Wrestling with Aspire on some carvings - Truckee, CA

[inventall]

Sorry for no other post but I’ve been busy. I started building 20 days ago.
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Thanks for all the help.:)

[Alan_c]

Doesn't look like you needed any :)

Congrats, welcome and lets have some details...

[Gerald D]

Good grief Pete! Did you get any sleep?? :eek:

Here (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=22591&postcount=14) was your first post. Amazing!! :D

[inventall]

Thanks Alan and Gerald

Not much sleep at all.:D
Will add more soon I took many pics and videos now have to sort through them. Here is some video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3yK6aPXiF4

[javeria]

WoW - in 20 days - thats a record I think !

I have more than 20 months on mine :D and still counting :D

[smreish]

Congratulations Pete.
That's about the right amount of time - 120 hours of time to build a complete MM.

The controller form factor with the G540 inside is really a nice feature as long as all the RF and such is not an issue.

Well done.
Sean

[inventall]

Took a break from my day job and worked on it till it was cutting. I am home in NY now for the next two weeks, I can’t work on it:(, at least I can talk about it.:)

The table is 8ft(2500mm) by 5ft(1500mm). It will cut over the front edge by about 6 inches (152mm) for edge cutting and mortising (X is a total of 8ft 6 inch(2652). The Z-slide is about 11inches (280), X beams are C10x 15.3# (20ft (6000) cut at 45’s gives two 10ft 6in(3200).

Ground the rails with JR's skate grinder. Thanks JR. That was a bit tedious. Used 2" X 2"1/2" (50 X 63)angle and used cut offs for y-tube thread backer (forgot who thought of that but it was slick:cool:)and for the cable chain support instead of the 3/8" (10)round. Also used a 4" x 1/4" x 36" (100x6x900) piece of cold rolled steel for z-slide and used the skate to grind it.

Bolted together table, the ribs up the side of the channel are 1.5inch solid square 9 inches (228) long cut at 45’s drilled and tapped for one ½” bolt, and welded to the C3 x 4.3# channel. They help keep the main beams from rolling over and eliminate the extra side bracing to the legs. Look cool too.:cool: a lot easier to clean under i would think.

The control box houses the 35v power supply the Gecko G540 a Dell PIII mother board computer power supply and hard drive. No relay for the router (5620 Milwaukee) yet. There is a USB port installed on the gantry and a mount for the numerical pad as a bump remote. E stops are household light switches (cheep). I used cheep foil shielded wire (will see how long it last:confused:).

The Machine is in Truckee CA, in the mountains still too cold there to paint. Still have 3 ft of snow in front yard but that’s down from a high point of 11 feet of snow:eek:. So I will have to take it back apart at some point:mad: to paint it blue and add stickers:).

[inventall]

I also must confess I am a complete newbie to CNC:o. I am a car mechanic, turned diesel mechanic, in to house building, to fine carpentry. So sort of the "jack of all trades". I did a lot of reading before I started building. But now I think I found what I want to do when I grow up.:D

[inventall]

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[domino11]

Pete,
Nicely done! But it seems your first couple of pics disappeared.

[hennie]

Pete it seems that you spend more time in the workshop than in the house(having your meals on the MM ):)You can fit a matress on the MM table you probably spent some nights sleeping in the workshop:D

[Gerald D]

Heath, are you sure that some pics disappeared?

[javeria]

Hi pate - I was there is Truckee last year when I visited Lake Tahoe - its such a nice place and you are blessed to be a resident there - were you there when there was that big fire there -

love the way you have put your machine together!

Have fun

Irfan

[inventall]

Hennie,
Didn't need the mattress, I didn't sleep:D But I did have to slow down every few days to eat:eek:.

Javeria
I was not here for the fire I have only been living in Truckee for the last 4 months remodeling a house that should have been leveled and replaced. But yea Truckee is a great place as long as it is not a ski weekend. The down side is every time I need anything I have to drive 45min (if it's not snowing) to Reno NV.

I live in Hopewell Jct, NY. I have been commuting to CA to work. I built the machine there for a few reasons, like to help with finishing the house but mostly because I couldn't wait. :D

[domino11]

Gerald,
Yup they are back now! :) When I posted, the pics in post #1
were only showing up as file names, the rest of the photos were visible though. :confused:

[Gerald D]

If they only show as file names, it means you probably hadn't logged in yet? Anyway, I will run a mysql repair just in case.

[domino11]

Gerald,
No I was logged in, I have seen that before.
It was only in post #1 that showed the file names only,
Post #9 was showing pics fine, but it seems to be fine now. :)

[inventall]

Going back in time....
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Unloading the 300lb beam by my self
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Cutting the rails down, did not have the skate yet.

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[inventall]

Well I know I have been slacking in the forum entry area for awhile. But I have still been reading a lot. Went home to New York for awhile now I am back in CA with my Machine.:) Have not had much time to play with it. As I have had to work.:mad:

So I need to get a good cam program and I am looking in to Aspire as I have Customers willing to pay for some of the things that can be made with it. (3d carvings) I made some carving with Aspire and I am having problems with them. I have started a threadhttp://www.vectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=6528) on the Aspire Forum and I haven’t got anywhere yet.

I was wondering is anyone using Aspire with a MM, if so any problems with V-carve lettering corners or 3d tool paths?

[myozman]

Pete, I'm using Aspire with my machine and Mach3. I'm trying to remember if I had the problem your showing, but I don't think so. I have direct drive steppers, not geared. There has to be something in your Mach3 settings. If I get time tonight, I'll copy screen my settings for you.

[javeria]

Is the router clamped properly - chk for it two time, then chk if your V rollers on the Z axis are holding the plate tight enough. I had a similar problem accounting to a loose V roller.

[inventall]

Thanks Mike I would appreciate that. I have a feeling that it is something in Mach causing the problem. I have been prepping a new computer for my machine, (Need more memory and faster CPU to run Aspire). this morning I was thinking that I should hook up the new computer with a fresh Mach 3 installed. Now I am having problems with that:mad:. The steppers sound as if they are Grinding. I hooked up the old computer and they run smooth.:confused: As far as I can tell all the settings are the same.

I checked the play of the router and the only play I can see is from the backlash of the geared motors. (I don't have a dial indicator here it's in NY). Some one else told me the problem could be from backlash too, but I would think it would be inconstant.

[myozman]

Pete,

Can't say these will work for you, but this is what I'm using. Let me know if this helps.

[bfauska]

Pete,
I don't have anything to help with the main problem, but it dawns on me that your parallel port may be set to the wrong communication type in the BIOS. I don't remember what it is supposed to be, but I know I had to change it on my install.

[sailfl]

Pete

Have you tuned your motors?

I would like to know what your printer port setting are.

[inventall]

:mad::mad::confused::mad::confused::confused:( smiley face banging his head in to the wall)

Must have reinstalled Mach 5 or 6 times not always the same problem. But now atleast I am back to were I was a few hours ago.

Did have the BIOS problem earlier today when I could not get the Charge Pump to activate but now it's set to EPP 378

Mike thanks but my set up in general config is the same. My port's and pins are not the same as I Am running the G540 not the PMDX BOB

Have not tuned the motors yet!!! I will. But why with one old PC smooth newer one makes them Growl like the gears are loose. (there not)

With old PC using Mach Wizards I got perfect cuts Squared my gantry to the point that I could see no difference between the 2 sheets.

Note the old PC is a DELL P3 1.0ghz with 256k RAM!!!
new one is refurbished IBM P4 3.0ghz with 1gig ram

Nils what printer port settings the bios or the pins to the G540??

Thanks so much for the help guys.

[inventall]

I gave up on the new computer for the moment. Wanted to watch the machine work for a little while.:)

So the guys from aspire tell me that the 3d carving example that they give you with the trial version of Aspire is not for you to actually cut!! They apologized and said they are going to remove it for the next version. But they gave me the correct files of the address sign to cut. The rough pass went great! Started the finish cut and almost set the board on fire!!! I guess that when they tell you it’s a 1/8 ball-nose bit they mean 1/8 all the way up. The bit I was using is a 1/8 inch ball straight cut (not spiral) and tapers to the ¼ inch shank about 5/8 inch up from the ball, Which hit the side of a steep shoulder and burnt write threw it. (Never missing a step, good motors:cool:).

Tell me guys could I still have backlash problems or motor tuning problems???

[myozman]

Pete,

If you want to remove most of those lines in the leaf, you need to change your stepover in your finishing pass to 8-10%. The lower the stepover, the longer the cut will take. But with lower stepover, you reduce sanding to almost nothing.

[Doug_Ford]

That looks beautiful to me Pete.

[inventall]

The file was sent to me from Aspire I could not play with any of the tool-paths. So I don't know what the step-over is set to, but it did not seem like much(less than 1/2). I will email them and ask. While it was cutting I tried slowing the feed rate down to 30% for awhile, than 160%, I could not tell the difference.

Doug, I have not seen enough cuts made with a MM up close to know how good this is or not. (Never seen another CNC machine to compare it to in person either.) The only thing I don’t like are the rounding of the corners in the V-carve lettering.

I remember reading a post from Gerald about making a MM test cut program to test your machine was that ever done??

[Gerald D]

That V-carving is not great, but there are a lot of factors to be checked....

- First thing to check is if your cutter has a sharp point. Sounds obvious, but there are v-cutters that have small flat tips and there is no way that they can give sharp corners.

- the accel rate set up in your Config, Motor Tuning.

- the "stiffness" of your machine. Comes from a good mechanical setup and elimination of slackness.

I wouldn't waste time on checking out the software/programming for the v-carved letters - Vectric's stuff is 100% there.

There are no test cut programs that I am aware of - would still love to see them.

With a sharp tipped cutter, the z=0 height must be set on (or above) the material surface. If the z=0 were set below the surface, you would get radiused corners at the surface and the sharp corners would be lower down (you would be able to sand the surface down to reveal the sharp corners).

[sailfl]

Pete,

When you have the trial version you are limited in what you can do because they limit the code. But I agree with Gerald, Vectric's software is excellent and the price is much better than most. There are a number of things you can do as you set up the cut file and these work with the bit that you have selected. You don't know what bit is being used.

Gerald, I would be happy to participate in working on test cut programs with some others. I think it would be an excellent thing for every one.

[myozman]

Pete,

When you have the model open in Aspire, hit F12 to open toolpaths. Double click your finish toolpath(s), hit the edit button and change your stepover. You can click on the estimated machine time icon to get a rough machining time. You can see how much longer it takes with a smaller stepover. Once you get your machine setup, you can adjust the time to match your machine, or at least, get it closer.

[sailfl]

Mike,

He can not do that. He has cut files from what I understand that were provided by Vectric. He only has a trial version of Aspire.

[myozman]

Nils,

I forgot that he can't change or create usable toolpaths. The software is very worth the cost. I keep finding new things I can do with it.

[inventall]

I have no doubt the Vectric’s software it looks great and everyone has great things to say about it. The doubt is in my ability to get it to work on my MM.:o

I have checked the v groove bits that I have, I used 3 different Freud bits all 90 degrees and different sizes. All with the same results. Even ran a triangle cut test to check the exact degree of the bit.

I have changed the acceleration from 5 to 75 with very little difference in cut quality. I also measured my 1/4 inch spiral bit it is .246 and measured the width of the cut in several places along a straight grove and a round one, all measured between .248 to .251. I wish I had a Dial indicator here in CA. I will bring mine back from NY next week. But if I had to guess at it I would say I have about .005 at the most in any direction. I am testing that by pushing and pulling on the bit, not an easy thing to guess at. But it doesn’t seem like much.

Last night I did 16 different cuts of the "21 Maple Drive" trying everything I could think of, deeper cuts, higher cuts, slower, faster, and even with Backlash compensation enabled with different values. So far no luck. The Backlash setting so far only seems to make it worse. If I raise the bit so that the V-carve cut is about ½ as deep as it should be the corners are fairly sharp.

Let me ask a dumb question, would running the MM on a computer with only 128k memory cause this type of problem:confused:

I wish I could help on the test cut program but as of rite now I have no cad or cam to speak of.:o

[myozman]

Pete,

Do you have side to side play in your Z slide? Are your v rollers tight enough against the slide? Are all six making contact? I'm just trying to think why your having these problems. I'm thinking you have a mechanical problem rather than a software problem. Have you tried any other software? I just never ran into this problem, even trying other software.

[myozman]

Minimum System Requirements

The Aspire, VCarve Pro, Cut3D, PhotoVCarve and Cut2D software products will all run on virtually all home PC's and do not require any special hardware or graphics card.

The minimum PC specification for Cut3D, PhotoVCarve and Cut2D is:

* 1 GHz Pentium 4
* Windows 98, Me, 2000, XP, Vista
* 256 Mb RAM
* 60 Mb Free disk space
* 1024 x 768 Graphics display

For running Aspire and VCarve Pro 5 we recommend a slightly higher minimum PC specification:

* 2 GHz Pentium 4
* Windows Vista with 2Gb RAM
* Windows XP & 2000 with 1Gb RAM
* 60 Mb Disk space
* 1024 x 768 Graphics display
* DVD Drive

Aspire and VCarve Pro 5 will run on most home PC's but not on Windows 98.

Note - The Intel 82810 & 82815 integrated graphics cards must be set to run in 16 bit color mode.


I even run Aspire on a netbook in front of the tv.

[inventall]

Thanks Mike, Yea I have the trial version on my notebook as well. I am only running Mach3 on my machine computer. An I was wondering if that could be causing any deviation in the cuts?

Kind of thin I know.

[sailfl]

Pete,

Add more memory to your MM machine.

Your machine and Vectric software will work nicely together. There are a number of MM builders that are using their products. You don't have to worry if it will work.

You may have a problem with your machine if you have not tuned the motors and done the other procedures you need to follow to get your machine ready to cut. Have you tuned your motors?

To you these things may not sound important but with out doing the things Mike suggested and I am suggesting and that have been suggested on this site, you will never know if it is your machine or the software. We know the Vectric software is not the problem. You have to trust us on this. Take the time to set up your machine. Have you cut the road runner out yet?

Good luck

[kaartman]

The cut does not look bad, some artistic touch to it, I want to agree with Irfan in post #21, if you look at the letters the cut follow a constant contour but at the corners it goes funny, have look at the flexability of the z slide because of the plunging action of the cutter at the corners makes it look like the Z slide, router - collect gives way to the resistance of the material, shorten the distance between the material to be cut and the Y-gantry and try again,
The boys and girls on the Vectric forum are just as nice as our friends on the MM forum, together the problem will be solved.

[domino11]

Pete,
I am with Nils, XP needs min 512M to run nicely. It will limp along on 128M and run somewhat adequately on 256M. 1Gig will give better performance still. Also dont forget that with XP anything over 3G will get you in trouble due to limitations in the OS and some motherboards. 2Gig is a safe max for XP on all motherboards.

[inventall]

Forgive me if I am a little confused:confused:, just flew back to NY and can’t sleep now, “jetlag”, but it’s great to be home.:)

Ok Let me ask this “Tuning the motors” Do you guys mean Mach 3 tuning or setting the trim on the G540?? Because my understanding is if the motors run smooth, they are in tune??? As I have said I have tried changing acceleration and velocity with minimal difference in cut quality. I have not found a GOOD way to adjust trim and have no understanding of what “trim” is. I should probably go on CNCzone but that place scares me. I have read what G says about tuning the motors but I don’t get what I am “feeling” for. And then is it the same on the G540 as the 201’s, 202’s, 203’s??

Now I know 128k is way under the requirements of Mach (I started with256 on that computer but one of the memory slots died). I had planned to buy more memory for it, then found out that 1gig for that computer is $300:eek:. So I bought a much better IBM with 1gig for $124 from Tiger Direct:). So far I have not got that one to work rite with the machine:(. The Kernal?? Speed is too low. I think I have the fix for that now from the Mach forum: run “msconfig” and shutdown all the start-ups.

Nils is there something that someone has suggested that I have not done?? I am pretty confident that the Z has little play, run-out or backlash as I am a heavy equipment and automotive mechanic I am very use to checking mechanical tolerances. When I return to CA next week, with a dial indicator I will post the specs.

My question was dumb, but I was just wondering what the effects on the cut (if any), from too little memory would be.

[sailfl]

Tuning the motors. Yes, we mean turning the pot on the Geckos. If you feel the motors are running smooth then it is not necessary to do. You check it by feeling the motor for roughness. Like on a car, you want the motor to run smooth.

If you don't have enough memory, Mach may have a problem running or the computer will spend processing time to swap things in and out of memory because it doesn't have enough to perfrom the tasks it needs to perform. That is not good.

If you are only using the computer for Mach there should not be a lot of start-ups that need shuting down.

If you feel that there is no play in the Z then I am not sure why you are having a problem. The cut looks like it has some chatter.

What does it look like when you cut circles? If you cut a 4" circle is it actually 4"? Are there lines along the edge like you have in your photos? If it is not 4" or what ever size you cut and there are lines, you might have loose pinon gears.

For us software guys, if you don't have enough memory in the computer, the software program may not perform the same way every time. Mach knows how much memory they need to run their software. If you don't want to provide that much then you may not run right.

It is not a great example but lets say you manufacture cars, you tell the users that the car requires 6 quarts of oil. Car owner only use 3 quarts of oil. The additional 3 quarts cost too much. How do you think the car is going to run? It might run fine but evently some thing is not going to work the way you the manufacture knows it will work if it has a 6 quarts. Mach must have a reason for the amount of memory they want. Unlike the oil example, more oil is not better but more memory is good to an extent.

To answer your question, we don't know if having too little memory will effect the cut but we do understand it will have some effect.

Pete, we are just providing some ideas that might work.

[inventall]

Don't get me wrong I really appreciate your input in to my problems. Most of you have been doing this stuff longer than I've been alive:rolleyes:

I just realized that I did not post the following pic's here I put them on the Vectric forum. The square is 4x4 and the circle is 6inches. The sides of the blue carve took a couple of swipes with sand paper to look like that. If you look close at the "bulls" carve corners you will see the same problem.

[astrolavista]

I'm using Aspire to do most of my work, I had some issues with my Vcarves before I tuned my machine.. I think the key was just slowing down, I tried running some tests at 150 in/min and did not produce very nice crisp vcarves. I'm now running 1/2 that speed and they are looking good.. also been working on some 3d stuff and the same applies. I've been able to knock the job time down by being more "creative" with my cut strategies mixing 3d with pocketing..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlcbTNdODUI

[inventall]

Thanks Rene, But I tried that. I think I went down to 20 ipm at one point. I wish I made a video of it cutting. At the slower speed you can watch the bit rise up to make the angle than the Z stops and moves farther in to the corner as if it is rounding it on purpose.
I hope I can come up with something before I return to CA.

Maybe if I just disassemble the hole thing and put it back together it will work better. IDK it works on cars.