Beech wine bottle racks #32 - Bucharest, Romania

[gixi]

Hello everybody
As all new comers on this site first I just sit and read A LOT.
Starting from yesterday I began to cut metal and now its time time to present myself, so my name is Marius and I’m from Romania – Bucharest.
This machine it’s a fresh start for my business. At the beginning I was looking for the “professional” model but the prices... The local dealer for Mastercam ask for 99.000 EUR + VAT and software 7.000 EUR + VAT!!!
Let’s say the price it’s not a big issue, but EVERYBODY gives one year guaranty period. NOT GOOD!
For an industrial machine it’s not good.
But the most important it’s the spirit of this site. Sharing of all this information’s gives me a new sense to look at peoples around me .
Well done Gerald and everybody!

Marius

[Kobus_Joubert]

Welcome Avo. I am sure you will build the machine of your dreams. What does AVO stands for. I still have an AVO analog meter to measure volts, current and resistance

[gixi]

It’s my nickname gave by my friends. My hobby is to ride motorcycles and as you perhaps know every rider has a nickname. It comes from my other principal job: I’m a lawyer :). In Romanian lawyer=avocat.
Yes is my dream machine…

[Kobus_Joubert]

Thanks for the explanation. Show us a picture of your bike. Maybe you have a beard too ?

[gixi]

Thanks for the explanation. Show us a picture of your bike. Maybe you have a beard too ?

No I'm not the beard type :). I use to ride only super sport bikes. This picture was made on a trip to Italy.

[gixi]

YES ! Today I get from the water jet company my order.

[Gerald D]

Part M1 30 332 is either too thick or too many?

[gixi]

Yes, the guy from water jet company cut 4 pieces but I paid only one.
Now I'm waiting for the motors...
Here in Bucharest I found a small company who can provide the electronic parts similar with the Ghecko and PMDX but I don't have the motors to verify their components. Their site is http://www.hi-end.ro.
They said the drivers are similar with Gecko.

Marius

[kanankeban]

Hi...
Welcome and good luck with your build...It seems we have two things in common :cool:, , I just started to build a mechmate, and bikes.
Greeting from Mexico...Drive fast! and safe ;)
This is me with my bike....

[gixi]

Hi...
Welcome and good luck with your build...It seems we have two things in common :cool:, , I just started to build a mechmate, and bikes.
Greeting from Mexico...Drive fast! and safe ;)
This is me with my bike....

Definitely you put my soul on fire with your bike pics ! I’m a Suzuki fan, the ZX12 was kept only for this summer because I order the GSXR1000 K8. Suzuki for life !
I use to ride speed bikes since ’89 and of course I take good care on the road (with some exceptions, you know what I mean…:D). I’ll make some pics with my new bike when I’ll get her.

[Kobus_Joubert]

I LIKE Suzuki fans ...Welcome welcome,,keep the rubber on the road..:p

[gixi]

Today I made a test when I discovered a "SMALL" problem with the Main Longitudinal Beam.
IT IS NOT STRAIGHT!:mad:
So brute force was necessary... At the end on both ends I measured 255,4mm and in the middle 255mm.
And the cherry on the cake : I didn't leave 5mm extra for the rack :mad: :mad:

[Gerald D]

AVO, your choices are:

1. New beams, which may also be bent . . . . . not a good choice

2. Bend your beams in a hydraulic press (http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4IRFA_enZA279ZA280&q=hydraulic%20press&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi)

3. Bend the beams by welding inside them, at the correct position. For this you will have to explain carefully which direction the beams are bent, so we can shrink the metal in the right place.

[gixi]

3. Bend the beams by welding inside them, at the correct position. For this you will have to explain carefully which direction the beams are bent, so we can shrink the metal in the right place.

I'll go for option nr.3, but for the moment I have to stop everything because the BIG BOSS will cut my hands off. In 2 days I'm leaving to Holland on a small trip and nothing is prepared...
At the end using force the table is in one piece and it looks like this but the measurements are as I said. You are right, I will check first where is the bend because is not normal to put toghether the table like this even if at the end will come in the right dimension.

[gixi]

The ski holidays are over and now I’m back on the project.
Finally the motors arrived :).

[gixi]

I finally solved the problem by borrowing a 10 T press used in car services.
The main beam was bend in several places. Incredible…
Sometimes aluminum profile is better than construction steel. I guess…
It was a hard lesson because I didn’t check the steel and I just presume that everything is OK. :(
Marius

[Gerald D]

I like to see that Marius - good work with the hydraulic pressing!

[kanankeban]

The ski holidays are over and now I’m back on the project.
Finally the motors arrived :).

Nice!...how mauch did you pay for those babies?

[gixi]

1200 Euro !!! It was a real investment... But I want to keep as much as I can to the best configuration sugested by Gerald.

[Gerald D]

Hey, I only started suggesting them after a lot of volunteers tried them and said they were good. That was also the first time I started to use them. Together, as a group, we learnt a lot about motors over the last 2 years - my job is only to summarise the facts and throw away the misleading rumours. :)

[gixi]

Thats the ideea: to get the best from others experience :).
Gerald, looking at Z axis built by Vladimir I was wondering if these motors are good for that kind of Z axis... Just thinking.
Thank you.

[Gerald D]

If you mean to drive a screw axis with a 7.2 geared motor . . . .

That will work, but it will be a very slow z-axis.

[Barman]

How long did you had to wait for these PK 296AE - SG 7.2 motors ?
I just received a price of 270 euros per motor.
Waiting time is about 3 weeks.
These should be especially made. They are not in stock.
Is that normal?

[gixi]

I guess is normal because I wait much longer than you. OM has offices in Germany, Italy, UK and I have to buy from local office wich is under supervision of the German... And the price... This is the price because we live in Europe comparing with US where you pay the same but in dolars.
But after all I understand this is the best choice for quality.

Best of all,
Marius

[gixi]

It’s been a while since I don’t write but most of my time was wasted because of the material used to build the MM. The steel was bended, twisted in different ways… The rails (from a local supplier who’s doing business with an Italian company) arrived after 2 MONTHS and the bearings (ordered from another company) arrived after 3 WEEKS. I hope the BOB and Gheckos will come faster than that.
Next time I’ll change the suppliers…
Here are some pictures with my progress.
P.S. And of course I manage to damage the pointer finger with the grinder :o.
But the perspective to be close to finish the table make me to forget all these :).
Marius

[Gerald D]

Good to see some progress again Marius. Sorry about the damage to the digitus secundus - hope it will make a full recovery. :)

[isladelobos]

how is possible to weld inside the tube?

[J.R. Hatcher]

The nuts are welded to a strap then it's ends are welded to the tube.

[gixi]

The nuts are welded to a strap then it's ends are welded to the tube.
On the exterior of the tube I drill some holes till the strap was reached and inside the holes I weld together the strap and the tube in order to stay with no screws tight on each other.

[sasko]

are you going to use Gecko or hi-end drivers?

[gixi]

are you going to use Gecko or hi-end drivers?
What brand of hi-end drivers ? At the begining I was looking at OMRON drivers but soon I discovered that is way to complicated and I have no suport (like a forum). So I'm looking each day to the Gheckos. Chinese drivers could be an option but again no suport. So the ideea is to keep it simple and again the SUPORT is very important.

[Gerald D]

Marius, please don't use "quotes" if you are replying to a post directly before yours. See:
Using quotes when replying to a post - only use if essential please (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=816)

[Gerald D]

Marius, I am hearing good things about the drives (and support) from Motion Control Products (http://www.motioncontrolproducts.co.uk/index.php?cPath=26&osCsid=b94b3bbeafcb3341f8edb7f8f7eec6c6) in England. (Those drives are made by Leadshine (http://www.leadshine.com/2-4.html) in China)

[mphel]

I'll say hello to everyone and thanks to Gerald for his hard work and generosity.
I have saved my first post until I could give a little help instead of asking for it!!

I have built a small mdf based machine ( I know the curse of cnczone but I've learnt enough to bring me here) and I used Motion control products' drivers for this, I don't have experience with Geckos to compare but I have had no problems with them at all and they survived me wiring them up so they must be fairly resiliant.

Oh and I had my laser cut parts delivered today!!

Mark.

[gixi]

Mark, the link it doesn't work. It's from the same company Gerald recomended ?

Marius

[mphel]

Marius,
Yes I was just pointing out that it was the same company Gerald mentioned. My experience with these drivers is good so may be another option. Hope it helps someone.

Mark.

[gixi]

OK. I'll start reading about those drivers because very soon the next step is the "kitchen table"... And this is my reason for many sleeples nights. What kind of BOB did you use ?
Thank you,
Marius

[mphel]

I used a very basic generic BOB on the old project with no bells or whistles so I'll be looking for something much like the pmdx 122 for this one.

Mark.

[gixi]

Finally my MM is moving (without motors) :)! Tomorrow the rack is the next step and after that I’m ready for painting.

[gixi]

Hello everybody,
Today I place orders for the Z axis and one ball screw, linear ball bearing. I’m ready to place order for the transformer. A Romania company http://www.petra-toroid.ro/ after sending details regarding motors, drivers, BoB, they recommend this configuration:
P=800VA U1=230V U21=50V I21=16.0A U22= 9V I22= 0.5A.
Is it more than I need ?

Marius

[domino11]

Marius,
That is an 800 VA transformer. It is probably more than you need for total power. Also dont forget that the secondary at 50VAC will be about 50 X 1.414 = 70.7 VDC. Is that a little too high for your motors? If they are close to the pk296a2a we have here in North America you probably want 35 to 40VDC. Double check your motor specs. :)

[Gerald D]

The 50V looks too high. What drives will you be using?

[Gerald D]

Sorry Heath, didn't see your post #41 on top of page 2, before I responded to Marius's post #40 at the bottom of page 1. I make this mistake quite often. :o

[domino11]

Gerald,
No problem, I believe I have done the same for some of your posts too. Seems like we post around the same times. :)

[gixi]

Thanks for reply. I give to the producer all the specification for Gecko (I prefer american instead chinese), and PMDX 122 and PMDX 135 and the motors are OM 7.2 and these are his calculation...
So is to big :confused:.
And he give me a second choice:
P=800VA U1=230V U21=27V I21=29.5A U22= 9V I22= 0.5A
If I use -PMDX 135-5020 sau PMDX 135 - 8020.
The first choice is if I use only PMDX 135-8050.
So what should I ask for ?

Marius

[domino11]

Marius,
That transformer, while it has way more current capability than you need, the output voltage would be about 38VDC. That would be a good choice for half coil wiring of the motors you have selected, if they are the same specs as the pk296a2a motors we use here. Is it possible he could give you a 500VA transformer with 27V out and a 9V tap? This would be a better overall choice, and would probably cost a lot less as well.

[Gerald D]

Okay, if I was the transformer maker, and someone gives me the spec sheets like you did, then I would also offer exactly the same transformer as he did. He did quite a good job of searching data out of those specs!

However, you will want to wire those motors as half-coil for the best overall speed, torque, heat when used in our router table application. That means we will not use the full 80Vdc that the drives are capable of.

Also, all 4 motors don't need full power all the time, that means you need less than 800VA.

This is the spec of the transformers we had manufactured in South Africa, using similar motors as yours:
P=300VA U1=230V U21=29V I21=9.0A U22= 9V I22= 1.0A
They work fine - no overheating.
(I increased the current of the 9V section in case I want to drive proximity switches from that)

Heath's suggestion of 500VA will cost a little more, but maybe you will sleep easier - it is a safe choice.

[Gerald D]

. . If I use -PMDX 135-5020 sau PMDX 135 - 8020.
The first choice is if I use only PMDX 135-8050.
So what should I ask for ? . . .

I would take the PMDX 135-8020 because the extra $12 gets you better capacitors (higher voltage rated), irrespective of which transformer you get.

[gixi]

OK, somehow things will begin to clear up around me. I’ll go with PMDX-135-8020, PMDX-122 and of course the famous Geckos 203. Two days ago I contact Campbell to buy most of an enclosure but till now no answer regarding the transport cost. I don’t want to waste more time because at the end of the week painting is the next step and I didn’t have any part of the electronics. Maybe for the next MM I’ll use Campbell BoB.
Tank’s for the info.

Marius

[Gerald D]

Be careful of Mr Campbell's shipping. He likes using "USPS" which is the USA "Post Office". They will hand the parcel to the Government Post Office of Romania without insisting on proper tracking and insurance. I ordered one of his BoB boards together with 4x Geckos, all prepaid of course. Well, the parcel never arrived here, and the only thing he was willing to do was to send another BoB board. Goodbye 4x Geckos!

[gixi]

It is good to know that. A few minutes ago I just finish speaking on the phone with the guys from PMDX in order to confirm the order and in 30 minutes they said the invoice will be sent by mail.
Perhaps I'm tired but there is no phone number to speak with Mr. Campbell. Very interesting...
Doesn't matter because I'm on the way with PMDX. The Romanian company who produce transformer tomorrow will send the goods. I chose the 500VA and the price its 54, 5 $.
The control box start to appear from darkness :).

[OldRat]

Hi, everibody
Great, great site. And a wonderful comunity around it. I'm proud I was alowed to join. Keep on with this fine job!

From my part, first step done: download went ok. Next step is to study. It will take a long, long time, because it happens that I know some things about what this is about, but in some other way ... And maybe there will be some more steps, one of them including building such a baby. If this won't happen, I'm still satisfied, because I found You.

Finding AVO's posts, I take the opportunity to say him: "Salut, s-o vezi iute gata si sa te bucuri de ea!" :D and ask him: "Spune-mi, daca se poate, te rog, unde si cine ti-a facut debitarile si indoirile. Si mai ales cat ti-a luat. Ca la mine asta e problema. Intre a sti si a dori, pe de o parte si de a putea, pe de alta, e o diferenta la care nu e sigur ca pot face fata. Multumesc."
For the ones who do not understand romanian, all this means I want him to tell me where, who and especially for how much he's got the cut & bend job done.
Good health and Happy MechMate Buiding and Enjoying, to all of YOU ! :)

[gixi]

Here are the invoice from the company in Bucharest who cut with waterjet:
Petru Soiman
Buna ziua,

Debitare waterjet repere otel cu material de la client:
- desen 1030422 = 43Euro/buc fara TVA
- desen 1020452 = 26Euro/buc fara TVA
- desen M510314 = 13Euro/buc fara TVA
- desen M510324 = 9,8Euro/buc fara TVA
- desen M130332 = 9,2Euro/buc fara TVA
- desen 1040434 = 6Euro/buc faraTVA
- desen M510312 = 15Euro/buc fara TVA
- desen 1020451 = 28Euro/buc fara TVA
- desen M118027 = 2,5Euro/buc fara TVA
- desen 1040432 = 23Euro/buc fara TVA
- desen 1020458 = 7Euro/buc fara TVA
- desen 1020456 = 6,4Euro/buc fara TVA
- desen 1020457 = 12.6Euro/buc fara TVA
- desen 1030455 = 31Euro/buc fara TVA
- desen 1040372 = 3,1Euro/buc fara TVA
- desen 1060215 = 38Euro/buc fara TVA
- desen 1060315 = 18,8 Euro/buc fara TVA
- desen 1060325 = 12Euro/buc fara TVA
- desen 1040330 = 39Euro/buc fara TVA
- desen 1040387 = 3,1Euro/buc fara TVA

Pretul include doar debitarea waterjet, fara material.
Separat pentru operatia de indoire pretul este de 1Euro/indoire fara TVA; pret valabil daca se executa si debitarea.

Termen de livrare: 2 ~ 3 zile de la plata avansului
Modalitate de plata: 30% si 70% la livrare

Cu respect,
ing. Petru Soiman Tel. 0726.694.211
Engineer
Cautis JB '93
petru@mail.cautis.ro,
Phone No:
0040 21 461 04 94
0040 21 461 05 84
0040 21 460 30 01
Fax No: 0040 21 460 04 88
www.cautis.ro
Suna-ma si tu maine si iti dau mai multe detalii. Inginerul respectiv e super de treaba iar calitatea lucrarii fara discutii. Tel:0722353138 Marius
Happy to see that I'm not alone around here because only my wife understand the importance of this project.
Call me to give you many details :).

Marius

[OldRat]

Hallo, Marius
Thank You for your kind, prompt & detailed answer. It will help me a lot. Maybe not today, but one of this days I'll call You.
In the predictable future, I'll be not able to show any progress, but me and all of us will closely watch yours.
Happy MechMate building to everyone :)

[gixi]

Today I get the transformer. Great company! They produce and deliver a custom transformer in 2 days from the moment I placed the order and they are situated 600km from Bucharest. The PMDX and Geckos are on the way :). By the way: till now still now answer from Campbell. One more time I thank you Gerald because you warn me.

[domino11]

Marius,
That looks like a very nice transformer. From the label I think that will work very well for you. :)

[gixi]

Yesterday was a full day : Gecko arrived and MM is on his feet again after the painting. Now I'm looking for a control box and there are a lot of stuff to finish on MM like chain cable, leveling, etc. I'm waiting for PMDX...
But the most important step for me right now was to see the MM painted and put all important pieces toghether. Here are some pictures.

[Gerald D]

I do not believe that you are a lawyer by profession - we all know that lawyers only write long stories and are useless with tools! :D

[gixi]

Yes you are right with the other lawyers but not me. This business (woodworking) for me is more than making money it's a passion and this kind of machine will push me to the next level in furniture production. Just imagine how much I need such a machine when I work for it 3 days a week from 7PM till 2 AM and next day back to the office fresh and crispy. But it’s for real: building MM becomes an addiction :).

[gixi]

Last night I made some tests to put motors on positions and the pinions are not standing 100% on the racks. For example on Y axis the pinion is pushed too much outside the rack. On X axis is not that much. I can push the pinion only 2mm to the inside of the rack but it’s not entirely on the rack. Is it OK to stay like that? What kind of problems should appear in the future?
The PMDX arrived today :).

[Gerald D]

Marius, it is normal for us to slide the pinion away from the motor a bit, so that it is aligned with the rack. (The motor shaft will not go all the way to the end).

Remember you will still have plastic washers between the motor plate and the gantry end - that makes it a little worse.

[gixi]

The spring has come and temperature is rising. What can we do ?
WARM UP THE ENGINES !!! :D

[kanankeban]

Congratulations....very nice bike!!!

[Kobus_Joubert]

Correct nice bike AND it's a Suzuki..keep the rubber on the road.

[kanankeban]

Please keep just the rubber and knee sliders on contact with the road...all other things are bad :D

[gixi]

Today I received the oreder from China. Good quality and fast delivery.
Now I can start to build the Z axis. Here are some pictures.

[javeria]

hmm ball screw for Z - interesting - what were the costs involved?

[gixi]

Super price: all stuff was 88 $ :). Transport extra 34 $. The good part is if you don't find what you need on listed ebay items just ask and the seller put the new item on ebay. Top seller. There you can find spindles with VFD, all linear systems, etc.
Give a try.

[kanankeban]

Serious, did you paid that for the ball screw and linear bearings?

[javeria]

who's that seller - ?

[gixi]

Yes this is for real ! The seler is:
http://stores.ebay.com/linearmotionbearings
And this is my shoping:
Item number: 250387267049
At the begining I was afraid to place a big order but next time I'll go for more items. And the seller works only with PayPal and that give me more confidence.

[gixi]

It's time to post some new pictures... I loose a lot of time finding shielded cable, ordering chain cable, etc but finaly I start to build the control box :).

[Gerald D]

Ah, Marius is back! :)

I see you have the high power electrics (with capacitors) flat across the bottom of the box. Just a practical hint; the bottom of the box has a habit of collecting the fine bits of copper that you cut off when installing the stuff higher up in the box. You need to be extra careful with cleanliness, or be willing to smell smoke. :rolleyes:

[gixi]

Finally!!!
The beast is moving!!! But…
1. two wire connectors are not match each other (the lady from the shop didn’t know much about what she is selling :mad:) so I couldn’t check the motors in the same time.
2. on X axis one motor is going in a direction and the other in opposite side.
But with all these inconvenient I can say most of the kitchen project is done.
I try to start the scorpion job but I quit because of the engine setup. The only movement I get from the jog with one motors detached from the rail :o.
There are some picture of the control box.

[Gerald D]

Great news!!!

To reverse the direction of a motor, swop the yellow and red wire at the Gecko.

[gixi]

Thank you again for the answer.
One more question : when you say swop the yellow and red wire at the Gecko, it means that I have to move the red wire in the place of the yellow wire and vice versa ?

[Gerald D]

That is correct Marius. In other words; you reverse one coil of the motor.

But, at this screen today, it does not look "red" anymore! These are the two wires to change around:

4668

[gixi]

Yes I know the problem with colors inside my cable... I'm a little left handed with electricity but building an MM I've learned a lot. Tomorow I'll go to my shop to fix that and many other remains behind. Thanks’ again :).

[dragonfinder1]

I'm left handed at everything:D

[gixi]

As long people like Gerald and Richard and many others on this forum are around me I'm not afraid of new things. In Romania CNC machines represents something new but here most of us are quick learners. So even if you have two left hands, the brains can become the right hand. At the end we are in advantage, we are have more than two hands :cool:.

[gixi]

Yes, yes, yes ! It’s moving… :D Now I should finish the details and of course the Z axis. Gerald I change the wires but one of the engine start to make strange noises so I put back the wires and check again the MACH 3 settings and finally it works. The mistake was when I didn’t setup the A motor. Like many others looking to hear the beautiful music coming from the motors I skip the reading part…:o
But for the moment that noise give a huge boost.
Here’s the link with a small movie taken with mobile camera: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sf88-nfyl4.
Thank you again Gerald !

[Gerald D]

Felicitări! It is a beautiful feeling isn't it? :)

[gixi]

Finally the z axis is starting to get shape. After 6 weeks !!! Here are some pics.

[Kobus_Joubert]

Wow, nice piece of equipment there. How much price difference between the normal Z-slide and this linear bearing type ?

[gixi]

Thanks ! As you presume from the first beginning I was looking to buy something more sophisticated and the first stop was at SKF. They ask for around 2000 EURO. One month ago ISEL was the next and they ask for 1400 EURO. Than I quit searching.
Aluminum – 70 EURO
Bearings and Ball screw – 88 USD
Those 2 bars – 15 EURO
Coupling – 20 EURO
Motor – 50 EURO
Cutting, drilling, etc – 130 EURO
So at the final was around 330 EURO.
The hard part was to find aluminum (thickness 25mm) because everybody is selling large sheet 2x1 meters. I lost at least 2 weeks…
But finally is almost ready and when I said almost because the guys from metal shop forgot to do something but this part is easy to do by my self.

[Gerald D]

Marius, I have two concerns with that slide . . .
- the stiffness after mounting the router
- keeping the screw clean.
Please keep us informed how it works out.

[javeria]

Marius you need to have a bellow like I built one here http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=553393&postcount=214

[gixi]

Gerald yesterday I observe that those guys who built the Z axis forgot to put screws at the end of those bars. I'll do that today... And I told them several times to do that because everything should be sturdy :mad:.

[gixi]

Hello everybody ! Another small step with Z. I chose to wire the motor Bipolar parallel and is moving quite good. After 4 minutes on jog the motor is slightly warm and the Ghecko is cold. There are something to fix: the resistor is for the moment 60 k.
I'm curios to see is the motor is strong enough to handle everything... For the moment if I try to stop the ballscrew with my hand is not possible. The Romanian supplier buy these motor from http://www.motioncontrolproducts.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=6.
All Is good for the moment (I hope...) but I don't know much about setting the motor with Mach3 (steps, velocity, acceleration, etc.).
Any suggestions ?
Thanks,
Marius

[Gerald D]

We need the "pitch" of the screw for setting up Mach3. How far does the screw move if the motor makes one full revolution? (maybe about 5mm?)

[Claudiu]

Hi Marius,

Here´s a pic of what we have talked about. I use them neoprene socks for covering my shock absorbers from be eaten up by dust and mud on my Enduro bike. You can easily also buy a piece of neoprene in the shop and make them for your needed size and lenght.
Advantage of this kind of protection is that they are absolutely impermeable to dust and dirt, but still ultra flexible.
Maybe it fits your needs.

[gixi]

Finally the Z axis is up ! Still something to finish but most of it is ready and is spinning. For the moment I need to wait because the spindle is still on the way. I make the payment last Friday and the Italian seller told that he will send the spindle and VFD in the same day. Till then here are some pics.

[Doug_Ford]

Beautiful work Marius.

[Claudiu]

Hey Marius,

Looking gooood.:)
All problems solved with the technicians? Is the screw straight again?
Hope youre cutting soon.

Bye

[gixi]

Thank you Doug. Yes Claudiu the screw is straight. I found some profesionists in this kind of screws. It was a joke for them to fix the problem... It's a shame that we have here in Bucharest an old factory who produce such screws (Rolls Royce import screws from them) and there are a lot of land sharks who want to build malls on their land...

[gixi]

Friday finally the package arrived with the spindle and VFD. From the package is missing the collets and the wrench but one on the other everything looks OK. I spoke with the Italian seller and he said the package was to heavy (over 10 kg) and he sent the other stuff with another package with normal post.
Yesterday I was plugging in everything and the spindle moves. The spindle it's very silent. Cool stuff :D. Here are some pics with VFD and Spindle.

[BartDeckers]

Hallo Marius,

What is the brand and type of the spindle you bought?
Can you give a price indication.

Thanks,

Bart

[gixi]

Hy Bart,
The spindle and VFD was bought from Italy but I guess both of them are from China. In fact the VFD its for sure from China because is written on side but the brand is very well represented worldwide -"Delta".
The spindle is with the Italian company name on one side and is the same with another Italian "producer" Teknomotor. But one on the other the spindle is very silent and runs quite well. I'll keep everybody update regarding the spindle...
The seller was very nice and the delivery very fast. The seller has made all the settings even he wire the VFD with the spindle. Nice guy.
The total cost including shipping was around 680 EUR.

[Gerald D]

Marius, how does the cooling fan of your spindle work? Is it driven by a separate electric motor, or is the fan on the back end of the spindle shaft?

[gixi]

Gerald the fan is on the back end of the spindle shaft. Wich is is a good thing in my opinion. The result of mounting the fan this way is air stream very strong. The air stream goes along 4 holes on the spindle body from one end to the other. Should I take details picture of the spindle ?
On the maintenance instructions the producer said that the spindle is normal to go with temperature around 60 C.

[Gerald D]

Thanks Marius, I don't need pictures of it.

[gixi]

Well guys finally I can see my first cuts... :)
Here are some pictures. It's bad that I dont have MDF around me but I'll fix that soon.

[Gerald D]

You made my day! The first MM that is offically cutting "behind the Iron Curtain" :)

Well done!!

[domino11]

Well Done Marius! :) Just need some logos for the serial number now!

[gixi]

Well in order to be correct to all members I should wait a few days to make some SMALL adjustments to the X rails.
What happened ? After finishing the small cuts I put the bit on zero. Then using the jog I start to move the spindle along X and Y axis. Surprise :eek: ! In some area is not touching the table and in other to much. When I remeasured the X rails I found small differences in the height of the rails (27.5mm, 27,8mm, 27mm, etc.). So for the moment I send the rails to a metalworking shop to fix that.
But this is a small issue compared to the beautiful moment when something appears on the wood :D!
At the end of the week everything should be set properly.

[Gerald D]

Marius, we do not worry about small differences in rail height . . . .

First we screw the rails down as straight as what we can. Normally we have to add thin plates (shims) where the rails are too low, or where the big channel irons have problems. With the shims we can get a very straight rail. A popular shim is cut from a beer tin/can.

Then we take a 25mm cutter and cut the whole table surface to be parallel to the rails. We call this "surfacing" or to "surface" the table.

So, with a combination of shims and surfacing, the cutter runs exactly parallel to the table.

[gixi]

Today finally I finish to repair the X rails. The funny moment was when they try to put the rails on machine and realize that is no space. What they did ? They cut a small window in a wall near the grinding machine :D!
Finally I get back to my place, put everything in place and all goes well :). But...
When I try to "make some dust" something goes very funny.
My MM is traveling along axis to fast and when I try to decrease Steps in Mach3 the cutting job area become very,very small.
My initial settings was 180 Steps than I go down at 26.526 (as I read in an old thread written by Gerald) and the cutting area as I said become very small.
In that spirit I change the Steps settings to higher value :200. Another surprise ! The cutting area now is larger than the beginning. What I should I verify in Mach settings ? Here are some pictures.

[Greg J]

Marius,

Congrats on the first cuts !! :)

The picture of the hole is the wall is great. :D I like it !!! That is dedication to getting the job done.

I just had new rails fabricated to replace the originals (the original rails were not 100%, I did not replace because of "mileage" ). The first machine shop said they could not do the job. The second shop took 3 weeks and way too much $$$$$$$$$$$. :mad::mad::mad: I was too lazy to implement the new rail design and I paid for it.

Again, Congratulations !!! The best part of this whole project is yet to come.

[Gerald D]

Marius, go carefully on the Mach settings . . . .

Make sure that you are in millimeters and not in inches.

Then use the calculation spreadsheet from here (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4089&postcount=27). I think your motors have 7.2 gearboxes, the gear tooth size is module 1 and your pnion has 24 teeth? (Your "Steps per" setting is then 190.986) Remember to "save" each motor setting before you close the window.

[gixi]

Yes you are wright with my configuration motor, rack, pinion, etc.
My main problem with settings was to understand how the software works combined with the rush for quick results before reading...:o Yesterday I use that spreadsheet with calculation and everything runs quite good. What happened in fact ? Using the Mach to calculate the "Steps per" I get 180 but my settings for "Velocity" was around 8000 mm/min and "Acceleration mm/sec" was 500.
Result: MM start to move like a Suzuki GSXR 1000 which is not good. Not good at all ! Then I start to decrease the Steps per and MM start to decrease speed but the job become smaller and smaller. Next day I remember your spreadsheet with calculation...
Now the settings are:

Steps per - 190.986
Velocity - 1000
Acceleration - 210

Now I'm using ArtCam Insignia who gives a report for the "Machining time" and compared with time in Mach for a job the result was quite similar.
I'm still wondering what happened if I decrease the Acceleration. I want to play more with that because I still got some brutal movement. If I decrease the acceleration to 60 for example the A axis start to move in a funny way and twist the Y axis.
So the 2 cents question is : Is there any formula to get the best settings for Acceleration ?
But as I said in a way or other the beast now is under control :D.
Thank you for the moment :).

[Gerald D]

Can anyone remember the thread where we compared our accel/decel settings?

[Gerald D]

Your A motor must have exactly the same settings as the X-motor . . . to prevent the gantry from going crazy.

Typical settings for Mach motor tuning (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=875)

For your millimeter-based machine:
Steps per: 190.986 (not negotiable)
Velocity: at least 9000 mm/min (very negotiable) but as high as the point where you loose steps.
Your acceleration can be 500 to 700 mm's/sec/sec (not very negotiable)

[hennie]

I will check my machine tomorrow but it sounds the same.(got the hick up with the z-axis again)

[gixi]

Hello everybody !
I didn't post for a long time so here it is my situation for the moment: 99% MM is ready, tested, etc. 1% is for the ballscrew which I forgot to grease him and it start to make strange noises...:mad: I presume a new one is the logical answer.
Touch plate is in my opinion one of the most important feature for MM. It works very well and in the near future I'll finish a touch probe to get the exact corner.
End switches: I use for the moment mechanical type. Of course soft limit is activated...:D
Pictures, pictures:

Gerald you are the best ! :) And of course all the members of this forum.
P.S. I'll post pictures with my setings for Mach. I change the "standard" setings because I like the MM to have a "soft" movement.
Marius

[domino11]

Marius,
Nice Pics. Congratulations! :)

[jhiggins7]

Gerald,

Looks like Marius qualifies for a Serial #. He's painted, he's cutting and he's got logo's. What do you think?

[Gerald D]

Yup, it certainly gets the number!

Marius, are you really sure that you are a lawyer? :D

[sailfl]

Marius,

Congratulations on completing you machine and serial # 32.

[Doug_Ford]

Congrats Marius. Looking good.

[jehayes]

Congratulations Marius! Looking great!

I have decided that my short-term goal in life is now to bring my MechMate in with a serial number less than 100!:D The competition is heating up!

[jhiggins7]

Marius,

Congratulations on Serial # 32.:) The updated Builder's Log is here (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AttqjIPMBEXKcExveGc4d3U0V25zQmMyX1U1eUVhU Xc&hl=en).

[gixi]

Thanks again to all members of this forum ! Now it's the moment to start to make some dust :D !
Gerald believe or not but I'm a lawyer and also my wife is a lawyer and we work together.
My passion for wood was the real boost for me to build an MM. In order to produce very special things a cnc machine it's a must.
But this is not the end and in the near future I'm starting to ad an indexer to my MM or to build another one but this will be the plan for the begining of the next year.
Of course I'll keep inform everybody about everything.
Thank's again.

[Claudiu]

Hi Marius,

Congrats for your Work and of course for Number #32 !!!
Looking gooood!

Felicitari

[domino11]

Here Here for #32! :)

[Gerald D]

Heath, I sometimes see that "Here Here" thing and wonder what it means in other cultures. I remember the use of "hear hear" proclaimed in meetings after a speaker has made a worthy statement, as "hear this man!". But I have never understood the "here here" when somebody shows something?¿?¿?

[Robert M]

Heath, excuse me to budge in....
Gerald, I’m definitively no history expert, best I can remember, relate and explain this in my own way about this old “ hear hear” is, it’s a parliament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parlement)House of Commons inspired “partisanry” old, old thing….

Still today we see “parliamentarians” so called “politicians” or MP’s ( Members of parliament (http://www.parliament.uk/mpslordsandoffices/index.cfm) ) proudly pronounce in a loud-bold fashion this “hear-hear” when a colleague MP replies or make a statement and they want to show support and/or approving what was stated, by showing the adversary party a loud impression that everybody is in favor of what has been said. The more & louder, the more “petit” the adversary may feels..... A BAD EGO based thing.... Human kind I guess .... ?
Bottom line, it a support thing from a partisan ….. ;)

[Doug_Ford]

I bet Heath had just never thought about it. Neither had I but I'm glad you pointed it out Gerald. Heck, until a couple of years ago, I thought the expression, "for all intents and purposes..." was "for all intensive purposes..." :o

[jehayes]

I know this is Waaaaaay off topic but to follow up on Doug #3's comment: For an excellent example of misunderstood phrases, check out this Youtube link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpAzvKt_8lk&feature=related

[domino11]

Gerald,
It was meant in acknowlegement of achievement or perhaps as someone would say to toast and accomplishment. Like Doug, I could not tell you exactly where it came from but have heard it used many times.
I guess Congratulations would have been simpler. :)

[gixi]

That's not a big thing ! I presume from the start that domino11 wish me all the best :) !
Here are some test with the touch plate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jOTpfz_AMk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9zZL0_ALz0

This week I'll hope the final design for the plate will be ready... I can't forget how many time it was lost just to wait for others to finish their job...:mad:

[gixi]

Here is my new toy :D. This is a MUST in order to get the perfect results from MM.
I'm not a huge fan of MDF. Nothing compares with solid wood :).
At the end I should present the old working horse in every medium workshop.

[Robert M]

Marius, I don’t get it ?
What’s the link with this jointer or sliding table saw, perfect result from MM & MDF ??
Maybe getting connected a future dust collector for your MM to these :D

[cncb]

nice! no fence on the jointer? how do you work on the shaper with the skid and debris in front of it?? :D

[gixi]

Robert, my MM it will be used to produce furniture doors. Most of the customers start to ask for solid wood doors and it's normally taking in consideration the beauty of solid wood. A few weeks ago I try to use a large bit to "repair" a bended piece of lumber. It takes tooo long.
On the other hand MDF it's much easier to cut, make a profile but it's not wood. Painted MDF is good to produce bath furniture. For the moment MM is just sleeping but soon will show his real value.
I open this subject in order to give ideas to other for new ways of using MM. Doors is the most important part in the process of building furniture. Yes, dust collector it's the next step. But I have to delay this step until I finish preparing the REAL space for production (800 square meters).
That's the idea.
Marius

[gixi]

Hy guys !
What can I say...? MM is a real workhorse and save the day helping me to finish 12 wine racks. At the beginning the idea was to cut half circles on one of my shapers using a template. Bad idea. So MM save the project and cut almost 400 pieces 1000mm x 110mm x 20mm. The wood was beech.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP9QO_nEOss

[gixi]

One more thing... I don't know what kind of bit use most of you but this one is a real winner.

[danilom]

I just love the tension when the bit goes over the clamps :)
makes me sweat every time. good work !
Did you get a clean enough edge with this chipbreaker? as its purpose is to rough cut and then finish with another bit. Your feed/rpm seems a bit low for a 3 flute bit that may be the reason, but if it worked for you its ok?
How much bits you used for those 400 pcs?

[gixi]

I know the feeling regarding "bit over clamps" :D.
Yes the feed could be a little higher (just 12mm/sec) but I prefer to play safe. The material became too weak because of too many cuts on both sides.
One bit for 300 pcs because at the beginning I use an 8mm/2 flute. This one is 12mm solid carbide (from CMT). Now I'll send the bit for sharpening.

[OldRat]

One more thing... I don't know what kind of bit use most of you but this one is a real winner.

Hi, Marius,
Salut! Jos palaria!
Things concerning metal should concern wood also, regarding tools & machining.
So, here You are some general things, I'm sure You heared about.
It happens very often that machining a piece (milling wood, in your case) is done in (at least) two stages: roughing & finishing.
Each stage has his dedicated tool. Even if they seem to be similar and seem do the same job, each one has its specific role.
The tool in the picture is a roughing mill. I would call it in Your language "freza cilindro-frontala cu dinti inclinati intretupti, pentru ebosare". Those "dents" on the cutting edges and the spiral of the edge make cuttind force go down, because marerial is attacked progresively (spiral - opposite to straight edge) and in small amounts ("dents" which break the chips = shorter effective cutting edge length opposite to continuous cutting edge).
The role of this one is to ensure removal of a lot of materilal, quickly. What means a lot and how quick, I can tell You about for tools machining metal.

Usually, tools have something similar to a "User's guide". You can (or can not) find it in the tools catalogues issued by the tool's producer. It gives You data the way the producer recommends his tool to be used, adica "regimul de aschiere".
The tool in the picture must not ensure a "perfect" surface because it is driven to leave a small amount of material for the next one, the finishing tool.
The finishing mill may look similar to the roughing one or not. Certainly it won't have "dents" and the cutting edges may be spiral or may be straight. It's role is to give You a smooth, finished surface.

I wrote all this because of the statement in Your post:"... I don't know what kind of bit use most of you ..."

Here You are some hints:
- best tool brand You can afford
- best tool material You can afford (integral carbide = OK OK)
- biggest dia of the cutting part of the tool as well as biggest tool shank dia (maximum rigidity & minimum rpm for the same cutting speed)
- try to find cutting data for each tool You use = regimul de aschiere al sculei in cauza (S & F), adancimea de aschiere (pe raza sculei) si numarul de treceri (pe inaltime) pentru materialul piesei de prelucrat
- roughing pass AND finishing pass
- ALLWAYS SHARP TOOLS (You allready do so: tool life shoud be provided by the tool's producer along with the cutting data and should tell You after how much time the tool needs a re-sharpening, if used accordingly to the producer's indicaton. You may follow his advice or not, but, it gives You some figures to compare with Your own experience - valid for cutting data too)
- go for spiral cutting edges (less vibration & lower stress on the machine and tool and part to be machined and on everything that clamps the part to the machine's table, better surfaces)

Good luck & let us know from time to tine ... :-) !

[gixi]

Pictures are from a russian site...

[Jason Marsha]

Wow this takes wood trim to a whole new level

[gixi]

Because everything goes well soon I'll install the 4th axis on MM.
Here are some videos with the new CNC:
http://youtu.be/-l_5Hh7qjBw
http://youtu.be/UIYIbUbaBV0
http://youtu.be/EueSW8tuT3Y
http://youtu.be/Dr_RIbUktzc
Have a nice day to all !