The incredible cheap build is building boats #31 - Western Washington, USA

[lumberjack_jeff]

My build is, by necessity and design, intended to be done as cost effectively as possible. Here are the guiding principles;
a) 96x48 cutting area
b) using available materials to whatever degree practical, consistent with reasonable safety.
c) stick as closely as practical to the MechMate gantry.
d) have as small a footprint in the household finances as possible.
e) have the capacity to bootstrap into commercial use
f) rely on open source software as much as possible
g) teach myself new skills

So, with those in mind, as a starting condition my table is constructed of four immensely rigid torsion boxes and two 4x6's x 10' long... made from materials on hand.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/014-1.jpg

The skates under the table are not permanent. They're only there to move the table for painting. The table actually rests on the heads of 6 inverted carriage bolts. On consideration, this foot arrangement will probably be inadequate in the long run.

Here's my kitchen table project. It consists of:
(4) geared Fulling steppers FL86STH80-4208BG7.5. 4.2a 3.3Nm holding torque when wired unipolar. (bought on ebay from a really smart and helpful guy, thanks George!)
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/011.jpg
(4) Deitech 2M982 (http://www.driver-motor.com/ProductContent.aspx?ID=59) (leadshine clone) 80v, 7.8a drivers, currently running half-stepping. Very helpful people, and extremely prompt shipping... from Hong Kong. (It takes less time to get stuff from China than Florida. Go figure.)
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/008-2.jpg
(1) PMDX-122 BOB
(1) homebuilt 57v power supply using rewound MW transformer, rectifier and 22,000uf capacitor.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/012-1.jpg

(1) 1.3ghz compaq running Ubuntu 8.04 and EMC. The computer was a quasi-freebie. My teen son assembled it from parts. In return, I bought him a $30 pair of speakers from the local freecycle magazine. (The speakers sound very nice, and the computer works fine. Win - win. :) )
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/013.jpg

(don't be alarmed by the error messages on the screen... I'll get those sorted out. :) )

I'm not going to make excuses for the flintstone-ish (primitive) state of my kitchen table setup. The only unshielded bulk wire of the appropriate gauge I had on hand for the various interconnects was red. Thus, my power wire is red, my ground wire is red, etc. Kids, don't try this at home.

I am well fused, however. Each driver has a fuse, each 57v power wire is equipped with a 5a fuse, and the main power to the transformer is fused and as a bonus, equipped with a noise suppressor salvaged from the microwave.

And yes, after a day of wiring and head-scratching, I got it running last night. Yay! It's really quite impressive to see the heart of the frankenstein monster spring to life. The internet is the awesomest thing ever, which is a good thing because the drivers came to me without any documentation. They are similar enough in construction that I was able to use educated guessing and the Leadshine documentation to figure out their hookup.

Considering that yesterday, the sum total of my knowledge of this stuff was what I read here, I feel pretty good.

I have no doubt that as the build progresses, I'll discover the outer edge of the cheapskate envelope. When I do, I'll make adjustments.

[smreish]

...I wish I could find timber like that in your table in Florida. (sigh) I miss real lumber.

Your progress looks quite well.
Congrat's on the progress.

Sean

[sailfl]

Jim,

Congratulations on your progress. You are doing a great job.

Keep posting on your progress and more photos.

[LIBBIT]

Hi Jeff,

Very intersting setup, well done. May i ask what software r u using (the screen with the error msg's on).

Regards

John

[lumberjack_jeff]

It is Enhanced Machine Controller (http://www.linuxcnc.org/).

It's the open-source analogue to Mach3, but instead of Windows, it runs on Linux.

I'm still at ground zero on the learning curve, but what I see so far impresses me.

In my case it is running on Ubuntu 8.04

[hennie]

Jeff those motors will give you good service so far mine are still going strong and for the price that i have paid they do the job.

[LIBBIT]

Hi Jeff,

Thank you. Could u give me more detail on the gearboxs pls, or even that George guy for pricing?

Regards

John

[lumberjack_jeff]

George built a router table using Fulling steppers (http://www.fullingmotor.com/jsp/indexshow.do;jsessionid=972B880ACA84E7622DB32CC292 5D4870) but because he was initially suspicious of their reliability, he purchased two full sets when he built his machine. He has found that his extra set was unnecessary and sold his extra set on ebay.

I've heard that their cost new from China is very competitive.

http://www.fullingmotor.com/jsp/productshow.do?id=164

http://www.fullingmotor.com/jsp/productshow.do?id=172

[lumberjack_jeff]

Hennie, do you find that you need to use backlash compensation in your software?

[sailfl]

Jeff,

If you use the springs that Gerald has to pull the motors toward the racks you will not have a problem with backlash.

[lumberjack_jeff]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/001-3.jpg

Couple of new photos. I've sealed the table and added the mdf top. I also sealed the mdf, underside and edges. Mdf is quite porous, and without sealing, all the vacuum will be lost through the material. (Not that I'll have a vacuum system right off the bat, but probably eventually.)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/002-1.jpg

What's significant about this photo? My shop is not very close to my house. I need an internet connection in the shop, but I don't want to bury yet another 100' long wire.
I already have a wireless router in the house, and the signal just barely reaches the shop. Unfortunately, because wireless protocols introduce latency, running a cnc machine requires wired (cat-5) ethernet connectivity.
My solution was to install a wireless bridge into which my shop computer could plug via ethernet. Ordinarily they are quite expensive, and not a function which is enabled in the average consumer router. However, Linksys built their WRT56G line of routers on a Linux OS. Since Linux is open source, Linksys was forced to publish their firmware. Clever developers took this firmware and created upgrades, the most widely-used of which is DD-WRT. The new firmware is a vast improvement, and allows the plain old router to function like ones costing 10x as much.
http://www.geeksaresexy.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/dd-wrt_mainscreen.jpg
I bought a WRT54g router for $20 from someone on Craigslist, updated the firmware using the free software and it works great.
I bring this up because some of you may have the same problem.

[servant74]

I am using several 'game adapters' around my house. In areas where it is hard to get signal, I suggest 'invest' in a high gain antenna (or make an foil 'hat' in the shape of a parabolic mirror and 'point' it to your router.

I put a fairly long ethernet cable from my machine in the shop to the game adapter, and the game adapter where it can get the best reception (away from routers and other motors). It seems to be pretty stable. ... If I really want more connections in the 'shop' (webcam anyone?) a little hard wire switch can work nicely.

Just a thought or so!

[Gerald D]

Great progress Jeff!

[lumberjack_jeff]

I love the summertime, but I don't find myself in the shop as often as I'd like.

We're getting somewhere. The gantry and y-car are both welded up and rolling. These plans are so freakin' awesome! :D

Between Gerald's plans and Castone's excellent laser cut parts and z-plate, I'm happy as can be. :)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/shop001.jpg

Here's my computer...

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/shop003.jpg
...but what's up with that microwave oven with a parallel port? A meal printer? A replicator?

Q) What does a person want in a control enclosure?

A) a box big enough to hold all the electronics and keep good airflow, as inexpensively as possible.

Wouldn't it be cool if you could get one with a window or two in the front to monitor the various LED's and equipped with a powerful fan which blows filtered air directly onto the power transformer? Wouldn't it be even cooler if it was free?

So far, it works nicely, but admittedly I haven't put any significant load on the steppers yet. The PMDX is mounted behind the window in the upper right. This was a pretty fancy microwave, so that window was the original location of the large digital display.

I'll put an e-stop in the front, and another on the left end of the gantry.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/shop007.jpg

"Jeff's cost-saver build", right?

So, I asked the garage sale attendant with the pink hair "How much do you want for the old brown toolbox?"

He said "$12, but I'll take $10, it's full of stuff, I haven't gotten around to dumping it out yet".
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/shop002.jpg

Kizmet? Serendipity? Whatever. I'll take it. It's a Kennedy model 526 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Tool-Box-8-Drawer-Machinist-Chest-Kennedy-New-526_W0QQitemZ250399381653QQcategoryZ41953QQcmdZVie wItemQQ_trksidZp4340.m215QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DSICDD% 26its%3DI%252BC%252BS%252BIA%26itu%3DUS-BWR%252BUCI%252BUCC%252BIT%252BUA%26otn%3D12%26ps% 3D33#ht_1094wt_926) still lined with felt and with about $200 worth of "stuff" inside, drill bits, cutting tools, taps, calipers, measuring tools...

Moral of the story? Never let a kid who would dye his hair pink run your garage sale.

Another garage sale find; $25 for my router. Runs fine, and at 9 amps, it'll get me started while I decide if upgrading to the Milwaukee 5625 or a spindle is the best option.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/shop010.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/shop012.jpg

One suggestion, there's gotta be a better solution to stop the gantry and the car. I used a 3" long section of the cutoff steel angle rail, cut the unground leg down to 1 1/2" and welded a 3" long piece of 1/2" x 1" bar to it, flush with the end of the newly-cut leg. After welding, I ground the welded face flat, and drilled and tapped that ground face.
Hopefully, this makes sense. I think there's a couple of things that could be done to improve the prox sensor/stopper block arrangement.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/shop008.jpg

I'm over $2000 in total cost... but not by much.

[Gerald D]

This is my favourite build! Brilliant! :D

[domino11]

Jeff,
Dont let the wife know you are having this much fun. It is supposed to be work right? Excellent progress and ingenuity !

[Castone]

Jeff you are the man! It looks great!

[lumberjack_jeff]

Leo, your parts have been perfect.

I come from a manufacturing background, and I am amazed at the tight manufacturing tolerances on the parts you supplied.

Very well done, and thank you.

[lumberjack_jeff]

Muahahaha!

No photos yet, my work area is still an embarrassing jumble of bailing wire and duct tape.

But it's working! The kids now understand what I've been doing. :)

No router mounted yet, but I did do the obligatory spring-mounted-pen doodles of the EMC logo.

Yay!

[sprayhead]

I have to say I'm really looking forward to see your BBB eating through stuff!

PICS PICS PICS!! VIDS VIDS VIDS!! Hear that like a Hulligans shout.

Your build has been very encouraging to me, thanks for that. Absolutelly Inspiring!

Francis

[domino11]

Jeff,
Whats wrong with duct tape? Nascar uses it! :) Although its 200MPH duct tape. Good Luck.

[lumberjack_jeff]

So far my duct tape appears to be only functional up to 500 IPM. :D

[lumberjack_jeff]

A couple of photos.

My cable management is suboptimal, but it'll do for now. I used 1/2" PEX pipe to keep the cables from dangling. Cable chains are a "phase later activity"

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/003-4.jpg

As mentioned elsewhere, I had to do some debugging of pinion set-screw issues, as well as teaching myself what the "touch off" function does in EMC.

The upper text was the best I could get, but by then my pen was nearly out of ink. :D

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/002-2.jpg

Sadly, I broke my $25 router by being stupid. Really bummed me out, too. The cables come out of the cap perpendicular to the shaft, and I didn't allow enough space between the router and the plate to account for them. When I over-tightened the router against the z-plate, I appear to have misaligned the rotating assembly. :mad:

I'll take it apart and see if I can do anything, but it's a long-shot.

I guess I have to go router-shopping. :(

I'm running 20t pinion, a 7.5:1 gearbox and half-stepping. So far the fastest I can go is 277 ipm without losing steps. I'm going to try it full-stepping. With that combo, at full stepping my resolution should be something like .002. I would be surprised if curves are significantly rough at that resolution.

[domino11]

Jeff,
I would think you would be better off in the microstepping range rather than full stepping. What is your interest in using the full step mode?

[Gerald D]

For the Deitech drive to emulate a Gecko's microstepping, the Deitech DIP switches must be:
SW5 = 1
SW6 = 1
SW7 = 1
SW8 = 0
which gives 2000 steps per motor rev.

[BartDeckers]

Hi Jeff,

Are you shure the type of your stepper motors is "Fulling steppers FL86STH80-4208BG7.5"
I checked on the Fulling website and found only a direct motor without gears for this type. Can you give us a price for these motors?

Regards,

Bart

[BartDeckers]

Jeff,

I found your link to the geared motors, overlooked it at first. :)
Could you give a price indication?

Bart

[lumberjack_jeff]

I got mine from Ebay, but the steppers are available from the usa distributor. (http://fullingmotorusa.com/default.aspx)

[lsalme]

Great build thread Jeff and congratulations on movement. I built a Joes 4x4 cnc over the winter and just recently noticed from the cnczone that some NW builders were building some MechMates so i am making a point of browsing the forum. I like that your using EMC which i have not had a chance to try yet.

[lumberjack_jeff]

Hi LS!

There are several northwesterners building MechMates.

I really like EMC, but I haven't found Ubuntu to be a complete solution. I haven't found any good Cad or CAM programs for it. Sheetcam is great, and I downloaded the linux version of it, but I haven't gotten it to run.

I spent the day surfacing my tabletop, but I found that my router clamp setup made the end result entirely unsatisfactory, so I spent the afternoon building a v0.2 clamp setup.

I'm hoping it'll be solid enough to make a v1.0 clamp from hdpe or aluminum.

I had no idea how much horrible, nasty dust mdf creates. Yuk.

As soon as I get logos applied, I'll post photos.

[bradm]

Ubuntu, and Linux in general are unlikely to be complete solutions for the design stage. You can do a reasonable job (for 2D work) using QCAD and dxf2gcode, but it takes some effort.

I'm currently using a combination of the above, plus Sketchup with a variety of plugins.

[lumberjack_jeff]

Have you tried g-simple?

I've used Ace Converter, it seems similar to dxf2gcode in capability, but my success has been limited.

I had better luck with the free download of sheetcam, but 180 lines of gcode is a tough constraint.

g-simple sounds very much like sheetcam... for one thing it allows pocketing. I have a couple of small relief-engraved signs that friends are asking for, but neither Ace Converter or the freebie sheetcam can do it.

Also, I highly recommend nc-plot.

[lumberjack_jeff]

Blue paint?
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/009.jpg
Check.

Cutting on it's own power?
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/011-1.jpg
Check.

Making dust?
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/010-1.jpg
At risk of understatement, check.

Logos?
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/008-3.jpg
Check.

Thanks to everyone who helped along the way, including George, Leonard and especially Gerald.

Bottom line? I haven't totalled it up exactly, but about $2500 excluding generally-useful tools (such as a $99 steel cutting saw) but including two routers, bits and a dust collector.

Speaking of which, Harbor Freight retail stores are currently discounting their 2hp unit $70. When I get back to civilization on Monday, I'll build my dust foot.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/012-2.jpg

[Doug_Ford]

Congrats Jeff. She looks great.

[Gerald D]

For only $2500?? I will take two please!! :D

Great job Jeff!

[jhiggins7]

Jeff,

Congratulations on a great build.:) Inspiring! Low cost and FAST too!:D

The updated Builder's Log is here (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AttqjIPMBEXKcExveGc4d3U0V25zQmMyX1U1eUVhU Xc&hl=en).

[domino11]

Jeff,
Awesome build. :)

[Kobus_Joubert]

Well done.

[lumberjack_jeff]

Here are some photos of a boat model project we are currently working on.

The plans came from a well known marine architect, we are currently building quarter-scale trade show display models of his 16' outboard runabout, with the anticipation of offering kits (of both the model and the fullsize boat) starting early in the new year.

I'll update you with more when I can. :)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/IMGP0425.jpg
Here I am putting together the assembly jig for aligning the bulkheads. (the fullsize boat will have a similar jig, just bigger)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/IMGP0457.jpg
Here's the boat with a couple of hull panels stitched to (and around) the bulkheads. Building a stitch-and-glue boat is a bit like reassembling a banana from the peels.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/IMGP0433.jpg
Here's an assembled model kit showing how the panels are stitched together and the epoxy fillets are applied. This model was actually made first, the one shown in the photos above will be completely finished. This one will be left as-is.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/IMGP0434.jpg


There you go Nils. :D

The photos are primarily for the purpose of creating an illustrated kit assembly manual. We want to make our kits as foolproof as possible, since I volunteered to take care of the after-sale support. :o

[lumberjack_jeff]

Strip-molded canoes are built around a frame. Most of the work in fact, is the construction of that assembly jig.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/001-6.jpg

A mechmate makes this easy. The entire assembly frame, including the stringers to set the bulkhead spacing and alignment, the keys to hold the stringers in place as well as some u-shaped pieces to clamp the strips to the frame sections was cut from a single 4x8 sheet of OSB (about $6 USD).

OSB doesn't hold fasteners very well, so it was cut out with keys to hold the assembly together. The frame is freestanding without any glue or fasteners. The only glue is the RTV I used to affix the jig to my "table" after laser alignment.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/002-3.jpg

The table of offsets for the frame sections (let's call 'em bulkheads despite the fact that they don't play any role in the finished boat) yielded curves which were not very fair. I plugged the coordinates which describe those curves into a curve fitting program which made a much smoother bulkhead shape.

The hull is from a western red cedar that fell behind my house 2 years ago. I sawed it up into 5/4 boards, then into 1/4" strips which had a bead and cove applied to allow the strips to nest against one another to avoid visible gaps.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/005-1.jpg

It's not yet finished, I have to add a laminated outer stem, a seat and a sheer clamp (board around the sheer to stiffen the edge). I will then epoxy the entire thing inside and out and apply a sheet of 6 oz fiberglass cloth. I think I'll paint the bottom half (to hide most of the mistakes) and finish the top and inside bright.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/003-5.jpg

[riesvantwisk]

Jeff,

one word 'Amazing!' :)
Great Job

Ries

[jehayes]

Jeff: Who designed the stitch and Glue boat? Thanks for the pics. Joe

[lumberjack_jeff]

Hi Joe,

I can't say yet, because the business stuff still hasn't been completely worked out.

I'll let everyone know when the plan is in place. I will say that you'll probably see these models at the Seattle Boat Show at Lake Union, January 29th thru February 6th. :D

I am extremely impressed with his design, the pieces fit together perfectly.

[jehayes]

Let me know where and when I can see them.

I am hoping to start on a Core Sound 20 (see here: http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/cs20.htm) once I get my MM running (early in the New Year?) so I will be very interested in sharing notes with you before cutting the sheets of (very expensive) marine ply. :D

In fact, that is why I started on the steel MM project, to build some wooden boats!

Joe on Whidbey

[lumberjack_jeff]

One of the plans I've looked carefully at is the Core Sound 17... a really nice design. My only gripe is I want something I can row as well as sail.

Have you looked at Welsford designs? I'm really partial to the Walkabout. (but the Pathfinder and Navigator are great as well)

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/walkabout/index.htm

There are so many excellent designs out there, it's hard to choose.

[jehayes]

The walkabout is a nice looking boat. One can row a CS-17 easily but the design is not optimized for that. BTW - have you seen the "wavy scarf" joint and, if so, have you figured out the "G" code to make them? (See: http://seaside5592.blogspot.com/2005/01/new-variation-on-stepped-scarf.html) Thanks Joe

[lumberjack_jeff]

I've done a fair amount of head scratching about how to do the wavy stepped scarf joint, thinking that it was a panacea. When I talked at length about scarf options with the designer of the models above, his conclusion is that on composite hulls of 1/2" thickness or less, tapered scarfs are a waste of effort at best, or at worst, the transition point on either end of the scarf becomes a new weak point. All that glue perpendicular to the panel also makes a "hard spot" which doesn't flex as fairly as the rest of the panel.

Once you sheath the hull in cloth, the benefits of a very large glue joint kind of go away.

He's pretty down on hull scarfs. He saves scarfing for timbers and rails.

On the fullsize kit, the hull panels will be joined puzzle-piece style similar to the PT skiff http://www.ptwatercraft.com/ptwatercraft/PT_SKIFF.html

[lumberjack_jeff]

Here's the finished canoe.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/023.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/056.jpg
This guy (my eldest son) weighs about 190#.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/035.jpg
The canoe was built primarily with my 11 year old in mind. It works great for him.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/042.jpg
The camera adds 20 pounds that the canoe could ill-afford. ;)

I recommend this design for anyone who weighs less than 150#.

I hope to have some photos of the big boat soon, it's going together perfectly, but here's a sample.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/013-1.jpg

[javeria]

those are beautiful pics jeff

[Travish]

Beautiful work Jeff! Amazing to see what you have done and kept things very practical for what you do. Impressive to say the least! keep up the great work and thanks for sharing your passion with us. Seeing your photo's helps motivate those of us who are building dive back into the garage/shop and keep at it until it's built.

Thanks again,
Travis

[lumberjack_jeff]

I just installed timing belt speed reducers (4:1) using the belts and pulleys from This (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=46148&postcount=4) post. Be aware that the small pulley is equipped with shields, and with the belt shown, the center distance *just barely* allows the two pulleys to fit... I turned the small pulley down 0.10" on the shield od.

I used Keling KL34H280_45_4A (http://www.kelinginc.net/KL34H280_45_4A.pdf) steppers.

I haven't checked the upper performance boundary yet, but I'm easily getting 500 ipm, and the only perceptible backlash is a function of belt tension. :D

All told, it cost about $400.

BTW, I'm still building boats (http://www.westsatsop.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=62:west-satsop-drifter&catid=47:driftboat&Itemid=29). Life is good.

[Gerald D]

Good to see you Jeff. Interesting boat - what are the aft-facing "horns" up fwd?

[Alan_c]

Knee braces to brace a standing fisherman according to the webpage.

[sprayhead]

Hi Jeff,

Why did you changed from your geared motors? was it only because of the backlash? Did the motors give you other problems?

Regards,
F.

[lumberjack_jeff]

Good to see you Jeff. Interesting boat - what are the aft-facing "horns" up fwd?

Nice to see you as well, I hope your new endeavors are succeeding.

In the northwest US, boats built for the purpose of "drifting" (e.g. navigating rapids) evolved to fish technically challenging rivers.

Here's a good example of the type: Driftboat kits. (http://www.montanaboatbuilders.com/kitsplans_king.htm)

I think I'm going to revisit the forward deck area design. Close, but not quite what I want - the knee braces will probably be a bit low for the 6' 2" buyer.

[lumberjack_jeff]

Hi Jeff,

Why did you changed from your geared motors? was it only because of the backlash? Did the motors give you other problems?

Regards,
F.

Two issues: first was the backlash, which was only a problem for our puzzle splices and when cutting aluminum. They were otherwise fine for sign work and the like.

The second was my attempt to use 1/2" pinions on a 12mm motor shaft. Suboptimal.

The new drives are much faster, which is good, but I don't expect it'll make a huge difference in how long it takes to do a project, since I'm speed limited by what my router can cut and what a router bit will tolerate.

It's a slow process of optimization. I think I've eliminated 95% of the suck now. :D

[lumberjack_jeff]

http://www.westsatsop.com/

Launching day. (http://www.westsatsop.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=64:launching-day&catid=41:pelicanoshrimper&Itemid=29)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/west%20satsop%20boatworks/IMGP2770.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/west%20satsop%20boatworks/IMGP2780.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/west%20satsop%20boatworks/IMGP2795.jpg

[smreish]

That is one fantastic looking PNW vessel! Nice high sides, plenty of power.....ahh

[Gerald D]

A real practical functional boat - nice job!

[javeria]

Humsafar! - nice - very nice! - thats URDU word, when I build my hovercraft - this is what I will name it to - hope the wife is ok with having a machine with that name. LOL

[lumberjack_jeff]

Humsafar! - nice - very nice! - thats URDU word, when I build my hovercraft - this is what I will name it to - hope the wife is ok with having a machine with that name. LOL

I can't take credit for the beautiful finish work. Humsafar (= "Travelling companion", right Javiera?) was finished by Sam Devlin (http://www.devlinboat.com/) in his shop.

It's a great design and is a very practical PNW boat. Not shown in the photos is the stainless crab-pot puller. It's an awesomely proper little workboat for which Sam is now offering kits.

Next is something completely different. We're in the process of cutting panels for a 48' power yacht. Seriously.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/IMGP2738.jpg

200 sheets of ply. :eek:

[HomeMadeCnc]

I do plan on building a boat, just not that size! Its nice to see someone using their machine to its full potential. Thanks for posting the pictures

Tim

[jehayes]

Jeff: Nice to see the output. Thanks for sharing.

Joe #53 on Whidbey

[lumberjack_jeff]

Public Service Announcement:

One of the purposes of this build was to test the lower cheapskate boundary.

What didn't work:
1) my geared steppers had .010 - .015 backlash. Too much for my application. I don't recommend them.
2) inexpensive routers.

The cheap solutions that did work:
1) EMC
2) an old, cheap computer
3) rewound MW transformer for a power supply
4) chinese stepper controllers (I'm sure that Geckos are better, but these do work)
5) MW oven for a control enclosure. I consider it a statement of principle. :D
6) PEX pipe for cable management. It treats the cables gently with very large radii bends. I don't think I'm going to upgrade to cable chains on this machine.
7) inexpensive wire. My cable is 26ga (IIRC) and has a foil shield.
8) bootstrapping. The first router clamp was a hose clamp affair. V2 was made of MDF. V3 was a marine plywood setup with an improved dust collection foot. V4 was aluminum. V5 is scrapyard aluminum holding a porter-cable 75182 router. (which was worth every penny).
9) Lumberyard table. Steel is better but this works okay.
10) No vacuum hold down. Screws work great. The first toolpath is an array of marks to locate holddown screws. It adds maybe 90 seconds to each cycle.
11) Sheetcam. It's perfect for what I do.

[zumergido]

hi jeff can you put more pictures of your machine? so will be easy to see your recomendations.
tnks

[lumberjack_jeff]

The overall appearance hasn't changed much since this post (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=29208&postcount=33). Is there anything specifically that you'd like to see?

[zumergido]

photos of your "cheap solutions"
Pex pipe
transformer
wires
i get many of the ideas but there is people trying to reduce cost since some part are expensive but easly replasable with cheap ones.
since iam in this forum with this proyect i became aware that the MM is oversised on some parts .. in the good way. this machine will last almost for ever.
thnks jeff

[LIBBIT]

Hi Jeff,

Could u pls share the chinese stepper controllers details with us. I'm thinking in the same direction?

Tks, John

[lumberjack_jeff]

The controllers were these
http://www.driver-motor.com/ProductContent.aspx?ID=59

the documentation was poor but I eventually figured it out and they've been working reliably for nearly two years.

After using a 5x10 prt shopbot, I'm considering building another machine, but it will use more pro-grade stuff (read: Geckos)

[lumberjack_jeff]

Fernando,
The main feature of MechMate (imho) is "oversized". I recently had the need to use a shopbot, and although the spindle was nice, I found the structural rigidity was lacking and the software controller idiosyncratic.

Don't change anything about the car, z-axis or gantry.

[MAC2009]

If I may drag you back to 2009 when you said immensely rigid torsion boxes, it implies they are hollow. Are they some sort of glue lam or four sides glued to gather? And while the Q's are flying the 4 X 6 beams, solid peaces or glued up,
are they stable in torsion and twist

MAC

[lumberjack_jeff]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y58/lumberjack_jeff/007-5.jpg

[lumberjack_jeff]

Mac: The sides and ends are comprised of a 2x3 framework onto both sides of which is glued a continuous cementboard panel (Hardi-panel here in the US).

The solid air dried hemlock beams have proven to be stable enough, although kiln dried lumberyard beams would probably be less suitable than a glu-lam. In order of preference:
steel--> glu-lam beam--> air dried timber--> kiln dried timber

The air drying was important because the beams were acclimated to my shop for a year or two prior to use. The dual pieces of angle iron (the rail is bolted to a 3x3x1/4 angle which is in turn lag bolted to the beam) effectively lock in the warp present when it was initially built, and twist hasn't been apparent - although when you surface the spoilboard the net effect of any deflection is small - the material being cut will flex to conform.

[MAC2009]

Jef thanks for the info. I do like your approach I'm going to look up Hardi-panel.

Your Boat is coming along very nicely!!!
I have a long time friend, we have spent the last four years refitting his 46' Morgan ketch.
I have been on and off the last two with medical. At any rate we are destine to leave about the 15th of July. I for about 2 - 3 months him and his family are planing for 18 mounts. Through the Grate Lakes and south to the Caribbean

It is a good thing this has a spell cker or I would be totally incontinent, even then I spell the wrong word right.

It is good to see work done on wooden boats. I in days past raced an old wood Lighting
here in Minnesota.


MAC

[lumberjack_jeff]

I wish it was my boat. I'm simply contracted to cut out all the panels for the boatbuilder.

... but it's still a good gig. We provide good value. His parts are all dead accurate, he doesn't have to dedicate all the shop space to lofting and cutting, he doesn't have to scarf the panels, the parts are delivered just in time and his project generates far less scrap.

[Alan_c]

Jeff, how are you doing the scarfing, what is your setup?

[lumberjack_jeff]

There's a long thread on the topic here (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=39316&postcount=19).

Our puzzle splices look a lot like the bottom example.

[cornbinder23]

My first post here, just wanted to say great job to the builder, looks great and what I intend mine to be doing once its built. Sam Devlin is a great guy and very devoted to what he does, a true craftsman, I am flying over to brooklin maine to take his stitch and glue course June 10 I am really looking forward to it
I am a fellow NW guy, Washington

Has any one seen Sams new facility?

JT

[lumberjack_jeff]

Thanks JT, and welcome to the group!
Yes, Sam's new shop is really nice. He finally has room to build some of the spectacular projects he does. (That's his shop in the photo above).

Have a great time in Maine, and take photos!

[cornbinder23]

Last I talked to Sam at the Seattle boat show he mentioned he had purchased a...ahem.....shopbot
Have you seen it and is it working for his purposes?
I am on the fence as to what I want to do, ie: purchase a pre-made router or build my own, I have a mill that I converted to cnc, and a lathe that I converted to cnc so I am fluent with the electronics and software, I am an engineer by trade read(glorified welder with an electrical license) so the fab work is definitely in my realm of expertise.
Which is why I am taking his stitch and glue course as it will force me to step out of my comfort zone ie: metalworking
I dont plan on building boats for a living but there are a few designs out there that I would like to build for myself (think small)
I have seen plenty of router designs and am active on the cnc zone forums
I really like the structure of the mechmate compared to other designs that I have seen, any advice?

JT

[smreish]

JT,

It all comes down to timing.
Both machines perform similar to each other. I feel that the MM is better performer all things considered since you may customize the deck, spoilboard, z-stroke, speed, dust control as your application needs.

If you need something today, to make money today - then a premade, or used machine may be the best value for you.

The cost for a standard BOT with 3.25HP spindle is about 13K plus shipping. The MM equiv will cost you almost exactly 1/2 that with a 3rd party spindle. Which makes the MM a heck-of-a-deal.

Regardless of choice, the goal is to make money.

The support group of MM'rs is here for you!

Sean

[lumberjack_jeff]

Yes JT, Sam has a 5x10 shopbot. Because my MechMate is 4x8, I recently used it to cut out (the aptly named) 5x10 skiffs that you'll be assembling at the wooden boat school.

I really liked the spindle, but I found the shopbot to be less rigid than my machine (the tube steel gantry on the MechMate is better, as is the longer and wider wheelbase on the y-carriage, and the bigger v-rollers.), and I also found the controller to be idiosyncratic - for instance, I couldn't make sheetcam output useful SB code (although I'm sure it can be done).

It's a perfectly serviceable tool. If I didn't have a preexisting bias toward MechMate and EMC2, I'd probably have been perfectly happy with it.

[KenC]

Sean & Jeff,
That is a totally bias comments... I'll not say anything different myself :D

I do agree if you need a machine in a hurry to make money, buying a pre-made machine helps. With MM, the built is the easy part, there are just so much more learning curve to climb & fine-tuning.

Not forgetting that there are a heap of modification, upgrades & customisation choices to make AFTER the built. Just because you can.

[cornbinder23]

Well I dont exactly need a machine right away as I am not really trying to make money with it although that would be a nice benefit, I originally got into cnc as just a means for another hobby, but I havent touched that hobby since I started with the cnc haha!
I am probably going to go with the mechmate as machine builds are my new favorite hobby!:D
And I got a new welder to try out
I have built a couple of stepper based systems, but would like to incorporate servos into this project, I have some of the electronic components already ie: power supply, geckos, smoothstepper, etc...
Looking forward to this epic build, wont be able to start for a little while (gotta sell some other toys to finance this one), but I will be sure to keep an updated build log here.

JT

[servant74]

Jeff,

Thought I would check back on your build after watching you build it (through the forum). I did notice you found some goods and bads listed about your choices. Thanks for the updates!

If you did it over, would you go with the laminated beams again?

...

Talking to the ones questioning doing a build vs buy decision (sorry if this is enabling hijacking your thread). ... The best argument I hear to build (for commercial use) is to 'know your machine' and make it as you want it. The other side of that coin is it provides time to turn into sales. If a build takes 9 months, and delivery of a commercial one takes 2 months, that is 7 months of making deliveries to customers to make up the $$ difference in sales (and hopefully profit). The choice depends on you and your business model.

As a hobbiest, building a tool is as satisfying as using one. But that takes a different kind of attitude than the one that is less $$ constrained and wants to 'just use it'.

But again, those are just my thoughts. ... Jack

[smreish]

Jack,
There are a few folks, myself included, that have built a MM from scratch - after receiving all the parts and pieces in a very short period of time. If you have a pile of parts, a 2 week build is possible - as long as you stay focused.

Best,
Sean

[sailfl]

Jack,

You can build a machine cheaper than you can buy one and you can make it the way you want it.

[KenC]

Building one isn't always cheaper... To me it is because Gerald gave me the opportunity to say "Because I can." The rest are just bonus & excuses.

[bradm]

"Cheaper" depends on your skill level, and how much your time is worth. As Sean points out, an experienced builder can make a MechMate in about 80 hours; if it's your first time with some of the techniques or technologies, I think I'd time budget double that. Whether a month of your time is worth more or less than the price difference between pre-built and parts is up to you.

Of course, if you do build, you also get a priceless education thrown into the mix, and that comes at no extra cost to you.

[Gerald D]

When you buy a machine from a typical vendor, you are still going to spend a number of hours unpacking, laying on power and other services, setting it up, levelling and kicking it into life. When things go slightly wrong, there are hours spent on filling out support tickets, hanging on the phone, leaving messages.... If you want to modify the hardware a little, you have to wait a year for the warranty to expire :)

Anyway, the point is that a purchased machine is seldom just plug and play and you'r away at full speed.

[KenC]

If you want to modify the hardware a little, you have to wait a year for the warranty to expire :)


This is unbearably painful!!! :D

[lumberjack_jeff]

If you did it over, would you go with the laminated beams again?

When I built my MechMate, I didn't have anything more than a vague idea of how to make money with it. If I had to do it again from that starting point, I'd still do it as cheaply as possible with available materials. In my case, that meant large solid timbers that I had on hand. It's been very serviceable.

That said, now that I know more about what I'm doing (and have a solid business plan for it) my next machine will be all steel.

The one thing that I didn't mention previously, partly because it isn't a problem for the work I do, is that a wooden table grows and shrinks with the climate. The way this is designed, it isn't a problem for X and Y axes, but it does manifest on Z. When I surface my table, it rarely takes off the same amount in the middle as it does on the ends - due to the movement of the wooden crossmembers supporting the spoilboard.

As for the rest of your point, most of us don't have a instant revenue stream associated with a machine. In that case, the time spent building can also be used to develop a business plan.

[cornbinder23]

It was nice to meet you at the wooden boat festival Jeff.
You had a very nice booth set-up and display
I am building a little rubens nymph for my son this weekend, he is very interested in learning how to sail so this is an inexpensive entry for him, he is also enjoying helping with the build as well
I got a great deal on some epoxy and supplies at the show so I am staying busy now

Jayson

[lumberjack_jeff]

Thanks Jayson, I hope you enjoyed the show as much as we did. The weather and the company were both outstanding.
http://www.westsatsop.com/images/boats/litl_coot/litl%20coot%20model.jpg
Bolger was one of the best designers ever, post photos of your progress!