Movement, Logo and CUTTING between the beer cans #39 - Wroclaw, Poland

[martin77pl]

HI folks, do you happen to know anyone who has built Mechmate in Poland? I started reading forum about Mechmate and I have to admit it is a bit overwhelming for me. I hope I will gain more knowledge in time so that I can start building my own machine. You are all great. Keep it up and coming guys.

[martin77pl]

Can anyone tell me if g203v and motionking stepper motor 34hs9801 is possible? Are they both compatible and can I use this driver for that motor?

[Richards]

I've never used a Motion King motor, but the data sheet looks good for the 34HS9801. It is an eight-lead motor, so it can be wired Parallel, Series, or Half-Coil.

The data sheet shows that for Unipolar (half-coil), you would use a power supply of 50 to 65V (maximum). When wired half-coil, the motor would pull up to 4A, so you would use a 62K resistor between terminals 11 and 12 of the stepper driver. The motor is rated at about 780 oz*in.

If you wired the motor parallel, it would pull up to 8A, which is too much for the Gecko G203v stepper driver (7A max.) Wiring parallel would also produce a lot of heat.

If you wired the motor series, it would pull up to 2.8A. The inductance would be 16mH, so the motor would work better at slow speeds if you wired it series. You would use a 31K resistor between terminals 11 and 12. Because of the high inductance, you would not be able to use the proper power supply of 100 to 125V. The G203v is limited to 80V. That also means that you would not get the 1,100 oz*in that you would expect from a series wired motor.

So, if I were considering that motor, I would only consider using it wired half-coil.

Of course, all of those figures assume that the data sheet is accurate.

[Gerald D]

Hi Martin. Kobus is using that combination of motor and drive on his machine: BBB is cutting #6 - Brakpan, Gauteng, S.Africa (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=686)

[Kobus_Joubert]

Correction. I have 202's

[martin77pl]

Hi guys, I have spent some time reading the forum and decided i will go for oriental motors. I will place my order tomorrow, it appears that there is one distributor of these motors in Poland. As far as the price is concerned I can get PK296AE-SG7.2 for 212 euros plus VAT per piece. I bought PMDX-122 and four G203V yesterday. I cant wait till they arrive, it is gonna take some time before I receive them. The shipment from the USA. I have started looking around for a supplier of them parts to be laser cut and bend. I am not sure if it would be enough to print the plans and then scan them, email them to the company so that they can produce them. Or do all these parts have to be in DXF format?

[Gerald D]

Try Kim in Denmark for the laser cuttings. He works at his father's laser cutting company:
Laser cut kits for Europe - out of Denmark (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1121)

If Kim isn't there anymore, then you should send out only .dxf format drawings. Do NOT print and scan - the accuracy will then be terrible. I have included the .dxf drawings for the laser cuttings in the "downloads" area.

[martin77pl]

I received my first shipment today. I got it quite fast. I placed my order yesterday and I got it delivered today. 5, 2 meter long M1 rack and Gerald advised me to get two sets of spurgears so I ordered 25 and 35 teeth numbers for my geared motors. Cant wait till I get rest of the stuff.

[martin77pl]

That is the lot.

[martin77pl]

Hello everybody, I received email from fedex stating that my standard G203V arrived. They are waiting for customs clearance. They asked me to send them description of what they are and what they are gonna be used for. This is probably to calculate how much customs I am going to pay.
At present I am trying to figure out power supply for the geckos and my PK296AE-SG7.2. Can anyone help me with that issue?
I intend to wire them unipolar which is half coil. Using only four wires gives:
Current per phase, A/phase: 3 ( it is two phase motor, does it mean I have to multiply A/phase by 2 )
Voltage VDC: 1.4
Inductance mH/phase: 1.5 ( same, it is two phase motor, does that mean multiplying mH/phase by 2 )
So, is it gonna be 3 Amps by 4 motors which gives 12 Amps.
Therefore, typically 48 V time 12A gives 576VA so Do I need 570VA transformer? What about them resistors and rectifiers? Do I need any of them?

[Richards]

You take the Unipolar ratings to figure the Voltage and Current requirements for a power supply: MAX Voltage = 32 X SQRT(Inductance), so 32 X SQRT(1.5) = 39VDC. The closest standard size transformer is 35VDC (which is how I have my power supply wired for the PK296B2A-SG3.6 motors that I have).

Current = Amps X number of motors, so 3 X 4 = 12A.

To find the VA rating, you multiply the AC Volts X Amps, but you first have to find out much AC is required to produce 35VDC. The formula for that is: (SQRT(2) X VDC) / 2, so SQRT(2) X 35 / 2 = about 25VAC.

The VA rating is Amps X Volts, so 12Amps X 25VAC = 300VA. A 300VA to 500VA toroidal transformer would work just fine.

You'll need lots of capacitance. The formula is: Amps X 80,000 / Voltage, so, 12Amps X 80,000 / 35 VDC = about 25,000uF. Select a capacitor (or several capacitors) that are rated at 125% or more of the voltage. A 50V rating on the capacitor would be the minimum that I would use with a 35VDC power supply. A 63V rating would be even better.

All of the above shows that you should use a 35VDC power supply that is rated to deliver 12A. If you build your own, then use the following:

1 - Toroidal transformer, 25VAC at 300 to 500VA
1 - Bridge rectifier, 25A, 200V
1 - 25,000uF 50V capacitor OR 2 - 12,000uF 50V capacitors OR 3 - 8,000uF 50V capacitors
4 - 36K 1/4W current limiting resistors (I use 33K 1/4w because they are easily found everywhere)

[martin77pl]

Thank you Mike for your reply, much apreciated. This will enable me to start working on my power supply for the MM. All the best mate.

[martin77pl]

This is what I received today. Delivery was quite fast. They look awesome.

[kanankeban]

This is what I received today. Delivery was quite fast. They look awesome.

Where is the little gecko puff toy they sended with their orthers, not anymore?

[sailfl]

Hector,

I asked the same question about the stuffed Gecko. They don't include one in every shipment. It is up to the whim of the shipping staff or if they enough to send. I ordered 5 and I didn't get one.

[martin77pl]

Yet another piece of equipment that brings me closer to building MechMate.
I got it delivered today. As for my previous delivery, I got my G203V sent to me with a sticker that shows a company logo with geckon.

[Gerald D]

The stuffed gecko toy in this picture:
http://www.pmdx.com/PMDX-132/PMDX132.JPG
. . . .is not sent out with export orders because of Customs issues.

[martin77pl]

This is what I found when I got back from work. It does go well with the blue. This is what my wife prepared for me. Nice work.

[Gerald D]

Martin, have you moved to Croydon now?

Nice file - looks like mine! :)
The Americans will be surprised at having only two rings,
those from the Middle East (eg. Israel) will be surprised that the file opens on the right (upside down to them)

The discussion on motor voltages has been moved here:
http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1428 (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1428)

[martin77pl]

Hi Gerald, I put croydon by mistake. I am from Poland. I am to pick up my laser cut and bent parts for the mechmate on monday. The bloke who is doing it rang me up today saying that after the bending is complete the measurements are slightly different to those on the drawings. There is about 3 milimiters shorter distance between them bent parts. Do you think that could be a problem or is that not much a difference? I have already ordered dualvee rails. They are to be delivered next week together with motors. They should arrive by next friday. The table is to be cut and welded at a local shop. I have no room for that yet. Hope to arrange something soon.

[kanankeban]

Hi Martin,
Where did you got your rack and gears from, they look pretty nice...?

[Gerald D]

I think all the bends can accommodate a 2mm error. If the spider is 3mm too wide, that can be a problem. Best is to check the parts one by one and then we can see if they have specific problems.

[martin77pl]

Hi Hector, the rack and gears come from this website: www.akcesoria.cnc.info.pl. You can get other components needed to complete the build as well.

[Gerald D]

Martin, I see that website has a busy forum at http://www.cnc.info.pl/ But, when I search their forum, there is no mention of MechMate? Maybe you can fix that? ;)

[martin77pl]

Hello Gerald, I think the problem might be the language. You will probably agree with me but it is not enough to see pictures. It is essential as well to be able to communicate in the foreign language. As far as I am concerned I have always prefered to use foreign english speaking websites. I personally deem your forum more interesting and informative as well. I aquired the knowledge of english with my effort and the time spent in teachers training college where the faculty was english. Anyhow thats what I think.

[martin77pl]

Hello Mike, I have a question concerning capacitance. I found a capacitor rated at 22000uF and 63V. Do you think this one would be good for my power supply?

[martin77pl]

http://www.dewalt.co.uk/attachments/productdetails/catno/DW627/ Has any one seen this one? Looks quite robust and quite easy to mount as well.

[Gerald D]

The shaft of that motor has a 12 x 1 mm thread (male) - what tool holder will you use to attach the cutters?

[Richards]

A 22,000uF 63V capacitor should work just fine with power supplies producing up to 50VDC. I commonly use a 11,000 to 15,000 uF capacitor with four PK296B2A-SG3.6 stepper motors. The formula says that I should use 27,000 uF, but I'm not pushing those motors hard enough to draw 3A per motors, so the lighter-duty capacitors work just fine.

Remember that the purpose of the capacitor is to act as a reservoir for electricity. Your power supply will fill that reservoir 100 or 120 times a second (2x the 50Hz or 60Hz that your local power company's AC cycle rate). The stepper motors will draw against the reservoir. If the reservoir is too small, you will see excessive AC ripple on a DC power supply. Having about 5% ripple is okay. If you have more ripple than that, add another capacitor in parallel.

[martin77pl]

I am back with some photo updates. The box ready to be wired up. Is it really essential to use shielded wire for connecting all the components in the control box? I will do the wiring up during the weekend. I hope everything is gonna be ok. Maybe I will manage to power up the motors as well. We shall see.....

[jhiggins7]

Martin,

Great looking box.

I notice that you have the fan vented to the outside. The Forum recommends that the box not be vented. The fan just moves the air around in the box and the metal sides of the box conduct the heat out of the box.

However, several builders have vented the box, but they use a filter so that the dust and dirt associated with the MechMate, in operation, does not get into the box.

Regards,
John

[martin77pl]

Hello John,
I will go for vented box probably. I am gonna use a filter. The filter to be used to cover those little holes I drilled. So cooler air will be sucked in and I am thinking of another filter in the bottom fo the box. The bottom filter to let the air out so there is gonna be air circulation. Or maybe as you pointed out I could tape them holes, cover them and let the in-box circulation to do the work.

Thank you for your reply
All the best Martin

[martin77pl]

Hello guys, I got to a point where I am faced with wiring my motors. I chose Oriental Motors. I received four PK296AE-SG7.2 they have eight wires. As far as I understand I am supposed to use only four of them to get half coil connection. Which four of them do I use? What happens to the other four? Am I supposed to isolate them?

[Gerald D]

Use black, yellow, red, white and insulate all the others.

[martin77pl]

I have a question concerning printer cable. Is it possible to use one of them showing in the photo? I am asking because I used this cable to connect pmdx to my laptop. I failed to have the motors turning. Everything seemed to be ok. The green light on the geckos but still no response with the motors.

[Gerald D]

That is a USB to Parallel converter buit into a cable and it plugs into a USB port of your computer? This type of product will not work with Mach3. Mach3 will not work from a USB port (unless you use a SmoothStepper)

[domino11]

Martin,
That is a USB to parallel converter. Although they work fine for printers they will not work properly for the BOB and Mach 3. This has been tried by many and nobody has succeeded to my knowledge. Mach needs a real hardware printer port to function properly. Be also very careful when ordering a plug in parallel card for your computer, some are acutally the same as the cable you mentioned on a card. There is a thread here on that subject somewhere. :)

http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1415

Try this one.

Sorry Gerald, you replied while I was searching for the other thread. :)

[martin77pl]

Thanks guys. I went to the cellar and brought my mother-in-law's old pc. I just tried that and still nothing. Maybe I got it wrong configuring mach3. It is not that easy anyway for the firs time. I do have mach3 trial version maybe this wont work properly. Is there a thread where mach3 configuration is discussed?

[martin77pl]

Ok I found it in cnc motion control software.

[Gerald D]

The trial Mach3 is 100% the same installation as the paid Mach3.

With trial Mach3 you are limited to 1000 lines of G-code. Paid Mach3 can handle any length of G-code. This is the only difference between trial and paid Mach3.

[Richards]

Verify that you have correctly set jumper JP-1 on the PMDX-122 board for the Gecko G203v stepper drivers. The G203v drivers use Common GROUND, so you must use the settings found in Figure 2 on page 7 of the manual. (The manual can be confusing because many users assume that the settings for all Gecko stepper drivers use Figure 1 that is found on page 6; however, that jumper setting is for the G201, G202, G210 and G212 stepper drivers. Those stepper drivers all used a Common HIGH signal. Marris changed things when he designed the G203v. There have been several times when I've gotten caught when I've switched the PMDX-122 card between test benches. One of my test benches is setup with G202 stepper drivers. The other test benches all use G203v stepper drivers. When I forgot to change the jumper setting, the stepper drivers didn't work. One time I even had the oscilloscope hooked up so that I could look at the signals - then I remembered to switch the jumper.)

[Gerald D]

Motors won't turn after the setting up - PMDX-122 jumpers incorrect (http://mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1085)

Cannot get motor to turn - Mach Ports & Pins setup (http://mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=737)

Motors do not move after initial setting up - Mach setups (http://mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1078)

http://mechmate.com/forums/images/misc/paperclip.gif (http://mechmate.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=83#) Upgraded Mach, now the motors won't turn - Different ports/pins for later Mach (http://mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1080)

[martin77pl]

There is some change in the motor reaction and lights on the geckos. But still nothing close enough to wha it should be. When pressing arrows on the keyboard the motors are buzzing or wibrating. They do not turn just vibrating. I did change the jumper to be grounded for the gecko on the pmdx. There is red light on the gecko together with the green one. Maybe the power is not sufficient enough to power up the motors? When I press tab on the keyboard and there is 100 % slow jog motors buzz. I changed that to 60 % motor started to turn slowly but still vibrating. Any ideas what might be wrong?

[Richards]

How have you connected a power supply to the PMDX-122 card? Page 4 of the PMDX-122 instuction manual lists the three different ways that a power supply can be connected to the board. (In your photo, I don't see anything connected to any of the three power supply inputs - to the USB connector, to the J11 coaxial jack, or to terminals on J8.)

[martin77pl]

I have it connected via usb from a computer. The picture does not show that but chose this way of powering the pmdx.

[Richards]

Let's do some basic trouble-shooting. Check the voltage on the PMDX-122 J5 connector. Verify that you have 5VDC between the +5 and the GND terminals. Then, with your meter connected to the +5VDC terminal on J5, verify that you have 5V when you touch a probe to J1-Common, J2-Common, J3-Common and J4-Common.

The actual voltage may be slightly different, but +4.75V to +5.15V is acceptable for most TTL type circuits.

If the voltage test passes, then you'll need to use an oscilloscope to check the actual pulses being sent to the G203v stepper drivers. All that the PMDX-122 board does, as far as step and direction, is to buffer (amplify) the signals. Whatever signal is sent through the parallel port to the PMDX-122 is buffered and then passed on to the G203v. If you connect the 'scope's ground lead to GND on the PMDX board, and then touch the probe to J1-Step you should see pulses being sent to the G203v. The voltage of the pulses must be at least 2.5V (they will probably be about 5V). The width of the pulse must be at least 2uSec (which you can set in the Motor Tuning section of Mach 3).

At this point, as long as you have a Green light on the G203v stepper driver, pulses sent through the PMDX-122 to the G203v should make the motors turn.

A very crude test can be made my connecting two fresh AA batteries in series (so that you have about 3V). Connect the (-) end of the batteries to the Common on the G203v and then tap the lead from the (+) end of the battery to the Step terminal on the G203v. The pulses will cause the motor to turn. It will take 2,000 taps to make the motor's shaft turn one time, but you will at least be able to verify that the G203v is working.

[martin77pl]

I checked the voltage. It shows 4.9 VDC on the pmdx +5 and ground on J5. I also tried J5 +5 and common on J1 J2 J3 J4 and again it showed 4.9 VDC. I used tuninig settings in mach3 and managed to have the motors turning nice and smoth for 30 seconds or so. Then they stop and the red light appears on the gecko next to green one. The green and the red are lit together. I think it might due to the wire I used for the kitchen project. The trouble shooting page in the gecko user manual there is something abouth not using short circuit. I cut wire which is a meter long and used it to connect the geco and the motor.

[bradm]

Hmm. Two thoughts:

Check this: http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3407&postcount=2

And, from the Gecko manual:

ERROR LED: The RED ERROR indicator is lit when:
1) During power-on reset for 1 second when power is first applied to the G203V.
2) While the DISABLE input is active.
3) When there is a short-circuit on any motor output. Momentarily activate the DISABLE input to reset.
4) During over-temperature shutdown. The LED automatically resets when the drive temperature drops.

Obviously it's not case #1. Since you motors did run for 30 seconds, it probably isn't #3.

So I think you should:

A) take a measurement on your disable input pin
B) Double check that issue with GND it the referenced post above.
C) Double check your current set resistor values by measuring them.
D) Double check for a thermal problem. Are your geckos warming up? Are they heatsinked well?

[Richards]

Let's look at the wires from the motors again.

- Have you taped each unused wire so that it cannot short itself to any other wire?

- Are the current limiting resistors about 40K?

- What is the temperature of the G203s (Room temperature, warm or hot)?

- Is anything at all connected to the Disable terminals on the G203s?

Assuming that you've used an extension cable between the G203 and the stepper motor, are the wires electrically insulated from each other?

My G203v drivers are all heatsinked on a large piece of aluminum, but I don't think that even unheatsinked drivers would overhead in 30 seconds from motors that only pull 3A maximum. When I run my PK296B2A-SG3.6 motors, the G203 drivers hardly ever get much above room temperature.

I'm thinking that you have mistakenly miswired the drivers to the motors somehow. If possible, connect a motor directly to the G203.

-Wire the motor's BLACK wire to coil A (Terminal #3).
-Wire the motor's YELLOW wire to coil /A (Terminal #4).
-Wire the motor's RED wire to coil B (Terminal #5).
-Wire the motor's WHITE wire to coil /B (Terminal #6).

[Lex]

Hi Martin,
I had the same problem with my test panel. I checked every wire to the motors for continuity. I found 4 bad crimpings. Fixed them and everything worked! Problem was that only one coil was working making the motors to oscilate. Good luck.

[martin77pl]

Hi everybody, I used your advice and connected motors directly to the gecko. I did it and it turned out to be excelent idea. Well I tried with only one connected and it run smoothly and continously without any interruption. It seems there was a a problem with the wire I used for connecting the motors to the gecko. Anyways, I hope all of them will work fine just like the one I tested. I thank you guys for your advice. It was awesome experience to see the motor turn and change direction without a problem.

[martin77pl]

I have almost everything ready with them control box. My other parts for the mechmate are also waiting. Racks and pinions, bearings from Rick and Superior Bearings. At first I wanted to have the table made form me but now I will venture to build it. Just need to find space for it. It would be quite difficult to find some in the block of flats I live in. Let alone it is on the second floor:). I have a question about the E-stop though. I run my power supply on 230V and I read that it is not advised to place any switches on the DC side of the control box. So bearing in mind that high voltage do I wire the E-stop to PMDX using the voltage through that BOB?

[Gerald D]

Martin, can you give us photos inside your control box before we answer the E-stop question? I would like to see the back of the E-stop switch on the door, and the components where you connect the transformer.

[martin77pl]

This is how I got it wired in the control box.

[Gerald D]

Normally the E-stop will have 2 independent switches behind it (your photos show no switches on the E-stop button now). Both those switches will be Normally Closed (NC), for us they will be red, similar to the red and green switches behind your stop/start buttons.

One switch will handle the PMDX - see diagram in this post (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3407&postcount=2). See connector J6 at top left.

The other switch will break the mains supply to the transformer, by switching off the contactor. At the control box, this does exactly the same as your red stop button.

[Richards]

Gerald gave an excellent description of connecting an E-stop switch.

It's good to remember that the E-stop on the PMDX-122 board ONLY handles 5V. It SINKS current, meaning that whatever is attached to the E-Stop input must normally be connected to ground. When the E-stop switch is activated, it opens the circuit so that the E-stop input floats HIGH and the PMDX-122 stops all outputs.

So, if you use a two-switch E-stop, as Gerald described, it will be easy to let one switch handle the low voltage/low current required by the PMDX-122 while the other switch handles the high voltage/higher current required by the self-latching circuit that keeps the Contactor energized.

[martin77pl]

HI everybody, it is good to be back. I am happy to show you some more pictures with the progress. The next stage is finished and the table is standing. Before we started with the welding of the actual table frame we decided to practise on the shop table. It is good to have one anyways. Now probably more daunting objective is approaching. There are four rails to be done with the device attached to the grinder. Again I shall practise before I start the jobi.

[sailfl]

Martin,

Your build is looking good. You need to add some color on your machine to brighten the place up.

[martin77pl]

Hmmm, in this particular shabby environment I think shinny yellow instead of blue would do the trick:D

[bradyaero]

Very nice Martin,

Although you might need more Zubr to hold down the I-Beams!

[martin77pl]

Good day to everyone, and I am happy to be back again. I will post some photos later on to give you an update on the progress me and my friend have made since last time.
At the moment we are choosing appropriate gas spring. I found one that it rated at 500N. It doesn not feel right when I press it. As a rule of thumb 500N is around 50kg this is the force I have to use to make it work. Taking into account the weight of them parts involved directly is this gas spring to stiff? The stroke is right for the 350 tube but I am worried about the motor if it is gonna handle the force.

[Gerald D]

Unfortunately the 500N is far too much!

[martin77pl]

I received screened cables and will do the drilling on pinions cause the hole diamiter does not match the size of motors shaft. Will post some more photos soon. I have two weeks holiday and I hope the machine will be moving in two weeks time. I cant find right sized gas spring. Decided to order chinese water cooled spindle as well. It will take some time before we receive it but we will be busy anyway.

[bradyaero]

Looking very good Martin! You'll be up and running very soon. Happy Zubr to you ;)

[martin77pl]

Thank you Greg, I am still waiting for thins to arrive. The spindle has arrived in
Poland. This is quite fast actualy, I only paid for it last week. I also ordered some other stuff from local sources but they gonna take longer to arrive than that spindle from China. I found 150N gas spring and it is used in agriculture equipment like tractors, it is far more weaker than the one I had previously with 500N. At the moment we are working out how to cool down the spindle. We decided to use 110V pump that we found in a machine used for developing pictures from a film. Old school equipment. Will post some more pictures soon. I ordered some more push buttons as well. So the wiring shall start as soon as we receive them. As far as the proxies are concerned can all four be connected in series to a pmdx board? Or do they all have to be wired independetly? This is the one I would like to use IME12-04NPSZW2K it is M12 4mm range NO PNP

[martin77pl]

This is the pump and radiator is from ford sierra. Got it from scrapyard. All together with the fan connected shall be sufficient enough to cool down the spindle. What do you guys think about that solution?

[Jan de Ruyter]

Hi Martin,
You need some more stuff. The radiator you have will act as a condenser and must be linked to the high pressure side of the compressor. The outlet of the radiator must be connected to a flow restriction device, normally a capillary (small diameter) tube. This can then go into a water container with a 1/4 inch copper coil to remove the heat from the water, which then circulates to spindle. Solder everything up with coppertec.

I would not circulate the refrigerant to the spindle.

Pressure test your system with nitrogen to detect any leaks, evacuate down to 500 um to remove any moisture and charge with R134A, any other refrigerant will damage the compressor.

Better to have a cousin in the refrigeration business.

Jan

[martin77pl]

Thank you Jan for your input. I was thinking that the radiator would absorb the heat from the water while flowing through it. The fan that is shown in the picture is to ventilate the radiator so that the heat is reduced. Hmmm, how hot can the spindle get anyways? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OZCviK0msg I saw this video and liked the idea. I am getting same spindle.

[javeria]

well chk this cooling I have done to a similar spindle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a04a_FtbR44

no problems even when working for the whole day - only see that your pump is rated for continuous operation, (it should be brushless)

the radiator is essentially un-necessary. and I would not like to have extended wiring on the y car for the pump etc, better to have it located in a static position. The tubes are really cheap -

RGDS
IRfan

[Gerald D]

Jan, you are are thinking of a gas refrigerant system, which completely misses the basics of a standard water-cooled spindle.

[Jan de Ruyter]

Ja, got it! Somewhere between 2 and 5 this morning.

[martin77pl]

Thank you Ifran for your link, It is great. I plan to do something similar. Although I would like to have my cooling system located on the gantry.

[martin77pl]

Can anyone please tell me why it does not work when I try to use this extention? When I use regular cable it is ok. But when I the one in the photo it is different. I wanted to make some drilling to locate the xtention on the side of the control box and then plug the cable to it from computer.

[servant74]

Response is posted here (http://mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1979)

[Gerald D]

Jack, I copied his post to the other thread, where I thought there would be more readers - but I forgot to add my normal note.

[martin77pl]

I have received my spindle and VFD today. The spindle itself weighs 5.5 kg. I also received phoenix din rail block connectors and interface relays as well. So the wiring of the machine should start soon. I am still waiting for 3 more proxies and of course a gas spring. It all takes so much time for me to grasp the knowledge as far as the electronic is concerned. Now my main concern is to find right way to connect the VFD and the spindle:confused:Wil keep you posted;)

[andyclarkecncuk]

Hi Martin, There are threads on here and elsewhere which explain how to wire it up. I am hopefully going to wire mine up tomorrow (if cable arrives) so once ive done it if i can help i will.
Hopefully be cutting at the weekend:D
Andy

[martin77pl]

Thank you for your input Andy. I received email from the seller and he recomends programming the VFD before running the spindle.

I just tell you how to set up vfd as following
Firstly, adjust the PD013 to 8
Secondly, adjust the PD005 to 400
Thirdly, adjust the PD004 to 400
Finally, adjust the PD003 to 400
Note: you should set PD013, PD005 ,PD004,PD003 in order. It mean you should fistly set PD013, then PD005, then PD004, finally set PD003.
Note: after you set the all above, then please recheck the PD005, PD004, PD003 value is 400 or not to confimed that you already set it.
The reason we let you recheck is that if you do not set it at 400, then when you run the spindle motor, the spindle motor will be over-current, then the spindle will very hot and then within 5 minite, it will broken.
Regards Aoran
4. Note, please use the clean water to cool the spindle, and also do not let the dust to dirt the water. If the water not clean, it will lead the spindle to jam.

This is what I received from him. This may help you program yours.

[martin77pl]

Testing or actually tunning the machine we are now. At the moment all the wires are run through. I am trying to set Mach3 for optimal configuration. I get wierd sound whenever the speed reaches 360. The motors lock up and then move again when the speed drops. I am using geared motors unipolar connection using four wires out of 8. My power supply deliveres 33 VDC to the drives. I think it might not be enough for faster speeds. I got the steps set for 127.388 with 36 tooth pinion. I am gonna try and adjust the tripot next time and see what happens or replace the tansformer to raise the voltage.

[Gerald D]

Martin, have tried using a different computer? I don't think you have a voltage problem.

[smreish]

I have replicated that speed ceiling problem with an underpowered pc as well Gerald.
Have you tried running the speed test in Mach 3 to see if your PC is compliant?

[martin77pl]

Well, this is the second computer I have tried so far. The first one was older and weaker but seemed more stable as far as the test is concerned. The one I am using now is more powerful. There is 2G ram and the processor speed is 3GHz. Nonetheless, both computers seem to fail if what you say is true that my power suply should be ok. I am gonna try third computer tomorrow.

[Gerald D]

Can you give us your .xml setup file from Mach? I would like to check if you set the machine to run mm or inches, then to check the Motor Tuning for motor speed and acceleration.

[martin77pl]

Hey Gerald, I just returned from a trip to a shop. I couldnt wait till tomorrow. Tried different computer. The one I tried now was outstanding. It is what you say about the computer it cant be to slow or to fast. What a relief. The sound of the mtors moving so smooth. Before it was like shaving with blunt razor and now with that third mid range computer it is like heaven. Such a difference. Thanks a lot for advice. Will post a video on Youtube soon. I have settings in mach in mm and M1 module 36 teeth and 127.324 steps and 45000Hz kernel speed. Now I need to get a different PC.

[Gerald D]

....shaving with a blunt razor? I have forgotten about shaving over 30 years ago! :)

[Kobus_Joubert]

Gerald does not have TIME to shave...too busy helping and keeping this forum in top notch.;)

[Doug_Ford]

Gerald,

I continue to be amazed that you can diagnose all of these problems based on sketchy details from all the way around the globe. I chuckle every time. I just can't figure out how you know so much about everything.

[martin77pl]

I am pround to announce that we had first movement. There is a link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0bZV80Xmj4. I also tested proxies and they are working as well.

[javeria]

ha ha ha - is that you hiding behind the machine :D

congrats on the movement

[domino11]

Well Done Martin! Dust is just around the corner.

[martin77pl]

Hope so, the machine is to be dismantled and moved to a different location soon. That was me behind the machine. I was next to the box and the pc hoovering over E-stop just in case.

[Doug_Ford]

Congrats Martin. I'm envious of your water cooled spindle.

[martin77pl]

I havent tried it yet. At the moment I am redoing proximity switch holder for the MM.
I will try and connect spindle on friday hopefully.

[martin77pl]

I am back with some photos showing current progress. All mechanical parts are done. The spindle was turned on and checked for the first time. The cooling system is mounted on the car with the pump and the reservoir. The radiator as well rides on the car and if need be the fan can be added as well. I have received my first bits. I ordered two ballnose bits and one three flute and one two flute end mills. The remote push buttons on the MM are working fine. I plan to add one more button on the car zero routine. Unfortunately not enough space for input. THere is already Pause, Resume, Probe for tool height and Proxies. I got the board to be used for controlling spindle via mach as well. It is not that easy to connect it on that chinese VFD. Will post some more picturs soon and a video as well.
I noticed that when running a g-code with the machine turned on there is light jerk that can be seen. It happens while transition from one line of a g-code to the next one. Any ideas what might cause it to happen?

[Gerald D]

Have you cut anything yet? There is a serial number (#37) waiting . . . :)

[domino11]

Martin, Nice work. :)

[martin77pl]

No, not yet,. A bit afraid of that plunging and letting the machine take over the control. I think it is gonna take few more days before I can actually cut something. I need a bit more confidence with the machine to master it.

[bradyaero]

Hi Martin,

Very nice work, Make sure you Set Mach 3 to CV mode, then you'll have to work on your motor acceleration to get a nice smooth ride!

[martin77pl]

Will do, thanks a lot.

[Gerald D]

Martin, we started with a spring-loaded pen before we were brave enough to use a cutter.

[martin77pl]

First and hope the last bit down. I broke my first bit. It was 3mm ballnose that I broke. I set the machine for dry run just to try it with the bit in the spindle. While the g-code was running I decided not to turn the spindle on yet and that was mistake. The settings in Mach3 wasnt set right. I didnt mark Z axis in Homing/Limits configuration tab as reversed. As a result the bit plunged into material which wasnt supposed to happen if the setting was marked. Anyway I will post some photos tomorrow. There is so much to learn. I found also there is electromagnetic interference in the controll box. My proxies in the middle of the table react but actually they shouldnt. I checked with multimeter the relays and they showed reading as they were switched. It is kind a wierd that my MM runs smoother without CV setting. My other solid carbide bits do not perform very well either. I set vfd for 20000 rpm and was trying to cut solid soft wood at a slow feedrate and 3 mm a pass. There seem to be smoke visible. Maybe those settings programmed in vfd are not right. I have PD3 set for 400, PD4 set for 400, PD5 to 400 as well.

[martin77pl]

Bits burnt and bad marks on the wood as well

[Claudiu]

Congratulations for your first cuts!

My personal opinion regarding the marks is that your spindle or complete z-axis is not perfectly vertical, but as I said, it`s only an opinion. I guess here are a lot of people with more experience and will help you out with that.
Don`t give up, it`s already a great achievement!:)

Good luck.

Bye

[javeria]

Martin those look like HSS endmills, you should use carbide bits

[domino11]

Congratulations of the firsts cuts Martin!

See here Mach motor tuning (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=875)

I think the guys are running with CV turned off.

[martin77pl]

I ordered the first three solid carbide bits from this site http://www.frezycnc.eu/solid-carbide-tools/. There are three bits in the picture and the first one on the left is supposed to be solid carbide. Thanks Guys anyway. I will try reconfiguring my vfd tomorrow. Maybe setting for speed is set wrong way.

[Gerald D]

The cutting will get better, once you have the speeds set up correctly. (My first guess is that you are cutting far too slow - slow speeds cause burning)

But, you must now get a serial number! I was away for a time, and I don't know what the next number should be - can someone else help here please?

[esadaddy]

Is it possible you a running in reverse?

[martin77pl]

I dont think it it possible. I have PD setting responsible for running counterclockwise set to 0. This setting forbids the spindle to turn left. I bet Gerald might be right. I need to change settings for speed.

[Gerald D]

And you have serial #39!

[jhiggins7]

Martin,

Congratulations on your Mechmate and Serial #39.:)

The Updated Builder's Log is here (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AttqjIPMBEXKcExveGc4d3U0V25zQmMyX1U1eUVhU Xc&hl=en).

Please let me know the dimensions of your MechMate for the Builder's Log.

Also, please review your entry and let me know any changes you would like.

[martin77pl]

Thank you all for your input. Thank you Gerald for the serial number. I have the table size corresponding to 2800x2070 sheet of MDF. I ordered ferrite and EMI filter for the VFD and also a digital tachometer. I am prytty sure now that the spindle is spinning at the right rpm. As for the burning of the bits that was due to slow feed rate. So I think.

[jhiggins7]

Dimensions added here (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AttqjIPMBEXKcExveGc4d3U0V25zQmMyX1U1eUVhU Xc&hl=en).

[Claudiu]

Hello Martin

This is what I found, maybe it is of use for you.
It is a general guideline finding feed rates and maintaining tool life.

- Perfect Feed Rate
1. Start at the low end of the feed rates.
2. Increase the feed rate until:
a. The edge finish deteriorates.
b. Or the router bit risk breakage.
3. After one of the above happens, decrease
feed rate by 10% and reduce the RPM's
until the edge finish once again deteriorates.
THIS IS THE POINT OF MAXIMUM
PRODUCTIVITY AND BEST TOOL LIFE!

Make chips not dust!
1. Can you throw the chips or do they float in
the air?
2. To make chips not sawdust. You need to
increase the chipload by increasing the feed
rate or lowering the RPM's or using less flutes.
3. The larger the chip removed, the more heat
that is removed with it. This keeps the bit cool,
and increases tool life.

Hope you get your VFD working. I know I have a manual at work. I will try to post it here when I get to my office comp.

Bye
Claus

[martin77pl]

Thank you for the info Claus. It is the feed rate that is essential. I checked the spindle with a optical tachometer and it displayed near to 24000 round per minute. So far I have been cutting styrofoam will try the bits and the spindle on the wood with higher feed rate.

[Claudiu]

Hello Martin,

Did you find out what the problem is?
Just an idea, why don`t you try cutting with reduced spindle speed up to 8000 rpm.
This speed should be absolutely sufficient with a 2 flute upcut bit.

Are you controlling your VFD / Spindle with Mach3 or manually?

Greetings
Claus

[sailfl]

Martin,

Congratulations on the serial number and cutting.

I personally think that 8000 rpm is too slow. The idea is you want to cut fast as mentioned to remove the chips. I have my Mach set to CV and I also have Stop CV on angles > 40 degrees but you need to determine what angle you want. This will give you square corners when you want them.

From my experience the cuts look like you bits are not squre to the table. I use solid surface material to check my alignment or a piece of hard wood. You need to adjust the Z.

[martin77pl]

Hello guys, I am controlling the VFD manually at the moment but I plan to have it controlled by Mach. I am waiting now for dust extractor to arrive. That CV setting is causing jerky moves of my machine. If CV is off the moves get better.

[sailfl]

Martin,

Interesting about the CV. Thanks for trying.

[kostas5]

Hi Mrtin
I am hapy to see your good job withe MM very nice one ..and i like to ask you where i can buy laser cut parts and other parts..i hope thats you can healp me
thank you
kostas

[martin77pl]

Hi Kostas and welcome. Good luck with your build. Them parts that are laser cut and bent you can order from any company with laser cutting machines. I am sure you can finde some in Warsaw. I used a company called Blehinger as far as I can remember and they are based in Wroclaw. I emailed them dxf files from download page and they agreed to do that. Oriental motors I got from Poznan company name is Masterpol and the bearings are from SuperiorBearings. com. Hope that helps.

[kostas5]

hi martin
i am very hapy thats you can help me to found my parts ..and i hope thats we can be in contact .i like to ask you if they make you the laser parts withe bending or not and if not how you did your bending .
thanks..have a nice day

[martin77pl]

Kostass they do bending and laser cutting.

[kuka]

It's my first post on the forum,despite long undercover activity(reading only).First off my
regards to all active members,whose knowledge helped me to make decision on build of
my router.At the moment I have all parts laser cut and bent.Now,as I am temporarily,
back home I would like to get in touch with martin77 or Kostas5 for further consultations.

[martin77pl]

Hello mate and welcome on board.

[kuka]

Hi Martin77,
for years nobody addressed me as "mate",so reading your post I realized how
much I miss from Down Under.
My email:laser7@onet.eu

[martin77pl]

Good to be back. Although I visit the website every day I havent posted for a while now. I have installed my MechMate with dust extraction system and laser crosshair for zeroing X and Y. I use game pad for jogging the machine. I switch on ond off the spindle and laser using the pad. I will post some more photos of the set-up soon. I cut it yesterday the piece is 225 mm wide by 320 mm high.

[Travish]

Good looking work there Martin!

Are you willing to share the settings used and what was done to get the router to switch on ond off for the spindle and laser using the pad?

Thanks,
Travis

[martin77pl]

I am using chinese water cooled spindle. The VFD that drives the spindle is connected to the PMDX on board relay contacts. The ports and pins tab for spindle setup contains relay control and you should unchek the box 'disable spindle relays'. You should set both CW and CCW outputs with 1. I had to modify standard Mach3 screen a bit for the laser to be switchable using my pad. Screen 4 and KeyGrabber is all you need to achieve that. I am using a cheap game pad but that is working fine. As far as the laser is concerned I am using 'Flood/Mist Relays' to switch the laser on and off and I can use the screen or the pad to do that. Although the laser I am using needs 3 vdc I connected it directly to the PMDX and is working ok.

[martin77pl]

Here are some photos of what my laser and dust feet look like and a modified screen as well.