Update on new Chinese Water cooled Spindle

[waynec]

I know I promised pictures, but its too grusome at this moment. Heres the blow by blow to this point.

I received the spindle from HomeshopCNC.com well packaged and in timely fashion. All was as I ordered, and the business owner was responsive and seemed knowledgeable.

The spindle itself seemed to be good quality, particularly compared to the Porter Cable router I'm replacing. It weighed about 16 lbs, and the bearing rotation was smooth and very precise. The VFd was less impressive, but came with a detailed manual and clearly labeled connections, or so I thought.

I got time last weekend to wire it up. I followed the directions to connect two legs of 220V, and ground. But instructions on the grounding weren't clear, so I relied on the schematic. I ended up wiring the ground incorrectly, and I fried the unit instantly when I connected it. ARGGH!

I contacted the company, and Rick replaced the unit same day no questions asked. He had me send a picture of how I connected the power, and then referred me to a tech that helped me get the power connected correctly. That same tech helped me to do the initial programming. Inside a week I had a new controller, correctly wired and programmed to run as a standalone VFD. So far so good.

I had some trouble getting the water pump working. Ended up I had some gunk plugging the inside of the water passage in the spindle. A short blast of 90psi compressed air took care of that, and now my fish tank pump pushs plenty of water thru the spindle.

I've test ran the spindle at full rated speed for about a minute with the water running. It sounded wonderful, like a sewing machine or some other well tuned machine. No horrible whine or growl like my Porter Cable. After one minute, the water was not even beginning to show any warmth, and the spindle was totally cool to the touch. So far so good.

I bought a speed control board from CNC4PC. This board will take the output of Mach3 and convert it to a variable voltage that the VFD will use to vary the speed of the spindle. But that board needs more power than my VFD can provide, so I'm now waiting for a small power supply to provide power.

The VFD has a wide range of settings, most of which won't be used. I can vary the acceleration, ramp up and down the speeds, set starting speed floors, timing for start up and change of direction, on and on. I'll start with simple set up and go back after I learn. The manual is in English, but has been poorly translated and involves some educated guesswork to figure out.

I've spent some nervous hours wondering if I'd spend a bunch of money on a pile of junk. So far that does not seem to be the case. Its spinning, and well on the way to being installed.

I'll try to get some pics posted in the next day or so. Now, where did I put that digital camera?

Wayne from White Salmon

[Gerald D]

I've test ran the spindle at full rated speed for about a minute with the water running.

Hope that you spent about 5 - 10 minutes running at about half speed before going for that full speed. The bearings need to warmed up before full speed and/or load.

[javeria]

Well that's a good bit of information Wayne, do post some pictures, is the spindle manufacturer marked? (is there a name on the spindle?)

RGDS
Irfan

[javeria]

HI wayne, just saw you having problems interfacing your C6 board (on the cnc4pc yahoo group) with the VFD, how good is it doing. maybe some one in this forum can help.

[kaartman]

Hi Wayne
You convinced me to get the same spindle and VFD from Rick,could you be so kind to post the pictures of how it is done the correct way, and also the tech support information
Thank you

[waynec]

Koning, well I'm not fully convinced myself. I still dont' have my spindle installed, and its turing into a PITA. But I have to say the quality of the spindle itself, and Rick's willingness to replace my toasted VFD make me feel OK about this learning curve stuff.

I have a couple pics on my camera, but I'm off to work the day job and won't be able to post them till this afternoon. I'll show you the spindle, the water hookup, and the VFD. Maybe by then I'll be able to get my wiring straightened out and get the thing spinning.

Javeria, I'm still having problems, but getting closer. Right now I'm trying to get output from Mach 3 pins to the speed controller board, and verify outputs from the speed controller board that will go to the VFD.

So far, I get outputs at the step pin and the spindle on pin, but both are very low voltage. With the spindle on and set to 20,000 rpm in Mach 3, the voltage at the input of the C6 is just .25 volts. The spindle-on signal is 3 volts. The output of the C6 speed control board is just 4.2 volts.
Arturo Duncan of CNC4PC thinks maybe I need a Parallel port buffer to bring my parallel port signals up to a full 5v/20ma. The board is $12 and another week. I think I'll try to adjust the pulse width and see if putting the pin to active hi/lo changes anything. Otherwise I'll probably end up buying the buffer board. First a nickle, then a dime.

I'll have some questions on the on/off relay, but I want to check out the circuit continuity first. The light comes on and I hear a click when I apply spindle on voltage, but I get no output voltage from the C6. But I think I'm supposed to get a switch open/closed, not voltage at the output. I assume this means the VFD supplies the voltage to be switched by the relay. I'll have to read the VFD manual on this.

This is actually sort of fun to puzzle out. Its good to have help from people who know, and good to learn this stuff. But it makes me nervous to have a cool $1000 of spindle and goodies not making any parts for me yet. If you have any suggestions, I'd be happy to hear them.

Wayne from White Salmon

[javeria]

Wayne, dont worry - its always a steep learning curve for all of us. to reassure you read this thread of mine on the zone.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60710
There are a lots of ups and downs and your is not so big one - i assure you - you will figure it out.

what is the model of the VFD, did you try sending out the data sheet for the VFD to Arturo?

My best to you

RGDS
Irfan

[waynec]

OK, finally some pictures.

I hope these are detailed enough to be sensible. I have included a pic of the spindle, a pic of the speed control board partially wired, a pic of the partially wired VFD.
2265

2266

2267

I'm in the process of getting this wired up. The instructions are less than clear, particularly since I don't know what I'm doing. But I'm getting help from Arturo of CNC4PC, and from the Mach forum. Its gonna work.

So far, I was able to get the Mach 3 output configured to provide the spindle-on signal and the speed control output. The CNC4PC instruction show how to set up Mach 3 to do this, but assumes you have basic understanding of how to set up pins and ports in Mach 3. The instructions include a wiring diagram that show where to connect things on a diagram of the actual cirucit board. Not too tough.

The CNC4PC board converts the Mach 3 spindle step output to the varying voltage the VFD requires. Getting this setup was only tricky because I didn't know how to set up outputs in Mach. A few minutes with the video tutorials got me understanding this.

After checking voltages on the C6 board I found that Mach 3 was sending a very weak output voltage. In checking the output at the parallel port pins, the spindle-on voltage was only 3V. Arturo of CNC4PC suggested that I needed a parallel port buffer to bring these up to a full 5V output. I put the buffer board on today, and this seemed to work. The C6 speed control board is now putting out 9V when Mach 3 spindle speed is set to 22000 rpm. It also triggers the C6 relay when Mach 3 spindle ON button is pressed.

My next step is to figure out what voltage I can safely use to trigger the Spindle-On relay on the VFD. The C6 speed control card provides working relay contacts, but I have to provide the voltage that this relay switches. I think I can pull this from the same voltage that powers the C6 card. I'm not real clear on ground isolation, so I'm reluctant to do this until I hear from someone who knows.

But once I get voltage to that Spindle-On relay I'll be able to control the spindle On/Off and rotation direction with Mach 3. GROOVY!

From there, its do some testing and VFD programming, and start working on a clean install.

I'm getting closer. Thanks for your patience and help here.

Wayne from White Salmon

[Doug_Ford]

Wayne,

That spindle looks sharp. You sure are giving me the bug for one like it. I hope everything works out.

[javeria]

Wayne, I am assuming that the spindle provides the voltage for the switching and you have to only connect the VDF terminals to the relays.

have you downloaded the instructions for connecting different VFD's on arturo's web site?

http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=58

never mind if you have already read them!

if you have the datasheet of your VFD post it here - I will compare with others.

RGDS
Irfan.

[waynec]

Well, I'm still stuck on how to wire the spindle on relay. I have the correct switching action at the controller. I get spindle on relay switching at the speed controller.
But I'm not sure where to get the voltage that this relay switches. The manual shows what the VFD Spindle ON input requires, but I'm not sure where to get that voltage. I think it probably comes from the VFD, but I want to be sure, and to make sure I use the right ground or common as well.
Anyway, I'm very close to getting it going. Thanks for your encouragement. One good thing is that I'll be sure to share this info with this board and with the seller and CNC4PC so others will have an eaiser time getting going.

Wayne

[Gerald D]

Wayne, if you tell us which VFD (manufacturer/model number) you are using, or give us a link to an on-line manual, we would have a better chance of helping you.

[waynec]

Gerald
Thanks as always for being willing to help.

I contacted the company I purchased from, who sent me to a partner in my neck of the woods that was able to help me by phone. A couple phone calls and I was up and running.

As it turned out, the manual is less than complete and misleading. The VFD connections for the spindle on/FWD provide the voltage, and the relay on the CNC4PC card switches this voltage to ground back on the VFD. Its not tricky once you know that key information about what the VFD does and needs. There was some programming on the VFD, which is also not well explained in the manual. The second phone call got this squared away.

Now its all working correctly. Speed changes in Mach3 give me changes in speed at the spindle. Spindle off/on in Mach 3 turns the spindle off and on. Also, the run and stop buttons on the spindle work, so I can override Mach3 and turn the spindle off by pressing the button on the VFD. I don't have the relay for CCW cutting wired now because I don't use CCW bits. If I did, a second pinout from Mach 3 would latch a second relay on the speed control board, and then on to control the REV input on the VFD.

I ran the spindle for 15 minutes at 15000 rpm to warm it up (thanks Gerald for the reminder). It never got hot at all, and was barely noticeable temperature increase after the warm up period. The water was getting warmer, but not near hot. So I think my fish tank pump will work to provide water flow. So far, so good. I'll have to see if I have enough flow when the tubing is in place. If not, I'll install a pump used to pump water in instant-on hot water systems or solar systems. I know I can get one of these with adequate flow and head.

The spindle is gloriously quite at any speed. Low enough to talk over and not as loud as a sewing machine. I'm sure that moving thru materials will be louder.

So, while this cost a few more bucks that I originally thought, its working and will likely do the job I want. Next will be some pics of the install on my machine. Then some test cuts. Onward!

Hopefully this is useful to folks here at Mech Mate.

Wayne from White Salmon

[Robert M]

Thanks for this great info & good to know someone who has the recipe & experience to make those function :D
Robert;)

[javeria]

Wayne, that was a good write up - just try to sketch up the circuit for us.

good luck for you installation on the router.

RGDS
Irfan

[waynec]

I finally got all the bits working. I now have the spindle installed and I'm starting some simple testing.

I got it all wired on the bench first, working out the issues with relays, VFD programming, etc. I got help from the a fellow that the seller recommended that was just what I needed. I got the spindle working thru Mach 3 on the bench in short order.

Today I did the physical installation of the several circuit carts and bits, the spindle, and the water cooling system.

I mounted the speed control card inside my Ascension control box. I also mounted a parallel port buffer card inside. I just screwed these to the chasis, and used standoffs to mount them. I ran the wires thru an opening in the chasis and used wire ties to clean up the install.

Next, I installed an EStop switch on the CNC that is in line with my existing limit switches. The switch is conveniently located to the position I normally work at on the CNC, and stops both motor motion and spindle rotation. This on was overdue, and way easy to do. I got the Estop switch from the same place I got the speed control card from- CNC4PC.com.

Next, I installed an power off paddle switch for the VFD. The VFD doesn't have an emergency off switch, so I installed a simple power off switch with a large OFF paddle so I can shut off power at the spindle if the software or computer locks up. I got the switch from Grizzly tools for less than $15US.

Mounting the spindle was less than perfect, but OK for starters. I'm sure it will be different for Mechmate builders. I removed my Porter Cable router and its bracket, and instlled the new bracket for the water cooled spindle. I got this bracket from K2CnC. It doesn't fit, so I had to use shims to get the spindle to fit the bracket. After some messing about to get the brackets square to the table surface I mounted the spindle.

Next came the spindle wire routing, which went easier than I thought. I removed the Porter Cable extension cord and right in its place installed the new spindle cable and the two tubes for water. The plastic tubing was too short, so I'll have to get some longer pieces to tidy things up, but its no harder than running regular router wiring.

Long story short (too late for that I guess). I ran a test warm up run with the spindle in place, and checked the range of movement of the gantry and Z axis. I was worried that I would get noise from the spindle causing erratic movements of the gantry. So far, this has not proven to be a problem. The gantry and Z axis move while the spindle is operating without a hitch.

During the warm up I touched the spindle several times to monitor the heat. After 5 minutes at 10K r pm the spindle was not as warm as a mug of coffee. No more heat than my Porter Cable. After another five minutes at 18K rpm it was still just warm to the touch.

I checked the water flow thru the fish tank pump, and found a weak stream was making its way thru the loop to my five gallon bucket of water. That stream was not making me feel it was adequate for a full workload of heat. I'm going to follow up on that to make sure I have enough flow. I also discovered that my plastic water tubing is not quite long enough, so I'll have to replace it with lengths that allow full motion and some slack.

Finally, I ran some cutting tests just manually moving the spindle with a half inch two flute cutter thru some MDF. At lower RPMs (5K) it showed some loading at full depth in 3/4 " material. But when I increased RPMs to 12K, the spindle did fine at cutting thru at full depth. The cutter was not sharp, so I'm sure I'll get better performance with more testing and dialing in correct feed and speed settings and a decent bit. More on that tomorrow.

So, thanks all for the help. Its a bit of a technical workout for those of us with less tech experience. But I was able to get the bits of info I needed from the Mach 3 forum and from the seller and his tech support.

It's gonna work. Its WAY quieter than the Porter Cable router, but I can't tell yet if its more powerful. We'll see with some testing tomorrow. Longer term is harder to say. I'm just a hobbiest at this point, so I don't really test a full duty cycle of all day/every day workload.

Thanks for your help and patience, all. If you want some pics I'm happy to provide them. Just let me know. I can also provide some tech details on connections and spindle programming.

Wayne from White Salmon

[javeria]

Ya Wayne what ever you can provide - it would be welcome.

and wonderful writeup.

RGDS
Irfan

[WTI]

Are you going to run straight water, or are you going to add some anti freeze to prevent corrosion?

Also, are you running the water all the way down to a bucket on the floor?

I have seen where the water just runs to a small radiator on the gantry itself. A closed system, so to speak.

[waynec]

WTI
You ask a great question. I'm planning to run tubes all the way down to a five gallon bucket on the floor. I'm thinking to add a larger pump, something with more lift capacity. Probably a Grundfoss 15-42F or the like. This will provide more than enough flow.
The problem I think is the very skinny tubing. Effectively it becomes a big resistor to the water flow. That idea makes you think that a gantry mounted radiator, with its shorter lines, would have less line resistance, and likely need much less pump. True enough. But I'm already halfway down the line with my floor mounted resevoir, so I'll continue this direction and just upsize the pump.

I did get to cut some material. The cuts were in 3/4 MDF, just simple jog movements. There was some chatter, and lots of noise until I increased the RPM of the spindle to proper cutting speed and feed. Then things got much better, quieter and better cut quality. These were not well designed tests, so no conclusions at this point. But it is WORKING.

Also, I'm getting jumps in speed when I move my mouse. I have a wireless mouse, so I want to eliminate this with a tailed mouse to see if this is a simple fix.

I'll be working more this weekend, and will try to take a couple pics of the install. Also, I WILL produce some sort of connection diagram- what a great idea.

Thanks all for your interest and help.
Wayne from White Salmon
The

[domino11]

Wayne,
I have heard lots of horror stories on wireless keyboards and or mice when used with cnc stuff. Have not tried it myself but a lot of people say to stay away. Some brands seem to work better than others.

[WTI]

http://cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=47608&d=1196267534

You see many versions of this router, but what I'm pointing out is the radiator for the spindle rides on the gantry.

A small aluminum radiator from a motorcycle would seem like an easy "off the shelf" solution. A small fan could aid the heat exchange and keep dust from coating the unit.

[Gerald D]

I think you would all be surprised at how small and simple such a "radiator" can be. Six feet of 1/4" copper pipe wound 8 times around a 3" mandrel, placed in front of a standard fan should be more than enough. The speed of water flow can also be a lot slower than most would expect. Water is an excellent vehicle for carrying heat out of the spindle.

If your water flow fills a beer glass in a whole minute, the water temp will not rise more than 20C [36F] while cooling a 3kW [5HP] spindle that is only 80% efficient and running under full load. . . . if my memory of thermal calcs still serves me right! :)

[waynec]

Gerald, if that calc is true, I may be alright with my fish tank pump. I'll run a little Beer Glass test and see how I do.

I don't typically run the router as a production tool, so the heat issue is not huge for me. One reason I liked the idea of water cooled is because of what you point out- water is a great heat sink and can carry lots more heat than moving air.

If my test runs close, I'll call it good and just monitor the heat at the spindle for awhile.

Thanks for the uh.... calculation.

The new pump would cost me about $80 US, plus fittings, so would quickly put another $100 on the total for this project. If I don't have to, I don't want to.

OH, BTW, I'll be running just water thru the tubes. Its more than enough, and my shop won't get cold enough to freeze up.

Wayne

[TonyBert]

Wayne,

If you are looking for small radiators look at the various computer water cooling suppliers such as DangerDen or car heater cores and if a fan is needed there is always 12 volt muffin fans.

Tony

[javeria]

What I would do is to connect the water duct to the water inlet from the overhead tank and route it to the ground tank, the overhead tank has a auto pump switcher - so it will take care of all and there will be water any time, just have to have a automated valve to let water in when spindle starts. In my case its easy bcos i need only minimum plumbing. - I am not sure if a CPU cooler is enough to be used as a cooler for the spindle...

may be with synthetic coolant added it might work better.

RGDS
IRfan

[dragonfinder1]

Wayne.

Here's a deal for you. Three of us are getting ready to build MechMates. In exchange for a tour of a operating MechMate we could supply you with a cooling system for your spindle for trial. If it works, it's yours to keep. If not, well your really not out anything.

The guys at DangerDen are sure it will work, the only catch is you have to report back here, works or not.

We live about 3 hours away and could be there any weekend after football season ( we're in the final four, two more weekends hopefully )

Let me know.

Dave

[kaartman]

Hi Wayne
Thank you for the information on the spindle setup, I have received my spindle and it does look solid. I bought the PMDX 106 card to control the spindle, hope that the PMDX 122 and 106 will be easier to connect, at this moment am I planning the kitchen table project.

[waynec]

I'd be happy to take you up on your offer, but I'm sorry to say I don't own a MechMate. I have a modified Shopbot PR, with an Ascension controller and Mach3 software. Its nothing close to the quality of the MechMate, I'm sorry to say.

But if its interesting to see my controller or spindle setup, I'm happy to share what I can.

I'm still not done with the install of the cooling part. I just bought a transmission radiator and I'm waiting for a couple parts to plumb it all. I decided to install a small tank, the fishtank pump, and a small resevoir up at the spindle. This will eliminate the long tubes and allow me to use the parts I have to get good cooling.

Sorry, I feel like a cheater getting all this great info here. But this website is much closer to the type of machine I have than any other site I know of, even the ShopBot forum.

Thanks again GERALD for this great resource.

Wayne
White Salmon, WA

[Gerald D]

Wayne, I don't see you as a cheater at all!

[dragonfinder1]

Too bad you don't have a MechMate, we wouldn't hold that against you. Too bad I didn't catch you before you bought the tranny cooler. We are interested in the spindle as well as the router since one of us will probably start with a spindle and I will go with one in the near future.

I wouldn't feel like a cheater if I were you, several people here don't have MechMates, but like you, provide a lot of information that help the rest of us.

Maybe we can get together in a few weeks and we'll at least buy you lunch for a tour.

Dave

[waynec]

Koning
I'm sure willing to share what I know about the wiring. But I have to say that the wiring for my make and model may not be the same as yours.

That said, I'll put a wiring diagram and some notes together tonite and try to get it posted. I'll post it as a new thread- wiring the VFD or something like that, so its easy to get to.

I've been meaning to do that anyway.

Wayne

[kaartman]

Thank you Wayne, I have seen it and it is great, thank you again,

[sehast]

Wayne, I just finished reading your thread on your new spindle. I have been debating whether to get one of these for several months. I have talked to HomeShopCNC and they seem to be good folks to deal with. I also have a K2 router mount that I think I can shim, its already close (about 3.5 inch) to 80 mm required. How did you shim yours? Now that you have had a little more time cutting with the new spindle, how do you like it? Do you think the fish tank pump still will be OK? Have you been able to confirm the run out spec? Does the extra weight of the new spindle over tax your Z motor? The router I am currently using only weighs about 6 lbs so I am a little concerned since I only have a 150 oz-inch motor and a 2 to 1 mechanical advantage.

Steve

[Greolt]

I,m sorry this is not on a Mechmate.

However there seems to be a bit of interest in these Chinese water cooled HF spindles.

This one is 1.5kw (2hp) water cooled, ER16 nose, 24000rpm, 400hz.

I use a Hitachi SJ200 VFD. It was only a little more money than a Chinese one and I decided to go this way.

I use a Homman Designs DigiSpeed to interface the control to Mach3. Works a treat.

It leaked a little water when I got it. Easily fixed. But the water leaked in a way that it went past the bearings. Will it reduce the life of the bearings? I don't know.

Another user here in Aus. got one with one winding shorted to the case. Again easily fixed but that is sometimes what you get from China.

Overall I am very happy with it. I would definitely buy one again.

Greg

[waynec]

Steve,
I can't really give an endorsement of performance at this point. I'm still not done installing the water cooling part, so I haven't really done more than a couple short tests. But I expect I'll be satisfied with it.

I got a spindle mount from K2 that was just oversized, and shimmed it with brass shim stock. Its a hack job, and I'll want to fix this later. I made a cut file for some phenolic stock I have, and once I'm up and running I'll use this to make a prototype holder. If that works, I'll consider trying one out of aluminum. I've never cut aluminum, so I may have someone with a better setup do this job.

The cooling has turned into a PITA, but it could have been simplified. The fish tank pump is CLOSE to working, but not quite. It would work if the tubes and fittings going to the spindle were a size or two larger. The smaller tubing is just a bit too much resistance for the smalle pump to overcome, so any disturbance to flow like bubbles, can stop the flow or slow it to very low levels. I've got a larger pump coming, and when I get that done I'll be sure to report.

All that might have been avoided if I had taken the route of another poster who is going to solder or braze larger hose fittings to the fittings that come with the spindle. This would have put more water at the spindle with less loss to tube resistance, at least in theory. I searched for larger fittings or adaptors, but couldn't find them.

The spindle doesn't seem to be any more strain on my gantry than the PorterCable router was. I did need to add a spring to counteract the load, but it doesn't bend or flex the gantry signficantly that I can see. I may find problems when I run it alot, but I think it will be no significant change there. I have a fairly beefy extruded aluminum gantry, not the original stuff at all. I also upgraded the Z axis motor and linear actuator so its more than enough to handle this. When in doubt, overbuild.

Hope this helps. I still can't tell if I did the right thing. Its lots cheaper than the HSD 3 hp spindle, even with all the fish pump extravaganza and extra controller card parts and whatnot. So if it performs even marginally better it will be worth it. I don't set the threshold too high, evidently.

Hope this is useful info.

Wayne

[sehast]

Wayne,
Thanks much for the info. Lots to ponder for me. Look forward to hearing more when you are complete and can really put it through its paces.

Steve

[waynec]

I finally got the pump for my water cooled spindle installed and working today. It works just liked I hoped, and while it looks goofy, it makes me feel that no matter the load I don't need to worry about overheating the spindle.

The motor I used was a Grundfos pump typically used for recirculating hot water in hydronic heating systems. It costs about $70-90 US, plus flanges and fittings. Its rated at 1/25 hp, and has a 3 speed control and a built in check valve. Its very quiet, and also a good bit heavier than the fish tank pump I tried first. So far, I'm much more satisfied with the Grundfos pump.

The tubing showed clearly that water was flowing easily thru the smaller fittings. Air bubbles were quickly moved to the resevoir. At the high speed its really more cooling than is needed. I'll be able to use the lower speed setting and get adequate flow.

I did get to run a short file, and now I'm starting to feel better about the purchase and install costs. The spindle is quieter by half at least, and doesn't bog down on my first test. I can set the spindle rpm in the program, and change the spindle rpm with Mach 3's onscreen override settings. PERFECT. I did warm the spindle up for 10 minutes, and you can feel the heat being removed by the water. The spindle motor and tubes get warm, but not near hot. I'll test more tomorrow to see if a heavier load causes any significant change in heat.

I'll get some pics tomorrow. You guys have to see the Klugepile bunch of tubing and wiring this adds to the machine.


Wayne from White Salmon

[Robert M]

Wayne, thanks for your reports on this spindle issue & looking much forward for your continuing upcoming reports w/photos. Robert ;)

[javeria]

Wayne, thanks for that detailed writing - looking forward for the pictures :)

RGDS
IRfan

[javeria]

Hi Wayne - kindly flash the pictures - atleast I am waiting to see em desp...

RGDS
Irfan

[waynec]

Here are a couple pics of the coolant system for my water cooled spindle. I'm not proud, and maybe even embarrassed about the current install, but it IS working, and the components seem to be good ones so far.



http://www.Goes-Postal.com/post/cool1.jpg

The first pic is a rear view. The red thing hanging from the underside is the Grundfoss pump. The small tube is the output side, and it goes directly to the spindle. The output side of the spindle, not visible from this pic, feeds into the resevoir. The resevoir is just a plastic tupperware style container. I put two bulkhead fittings onto it, and filled it with a combo of water and antifreeze (about 10% antifreeze I'm guessing). The output side of the resevoir connects to the transmission cooler, which is the big black radiator thing. The output of the tranny cooler connects to the pump and completes the loop.

http://www.Goes-Postal.com/post/cool2.jpg

Second pic shows a side view to show how things mounted up. I have an alum bar that connects to my Z actuator. Its what I connect my Shopbot style cable carrier to. I simply mounted a piece of slotted angle iron to this, and bolted on whatever brackets and mounts I needed. It travels with the Z axis, and hangs off the back side of my vertical style aluminum gantry. Hope the pictures make some sense.

It ain't pretty, but it does work. The larger pump provides more than adequate flow. The resevoir is small, but adequate. The whole mess hangs on the top of my Z axis linear actuator and goes along for the ride.

I was expecting the additional weight to be a problem, but it doesn't seem to be so far. What I do now have is confidence that the spindle will not overheat. In my first several tests I've let the spindle warm up for 10 or 15 minutes and the water does get warm moving from the spindle to the pump. After the warm up period you can feel heat in the water, radiator, and tubes, but nowhere near enough to be a danger to the spindle. Still, no test under load to this point.

Getting the system going was a bit of a challenge. If there are air bubbles anywhere the pump may not be able to push water thru. I ended up using a sump pump (the kind you use to remove water from a flooded basement) and a temporary hose to force water thru the radiator. It took just a second or two, but it removed all air bubbles and the Grundfoss pump was able to pump once this was done.

Thanks for your help and pointers all in getting this going. This is going to work. I just need to clean up the install.

[Doug_Ford]

It looks great Wayne. I'm really envious.

[javeria]

great Wayne - I am looking forward to work on my spindle soon.


RGDS
Irfan.

[javeria]

Wayne , any updates you wanna share with us now?

RGDS
IRfan

[waynec]

I'm sorry I havent added much more about the spindle. Its up and working, and seems to be doing fine. I know the cooling system is working and that the speed control is working and Mach 3 controls it just fine.

I just ran a set of five Adirondac chairs. Each chair uses 5 1x12 pine boards. I can cut thru the material in a single pass, but hold down becomes an issue, so I used two passes with bridges, which worked fine. I did break a worn 1/4" bit on a knot. The spindle reduces the cut time to under half of the time with the Porter Cable router. Its quieter, but not that much less because of the whine of the quarter inch spiral bit. There is no burning, very little chatter and no sound of strain AT ALL on the spindle. It gets warm but never hot. The tranny cooler radiator was not overkill.

I played with speed and feed rates, and found that if I pushed too hard, or if the bit was worn I could get the spindle to stop and the VFD to give an error message. This happened maybe three times, and when I reduced the feed rate from 220 ipm to 160 ipm I got more consistent results. That's plenty fast thru knotty pine. I'm still working on getting Constant Velocity optimized, so I get rounded corners on some tightly spaced moves. That's not related to the spindle.

I just started, or re-started my custom woodworking business, which much get priority for now. I had intended to create a sort of mini- ebook on installing the watercooled spindle, but I won't be able to until I get some business work done.

Thanks for your patience, all. If some of you need some info on specific parts, I'm more than happy to respond. I check the forum almost daily.

Congrats to President Obama, and here's to HOPE.

Wayne

[javeria]

Thanks Wayne for the update :)

[kaartman]

Hey Wayne, I ran my spindel last night without Mach as a test, just on/of and sone speeds up and down, at first i thought the winding sound was a worn bearing, suppose it has to be like that, wil work on mach setup, dont understand it yet and dont know how to start, just has to i guess

Happy Cutting

[waynec]

Koning,
Congrats on getting it fired up. Do you have the cooling part done yet? And what kind of VFD do you have? There may be some programming to do on the VFD before put it in service. But I know how good it is to just hear the thing spin and get it wired to this point.

Onward!

Wayne

[dacostad]

I have one of these Chinese SPindles and VFD's and I am trying to figure out how to connect the VFG to my CNC4PC C11 board for spindle on/off and speed control - can anyone help?

Thanks

David

[javeria]

david - you do have the manual for the vfd haven't u?

[dacostad]

Yes, but it's not helping.

David

[javeria]

can you post it here pls - atleast we can try.

[dacostad]

Sure, here it is.

Thanks

David

[waynec]

David

Congrats on the new spindle and VFD. It may be slightly different model than the one I have, but I can give some general instructions.

Here's the connections:
1) Input voltage- Terminals marked R S and T are for the voltage input. This is where you connect your 220 V single phase if that's what you are using. Use TWO of the three terminals if you have single phase power. I don't know what voltage or phase power you have, but it connects here. If its US 220V single phase, you'd connect the two HOT legs to any two of these three terminals. In single phase 220V, the neutral leg connects to terminal E, the ground terminal. I'd check input voltage with a meter to be sure. Getting it wrong here will release the magic smoke from inside the VFD. Just be sure not to connect the neutral to any of the three input voltage terminals, or a hot lead to the ground terminal.

2) Output to spindle- this is the 3 phase power that the VFD sends to the spindle. Connect shielded cable of at least 14 ga wire to terminals U V and W. This wire will terminate to the plug at the spindle. Solder these. Don't connect the shield (the braided wire that surrounds the other wires) at the spindle end. It connects to ground back at the VFD. If your spindle rotates the wrong direction, that is if FWD makes it spin CCW instead of CW, you can just reverse a pair of wires going to the VFD and it will change the rotation direction.

3) Connect ground- It appears that your ground is terminal E. I'd verify that with a meter- when the VFD is on, this terminal should not measure any + volts measured to chasis ground. Run a wire to this terminal and connect it to the shield from the spindle cable and on to your systems common ground point and to the neutral wire of your input voltage.

Control connections. I use the C6 speed control board to take output from Mach 3 and create the 0-10V the VFD needs to control speed. I'm not that familiar with the C11, so I can't comment. But you can also wire the spindle 'manually' so that it works without the speed control thru Mach 3. On your VFD, if you connect a 10K trim pot to the +10V terminal and ground (E), and send its variable output to the VI terminal. Change this variable resistor should provide speed control. You can use this to control speed, and the RUN or Start control on the VFD to start and stop the spindle.

CONNECT AN EMERGENCY STOP to this before you use it. Put this near your operating position or somewhere safe so you can stop the spindle quickly without software. I put an in-line switch with a big red stop paddle that disconnects power to the VFD. There may be a better way, but be sure to have some method NOT related to software to shut off the spindle.

Finally, you may need to program the VFD to get it to run right. I don't know how yours is configured from the factory, or how you will use the spindle. But the descriptions of the programming start on page 26. I can tell you how mine is programmed, but I can't say for certain that is what you will need.

Well, that will get you started. Let me know what kind of speed control board, and what you are using the spindle for, and I'll try to help you get that part connected. If it were me, I'd first get to where you can get the spindle to turn on and off at the VFD panel, and use a variable resistor to control the speed. AND install an E-stop of some kind.

Oh, and get some water cooling connected. Do you have a method in mind?

I'm using mine all the time, and it works just fine. Its a struggle to get it running, but it does work well.

Good luck with your project. I'll try to monitor here to answer questions if I can.

Wayne C
White Salmon, Washington State

[dacostad]

Hi Wayne - Thanks!

Yes I am using single phase 220v (USA).

The C11 board contains the C6 board functionality so I you could tell me what the VFD to C6 board connections are that would be very useful.

If you could tell me the VFD settings that you had to set, that would also be usefull. I am using my Spindle on a CNC Router that I am building.

My spindle is the 1.5kw air cooled version so I don't have to worry about water cooling.

Thanks again for the help

David

[javeria]

Hi David - look here (http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23835#post23835) for programming HINTS -

[dacostad]

Bad news, I just smoked the spindle :(

I went through the VFD functions and they looked okay but I missed PD142 which is the rated current of the motor and it was set to 7 (I assume Kw) and this is a 1.5kw motor so I assume it should have been 1.5.

Do we know how many poles the motor is? (PD143), Also for PD144 Rated Motor Revolutions for this motor it is 24,000?

David

[dacostad]

I just did some more checking, just looking at the motor specs shown on the seller Ebay shop and it looks like the motor is 6amps, also the PD142 function is set in amps. The VFD was set to 7amps, would that difference be enough to blow the spindle?

David

[dacostad]

Also before the spindle when up in smoke I saw AOL (I think that is correct) appear on the VFD display briefly - not sure what that means and there is no reference in the manual.

David

[javeria]

did you blow it on the first connect? think you can claim the warranty on the spindle!

[Gerald D]

The current setting on the VFD is a current limit. The VFD cannot pump that current unless there is a load (or fault) on the motor. The setting value is the most that the VFD would be willing supply under load (or fault) conditions.

If you were heavily loading the spindle and the VFD limit was set too high, then you may have overloaded the motor and the VFD did not limit you. That is not claimable under warranty. If you loaded the spindle and did not have a cooling system running, that also isn't claimable under warranty.

However, if you had simply connected for the first time, and switched on with no load, I guess only a faulty motor winding would create the smoke. The VFD current setting doesn't help in the case of faulty windings.

[dacostad]

It turns out that unless you set the VFD to more than 100hz the fan on the air cooled does not start. I had left it at 50Hz to start figuring it did not matter for first test, but I was wrong and it overheated in minutes.

As far as I can see the manual does not say anything about this.

Anyway I am sending it back to the seller and he is sending me a new one.

David

[WFY]

I just did the same thing. The settings that have to match the motor Hz rating on the Huanyang VFD HY02D223B are
PD003 Main Frequency 0.00~400.00 Hz set to 400.00
PD004 Base Frequency 0.01~400.00 Hz set to 400.00
PD005 Max Operating Frequency 50.00~400.00 Hz set to 400.00
to match the rating on the 2.2Kw spindle. I changed these to this setting and the spindle runs up fine. My concern is that the VFD is rated at 50Hz +/- 5Hz on the primary side and North America is 60Hz. Electronics may be ok with this. Maybe someone with more knowledge can shed some light on this. The supplier is going to replace the spindle for me as well.

[waynec]

That smoke is supposed to stay inside the spindle. I hope you can get it replace, and I really hope it wasn't something I advised you to do, or left out of my advice.

Here's some info on how to connect the speed control to your VFD.

The VFD needs two things in order for Mach 3 to control speed.
1) ON/Off and/or direction control. The M3 command in Mach 3 outputs a voltage on a pin you specify in Ports/Pins. This voltage triggers the relay on the C6/C11 board. When this relay is engaged, it completes the circuit in the VFD that turns the spindle on. The VFD provides a 24V source on the DRV terminal. So, connect 24V from the DRV terminal to the C11 relay terminal for CW, and then connect the relay teminal to the FOR terminal on the VFD. This will allow Mach 3 to turn the spindle off and on in the CW direction.

2) Speed control- the C11 should provide a 0-10V output controlled by Mach 3. If you need help getting this setup let me know. If you have the 0-10V you need, you just connect this output from the C11 board to the VI terminal on the VFD. Verify that this is positive voltage in the range from 0-10V, and that it changes when you change speed in your control software.

You may also have to change the program settings for control of the VFD. Mine defaults to manual speed control from the VFD panel. To use the VI input you'll need to program the VFD to accept speed control from the VI input. I think this is PD001, and the setting is likely to be 1, external terminals.

This should get the speed control working. You'll need to adjust the trim pot on the C11 board so that the max speed on your spindle happens at 10V. Just use the software to set speed to the max, maybe 22K rpm or whatever. At this max speed, adjust the trimpot so that the voltage out is 10V.

If you need help getting the software to give the correct signals for speed control let me know.

Good luck with this!

Wayne C

[dacostad]

Thanks Wayne.

Yes they are cross shipping me a new one, I also ordered the 2.2Kw water cooled version so I will need to make a new mount for that.

Here is the mount I made for the 1.5kw air cooled version

[waynec]

Daviid
Your spindle mount is a thing of beauty. Did you cut that yourself? My CNC is not stout enough to cut alum (at least I'm to chicken to try it). I cut one out of phenolic, and before long I'll install that. It should work. I keep a list of upgrade ideas, and when things slow down I work on the CNC upgrades.

Are you using Mach 3? Do you need help gettting this set up to work with your spindle?

But I do know how to get Mach 3 configured for the VFD, and I'm happy to help.

W

[dacostad]

Hi Wayne,

Yes I cut it myself using my highly modified Sherline Mill.

I may well need your help with the Mach 3 setup so any information will be gratefully accepted.

David

[dacostad]

Having now got my 2.2kw spindle running okay, I am now working on interfacing the speed and on/off control to Mach 3.

First I am working on the speed, I have set and confirmed that I am getting 10v out of the analog connection on my CNC4PC C11 card and it responds to changeing the spindle speed on Mach 3, however when I connect it to the VFD with the 0-10v going to the VI connector and the ground going to the ACM connector and setting PD002 to 1, I get no change in speed. Have I connected it wrong to the VFD or is there other settings in the VFD I have to change?

Thanks

David

[waynec]

Well congrats on getting to this point. You are really pretty close to being ready to roll.

I don't have the manual PDF anymore, so I can't really tell you if any other programming needs to be changed. Point me to the pdf and I'll take a look.

But you might back up a step and see if the VFD can vary its speed without the speed control. By that I mean, if you test the speed control at the VFD with a potentiometer and it varies the speed, you'll know that the connections are correct, and that the speed control circuitry is OK.

If I recall from the manual when I read it, the VFD wants a 10K variable resistor to control speed. But I can't recall what terminals provide the voltage. In your manual the diagram that shows the connections to the VFD will show the VC input for the voltage speed control input. It will show a common for that circuit. It should also show a terminal that supplies 10 or 12 V. That's where you get the voltage to use with the variable resistor (sorry, potentiometer). Connect the variable resistor so that the center terminal provides a POSITIVE voltage that varies when you turn the knob. This is what connects to the VC input. If that works, I bet you its something to do with either the spindle ON OFF circuit, or there is some other programming switch we need to throw.

Onward! If you can point me to the manual, I'll try to be more helpful.

Wayne

[renraku]

Hi, i need of a suggestion: what is the correct wiring from PMDX-122 to the inverter, is mach3 that changes speed to the spindle ?

[liaoh75]

Hi Renraku, There is a relay on the PMDX-122 that will switch on the router. It will switch up to 10A if I remember correctly. I use it to tell my inverter to power on my Chinese spindle. The PMDX-122 itself does not regulate the speed. You will need to acquire a separate circuit for speed control through Mach. It will mimic the 0-10v to your inverter or VFD. I was about to go that route, but ended up going with a variable resister so I can dial in the correct speed by ear. It works much better for me. Look at your VFD manual to set this. You will need to buy the correct potentiometer or variable resister for the application. The specs should be in your VFD manual. Good luck Renraku!

[renraku]

thanks

[joepardy]

Waynec,

Following up on your connections to the c6 board, can you clarify for me the exact connection to the speed control. The analog output connection on the C6 is labeled GND and 0-10V. On the VFD, I connect the 0-10V to VI. Is the GND side connected to ACM? Please advise. THANKS

[joepardy]

Update:

For those that are interested, I thought I would post my spindle setup and some of the problems that I ran into. I am converting from a Milwaukee router to a spindle, but because it is a production system, I have to do a lot of testing before I can do the final installation. As of right this minute, I have not mounted the spindle or connected the water-cooling so I cannot test for any signal interference. I have tested the wiring, electrical connections, VFD, and spindle From what I can tell, they are operating correctly.

I have attached a PDF drawing showing the connections between the VFD, Spindle and the control boards. On my system, I am using a PMDX-122 to drive a CNC4PC C6 board to control the Spindle On relay as well as controlling the speed.

I purchased the Keling KL-VFD22 VFD and KL-2200 Spindle – but from everything that I read, it is identical to the Huanyang HY02D223B VFD and 2.2KW Chinese Spindle.

I hate to admit it, but the first problem that I had with the VFD was providing the proper power. I used a 240V Single Phase double pole breaker, wired it to an EMI filter, passed it through a 2-pole switch and connected it to the R & S leads of the VFD. Flipped the power on and nothing happened. I tested the power and it appeared to be correct (120VAC between each hot and the neutral). But, upon further examination, I found that on my breaker box, the 120 hot legs are not in alternating positions. Occasionally, the same 120 circuit is located in consecutive slots … so instead of supplying 240 VAC, I was supplying two identical 120VAC circuits. Moved the breaker down a slot and the VFD powered up.

I used a shielded 4 conductor #12 wire (wrapped around and through a 5” ferrite toroidial core) between the VFD and spindle. However, I soon found that the wire was too large to solder to the spindle fitting. So, I soldered a short #18 gauge pigtail to the spindle fitting and used a terminal block to splice the cables together. As a side note, Keling informed me that a #16 or #18 gauge wire is adequate between the VFD and spindle.

Setting up the VFD introduced a new set of problems. With regards to the PDxxx parameters, I only changed a few of the factory defaults. The factory sets PD004 (base spindle frequency) & PD005 (maximum spindle frequency) to 50Hz. The 2.2Kw spindle is 400 Hz so those two parameters had to be changed. The VFD uses external control (0-10V) to control the speed with 0=OFF and 10=24,000rpm. However, when I hooked everything up, my spindle ran at only about 10% of the rated speed when controlled by the CNC4PC board. It ran at rated speed when the settings were put directly into the VFD. I verified the voltage of the control signals and did not find any issues.

After an extensive amount of reading and testing, I came upon parameter PD072 that is labeled in the manual as “Higher Analog Frequency”. It turns out that this parameter controls the range that the 0-10V control voltage operates in. So, if it is set to 50Hz (the default), then when the voltage is +10V, the frequency is set to 50Hz. Once I changed the parameter to 400Hz, the spindle operated correctly within 0-400Hz range.

I included the PDxxx parameters that I changed on the wiring diagram.

Well, that’s it for now … hopefully someone else will find this information helpful.

[Kenrbass]

Joe, thanks for the info.

I have one comming with the same stlye fvd.

I went with the 3kw air cooled, but the vfd looks identical. Waiting for ups. lol

[AdamHeard]

Sorry to bring up such an old thread, but I'm having trouble with the same 2.2 kW keling spindle.

When we try to start it, it just stutters and won't move. If we flick it during this time it will spin up to full speed and operate properly. It's just not starting correctly.

Andy advise?

[KenC]

keling can't provide you tech support?

[bradm]

That's a classic symptom of a three phase motor that is only receiving two phases. I'm surprised you aren't getting a VFD fault. Disconnect at the spindle, and check the continuity of the three phases at the spindle - you should get the same ohm reading across each of the three possible pairs of the three wires. If that passes, the spindle is okay, so reconnect at the spindle, and do the same check with the wires disconnected at the VFD, where you will probably find one wire that doesn't run through.

[AdamHeard]

That's a classic symptom of a three phase motor that is only receiving two phases. I'm surprised you aren't getting a VFD fault. Disconnect at the spindle, and check the continuity of the three phases at the spindle - you should get the same ohm reading across each of the three possible pairs of the three wires. If that passes, the spindle is okay, so reconnect at the spindle, and do the same check with the wires disconnected at the VFD, where you will probably find one wire that doesn't run through.

To understand you correctly, you're saying measure continuity to see that U, V and W are properly connected?

[bradm]

Actually, disconnect U,V,W, and measure the pairs of wires. If the resistance doesn't match (or likely, you find one wire that measures open), you know you have a problem. You want to confirm that the problem doesn't exist inside the spindle casing (in the windings), in which case the spindle is toast.

[AdamHeard]

Actually, disconnect U,V,W, and measure the pairs of wires. If the resistance doesn't match (or likely, you find one wire that measures open), you know you have a problem. You want to confirm that the problem doesn't exist inside the spindle casing (in the windings), in which case the spindle is toast.

So measure the resistance of each input pin of the spindle to ground on the spindle, or measure the resistance between of all the possible pair combinations of the three input pins?

[timberlinemd]

Do both. If you have continuity to ground in any of the pins your spindel is toast.

[AdamHeard]

Thanks for your help!

When checking resistance is became clear that it was initially wired wrong. The numbered connector provided with the spindle had numbers that were incorrect. I wired U,V and W to what I determined were the three proper legs w/ my meter and it runs great.

BTW, are these 2 or 4 pole motors?

[IN-WondeR]

A good thing that I stumbled across this thread, otherwise I would have mounted my 0-10V speed control wrong to the VFD... :)

[Gerald D]

2-pole motors