are other considerations. 49VDC is awfully close to 48VDC and there are very many inexpensive off-the-shelf 48VDC available. 48VDC is a standard voltage.

65VDC is not a standard voltage. You will pay extra and you will have a difficult time finding an economical 65VDC power supply. Meanwhile the 5A motor run from a 48VDC supply will generate 2.25W more (6.25W - 4W) heat in the G203V. This is a small difference. The G203V heatsink for the 5A will be only a little bit bigger than the one for the 4A motor.

If this was my problem? I would pick the 5A motor only because I could use a standard 48VDC power supply instead of a custom one. I would deal with the increased G203V heat by improving my heatsink. It would be cheaper solution than finding a 65VDC power supply.

Pick the 5A per phase motor.

Mariss

Thats is the 34HS9802

One less thing to think about :) will place order next week.

Im sure this info will help others too.

riesvantwisk

Sat 08 May 2010, 21:21

Personally I didn't had any problems getting a transformation for that voltage. However I am just wondering if motors #2 needs other cables to allow for more current to each engine.
I 'though' however, that marris was asked a couple of years ago the same question and he picked Motor #1, that's why some people here are using the 34HS9801.

However, I think you can't go wrong with any of these steppers.

KenC

Sun 09 May 2010, 23:31

I'm using 86HS9801 which has identical specification as the 34HS9801.
65Vdc is not really an odd voltage. If you are thinking of building an unregulater conventional power supply from transformers. 65Vdc can be derive from a 48Vac secondary winding which is also a standard.
48Vac x SQRT(2) - 1.4V(bridge diode back voltage) = 66.5Vac , with other Voltage losses, you will have a very safe 65V to operate with. 100V capacitors are standard off the shelf product which you can use.
I got 63V from my home brew power supply unit & everthing runs as I expected.i.e. the temperature, speed, no lost steps... etc
I personally prefer running things at lower current rating, hence, higher voltage rating. Especially when running cables that are more then a meter. Others may have their preference.
Hope this helps.

J.R. Hatcher

Sat 15 May 2010, 03:11

One other reason I will go with the 9802 is because I can pull less than 30 volts from one leg of the transformer. This can then be regulated to less volts with simple voltage regulators.

guerd87

Tue 29 June 2010, 06:58

Been doing a heap of reading latley on the MotionKing idea and am looking to get the Motors + Drives from MK. How have they been to order through? good reliable shipping?

Here is what I am looking at:

4 x 34HS9801 Steppers
4 x 2LA860

The Drivers are a copy of the Leadshine drive, that from all accounts, work quite well.

Here is the Manual - http://motionking.com/download/2LA860_Instruction_Rev.E.pdf

One thing I am worried about is the input from the BOB, The MK driver uses 2 pins per input (DIR, PUL and ENABLE) It uses one input from the commong VCC and then the other one is the ground form the BOB, is the correct way around to Mach3? I was thinking that the Mach3 Output would emit Positive pulses and the Common would be the GND?

Here is the pricing of the order direct from MK;

34HS9801, $55.00/pcs, 4pcs ------------------- $220.00
2LA860, $75.00/pcs, 4pcs ----------------------- $300.00
Express Freight Charge --------------------------- $220.00
PayPal Surcharge (5%) --------------------------- $37.00
SUM ------------------------------------------------------ $777.00

Which does seem quite good when comparing to the PK motors and 203v's that I was originally going to use. I mentioned the shipping was quite dear, but they argue that they dont make any profit off the shipping. I did read somewhere that someone had received free shipping of the drivers with the motors, So if i rock up to the party ready to buy they may throw something in.

(I am not saying that MK do bodge the price of shipping, but it seems quite expensive to me)

It has protection on the board, aswell as Built in Current setting. The microstepping is taken care of via a Jumper, what what be a good place to set this at?

Protection includes Over Volt, Over current, Temp and Short Circuit.

Any comments welcome, I am looking to order within 2 weeks

fanefane

Tue 29 June 2010, 08:16

John, you can look here for stepper motors and drivers http://www.driver-motor.com . They have good prices and fast shipping through DHL.

David Bryant

Sun 03 April 2011, 16:21

Hi
I have four 34HS9801-G5 MotionKing stepper motors
I have been trying to work out why my mech mate does not move the correct distance(accordind to theory). So I put a signal generator onto the step input and measured the time for a number of revolutions using the MotionKing driver. (tried DC supply and AC supply to MotionKing Driver, no difference)
I always needed 17/16 more pulses than theory said I needed.
I changed to a gecko drive and repeated the test with a bench power supply and wiring direct to the motor. Still needed 17/16 times more pulses than the expected 200 steps at the motor X 5 for the gear ratio.

My conclusion is that the gearbox is not exactly a 5:1 ratio.
I have not seen any other problems with the motor or drive.
Cheers
David

Gerald D

Sun 03 April 2011, 21:05

David, interesting discovery with that Motionking gearbox...have you asked MK to confirm the ratio?

David Bryant

Mon 04 April 2011, 01:45

Hi Gerald

There answer was:
We are having Tomb-Sweeping Day holidays from Apr-03 ~ Apr-05(Sun ~ Tue). Your email will be read & replied after holidays.
So maybe next week :)

KenC

Mon 04 April 2011, 02:55

I bet 99% of you will be puzzles by this Tomb sweeping thingy:confused:

They meant they are observing the Qing Ming Festival, it is the time of the year on Chinese lunar calendar dedicated for visiting ancestral cemetery. Cleaning & sweeping the tombs is standard operating procedure :)

Its like a big family picnic, where all the family members gather at the cemetery, after the prayer, we will have a big feast & free flowing of choice beverage.

I'll be doing my part tomorrow. :D

David Bryant

Thu 07 April 2011, 00:23

Answer from Motion King
Dear David Bryant,

It's 1/5.32.

Thanks & Best Regards!

Media Lee (Mr)
==============================

MotionKing Motor Industry Co.,Ltd.
http://www.MotionKing.com
sales@MotionKing.com
Tel: 0086-519 8988 6261
Fax: 0086-519 8515 1172
===============================
2011-04-07

So Off to get the calculator out to see if I get it right..........

Gerald D

Thu 07 April 2011, 02:05

There maywill be more decimals after the 5.32****

David Bryant

Thu 07 April 2011, 03:07

We must think alike 25:133
:) took me a while.

David Bryant

Thu 07 April 2011, 04:05

Got the new value installed 87.402 pulses per mm.

As close as I can measure with a rule :) so onto more testing and setups.

Thanks for the input.
David

Gerald D

Thu 07 April 2011, 07:56

Do you have a specsheet or dimensions on that motor/gearbox? I am curious whether the reduction is by a single pair of gears (25:133) with output shaft well offset, or whether there is an intermediate shaft with 2 pairs of gears, with less of an offset.

A single pair would theoretically be the better option with less chance for backlash and less friction. (OM motors have intermediate shaft and 2 gear pairs).

David Bryant

Mon 11 April 2011, 23:23

Hi Gerald
The output shaft is so close to the edge I assume that there will be an intermediate shaft.
Just been fighting with image resolutions and adding photoes.
I think it has been attached...
Ps the adjustable z Limit proxy and target can be seen in the photoes.
Cheers
David

David Bryant

Mon 11 April 2011, 23:27

AH HA The second photo was vertical so was tripping on max size..

smreish

Tue 12 April 2011, 08:56

I like your placement of the Z limit proxy. I bet there is about .020 clearance between that adjustable flag and the spider. Nice work.

Sean

sensei

Sat 20 October 2012, 01:37

Hello Sir,

Thank you for your inquiry about our cnc parts, we'd like to make the best offer as below:

1, 86HS9801 stepper motor: USD48.00/pc. x 4 pcs = USD192.00
2, DM856 stepper driver: USD65.00/pc. x 4 pcs = USD260.00 (DM556 stepper driver: USD58.00/pc. x 4 pcs = USD232.00)
3, Timing pulley 15XL: USD9.00/pc. x 4 pcs = USD36.00
4, Timing pulley 72XL: USD26.00/pc. x 4 pcs = USD104.00
5, Timing belt 300-XL-10 (length-XL-width): USD4.00/pc. 4 pcs = USD16.00
6, HF spindle DTS-23: USD238.00/pc x 1 pc = USD238.00 (HF spindle DTS-27: USD800.00/pc x 1 pc = USD800.00)
7, ER20 collect chuck: USD6.00/pc x 3 pcs (each size is ok) = USD18.00

The leadtime for the production is about 3 weeks.

As for the stepper diver, if you would work it with 86HS9801 stepper motor in high speed, it's recommended to use DM856 as the voltage is higher so the motor can run stable at high speed.

Also for the HF spindle, it's depends on how much power you need, because DTS-23 is 2.2KW and DTS-27 is 4.5KW, if 2.2KW is enough for you, DTS-23 is ok because it's the most pupular sale spindles.

To ship above quantity by DHL to you, the shipping is about USD191.00, with driver DM856 and spindle DTS-23 selected.

Also we have seashipment to Holland every month, if USD191.00 is too high, we can ship the goods by sea to our Holland office first, and then our Holland office send those goods to you by truck, guess that's much cheaper.